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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:36 PM
Original message
sectarian violence.

Jesus, who are these morons trying to kid? Everybody and their fucking uncle besides Dubya, Cheney, Rummy, Condi and Wolfie anticipated sectarian violence in Iraq once Saddam was gone. Christ on a cracker.

Here are a few key paragraphs from the middle of today's front page piece on the devolution of Baghdad:


American commanders say the greater violence in Baghdad does not necessarily suggest that the Iraqi forces are failing. Iraqi police officers and army soldiers are competent, the Americans say, but the explosion of sectarian violence has been of a scope and virulence that could overwhelm any army.

I dont think we moved too quickly, General Caldwell said of putting the Iraqis in charge of Baghdad. I dont think anyone could have anticipated the sectarian violence.

Some independent observers say the Americans have a point that the job of trying to secure a city of seven million people plagued by terrorism, sectarian violence and crime is a task of a magnitude that has never been attempted by a modern army. Some wonder whether the additional 7,000 American troops bound for the city will be enough.

I dont believe this operation was designed to turn a corner, said Anthony H. Cordesman, a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. I believe it was designed to stop a civil war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/world/middleeast/06ba...
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Rufus T. Firefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Or the breach of the levees.
Meaning "WE didn't expect it, even though everyone was screaming at us that it could happen."
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nytemare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Or that planes would be used as weapons.
etc. etc.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. What's amazing is that the press STILL gives them a free pass
when they spout this shit. C'mon, boys and girls of the media--it's either patently untrue, or it's an admission of gross incompetence. Take your pick.
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Scribe Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. What would you have the press do about it?
You want them to label the quote? Challenge the quote? What do you expect from reporters?
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. How about a tough followup question?
Edited on Sun Aug-06-06 03:47 PM by smoogatz
Like, you know, x, y, and z did, in fact, anticipate exactly this situation. Why didn't you?

On edit: Of course, that would require reporters to actually be versed in the subjects they're reporting on. Maybe that's asking too much, bless their hearts.
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Scribe Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. You don't know many reporters do you?
Most are likely more versed in the topic being covered than you. And, most almost never get a follow-up question with a general.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I know a few. Generally they're harried, deadline-driven
and neither all that smart nor all that well-informed. They've got degrees from journalism schools, fer chrissakes. The few times I've been interviewed, the reporters in question have asked mostly uninteresting questions and then misquoted or misrepresented my answers. I assume this is more or less the case whether the interviewee is a poet (like me) or a general or a president. In fact, my experience as a news junkie bears this out. I assume you're a reporter of some sort, and feel it's your responsibility to defend your colleagues. Defend away, if you can. But really, don't you think the media are complicit in much of what's wrong with this country right now?
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Scribe Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Is your poetry complicit with what is wrong with America?
What about your postings here on DU? You are part of the media. Your submissions to the general discourse are no more complicit with what is wrong with this country than ANY other submission anywhere or anytime by anybody.

Like so many other critics of the press, you may have fallen into a mental trap concerning the media. The trap is in the mistaken belief that something like objectivity or fairness is a constitutional obligation of the media. Maybe you think reporters and columnists have a moral obligation to the truth. No they don't, not any more than poets do.

If organizations or individuals choose to set themselves up as being objective, it's up to you to judge their degree of failure. Nobody is always objective, fair and un mistaken. You'll find one organization to be more reliable than the rest. Some reporters will strike you as repulsively stupid or biased. Although your posts here evidence an ego willing to belittle people because of what they do or studied, you may even find a single standout reporter who meets your exalted measure. It doesn't matter. The point is 'the media' is plural and refers to a nearly infinite spectrum of offerings.

So no, the media in all its facets is not complicit with what's wrong with America. It is America. All the depth of reporting you want is available. The particular worldview you favor is available. The media is responsible for what America has become to the same degree that America is responsible for what the media has become.





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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Oh, I get it.
We're going to redefine "media"--the word that most of use to describe big-market print journalism and televsion news--to include art, the Democratic Underground, and all of America. Sorry, I'm not buying it. You claim that the media is America, but America's views on the war and the Bush administration are nowhere represented in the corporate media, which pretends to the detriment of our democracy not to have a right-wing bias. The depth of reporting I want IS available, in places like the New Yorker and Rolling Stone--but not much in the NYT, seldom in the WaPo, and pretty much never on TV, except for the BBC--and they don't do much reporting on American politics. Your theory is that the media are stupid, lazy, cowardly and corrupt because Americans are stupid, lazy, cowardly and corrupt. Bullshit. You want to know why newspaper subscriptions are down, why most Americans think journalists are a notch above Congress but several notches below bedbugs and spirochetes on the evolutionary scale? You want to know why more and more Americans now get their news online? Because you and your buddies have completely lost sight of what it is that you're supposed to be doing--and your post above is as clear an indication of that as I've ever seen.
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Scribe Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Actually, you've missed the point completely.
You can't describe the media as stupid, lazy, cowardly and corrupt because you cannot justify such a generalization. It is without meaning. I'm not stupid, certainly not corrupt and a lazy person could never make it in my business.

The New Yorker is every bit as much a part of the media as is the New York Times. They differ in their circulation and audience, deliberately. Surely you understand that Fox news is trying to attract people not likely to read Rolling Stone.

Your simplistic view of the media is too common. The right wing screams bias! The left wing screams bias! Bullshit! Most of the screamers, you included I think, wouldn't understand objectivity. You want some General who says something stupid to be taken to task. And, because the officer was allowed to express his stupid opinion, the entire American media is populated by right wing sell outs.

Well, it just isn't true fella. And that general has the right to say stupid things. We are obligated to report his statement, I think, but not obligated to analyze it.
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. No...
...it actually means, "Whaddya fuckin' stoopid? OF COURSE we knew this would happen, but we had other priorities - ie, power, bloodlust and $$$"...
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
35. Or that Bush would be such a horrible president.
Oops...we predicted THAT one with 100% accuracy, too.
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Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. 
...people flying planes into buildings."

Sound familiar?
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. historical tactic used by those in control --
repeat a slogan, a meme, a jingo, a phrase -- over and over again as if it is teh truth.

a know that in the bottom of your{not you} black and rotten heart that nationalism and fear will trump reason.
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Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Must be an echo... the use of that particular phrase is becoming farcical.
"I don't think anyone could have anticipated" - a clear marker that whatever statement follows will be utter bullshit.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. I clicked in just the comedy myself
These folks just got a be jokers, like what else could it be :shrug:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Rumsfeld: "we had anticipated" ethnic cleansing and religious strife
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20031120-...

<snip>

But if you think about it, the big problem the last time was ethnic cleansing and religious strife. Thats not occurred. Weve not seen that. We had anticipated it.
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. The GOP does not have talking points..they have 'fill in the blanks'
No one could have anticipated_______(define current horror)

If only we had________(insert something from the Patriot Act, Signing statements, or Unitary Presidential decree)

Everything is_______ (Hunky Dory (make sure to use your own words to define Hunky Dory))

If Bill Clinton had/had not_____________(circle one and then give lame excuse)

pResident bush has___________(insert something that sounds agressive)

I cannot imagine them not imagining ANYTHING EVER..it is as if they have had a imagininationectomy!
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. PR people for the Military
I know because my Husband is one of them, are given stale non conforming statements to such questions. Give the man a beer with out the uniform and I'm willing to bet you get a whole new perspective about what "HE" thinks.

He's not allowed to say what he thinks, only regurgitates what the PR books state is the proper thing to say.

I know because my husband has to often squelch his own opinion and just give the standard non conformist typical military response. Only retired Generals and higher ups can say what they think on a personal level.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. They weren't looking at DU or lots of other sites on the Internets...
...or they would have seen those that did anticipate the sectarian violence.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. Certainly not the world's most powerful "C" student, General. But you?
Surely *you've* cracked the odd volumn of history. I say you're a liar. Junior didn't know there were sects before the war, but I'd wager that the War College had a leg up on him!
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. Bush has appointed loyal nincompoops at the highest levels
throughout our government. The military will need years to recover from the brain drain.

Many, MANY people forecast the chaotic quagmire that is Iraq.
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yorkiemommie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. hmmmm......

they could have asked any of the little old lady teachers at my school and they would have told you. I will never ever forget one of them saying precisely this on the eve of the invasion.

There were millions who said the same thing, whose voices were ignored, their opinions taunted, their reputations smeared.
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WePurrsevere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Horse puckey! If that is true then they ignored history & are damn fools.
Edited on Sun Aug-06-06 02:13 PM by WePurrsevere
n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. LOL! The No Imagination Bush Government!
And this from the same fishwrap that reported 20 DIFFERENT SECTARIAN GROUPS BEFORE WE INVADED IRAQ FOR NO EFFEN REASON!

:rofl:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. More accurate is:
"I don't think anyone could've anticipated that we'd actually have to govern."
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. "I don't think" period = the bush motto.nt
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Lusted4 Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. Delete n/t
Edited on Sun Aug-06-06 02:37 PM by Lusted4
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. like a broken record. At least get something fresh!
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. Of course the operation was designed to turn a corner:
turning corners is what the U.S. has been doing repeatedly in Iraq -- after all, turning corners is essential to going around in circles.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. Someone needs to make up a list
Edited on Sun Aug-06-06 03:04 PM by Crunchy Frog
of all the lines from the administration that begin with "I dont think anyone could have anticipated..."

Just off the top of my head, the breach of the levies, the use of planes as weapons by terrorists, the emergence of an Iraqi insurgency, and the sectarian violence in Iraq.

Which ones have I missed? How many more times are we going to hear those words? :banghead:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. The usual military CYA double-talk.
Those bastards couldn't tell the truth about their asses being on fire.
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
24. WTF?
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
29. rotflmao!!! Gee let's see who coulda anticipated this...
James Webb, former Sec. of Navy under Ronald Reagan, Decorated Marine Veteran

"Do we really want to occupy Iraq for the next 30 years? In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. Nations such as China can only view the prospect of an American military consumed for the next generation by the turmoil of the Middle East as a glorious windfall."
http://www.sftt.org/article09302002a.html

Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni, former Head of Central Command for U.S.

"It's pretty interesting that all the generals see it the same way, and all the others who have never fired a shot, and are hot to go to war, see it anotherWe are about to do something that will ignite a fuse in this region that we will rue the day we ever started."

Hawks in the Bush administration may be making deadly miscalculations on Iraq, says Gen. Anthony Zinni, Bush's Middle East envoy.

"I'm not sure which planet they live on"
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/10/17/zinni

General William Odom, former head of the National Security Agency

"Right now, the course we're on, we're achieving Bin Laden's ends. I've never seen it so bad between the office of the secretary of defense and the military. There's a significant majority believing this is a disaster. The two parties whose interests have been advanced have been the Iranians and al-Qaeda. Bin Laden could argue with some cogency that our going into Iraq was the equivalent of the Germans in Stalingrad. They defeated themselves by pouring more in there. Tragic."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/091704Y.shtml

Col. Mike Turner (ret), Schwarzkopf's personal briefing officer during Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm

The uniformed Joint Staff in the Pentagon strongly opposed this plan early on...The uniformed Joint Staff was overridden, yet in so many horrifying ways this operation resembles Somalia, not Desert Storm...Perhaps we can pull this off, but here's a far worse scenario that's at least as likely...Photos of American soldiers amid landscapes of Iraqi civilian bodies blanket the world press which aligns unanimously against the US. The US is condemned by NATO and the UN...The war ends within a few weeks, but the crisis deepens...
http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/transcripts/2003/ma...

Some people are just too fucking stupid for words...
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. US Army; Strategic Implications of Intercommunal Warfare in Iraq
"The scope of this monograph is confined to the Middle East, which is where Iraqi ethnic and sectarian strife will almost certainly have the greatest implications for regional stability and U.S. foreign and military policy. If Iraqi violence erupts along religious/sectarian and ethnic lines, this conflict will have thunderous echoes throughout the area."
http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume3...

Yeah gee, no one could have anticipated such a thing.





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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Don't forget Tommy Franks!!
He retired like, fifteen seconds after the invasion was complete.

Got his Medal of Freedom.

rode into sunset laughing/


:rofl:
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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!



Seriously, this is getting comical.
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