It's Time To Say Good Bye

[DemocratSinceBirth]

My mom was a Stevenson delegate in 1956.She walked precincts for John Kennedy with me in a baby carriage in 1960.I remember as a nine year old kid walking with a transistor radio "glued" to my ear to see if RFK would survive the bullet wound he suffered in the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles in 1968. We all know how that turned out.I have never pulled the Republican lever in some thirty years of voting.I was a Kennedy alternate in 1980.I have contributed to every Democratic presidential campaign since 1976 and have met Bill Clinton, Rosalyn Carter, Bill Nelson, Al Gore, and even the dreaded Joe Lieberman.


I have been a DU member, racked up thousands of posts, and made real life friends here.

I am pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro affirmative action, and anti death penalty. I am for the use of force in the narrowest of circumstances.

I have favored a two state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem for as long as I can remember.

I come from a multi-religious home. This means that I have defended the Palestinian position to my more religious and ideological chauvinistic relatives. To me they meant no harm because they heard only one side of the story.

But I am pro-Israel in the sense that I believe in Israel's right to exist and something inside me would die if the Jewish state was eliminated, and although I consider myself a Christian by choice I do feel a bond with the Jewish people that goes back almost 6,000 years.

I am not calling anybody by name out but I have seen some hateful sentiments on this board. I have seen posts suggesting that as a result of Israel's actions people will not care about the Holocaust anymore. As if some people did in the first place, and if they stopped caring I would care. I have seen posts accusing Jews of dual loyalty. This didn't stop my dad from enlisting in WW2, getting hit in the eye by shrapnel in the Tunisian Campaign, contacting malaria, and spending six months in Walter Reed Hospital where they did several surgeries to save his right eye. They were able to cosmetically save the eye but not the sight. He lettered in baseball and swimming in high school and was a Golden Gloves boxer before entering the Army. Oh, he got a Purple Star. When he was discharged from the Army the Discharge papers said his health was poor. I have seen posts that suggest the Jews control the media and government; ancient calumnies that preceded pogroms against the Jews. I have seen posts that argue for the disestablishment of the Jewish state and the inhabitants sent to Brooklyn, as if the 3,000,000 Jews in Israel from Arab lands who were kicked out of nations such as Yemen, Morocco, and Iraq when Israel declared her independence have anything in common with Brooklyn. I have seen posts arguing that ridding Israel of Jews wouldn't amount to genocide; just an evacuation. I guess the Trail Of Tears was an evacuation and Andrew Jackson did the Cherokee Nation a favor. I have seen the worst kind of baiting. I have seen posts stating that the Israelis want to steal the Lebanese people's water and Israeli apologists on this board were afraid to refute the charge. Let me know when Israel starts stealing this water. I could go on.

The fight, refuting the charges have worn me down. As Dylan said "most likely you go your way and I'll go mine."

[murielm99]

1. I am so sorry.

I have mostly stayed out of this fight so I would not get tombstoned. That's a hell of a thing isn't it?

I wish you would stay.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. You're A Sportsfan

Maybe you can understand the analogy.

I used to post on ESPN's NBA board a lot but I stopped posting because I tired of arguing who was better-Dwayne Wade or LeBron James. I'm a huge Heat fan so I favor Wade but I certainly respect "The King".

Yeah, the stakes weren't nearly as high.

[kid a]

2. i don't see "current news" in this post

there is a pin-up at the top of the page fyi

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. My Post Dealt With My Exodus

I offered no criticism or condemnation of Israel's actions.

I'm done with that.

Next.

[k_jerome]

48. let me guess...

hall monitor in school.

[Skittles]

4. DO NOT LET BIGOTS DRIVE YOU AWAY

STAY AND FIGHT

[maddezmom]

6. take a break from DU, but please don't go

:)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. I Appreciate Some Of The Sentiments Here

And I'm also beginning to feel like a bit of a "drama king" with all the "please stay" posts. I didn't write my little good bye letter to get pleas to stay but it does feel good.


But there's a lesson here. Words matter. They can soothe or inflame and what you write does have an impact.

[chimpymustgo]

9. I have contemplated leaving as well, but for the OPPOSITE reason.

I have been horrified by the lack of concern for the innocent Lebanese, the hundreds of dead children. I think certain truths about Israel's actions are too often labelled "inflammatory" and "anti-semitic". Sadly and frustratingly, discussion is just not acceptable. You have to either support Israel's right to slaughter, or you get blasted to Kingdom Come.

I fear that this episode has exposed some real faults within the Democratic Party, and here at DU. For Progressives who hate war and aggression and the killing of innocents, it has been very difficult to see former comrades fall on the other side of the divide.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. I hope we can be honest with one another.

You are correct. I have seen over the top rhetoric from ideologically and religiously chauvinistic Israel supporters that embarrassed me. But I have also seen the opposition act the same way. The "baiting" pushed me over the edge.


I'm tired of it all.

[CJCRANE]

8. You've made some good points.

Stick around for a while.

[cali]

10. Don't leave.

Take a break, but don't leave.

cali.

[Karmakaze]

12. I am one of those people who believes...

in the "disestablishment of the Jewish state". I believe a new state that is neither Jewish nor Muslim nor even Christian needs to be formed in which all people living in the area formerly known as Palestine are completely equal legally and politically.

I DO NOT believe in sending the Jews who now live in Israel anywhere else - they are there, and they deserve to stay there, just like the Arabs who were driven out deserve to return or be compensated. That compensation should come from the United Nations, NOT Israel or Israeli's, because it was the UN that effectively drove those people out of their homes.

In my mind, a two state solution is NOT the answer, simply because it reinforces the racial divide that drives this war. Jews and Arabs CAN live together, and have for thousands of years. I believe that if a nation was formed in which both parties had full legal and political equality, then both ethnicities would defend that nation from external threats.

I used to have no problem with Israel's existence, but that was before I realised that the leaders of Israel were determined to make an ethnically biased nation along the lines of apartheid South Africa, and were determined to prevent the creation of an Arab nation in the remainder of Palestine.

What other nation in the world looks on demography and birth rates as a threat? The very idea of allowing Arabs to even breed themselves into a majority in Israel is anathema to the Israeli leadership. So what can they do to prevent it? The only way is to encourage Jews to breed and discourage Arabs. That sort of racial policy is abhorrent for many reasons, not least of which is what happens if simple discouragement doesn't work?

The REAL problem Israel supporters have is that the government of Israel over and over again proves their arguments wrong. Just when Israel supporters have found a way to win an argument, the Israeli government goes and does something that is impossible to defend without having to defend the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians. Im sure defending such acts DOES become awful tiring after awhile.

Here is a video that may give you a little insight into what is really going on:

http://c2ore.com/archives/?itemid=1794

[cali]

13. There are states

that don't even allow those of other religions to become citizens. Just saying.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

22. I'm not even going to get

into here with you, except to note that I'm hardly an Israel supporter, except to support Israel's existence. I've harshly condemned Israel's actions repeatedly, not only re Lebanon but regarding the Occupation, the settlements and much more.

I don't compare Saudi Arabia to Israel. You made that comparison, but this isn't, as far as I'm concerned the appropriate venue to discuss it. I thought your initial post was in direct contrast to the tone of the OP, and I want to respect the OP, here.

[Karmakaze]

23. LOL sure...

Yes, lets wait for ANOTHER thread where you can make your arguments until they are disproven, then move onto the next thread to start all over again!

[cali]

26. You are hopelessly

ill mannered. I can only assume you don't know better.

[Karmakaze]

27. Ill mannered?

LOL

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Been There... Done That...We Respectfully Disagree...

eom

[Karmakaze]

Respectfully?

According to your OP - my belief makes me an anti-semite. If that is what YOU think is respectful, you can keep it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Respectfully

If you can find the word "anti-semite" in my post I will write a $5000.00 check to the charity of your choice.


My point is I believe Israel has a right to exist, as I believe Palestine has a right to exist, as do the some 180 nations that belong to the United Nations, and I have zero common ground with people, who believe the opposite, for whatever reason.

[Karmakaze]

28. Ok sorry - HATFEUL

Of course being HATEFUL to Jews is NOT anti-semitism! What was I thinking?

And many people thought Apartheid South Africa had a right to exist. I guess I was just being anti-white for opposing them.

On edit: oops - I mean HATEFUL to whites!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Respectfully-I Don't Want To Hijack This Discussion

I can't find common ground with people who are diametrically opposed to me on what I see as a transcendant issue-Israel's right to exist.

[Karmakaze]

31. Hijack your own thread?

Well that would be a first.

What you REALLY mean to say is you don't want to answer a post that points out the faults in yours. I can respect that, like I said before, it must be hard to defend the indefensible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Respectfully-The Thread Was About The Reasons For My Departure

You can start a thread in the I/P forum about the merits of a one state solution for Palestine/Israel and I am sure you will find people to respond.

If your inference is that this is a site for people who don't believe Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state is correct then I would have never joined in the first place.

[Karmakaze]

43. My inference?

I did not infer anything, and Im sorry but if you want to be able to fire off a parting shot without response, you are shit out of luck.

Like Nadin you "infer" (more like straight out say) that you are leaving DU because of all the anti-semites. What I see that as is a plea for anyone who disagrees with Israel's actions to be silenced (or at least hidden away like before). Sorry pal, but when I read pleas like that, I react.

Im also willing to bet that, like Nadin, when your ploy fails, you will be back.

[chimpymustgo]

46. Karmakaze you a speaking truth bigtime today.

We will not shut up, we will not go away. We will not countenance the slaughter and destruction.

I thought about leaving...it was getting abusive. Criticisms of Israel were deleted, or moved to IP. But I took a break, and decided it was more important to try to stay in the fight...to make the PROGRESSIVE arguments.

Perhaps some blinders will come off, some fingers will drop from ears, and some will stop lalalalalalalalala-ing...and finally listen - and think.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I won't be back...

"shit out of luck"

"pal"

That's not very nice. -:(


I have lots of interests besides this board like my job, my girlfriend and


- will the Miami Heat repeat as NBA champions

- will the New York Mets win their first world series in twenty years

- will the Miami Dolphins make the playoffs

- will a hurricane blow me to smithereens.

[midnight]

39. Conquer and divide.

This war has as many reasons as we can think up. Don't get discouraged because people are not hearing your message. It is important to keep voicing it. My girlfriend went to the middle east to find a husband. She is Arab. She came back and said that the Arab and Jewish people eat the same food, speak the same language, and occupy the same areas. In other words she was amazed at how similar they were. She was glad to be back in America. She never found a husband. Keep in mind that all humans have a right to exist. No one should tell you otherwise.

[chimpymustgo]

17. What a profound post. And that video is must see. Thank you Karmakaze.

You should post this thread and the link separately. It should bee read, seen, and discussed.

[Karmakaze]

20. Feel free to post the video if you want,

but I don't see any reason to create even more threads on this issue.

In fact, that is one of my pet peeves. Just when you smack down one bullshit argument the thread dies and a knew one springs up and you have to do it all over again. So at the moment I am confining myself to simply responding to threads rather than creating even more.

Thanks for the kind words though :hi:

[malaise]

38. Great post n/t

[sweetheart]

15. Aye the thrill of it

When in the madness of dissonance,
you feel defeated by the lowest of foul,
no disseervice to fall down on your lance,
to make the point right or leave now.

And your mythical gesture doth entrance,
the new meme we can't talk for the muckiest sow,
when in truth we don't give a glance,
insane bonkers the talk of palestine rows.

Does the wars fog defeat those with heart,
certainly not as the democratic votes go,
but does it take its toll on our art,
yes indeed, my soul is scraped, sore and low.
In the wind and magnificent sun,
borndem a gift your elegant run.

Logoff and see you when we do,
in a lifetime or two we all chat again,
so much else out there to chew,
without knowing the hatred of men.

[Random_Australian]

18. Come back soon! Would you at least

consider coming back sometime when this has settled a bit more?

It would not be the best if we were to lose you, but if you must, you will be missed.

Cya,
R_A.

[qanda]

19. I don't post as much as I used to

Life is too important to spend it all on the internet(s). I know that I/P is a very heated subject and I probably would disagree with you on a lot of issues that deal with Israel, but I think those disagreements should be respectful and by all means should take place. I believe that part of the problem is that everyone keeps throwing up their hands when it comes to this issue. I guess it happens everywhere, not just in the Middle East or in the UN but also on DU. I don't think you should leave over this anymore than I should have left over the many issues that the people disagreed with me over. This box is your friend. Please stay and use it.

[tabasco]

21. I don't suppport any military operation in which more civilians get

killed than combatants. Like the Iraq war.

Operations by so-called civilized countries should be conducted in a civilized manner, even if it means risking more casualties on "our side."

I can hardly believe this is a point of debate.

The truth hurts sometimes. It is better to face up to it rather than run away.

[WinkyDink]

24. Stay and fight the prejudice. I didn't post about the water bit, because

I felt it was best to let that insane accusation die in its crib.

I wonder, sometimes: would those here who defend Muslim/Palestinian attacks on Israel, applaud if Israelis suddenly decided to teach their youth, through a completely sick story of a reward of virgins in Heaven no less, to attack GERMANY??

I would hope these DU'ers would think this would be TOTALLY APPROPRIATE and DEFENSIBLE, for THEY defend the War On Israel dating from 1948, and I'm referring to an event from the SAME DECADE.

But of course, what's a mere Holocaust compared to the poor, benighted Palestinians killed after they attacked Israelis and didn't encounter the same unprepared Jews the Germans did?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Hmmm

My reptilian brain is sympathetic to your argument but if I endorse it I am guilty of perpetrating the lie that that this is some kind of manichean struggle, and that is what I thought I was railing against in my original post.


Peace

[chimpymustgo]

36. "The REAL problem Israel supporters have is that the government of Israel

Karmakaze's post upthread sums up the problem, IMO:

- snip -

"The REAL problem Israel supporters have is that the government of Israel over and over again proves their arguments wrong. Just when Israel supporters have found a way to win an argument, the Israeli government goes and does something that is impossible to defend without having to defend the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians. Im sure defending such acts DOES become awful tiring after awhile."

- snip -

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. It Does Get Tiring But Not For The Reasons You Cited.

If you read my post closely you will see that I blame the reptilian brain for the emotions of the specific poster I responded to. The reptilian part of the brain is the least evolved part of the brain that reacts viscerally to any situation and springs to attack without seeing the complexities of the situation. The reptilian brain is good for the survival of lizards but not humans.

[union_maid]

40. Having read the responses to you

Maybe you're right. At least, most of them are hardly designed to make you reconsider. I feel really badly about it, though. It's been a great place for information. Your posts have always been an oasis of sanity when things get crazy. But in the end, Skinner and others are going to have to figure out how to handle this kind of exodus. There are going to be more of them and most will be unannounced. If this place ends up a battleground between just the very extreme left, a few DLCers and freeper sock puppets it would be kind of tragic in a digital sort of way.

[Karmakaze]

44. Man historical blindness at its best.

Do you even KNOW the names "Irgun" and "Stern Gang"? Did you even KNOW that for decades BEFORE the Holocaust, Zionist Jews were migrating to Palestine and driving out the people who lived there?

But it was the Arabs who attacked! It has to be!

[H2O Man]

30. The Sea of Pines .....

I find it humorous that I can take a position, and then have some people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; others say they are shocked I'm anti- _____; and a few more say, "Yes, but ...."

I have been holding back from posting a few essays here, not because of any "burn out" or from a belief that the minority of "freepers" are effective in disrupting DU. It's because I think that people are going through a rough time with the war in the Middle East. There is evidence of that in the DUers taking a stance on the situation, despite the fact that it is exactly opposite the message of your post.

It is good to take time to hang out with pine trees .... they have a positive attitude, and can always put one in a better mood. They never say that you don't know what you are talking about. They are never shocked to find that you are pro-____ or anti-_____. Pines never say, "Yes, but ...."

They just are. And some things just are.

The Water Man hopes that you stay, and tend your own garden on DU.

Peace.

[union_maid]

32. I understand, but I hope you'll stay or come back

We've never talked but I've read your posts since I started at DU. I do understand. Messageboards seldom bring out the best in us and they attract people with very special axes to grind, outside, I mean, of the axe that's supposed to bind us all together. It's unfortunate, because they could be such a great way to communicate, but they highlight the differences, don't they?

I've stayed away from those threads because they're upsetting and no one here can affect that situation one iota. Democrats can't either, right at the moment. The only branch of the US government that can practice diplomacy is the executive and that doesn't bode well for anyone in this conflict or those affected by it.

My concern is if a lot of people like you leave, DU won't be of much use, will it? It'll belong to just one group of people, and they won't be people who represent the views held by the vast majority of the Democratic party or anyone who might possibly vote Democratic. And that would be a shame.

[bridgit]

34. the middle east is a daunting subject & prospect, but would you care...

to know that gist of it? they are proud of it. proud of just that the very most; being: contentious, complex, simple-minded & gloriously absurd

you can say you support only one side and be correct. you can say your are against only one side and be correct. you can say you support every side and be correct. you can say you are against every side and be correct. it is sometimes what the inhabitants of the middle east seem the only & very most proud of...being contrary

until Israel herself separates church & state, as others in the region have done, nothing is going to change

[JerseygirlCT]

41. I'm sorry to read this. And especially sorry to see another

voice for reason quieted.

I agree with all you said.

[LWolf]

42. This topic, more than any others I've seen here,

seems to be ruled by emotion rather than logic. When people have an emotional tag to a particular subject, it narrows their view and colors their response to what others have to say. Then it doesn't really matter what the situation is, what the facts are, or how dissent is presented, people are going to be offended.

You have acknowledged your emotional tags. That makes you wiser than many.

I'll second H2O man's suggestion for a time out. You may find you are ready to move on from DU, you may find that you are ready to come back, but take some time out.

[theHandpuppet]

45. I'm sorry you feel that way, DSB, BUT....

If you're going to leave because there have been informative and thought-provoking discussions over the role water plays in ME conflicts such as this one, there's not much I can say. Those discussions were backed up by scores of links and people who disagreed about the importance of water in these conflicts were just as free to post their own links. See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1696420 and http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1698430 for two such examples of "hateful" threads as you call them. That's going too far.

Have there been some individual posts with hateful language? Most certainly, and in most cases the moderators have wisely deleted such posts. I've also heard hateful speech and baiting from both sides of this issue. You just have to wade through that stuff and fight for your side of an issue and be willing to back it up with facts. Evenso, you may find yourself among a minority of opinion. That's life. It doesn't mean you're wrong, either. Debate, even heated debate, is the lifeblood of DU. Some of the harsh criticsm of the Israeli govt you read here is tame compared to the criticism we level at our government!

[Philosoraptor]

47. Good Bye

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Not Even A Kiss

eom

[Philosoraptor]

52. Nothing personal, I just hate long goodbyes.

[k_jerome]

51. I would ask you to reconsider...

and not let bigoted mob tactics drive you off. You know what their objective is, do not let the tactic be successful. Peace.

[LoZoccolo]

53. You could do what I do and put tons of people on ignore.

I come here for certain reasons, like getting news that doesn't get reported in a widespread manner (Bush*'s back massage maneuver comes to mind as a recent one), to find out out to think practically and strategically about electoral politics, to give my advice on same to those interested, and to get people involved in real-life electoral politics as well as finding out how to get involved in same. If someone is found to diverge from these, I have the option of not allowing them to command my attention and limited time. But there will always be people who tear down more than they build; I'm resigned to acknowledging that.

[Rex]

54. So, you cannot just ignore the obvious flamebait threads?

Just gonna pick up your ball and go home? Ridiculous.

[Jazzgirl]

55. You should stay Demo.

I have tried to stay away from most of the discussion too. I have seen some things that made me put some people on ignore for the very first time! I've never done that before. I refuse to leave though because overall, DU is a great community. Some levity will come back...I hope. :grouphug:

[Moderator]

56. Locking....

We wish you well and hope that you will return soon.