The Beautiful Lala RawRaw ends the Gibson Discussion.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larisa-alexandrovna/mirror-mirror-the-passi_b_26620.html

Jeebus, does she ever. What a piece. A must-read.

[thepurpose]

1. Thank you much. For linking to that it made my day. She puts all of it

context.

[Maestro]

2. Biting

and good. Thanks for posting.

[enough]

3. An amazing piece.

I hope everyone will read the whole thing -- long and wide-ranging. A new view of Ms. Alexandrovna. Yes, it is a must read.

snip>

Gibson is now being covered to such an extent and in such a way as to make him seem a monster, a rare creature of hate in a sea of tolerance. But the reality is far more disturbing and Gibson is hardly the monstrosity or the face of evil and hatred when one considers his chosen profession, an actor and his statements on Judaism, which are rare and far between. In fact, he appears to be far more inclined to conceal his views until he has consumed large amounts of liquor.

Compare that with a "crusade" ushered in by the Bush administration against Muslims, the rampant racism against African Americans and the inexcusable and criminal - in my opinion - failure of the federal government to show any concern for New Orleans and the poor, elderly, and ill who were unable to leave.

snip>

I spent part of my childhood behind the Soviet Iron Curtain, where the right wing (no, the Soviets were Communists in name only) machine focused on my heritage before I was out of the womb. My birth certificate says JEW in big letters across it, and this document would have to be shown no matter what I did or where I went, thereby always making me a clear target, even as a child, of the blind hatred propagated by government-sponsored propaganda.

I remember vividly what was done to me, even if I still don't fully comprehend why it was done.

I remember being humiliated and made to feel apart in kindergarten by my own teachers who also happened to be responsible for feeding us. The most vivid memory I have from this time surrounds food and perhaps explains why to this day I have a problem with eating -- namely, I don't eat.

We were all poor, every Soviet citizen was poor, and the government sponsored meal of the day was what helped our families keep their children from starving. At home we would have soup at supper, but at school we would have a big meal that included meat. At lunch time everyone would sit and our teachers would serve us, all of us, except for me. I did not tell my parents for fear that my mother would complain and then be taken away by Soviet authorities. But my mother noticed that I was losing weight and she asked me over and over until I told her that "no" I was not given food at school.

snip>

[chimpymustgo]

5. K & R. Excellent piece. Great (sad) historical background.

-snip-

I take seriously Mel Gibson's reaching out to the Jewish community and requesting help to understand why he feels the way he does. I accept his apology as well. Ann Coulter has never apologized. George Bush has never apologized. Yet when someone is brave enough to apologize and ask for help in understanding what drives their anger, we shun them and dissect them in a public execution.

True racists don't care enough to reach out. They can be bought, but they will never apologize.

So while the rest of the media runs wild with Gibson the "hate monger" and in doing so ignores actual news, and actual bigotry and hatred in America, I for one would like to issue Gibson a formal invitation to visit me or my family any time, to sit with us and hear our stories, to learn something of us, who we are, and what we believe, and to perhaps allow us learn from him the nature of his views. In the meantime, I will be covering news, and I will be covering such issues as racism. I hope that others will join me. I also hope other Jews will join me in extending an invitation to Gibson. Tolerance breeds tolerance. It is really that simple.

-snip-

[BlueEyedSon]

4. It's a beautiful piece, and another indictment of our broken media

if you are interested in just how broken it is:

http://www.orwellrollsinhisgrave.com/

[malaise]

6. My take exactly

Compare that with a "crusade" ushered in by the Bush administration against Muslims, the rampant racism against African Americans and the inexcusable and criminal - in my opinion - failure of the federal government to show any concern for New Orleans and the poor, elderly, and ill who were unable to leave.----
Mel talks - the US and Israel kill.

[jobycom]

11. Mine, too, every single word. It's why I get so upset here at the hatred

of everything anyone disagrees with--actors, chefs, southerners, Christians, even Republicans with the constant nicknames. It's all the same. Hatred is all the same. There are too many Democrats who feel that the only difference between us and BushCo are who we should direct our hatred at. They aim it at Lieberman and Coulter and Christians instead of at Muslims and liberals and gays, and they feel superior. Hatred is all the same. The true solution to it isn't to hate the other side, it is to oppose all who practice it, to always strive to overcome it.

She nails it perfectly in this article, and the difference between hatred and ignorant ramblings. The solution to Mel Gibson's drunken tirade isn't to hate him, blacklist him, censor him, and end his career in the hopes of driving him to suicide, it is to, as she does, to counter his arguments and try to show him the better way. DOn't throw him off a cliff, invite him in to our side, show him where we are coming from. It's the same solution we should use for southerners, for Christians, for those we so strongly disagree with. When we try to shove them off a cliff and slam them with hateful, angry rhetoric, we just drive them away. The only way we can save this country is by reaching out to them, showing them that our way is better, that it doesn't attack them or anyone, that we are all about understanding each other and that we completely reject the hatred of the other side. The cure for hatred isn't more hatred directed at different targets. It is tolerance, understanding, even love. I never want to switch their hatred for ours. I oppose Democrats with that mentality every bit as strongly as I oppose Republicans with that mentality. We should become the party of Carter, not the party of a liberal version of Ann Coulter.

[malaise]

14. Yep, the party of Carter

is the only way to go.
Mirror Mirror - The Passion of Hypocrites is Larisa's best article to date and she's always good.

[jobycom]

16. I've never noticed her before.

I'll have to start paying attention now, I guess. That's as perfect an expression of my views, coupled with a personal perspective most of us don't have, as I've ever read.

[RagAss]

83. there's just one major difference....Mel Gibson doesn't tap our phones...

Righteous indignation against those who abuse power is not unbridled hatred.....

[jobycom]

103. Righteous indignation is not what I was refering to

Of course we should hold Republicans accountable. We can criticize their every action and even criticize the characters of those who need to be criticized. We can condemn their actions and attitudes as a party. We can point out when Britney Spears puts out a bad song or when the media fixates on her endlessly. All that can be done with righteous indignation without resorting to the pure hatred of name-calling (Repukes), dehumanizing (Chimpy--which isn't fair to chimps), misogyny (especially in the case of Ann Coulter), etc.

Hatred and righteous indignation are polar opposites. There is nothing righteous about hatred. There is also nothing productive about it.

[Misskittycat]

7. Definite must read. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

8. Stunning post. Thank you for making it available here. Larisa had me in

tears.

[Vidar]

9. Good article. Thanks for posting.

[Spazito]

10. Excellent article, thanks for posting n/t

[xchrom]

12. brilliant! -- she wants to talk about the character of america!

she gets it.

she gets that the soviets were right wing nationalists -- she gets that america has at it's soul the same
poison.

the racism, sexism the internalized fear of ''christians'' busting out at the seams against gay folk.

america has bred this fear in the bone to keep it's people under control -- and conservatives are whipping us with it every day.

oh i could go on -- but she gets it and that's the point.

now lets fuckin TALK about it -- shackle the right with it because it's theirs.

[jobycom]

13. Every Democrat must read this. Every one. nt

[Straight Shooter]

15. It's amazing when you discover what drives a person to change the world.

Luckily for the world, Lala wants to change it for the better.

:thumbsup:

[sevenleagueboots]

17. What dosen't kill you....defines you......

......a most appropriate post. Say goodnite, Mel.

[ms liberty]

18. K&R n/t

[jonnyblitz]

19. excellent piece!!

thanks!

[robbedvoter]

20. K&R. One objection: it's dishonest to call the Soviets "right wing"

As dishonest as it is from the RW to call Hitler a "leftie".
The autoritarians in the USSR took power based on a left doctrine - and then pushed it to extremes - to hold it against a population who no longer supported it.
It is a good lesson from history that tyranny can come from the left as from the right - from anywhere really, once democracy is broken.
But, hell, yeah, mel is hardly the poster boy for hate speech (although he's not entirely miscast either, let's face it)

[undergroundpanther]

31. On the political spectrum

When one nears totalitarianism left and right merge.
It is impossible to see where left policies begin to look like rightwing policies. To me Hitler and the Soviet stalinists were left AND right ,totalitarianism. I have warned of this blending on DU before.I see the blending of left and right happening in America. on the right and the left.As in "democratic authoritarianism" .


"f fascism began in a deliberate attempt to blend a "left"-wing egalitarianism with a "right"-wing authoritarianism, this political movement inevitably ended by giving a new meaning to such concepts as "community" and "authority." Fascism sought a principle of community that could serve as an alternative to the international working class community (a community, it should be noted, that defines itself in its struggle against the bourgeoisie) envisioned by socialism, and as my quotation from Mussolini suggests, fascism found such an alternative principle in the nation, as it defines itself in its struggle against national enemies. Yet the "volk" like the "proletariat" remains an abstract concept: no one can see "Italy" or "Germany." Therefore fascism created a concrete embodiment of the nation in the person of an all-wise leader ("Mussolini is always right," said a sign on the wall of every Italian classroom) and in the organizational structure of an all-powerful party. Fascism, remembering with acute nostalgia the ecstatic self-surrender of life in the trenches, celebrated the power of the leader and the submission of the loyal party member to the leader’s will as ends in themselves. Yet while this pronounced authoritarian strain may seem to mark fascism as a "right"-wing political phenomenon, it seems to me important to distinguish between fascist authoritarianism and genuine conservatism. For neither Mussolini nor Hitler claimed power on the strength either of a divine right to rule (as kings have been wont to do) or an inherent superiority in their "blood" (as hereditary oligarchies generally do). Rather both fascist leaders presented themselves as "men of the people." Thus the person of the leader becomes, in fascism, a concrete resolution of the opposing aspirations within the movement: he is at once the "great commoner," the "divine average" and the "man apart", a lonely, heroic incarnation of pure will. In this respect Mussolini’s description of fascism as "democratic authoritarianism" seems, if apparently paradoxical, nevertheless accurate."

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/m_r/pound/fascism.htm

[robbedvoter]

46. They do eventually merge in methods and results. However, left and right

start with very different purposes - right wing wants the dismantling of the government, the taking over by corporations of any public function of a government. Privatization and deregularion are their battle cry.
Communists want to use the government to make sure the national wealth is distributed equitably, and eventually purports to determine centrally what everyone's needs are (from everyone according to their ability, to everyone according to their needs is the battle cry of the extreme left).
It's important to note that both those goals are unhealthy to a democracy and will lead to totalitarianism.
But it's different interests leading to it - left and right are opposite, only extremism is indistiguishable.

[rosesaylavee]

21. Spot on - She kicks the discussion up

several notches and defines the problem in a clearer context of what is acceptable hatred in this country.

Will be paying more attention to her future blogs. I don't think I have read her before.

[ReadTomPaine]

22. Perhaps her best piece.

Well done!

[burythehatchet]

23. Very nice

she has a sharp mind.

[mmonk]

24. A very great read.

She is for the most part excellent anyway but this piece needs attention.

[undergroundpanther]

25. She's right

I've been scapegoated,I have a mental illness history., I am transgender,a freak among other things.But I am not a nasty person.
That article about American cultural bullying and hypocrisy reminded me of the stuff about mental illness I posted below.. Her article reminds me There are so many people broken by this brutal bigoted culture. Broken by bullies,because of race,gender disabilities,being intelligent,the list is endless..we are a nation of shattered souls..And when a person has an unbroken spot they defend it with hate,with denial.When one is or cultivates the appearance of being an unbroken person they tend to act like a sociopath thug crying victim to the people they've wounded as they scream for them to shut up!
Humanity is a sick cesspool of abuse and insecurity,pain and loneliness,love hunger, and denial runs so deep.

No wonder the Earth is dying from the effects of human activities/abuse. No wonder a rapture idea has captured so many narcissistic,suicidal homicidal people who call it religion.We are addicted to feeding our greed,to acquisition,to hate and domination and victim bashing so much we will destroy the Earth in pursuit of it,and that is friggin feel good grotesque.It's sad the human brain has a chemical feel good reward for acts of vengeance and hate. Why oh why are brains so perverse? That hate gets some of us high?
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8605
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3873036


To be a mental patient is to be stigmatized, ostracized, socialized, patronized, psychiatrized.

To be a mental patient is to have everyone controlling your life but you. You’re watched by your shrink, your social worker, your friends, your family. And then you’re diagnosed as paranoid.

To be a mental patient is to live with the constant threat and possibility of being locked up at any time, for almost any reason.

To be a mental patient is to live on $82 a month in food stamps, which won’t let you buy Kleenex to dry your tears. And to watch your shrink come back to his office from lunch, driving a Mercedes Benz.

To be a mental patient is to take drugs that dull your mind, deaden your senses, make you jitter and drool and then you take more drugs to lessen the “side effects.”

To be a mental patient is to apply for jobs and lie about the last few months or years, because you’ve been in the hospital, and then you don’t get the job anyway because you’re a mental patient. To be a mental patient is not to matter.

To be a mental patient is never to be taken seriously.

To be a mental patient is to be a resident of a ghetto, surrounded by other mental patients who are as scared and hungry and bored and broke as you are.

To be a mental patient is to watch TV and see how violent and dangerous and dumb and incompetent and crazy you are.

To be a mental patient is to be a statistic.

To be a mental patient is to wear a label, and that label never goes away, a label that says little about what you are and even less about who you are.

To be a mental patient is to never to say what you mean, but to sound like you mean what you say.

To be a mental patient is to tell your psychiatrist he’s helping you, even if he is not.

To be a mental patient is to act glad when you’re sad and calm when you’re mad, and to always be “appropriate.”

To be a mental patient is to participate in stupid groups that call themselves therapy. Music isn’t music, its therapy; volleyball isn’t sport, it’s therapy; sewing is therapy; washing dishes is therapy. Even the air you breathe is therapy and that’s called “the milieu.”

To be a mental patient is not to die, even if you want to — and not cry, and not hurt, and not be scared, and not be angry, and not be vulnerable, and not to laugh too loud — because, if you do, you only prove that you are a mental patient even if you are not.

And so you become a no-thing, in a no-world, and you are not.

written in 1984 by Rae Unzicker, a long-term advocate against the use of force and coercion of any kind.
http://writhesafely.wordpress.com/2006/0...

And this sounds like THIS..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1513557

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

26. WOW! She really puts things into perspective. Great article!

:thumbsup: :applause:

[scisyhp1]

27. I cannot let that stand

That was a great and insightful article overall, which did not have to have its credibility
demaged by so obviously made-up story about a Soviet school cafeteria. I too grew up in the
USSR as a jew and may comment on its veracity from personal experience. Anyone who went to
school in USSR will tell that it is completely inconcivable that anything like that would happen
there. Besides, maybe all Soviet citizens were poor by US standards, by they were never
hungry. This story is entirely extraneous to the subject and the point of the commentary
and I only hope it is a result of some childhood memory failure on Larisa's part, rather than
a deliberate looseness with facts for dramatic effect.

[undergroundpanther]

28. In America

Kindergarten school teachers at public schools aren't supposed to beat students in nice neighborhoods.

I got my ass beat by my teacher. Nothing was done about it. The denial kicked in.


Anyways you never know about a persons situation.A bigot teacher can do what she will to students sometimes.Regardless of what is supposed to be. Maybe no one you knew went hungry. But you cannot speak for every child in russia or for her. She may be telling the truth,her truth which is from her own experiences. Alot of shit you think cannot happen goes on hidden from view,when bullies are in control and she was reluctant to tell anyone out of fear already.So how can you know what happened to her were you in her class? Did you see her papers or not? Bullies do their crimes where they most feel they will get away with it.She may have had an anti semite teacher. I have heard from other russians escaping the soviet bloc about the antisemitism there.

[scisyhp1]

35. I wasn't in her class,

but even if her story has a grain of truth in it, which I doubt, the way it is presented
is still journalistically fraudulent. It is pictured as something very typical for USSR,
while in fact, if true, it is rare to the point of being unbelievable. There are few other
things in her recollections which raise a flag. First, Soviet birth certificate did not
say JEW in it, though it did list ethnicities of both parents, so I am assuming that's what
she meant. Second, not every child in Soviet school cafeteria was entitled to free lunch,
only those from "many-children families" which meant from families with three or more
children. I, being one of only two kids, had to buy my own lunch. Most of my classmates
entitled to this perk didn't take advantage of it though, as the quality of the cafeteria
food was indeed atrocious. I don't remember teachers serving us with food either, cafeteria
had staff for that. It sounds that she may be talking about kindergarden (3-6 y.o) where
indeed everybody was fed three meals a day by their teachers. Those were not free and
parents had to contribute a monthly fee to keep a child there. Maybe her mother was late
on a payment so they withheld the meals, I don't know but that's certainly possible. That
may also explain the memory lapse, as not too many adults have clear recollections of
that period. In any case I would be interested in hearing more details from her personally.

[lala_rawraw]

39. Whre in the Soviet Union did you grow up?

[scisyhp1]

51. Fist in Kiev, then in a small town nearby.

In the 1970s.

[lala_rawraw]

53. I was in Odessa... so we are from the same country.

When did you come over?

[lala_rawraw]

56. Sorry, i forgot to ask...

What small town? How did you come over? What was the process? Just curious

[scisyhp1]

68. What does it matter? That town's name was

and still is Ukrainka. It is about 40 km down the Dnieper from Kiev. My parents still
live there. I was a grown man when I came over in 1992. What else do you want to know?
As I said in my other post, just be careful with your facts, truth is always the most
powerful argument. That concludes my point in its entirety. Over and out.

[lala_rawraw]

73. I was curious

I also asked when you came over. I came over in the late seventies. Always nice to meet a fellow Ukrainka (and now I know you are a female).:)

As for facts, I share your opinion of truth as the most potent of arguments.

[scisyhp1]

105. You should read what others write more carefully

before getting into silly arguments. Ukrainka is a name of the small town
near Kiev where I grew up. I am a male. Just an illustration of how something
clearly and unambigously stated can be twisted in the mind of a carelessly
hasty interpretator. In this example it was inoffensive and unconsequential.
But somehow I have a feeling that jumping to baseless conclusions is your
style. Thoughtfulness and haste do not mesh well.

[lala_rawraw]

117. what is the term for a female from Ukraine?

please specify, k?

[lala_rawraw]

40. Yes, it does say Jew!!!

Don't tell me what it does or does not say mister. I have it in Russian and had to have it translated in English. I know damn well what it says!!!

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lala_rawraw]

54. Ah, no, more like moron

First, please explain why Christians (excluding Catholics)were listed as Ukrainians in the Ukraine while Jews were listed as Jews? You do know this, yes? So I am hoping you, in your expertise and personal experience can provide an explanation.

Second, please do tell us about yourself, about your life abroad. Your subject line would suggest that you are from the UK.

Third, I think your attempt at revisionism is a fascinating one, considering that you are questioning my experience. More interesting, however, is that out of the nearly 3k words I wrote in that piece, you would comment on one point and only to attempt to claim that I fabricated something. Interesting. Sad, but interesting. By the way, I don't remember my parents having a choice about changing their records. I take it your parents did? My father had to forge a birth certificate that identified him as Ukrainian, because Jews could not attend University. Are you telling me that he was simply far too stupid to simply change his background on his birth certificate? And on passports, which are separate from your birth certificate, which you have to present if you do not have authorized traveling papers, both my parents were listed as Jews. Even though both were born inside the Soviet regime. This made travel a bit of a problem for them. But I suppose they just wanted the attention, when all they had to do was simply walk in and change their status from Jew to Ukrainian and all would have been well. Silly them.

You don't know what you are talking about. Or you are purely a jerk trying to make waves. Any fool with a library card or Internet access can verify that what I am saying is true. So please spare me your "bullocks" crap. Really, don't you have something better to do or pretend to know?

Next you will be telling us that Reagan defeated Communism and that there was no anti-Semitism in the Soviet states. Please, by all means, enlighten us since you have such a grasp of facts.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

63. What's the Ukrainian word for troll? n/t

[lala_rawraw]

75. Unfortunately, I only know Russian (sadly)...

But I don't know the slavic word for troll. But now I am curious. Going to look.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlueEyedSon]

72. My Russian connection confirms that certain aspects of the story

are suspect. Coincidentally, they are consistent with the issues that scisyhp1 raises.

No question that the USSR was a bad place in which to grow up and to grow up jewish (and yes, USSR passports listed ethnicity or "race".... of which "Jewish" was one of the possible entries). But there are problems with the school lunch details.

The main point of the hypocrisy of 24x7 Mel-the-foulmouthed-sexist/racist bashing in the country that is the most racist in the world (institutionally, economically, foreign policy-wise, etc) should not be lost.... that's a good catch, lala; but then again if you understand what has happened to the media in this country, it's not much of a surprise.

See also: http://www.orwellrollsinhisgrave.com/

[lala_rawraw]

74. I must say your logic has lost me somewhere between straw man

And nonsense. If you said, for example, that when you were a child your school janitor hit you with his soggy mop, we would have only to prove that we ourselves did not experience it to show that you were lying.

By your logic, if you were hit with a soggy mop, that means all school children were hit.

If all schoolchildren were hit, and I was not hit, you must be lying. But that is a straw-man, is it not?

Wait, what am I doing even attempting this engage with someone who has no interest in anything substantive. Never mind, by all means, continue your experiments in the logic of tea bags.

ON edit, I just noticed you said your "Russian connection" and wow, that sounds all spook like. Cool

[BlueEyedSon]

82. Your retelling of unlikely, though emotionally compelling

school experiences do not help support your main thesis (which I agree with), at least in this case. And since your experience was singular and we have no witnesses, I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.

Soggy mops, straw and tea bags.... quite a metaphorical brew!

[lala_rawraw]

85. You need not take anything

Not my word, not my opinion. My thesis was that based on my background, which i gave an example of, I tend to view the concept of "racism" and "hate" in a different way. But honestly, you sound as though taking my word for something, is just far too distasteful to you. So I say again, you need not take anything. I just wonder why you are trying so hard to make it my word against your word. I already proved that your birth certificate argument was absolutely wrong. So now you latch on to something I cannot prove beyond my own experience of it. There seems to be far too much interest in finding fault, is there not?

Yes, soggy logic tends to make quite a brew.

[Garbo 2004]

81. Um, there was no "cafeteria story" in the article.

Her recollection of being a 6 yr old kindergardener was mentioned. You yourself noted that kids at that level would not be fed in the cafeteria, but by teachers, which confirms her recollection.

If you wish to call someone a liar, at least get what they actually said correct.

[lala_rawraw]

86. I know... and the

whole birth certificate nonsense... why are they trying so hard?

[scisyhp1]

108. I cannot speak for "them", but the reason I'm trying

is simple. I cannot stand dishonesty and lies. Here is one particular example.
In your essay you write: "My birth certificate says JEW in big letters across it".
You may call it little journalistic indulgence. That may fly with people who
never held a Soviet birth certificate in their hands or don't read Russian.
I can read Russian and I have a Soviet birth certificate of my own, so I call
your statement incorrect. Your Soviet birth certificate, if you indeed have one,
does not have "JEW in big letters across it". Ethnicity of the child is not stated
in any Soviet birth certificate, and those were the same all over USSR, except for
having different languages in various Republics. It stated the child's name, birthdate,
place of birth, names and ethnicities of both parents. Those data were written into
a standard document form by handwriting (not in any "big letters") and certified
by officials signature and stamp. Of course, if both parents ethnicities were
indicated as "jewish" (in small handwriting, mind you) the child had no choice
but to end up "jewish" as well. If one of the parents happened to be "Russian" or
"Ukrainian" or "Uzbek" or whatever, the child usually chose that ethnicity at
the age of 16. Very few people wanted to be "jewish" in the ex-USSR. So while there is
an element of truth in your statement - one could learn ethnicities of both parents
from a child's birth certificate, the literary dramatization of "JEW in big letters
across it" is factually incorrect. I understand that it does spice up a story nicely,
like you almost had a star of David sewn onto your pajamas or something, but honestly
nobody needed to look into birth certificate to know if a child (or any person) was
jewish - last name was enough for that in most cases.

[Beetwasher]

112. " I cannot stand dishonesty and lies. "

Then if I were you, I'd stay away from mirrors, since you are obviously full of shit.

[lala_rawraw]

62. Here you go, Google is there for you to use:

"If the applicant has a birth certificate or internal passport from the Soviet era identifying the applicant as Jewish, there is no particular reason to doubt that the applicant is Jewish. Soviet officials were not known to issue such documents to non-Jews, and having documentation identifying one as Jewish meant considerable state-sanctioned and unofficial discrimination and harassment."
http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home/opendoc.htm?tbl=RSDCOI&page=research&id=3ae6a60a2

[Me.]

64. Out Of Curiosity...

I just called two Russian friends of mine who are Jewish and were raised, as it turns out, in Odessa. As to the birth certificate, both his and his wife's says Jewish in the place denoted for nationality, regardless of the fact that they consider their nationality Russian. That classification left them open to discrimination in anything to do with the normal "progress" of a life. They came here seeking a better one.

*shadow government*

[Midlodemocrat]

32. I believe her. Your experience wasn't hers.

My child wasn't ever abused by a special needs aide, but my friend's child was. It happens.

Welcome to DU.

[AlienGirl]

78. I believe her too

I have seen enough crap happen in the American school system that this does not surprise me.

Tucker

[AlienGirl]

43. I was force-fed something I was allergic to by a school principal

I wouldn't eat the beans and bacon because I was allergic and it would make me puke. My second-grade principal took me to the janitor's closet and forced them into my mouth. When I started retching she told me not to throw up on the janitor's clean floor.

This was in the USA, in the early 80s.

Just because *you* didn't see an abuse happen doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Tucker

[lala_rawraw]

57. Here, in the states?

[AlienGirl]

76. Yep, Michigan, to be exact.

[txwhitedove]

55. Larisa's post was beautiful and effective. I believe her story

about the school lunches. As a single mother raising 3 children,
I made enough money to cover all immediate needs, but signed the
kids up for special lunch program. When they came home starving,
found out the Houston school system was not giving them the same lunch
as everyone else at a discount, but something entirely different and
practically inedible. I didn't ask for welfare or even food stamps,
just help with school lunches in an American school.

[lala_rawraw]

58. Yes, I have heard very similar

stories to your own. no child left behind worked magic, eh?

[flyarm]

80. when my son was in 5th grade a teacher in Kansas practiced

corporal punishment..when i found out what was going on..i fought and had the teacher fired...

because it happened in my sons school and with his teacher.. and not in others does that mean it didn't happen??

Each and everyone of us in life have different experiences..because one person had an experience, that you perhaps didn't ..does that mean "their truth" is not the truth??

how silly..

LaLa ..your story is truth from the heart , and i thank you for sharing it with us..

and i pray for all children that tolerance will one day become the norm and that children are valued and protected, at all costs,and will one day be the conscience of us all!

no child should ever suffer..because of ignorance or intolerance , or wars or cruelity..after all they are the most precious and valuable product man/women can ever create.

fly

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stockholm]

95. Strange indeed!

Great article LaLa!

[H2O Man]

96. Yep.

Mighty funny timing. I believe Lala. Completely. I don't believe the other person. At all.

[hlthe2b]

29. Excellent..... simply excellent...

I will be saving it to share with others. It should be on the editorial page (or even front page) of every newspaper in the country, if there were any honesty left in self-reflection..

[SalmonChantedEvening]

30. Magnificent Larissa.

Thanks Tandalayo. A must read indeed.

:pals:

[Richard Steele]

33. K&R nm

[Cha]

34. Awesome LaLa!

Thanks, Tandalayo, for bringing it to our attention! She nailed it most eloquently.

It really hurts to read about your own country that way but it's all true and the only thing we can do is keep the fight to rid ourselves of the Cancer known as bushinc.

[DoYouEverWonder]

36. Lala RawRaw Rocks

She not only talks the talk, she walks the walk.

:hug:

[Mr_Spock]

37. That was a great experience

I hope she will inspire others to open up & share their feelings & experiences - it's the only way to counteract intollerance & the unspoken bigotry brewing in so many. Thanks for posting the link to her article.

[ninkasi]

38. Larisa is a truly beautiful and remarkable woman

To show the difference between Democrats and Republicans very clearly, we only have to compare Larisa to the loathsome Ann Coulter. Larisa is so far above Ann that even the most brain dead should be able to see the difference. I'm so glad that Larisa is on our side.

[Gregorian]

41. So beautiful. I embrace her.

Let me hear your story. Let me hold your hand. Let me understand.

I don't believe you could be more clear. I have not read anything more exposing. You have aimed and hit the heart of the hypocrisy.

And your story is utterly painful. I know how you felt.

Thank you Larisa.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Thank you Lala

so you too have noticed the noxious environment that we live in?

I thought I was nuts... in fact some have been hitting me over the head telling me I am nuts.

[gully]

44. Key point in her article:

"As a Jew, I was more offended by the Passion of the Christ, than I am now by a drunken actor, driving under the influence and spewing racial slurs. Honestly, the nation's overreaction to the Passion of Mel's drinking is only equal to the zeal it showed for him as though he were a prophet of God. But he did not then nor does he now deserve this kind of hysteria."

As I continue reading, the article is full of "key points."

A must read indeed.

[bleever]

45. Wow. Enough historical, sociological, and psychological material

for an entire book touched upon in this one piece.

Masterful.

Larisa:

:yourock:

:hug:

[robbedvoter]

47. There is a comment on her blog that is worth highlighting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larisa-alexandrovna/mirror-mirror-the-passi_b_26620.html?p=3#comments
By: imhotep on August 06, 2006 at 11:14am

I think a lot of people are missing the point. The reason Gibson's comments are so newsworthy is not because they are unique or haven't been espoused by others. It is because he and his champions constantly screamed that the Passion of the Christ wasn't anti-semetic, yet he shows his own anti-semetism, and being drunk is no excuse (in vino veritas?). Now all the Mel-loving fundies are trying to cover their asses by downplaying Pope Gibson's remarks. Hypocrite is too mild a word to describe them.

[PurgedVoter]

48. K&R

I Wept for her as a child as I read. Now I cry for our nation as I type.

[happydreams]

49. deleteI

[lala_rawraw]

59. ?

[happydreams]

115. Check your pm.

[lala_rawraw]

118. oh okay, i get it now... check your pm as well:)

[Pooka Fey]

52. Slam dunk article. A must-read. K&R

[Me.]

60. Quite Simply....

Amazing!

*shadow government*

[sendero]

61. A beautiful piece....

... and definitely articulates a lot of what I've been "feeling" about this debacle.

I have a tiny quibble though. I'm not sure the fact that Gibson has apologized means what the writer thinks it means. The assertion that a "true racist would never apologize" (paraphrased perhaps) might be true, but I'm not certain.

Many people think Gibson's entire career rides on clearing this up. That's a prety hefty motivation for an apology that most racists don't have.

Either way when one apologizes, in the absence of any concrete reason not to, it should be graciously accepted. Only time will really tell, and it most certainly will, because a real racist won't be able to stop himself from repeating the offense.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. Well done, Larisa. Beautiful. As an "atheist whackjob" who experienced

certain forms of discrimination and abuse as a kid over MY beliefs (or lack thereof), I salute you. :patriot:

May we all come to a point where open bigotry is not acceptable, anywhere.

[sasha031]

67. this is a fantastic piece

I wasn't aware of this writer, and also editor of Raw Story.

thank you so much for posting this,

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[graywarrior]

69. Speechless here.

Says it all.

[Roland99]

70. I just spent the last week reliving some 30 year-old memories in Disney

So good to know the M$M was up to the task of keeping the American public in-the-know on the goings on in Washington and around the world in these times of great violence and growing economic dread.


:sarcasm:



Kudos to Larisa for cutting thru the crap.



I think I'll sell everything I have and go live in Fantasyland in the Magic Kingdom. There's a lot more reality and sanity down there.

[Anita Garcia]

71. YES

[flyarm]

77. OMG! i just sat here and cried my eyes out!! incredible story

thank you LALA, for sharing with us, and giving your heart for tolerance!

and for pointing out the incredible ignorance through your eyes and the eyes of a child..



for alll the children in this wealthy nation..and around the world ..we must do better..

it is our responsibility to do better..
fly

[savemefromdumbya]

79. isn't it strange that there are so many stories about anti-Jew

You know several years ago when they tried to plant a bomb in our synagogue it just about made the local freebie newspaper. Funny how the MSM is ablaze with this

[Major Hogwash]

84. This should be pinned to the top of this subforum.

This says it all, brother.

This gal has been through hell and tells it like it is.

What an American!!

[Seabiscuit]

93. It should be pinned on the foreheads of all the neocon racists.

[merh]

87. thank you, lala

for sharing your story and perspective. :hug:

[Horse with no Name]

89. Hugsss Merh!!

I miss you, friend.
I hope you are doing well.:hug:

[merh]

98. hugss back to you Horsey

((((((hugs))))))) I'm doing good, just plugging along and trying to get back on my feet. I hope you are doing well. :hug:

[nolabels]

90. This is a terrible diatribe

Just terrible, she reviews some of the things in last few years in U.S. social history and it sounds sounds just like one of those 'b' rated macabre horror movies. Yet the worst thing about it is that it is all mostly true :puke:

[Oilwellian]

91. Wow...just, wow

Thank you for sharing your story Lala....you have quite a way with words that tug at the heart.

[Seabiscuit]

92. Triple Wow.

[Swamp Rat]

94. I'll bash Mel Gibson if I want, Larissa.

:)

"Gibson is not a hate monger" - NOPE! The "Passion of Christ" is PROOF he is a hate monger, spreading it far and wide! He is not merely a distraction from the hate in this country - he is yet another face, another manifestation of hatred here.

That was a great rant though, and I agree 100% on the larger point - this is a nation rife with hatred.

[Major Hogwash]

99. And then what?

Will that put an end to the racism in America?

The Passion of Christ is a movie.
It's already out there.
Who cares?

[Swamp Rat]

100. Apparently not you.

Enjoy the hatred then.

[jobycom]

104. I didn't see Passion of the Christ, what is the deal with it?

As an atheist, I wasn't interested, and didn't pay any attention to the religious squabbes. What does he do that is hateful in it? This is a serious question, not rhetorical, I don't know the story.

[Swamp Rat]

106. Medieval passion plays are anti-semetic by design.

Mel knew what he was doing when he (and likely his dad) came up with the idea.

------------------------------------------------------

Mel Gibson’s Passion Play

Mr. Gibson has fashioned a blunt instrument of propaganda, edged with artistry, whose visceral power gives it the potential to become his most lethal weapon of all.

By Bruce Chilton
Bernard Iddings Bell Professor of Religion
Bard College
March 2004

(snip)

Medieval passion plays entertained their audiences and at the same time drew them into the sufferings of Christ. These efforts indulged flights of fancy and superstition, manufacturing perfidious Jews, assorted demons, buxom Magdalenes, gargoyle-faced demons, and the like, but they also offered vivid realizations of how Christ, by following the way of the cross, was transformed into his resurrected glory. The intent was to open the path of Christ to all believers.

(snip)

There are many more Jewish tormenters than in the Gospels. Satan weaves in and out of their midst as Jesus is betrayed, mocked, and denied. Satan’s hairless face and head somehow seemed familiar to me, but I could not quite place him at the beginning of the film. I lost my curiosity about that for a while, diverted by the baroque portrayal of the violence inflicted on Jesus by the high priest Caiaphas and his colleagues. They are all opulently but darkly dressed; their interior corruption is manifest. If we have any doubt about the moral standing of the high priesthood, one of Caiaphas’ colleagues wears an eye-patch. Pirates of the Caribbean meets Ben-Hur.

(snip)

As a passion play, this film is a hokey but reverent meditation on the death of Jesus. The music sustains the stately pace through what amounts to the Stations of the Cross that Cyril developed in Jerusalem and that Christians still use for devotion today. The score is derivative, sounding much like some of the work in Gladiator, but it comports well with the film’s tableaux and occasional bursts of violence and splattered blood. (Acting in this case requires no comment because there is no room for it in between static images and violent outbursts, most of which involve flaying latex skin.) More successfully, the camera work affects the aim of a passion play. We look on the action, appalled and uplifted by the various characters. The blind hatred of Caiaphas, the crazed disorientation of Judas, the mute betrayal of Peter, the dithering good will of Pilate, the magnificent loyalty of Jesus’ mother, the smoldering devotion of the Magdalene, the chaste quasi-conversion of Pilate’s wife, the sadistic pleasure of the Roman soldiers, the clueless cross-bearing of Simon of Cyrene: all reflect and heighten our own responses. We ask, as we should, where would we be and where are we in this action? As the film’s deliberate rhythm proceeds, Jesus himself looks up from his agonies to fix his gaze on the characters and on us so as to underline that question.

(snip)

Monty Python tried to be funny and succeeded because Brian was not about Jesus, but Brian. Putting this cockney hero into situations like those Jesus faced, under obviously phony historical circumstances, makes for brilliant parody. In Mr. Gibson’s case, the parody is equally powerful, although unintentional. By mixing together the genre of the passion play with the pretension of historical accuracy, Gibson has inadvertently made his passion play into pious vaudeville. Claims that this film reflects the Gospels or history are cynical. Critics who treat it as a historical work have confused their profession with self-promotion. Were this film directed by Mel Brooks, we would have something to watch with pleasure. But Mr. Gibson’s Passion is libelous farce, poor art, and an incentive for credulous viewers to confuse Christian faith with hatred. After I went home, I watched Die Hard with my younger son and felt morally restored.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Chilton_Passion.htm

[jobycom]

109. I don't quite see it

As a medieval historian (by training if not employment), I agree that the passion plays of Europe were anti-Semitic (interestingly, western theater developed largely out of the early Germanic passion plays), but the Gospels in general are anti-Semitic, and simply choosing to do a Passion play doesn't really require anti-Semitism. As a kid I played Jesus a couple of years in an Easter play at my church, complete with gruesome stage makeup that disturbed some people. I don't remember any discussion of Judaism. Caiaphus was the bad guy, Pilate the weak guy, Jesus and Mary and Simon the good guys. Your description above, in the second paragraph, shows virtuous and evil Jewish characters, and evil Roman characters, as well, so it wasn't purely anti-Semitic.

I guess I'd have to see it. It still seems like a religious squabble. As someone who treats the Bible as an historical text, not an infallible wordofgod type thing, it seems to me that anyone who wanted to tell the Gospel story would have to portray Jews negatively--it's in the book. Even Al Pacino ran into that problem doing "The Merchant of Venice" recently (an amazing performance, very sympathetic, but the inherent anti-Semitism was still there). Also, as someone who has studied the matter a little, I would argue that the Gospels included in the Bible are wrong, that they were written for a Roman audience and therefore tried to please Romans, while not angering Roman leaders. Thus, the Gospels make Pilate look like a nice enough beauracrat yielding to the requests of the Jewish leaders, whereas of course the historical Pilate was bloody and crucified many, many Jews without much hesitation. Although, that portrayal comes from Josephus, who himself was biased, so who knows? Anyway, a religious film about the Bible by a person who believes in the Bible would have to include negative portrayals of Jews on the death of Jesus. To be otherwise would be to deny the Biblical story. (I do, but that's beside the point. Gibson apparently believes in it).

But I didn't see it. Maybe the review above doesn't explain it well. Now I'm tempted to rent the film just to make up my own mind. Great--the controversy is going to boost Gibson's sales.

[Swamp Rat]

110. It seems you answered your own questions.

That's great you are a medieval historian! I spent a better part of my PhD training reading original sources in Europe and on microfiche, reading texts in Occitan, Medaeval Spanish and Portuguese, Flemish, Old German, Old English, as well as ecclesiastical Latin (making translations into modern English). My sibling is an expert (as in fluent) in Turkic, Finno-Ugric, Greek languages (pre- and post-Hellenic), among other language groups, so it is handy to have him around, especially for the Dravidian stuff. :)

Perhaps you should rent the movie and decide for yourself. I prefer to spend my time doing something else like learning about Khoisan languages or Silbo Gomero... or making silly pix for DU. :D

[jobycom]

111. Your language skills are far beyond mine, then

I learned enough French, Spanish and Latin to muddle through, and was working on Arabic, but never made it through the PhD.

So did you study history or languages? Sounds like you studied a later period than me. I focused on 5th through 13th centuries, and on Spain and al-Andulus. There was no Portugal yet. What do you do, do you teach?

[Swamp Rat]

113. Yes, the periods I studied were later, where you left off.

:D

I started to study Arabic and Hebrew too but gave up after a few phrases - no time to do this. In fact, my language skills in many areas is deteriorating very rapidly, except for the Romance languages which I use often (I have family in Spain, Brazil, Costa Rica, and Germany... aber mein Deutsch ist sehr schlect jetz!). :(

No, I did not study the history of languages during my PhD work because I was concentrating on Medaeval/Renaissance music notation, and manuscript/book making, and the various tools used, as well as comparative literature (esp. picaresque literature from Spain - from Lazarillo de Tormes to Cervantes to Góngora, the latter the so-called sine qua non of melancholy writers). My interest in the history of languages and etymology came later after studying linguistics (I am finishing another masters and working on another PhD in anthropology and urban studies). I have not taught since hurricane Katrina nor since I was living in Brazil. I suppose I will begin teaching again, but perhaps in another field of expertise. Currently I am studying social theory and GIS (both the science and practical application of making maps, like the geocoding I performed in Gentilly last Spring).

Man, I hope to get around to studying about early Iberia, and FINALLY see the Alhambra!!! My sibling lives there and is interested in studying Basque... his spouse is half Basque, half Catalan (I lived in Catalunya a few years ago and miss it dearly). Do you have any reading suggestions on al-Andulus and early Iberia in general? I am also very interested in Galicia.

[jobycom]

114. I'm so far out of grad school

that I haven't kept up with it. At the time I was working on Spain, it was a vague subject that fell between the cracks for most historians--too Islamic for medievalists, too western for Islamicists. At the time most of the books and articles I studied were very old or were so new they were spotty. It was just starting to become trendy when I was burning out (kids, debt, marital troubles). One historian who was working on al-Andulus from a religious/cultural standpoint (which was my angle) was Kenneth Wolfe, but I don't know what he has done since then. His books at the time were dissertation level in scope--studying the Cordovan Martyrs, for instance. There were no good summaries of the history that I found. They were all either short passages in larger textbooks on either Europe or Islam, or else were very old, very in-depth (Oxford Companion level) books of the era. Hopefully there is more now, but I haven't kept up with it. In many ways, the work of art, music and literature historians were more advanced than political, social, cultural historians.

Man, I had a lot of theories on influence of al-Andulus on Christian culture and religion. But alas, for now, I'm a bookkeeper. I really ought to do something about that! Maybe my boss will catch me playing around here, and he'll do something about it for me! :rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

116. In case you are interested...

Here is where I lived (La Seu d'Urgell) and did research - sorry, it is in Catalan, but there is also a French link (the English link isn't working right now):

http://personal2.redestb.es/pereojnemodsu/inicict.htm

http://personal2.redestb.es/pereojnemodsu/apocal.htm

http://casal.upc.es/~ramon25/beatus/pictures.htm

Here's a page in English with a synopsis of the Urgell Ms.:

http://www.testimonio.com/Ingles/colecciones/Beatos/el_beato_de_la_seo_de_urgel.htm

[myrna minx]

97. Thank you Larisa.

Thank you for sharing your deeply personal experience with us. :hug: Excellent essay.

[wicket]

101. God bless her

n/t

[AzDar]

102. That was like a blow to the solar plexus. We've got work to do....n/t

[Uncle Joe]

107. Outstanding!

Kicked, unfortunately too late to recommend

:kick:

[Blue Belle]

119. She Rocks.

I am so sick of this Mel Gibson bullshit. She really nails it.

[cascadiance]

120. Larisa's this generations' version of Woodward and Bernstein

... when they were in their prime. Just wish that they'd still either follow their old foodsteps or Larisa's footsteps today! Awesome article by Larisa! She's really nailed it!

[Major Hogwash]

121. This is one of the greatest posts ever made at DU!!

And it goes right to the heart of the matter and doesn't wander off down side roads.

Excellent writing style and excellent piece.