Driving While Brown in Phoenix

[Another Bill C.]

My late wife's sister is American Indian (Hopi). She's a mild-mannered, religious, middle-aged person and a teetotaler. She has a perfect driving record.

Yesterday, while driving home from work, she moved over to the right lane on Northern Avenue without seeing a car in her blind zone. The driver of that car was obviously upset and followed her for quite a while.
When it became apparent that she was being followed, she pulled over to the side of the road. The other driver pulled up behind her.

Sis-in-law got out of her car with the intention of apologizing to the offended driver for cutting him off. When she approached his car, she noticed that he was, apparently, an off-duty policeman. He was talking on his cell phone and she caught the words, "she's pulled over and stopped." He totally ignored her attempt to apologize.

Soon, there was a police helicopter overhead and two squad cars appeared. She was handcuffed and questioned and then put through the DUI drill; being insulted all the while. Ultimately, she insisted on a Breathalyzer test and blew 000.

From the questions she was being asked, I suspect that the cop called this incident in as a hit-and-run DUI, even though there was no contact made between cars.

I guess the cops have the perfect road-rage weapon. I don't live in the area so I can't offer the support I'd like to. I wish I could give back to my sister-in-law some of the pride that was taken from her yesterday.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Just when we think race relations have come a long way in the USA

racist cops take us back 40 years.

[Phx_Dem]

2. well based on your description

we really don't know it the officer is racist. your sis-in-law made an illegal lane change which the off duty cop obviously called in. What happened after that is referred to as a "terry stop"

I don't doubt that there are some racist cops in the Valley, but with the number of latinos and native americans here they sure would not last long.

I re-read your post, what was said that was insulting? Why was she handcuffed? If she thinks she was treated unfairly she should file a complaint. Please don't misinterpret me, I have been "abused" by cops all over the valley and I am white.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. I am a 52 year old white woman

I have changed lanes without signaling - and didn't get pulled over. I also have been pulled over but have never been put into handcuffs at a traffic stop.

I have also watched the local cops here pull over brown skinned drivers for YEARS. Racial profiling is very alive and well in my hometown.

[Phx_Dem]

8. just a few years ago I was pulled over on the I-10 for nothing

cop told me that he smelled weed on my breath and wanted to search my backpack, I let him because I was in a hurry.

A few years before that I was pulled over, written 8 citations, arrested and spent THREE days in jail for an old ticket that cost $21.

Then there was the time....

[misanthrope]

19. I was stopped and strip-searched...

..in a parking lot late one night simply because I was walking home. I had no driver's license at the time and the cops took my library card, called my name in, searched me as I leaned on the hood and finally sent me on my way. As they pulled off, one of them barked at me, "You best get some ID if you know what's good for you."

What jumped into my head was the scene from Gandhi where he was in South Africa and was asked for his "travelling papers."

How do they get away with this kind of harassment? Like this: when I told my mother about the incident, her response was that the cop was doing the right thing because "normal people aren't out walking around at one in the morning."

[FormerOstrich]

23. I think there is a lot of racism here in the..

valley of too much sun!

When my niece moved here to go to school I told her with the cops here just do as they say and sue later because they will shoot you. While I have no doubt that there is a lot of racism, the cops here are equal opportunity dicks.

What I find most interesting is the horn and lights flashing. Your SIL should not have pulled over unless it was a marked car. A citizen is not obligated to pull over for an off-duty cop. Her stopping without knowing his identity is very dangerous. For that matter, my understanding is at night, even if it is a marked car they are to allow you to exit the freeway to stop in a well lit place (I don't think I'd try that legal or not).

She should file a complaint. He was harassing her. She should not have pulled over until the actual on-duty sorts pulled her over.

I am a resident here. If there is anything I can help with, please let me know. I'd be happy to talk to her.

[ComerPerro]

18. I was pulled over and ticketed once for "following too closely"

after being cut off and almost hit by a truck.
Go figure

[Another Bill C.]

9. I didn't include

the actual conversations that took place. Among other things, they threatened her with a felony hit-and-run even though there was no contact made between cars and no damage apparent on either car.

The first arriving officer began the conversation with “so how much have you have to drink sweetie?” and kept insisting that she was drunk. Because of her weight she had a hard time performing some of the DUI tests and they kept giving her more of them.

He asked why she didn't respond to the horn-honking and flashing lights and wouldn't believe her when she said there were none.

I don't know how a bad lane change warrants a helicopter, two squad cars, and handcuffs unless it's Driving While Brown.

[AlamoDemoc]

3. I am so sorry what happened to your sister-in-law

I drive very expensive car and I can attest that this shit happens too many of us. There are racist bastards with a badge everywhere.

[City Lights]

5. Driving while anything in Phoenix is dangerous.

I saw more accidents in the five years I lived there than I did in the rest of my life combined. Speeders, red light runners, drunk drivers, yellow light hit the gassers, etc. My husband and I were each hit once, both rear ended. I was almost hit another time by a red-llight runner while taking my kids to school. Between our car insurance rate almost doubling and the fact that our licenses didn't expire until we turned 65 (we're in our 40s), we should have realized we were taking our lives into our own hands every time we ventured out onto the streets.

As for your SIL, my overall impression of the cops there is "shoot first, ask questions later." Your SIL made a mistake by not looking over her shoulder before changing lanes. The cop assumed the worst. Shame on him. I wouldn't assume it had anything to do with her being "brown" though.

Be glad you don't live in the area. :puke:

[Coyote_Bandit]

6. Traffic enforcement is often discretionary

Here the only drivers who are stopped and ticketed for illegal lane changes without signaling are those who are talking on cell phones (not defending cell use as I think it should be prohibited while driving - just pointing out the inequities in enforcement).

Anybody driving an older car or a car in generally poor repair should not be surprised to find themselves followed and stopped by police.

Illegals caught in traffic stops are not detained - but those with outstanding parking tickets are.

Young people have curfews and can expect to be stopped if they are in violation - even if they are over the age limit.

Random stops and DUI checkpoints are always set up near section 8 housing and in older poorer neighborhoods. I have never seen one set up near the more prosperous residential areas.

Good luck getting any police presence if you happen to live in an upper class neighborhood and have problems with residential speeders. You would be advised to have your neighborhood association fork over the money to have the city install speed bumps.

And if you do happen to be stopped and ticketed for speeding the cop has the discretion to write the ticket under a statutory provision where there will not be points against your drivers license (and it will not be reported out of state).

Edit to add that my point is that soci-economic status and age are often criteria for discriminatory enfocement as well as race. I have seen all of those here.

[B Calm]

7. Was she ticketed? if so, what was the charge?

If she was given a ticket, I would fight it!

[B Calm]

10. Letters to the editor in your local newspaper, etc etc.. She has the

power to get this cop fired!

[Another Bill C.]

11. No ticket

I think that in the end the on-duty cops figured out what the off-duty cop was trying to pull and convinced him that it wasn't a good idea to pursue this.

[B Calm]

12. I hope she got the cops name... He has no business being a cop

with road rage... Did he tailgate her?

[Another Bill C.]

14. No tailgating

As far as I can tell. Just a lot of road rage.

[notadmblnd]

13. it's not unique to Az

my 13yr old son got the treatment for riding his bike while brown. The cops saw him and a friend on he corner and when they decided to go in different directions, the cops figured it was a drug deal and chased him down. They even thought the wratchet in his pocket (uses it for bike repairs)was a crack pipe. My son doesn't do drugs, he's not troubled and he's not angry. His father took good care of us.. so he certainly doesn't have to sell drugs. When I said something to the cop about it, he assured me that they're not like that.. they don't profile. He..he.., yeah, I just fell off the truck. We live in Michigan.

[poverlay]

15. I'm one of the most non-racist people you'll ever meet so don't

misinterpret this remark:

There is an overwhelming number of non-licensed, primarily hispanic drivers in this state. It's a problem. Without at least a green card, you can't get a license. Many times when an illegally immigrated hispanic person is pulled over without a license or proof of citizenship they run.
There are racist cops I'm sure, but don't blame them for dealing with the problem as it has presented itself.

I'm so sorry your sil got caught up in a set of consequences brought on by others.

[Kingshakabobo]

17. "I'm so sorry your sil got caught up in a set of consequences brought...

....by others."

What would that 'set of consequences' be? Her skin color?

[poverlay]

24. Please spare me the ignorance pretending to be bait. It's insulting:

When a police officer who has a job to do, (keeping me safe) has a perpetrator approach them after any law violation, they are required(by training and policy) to treat that person as hostile. The very same thing happened to my mother after she cut a left too hard and clipped the double yellow line. She was very white, and very wrong. I've had far worse treatment(4 cars, 2 bikes, and a couple of dogs!) because I had a stereo in my car that wasn't connected, and they thought it was stolen. Took me hours to clear up. Cops are often jerks I know, but they're not all, always, racial profiling. To assume such only clarifies your own preconceived prejudice. The majority of people in this state are hispanic, native american, or something other than white. Do you think the police here just see that as a smorgasbord to satisfy their hatred?
There have been many incidents endangering police officers, should they stop being careful? Should they stop doing their jobs the best and safest way they know how? Do you think dealing with scum criminals and idiots who endanger others' lives all day is likely to make them full of sunshine and cheer?

Read the A.R.S.. they allow his actions whether they were necessary or not, for the very best of reasons.

Not being there and not knowing any of the principles in this situation, I can't judge one way or the other. I was clearly stating that there was fair and logical reason for the police's actions based on what was said by the O.P..

Please use logic and not thin skinned reactionary assumptions when you decide to engage me or I will not reply next time.

[Kingshakabobo]

25. Let me get this straight. Just so we are clear......

You are saying it is OK to treat brown-skinned people differently due to the large numbers of illegal immigrants and the fact that they are more likely to run? And you are "sorry" for her and her "consequences."

[poverlay]

27. You obviously aren't paying attention.

[Kingshakabobo]

28. You can clear it up by answering the question......

Otherwise, all we have is you original post to go by. If you want say that cops should treat brown-skinned people as a flight risk due to the lack of green cards and licenses - just say it. Don't beat around the bush. There is no need for insults and hurt feelings.

BTW, I'm not the one that assumed ANY motive for this cop's actions. It was YOU who said this:

"There is an overwhelming number of non-licensed, primarily hispanic drivers in this state. It's a problem."

"Many times when an illegally immigrated hispanic person is pulled over without a license or proof of citizenship they run."


I merely questioned whether I understood you correctly when you started to pout.

[poverlay]

31. Do try and pay attention. I already answered your question.

Let me try and spell it out for you.

There are myriad reasons for a police officer to treat the O.P.'s sil as he did that have nothing to do with "racial profiling". The sentences you quote are necessary understandings for people to have before they start accusing the cop of racism. Are they untrue? If no one ever ran, no one ever attacked a police officer, no one was driving illegally, do you honestly believe the O.P.'s sil would have been handcuffed and the officer would have called for backup?

I do believe that some profiling is done everyday by everyone. Some, especially law enforcement, must do it more than others for their, and your, and my own safety. I don't believe that it always includes race, or that when it does it is necessarily to be "oppressive" or "racist". I do not think that officers "should treat brown-skinned people as a flight risk due to the lack of green cards and licenses". I believe that sometimes they have to. There is little choice in the matter. If that is racist, then we are ALL racist.

You obviously didn't understand my previous posts. I encourage you to read them again and again with the goal of understanding me and not the goal of accusing me of racism or racist apologia.

[Kingshakabobo]

32. I understood your post just fine.....

It was the schizophrenic statements such as this....:

"I do not think that officers "should treat brown-skinned people as a flight risk due to the lack of green cards and licenses". I believe that sometimes they have to. There is little choice in the matter. If that is racist, then we are ALL racist."


.....that threw me off. You don't believe police should treat brown-skinned people differently but sometimes they have to????? That's racial profiling.

This tidbit is interesting:

"I do believe that some profiling is done everyday by everyone. Some, especially law enforcement, must do it more than others for their, and your, and my own safety."

Law enforcement aside, what kind of racial profiling do you practice? Just curious.

[poverlay]

34. How long have I been racial profiling? Wow, the simple fact that you

think I'm stupid enough to play that game shows a distinct lack of respect. Go back and re-read what you just said to me and try and find the part where you twist my words. Stop adding words, assuming meanings where none exist, and ignoring meanings that are abundantly clear. You also might want to look up "should", and the difference between "profiling", and "racially discriminatory profiling" in the dictionary. Amnesty International has some good info too.

Then refer back to my other posts. They are quite clear. Seek understanding instead of offense. It'll make your life much more enjoyable.

Don't reply to me until you can argue logically and have a point besides imaginary offense... If you can't do that, don't be surprised if you don't hear back from me.

[RagingInMiami]

26. So you advocate profiling?

Were you living in the Valley during the infamous Chandler Roundup in 1999 when cops and INS officials went around arresting anyone who looked Hispanic, many who were actually born in this country?

That cost the City of Chandler hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawsuits.

[titoresque]

30. Oh GEEZ......

We also have a very large number of senior citizens here from small towns who don't know how to drive and/or cannot see/react properly and DO have licenses.
The whole license thing is bullshit. Racial profiling is bullshit!

[treestar]

36. There are white people who are illegally in the US

Europeans violate the immigration laws too. There are plenty of them.

Immigration status is of not concern to a cop. They have no jurisdiction to enforce those laws. They are the feds' responsibility.

As for being uninsured or unlicensed, there is nothing that can be done to enforce that unless there is a violation justifying the stop first. They can't just stop brown skinned people on some statistical presumption in their racist minds that there are more brown-skinned drivers who are unlicensed, uninsured, or illegal.

We don't judge people collectively in this country.

Maybe changing lanes without signalling was a violation, in which case, the cop can make the stop, but he should stop white people who do the same thing for the same reason.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

16. Welcome to the new Fascist America....

I don't think color has that mu to do with it anymore. You just shouldn't piss off a cop.

So sorry for what your sister in law went through.

[B Calm]

20. I don't think the color of her skin had anything to do with it either. I

do think the guy was pissed off because she changed lanes without making sure she was clear to do so. Instead of the guy keeping calm and cool, he blew his top in road rage.

[Balbus]

21. I agree with Tom - sounds like it was just another asshole cop.

That profession seems to attract a lot of them, unfortunately.

[Kailassa]

22. Racism in America? No way! You can ask any white

and they'll tell you it doesn't happen.

What many don't realize is that when whites are being treated badly, dark skinned people are being treated that way 10 times as often.

[titoresque]

29. The cops here in Az. have the asshole Arpaio

cheering them on. Pricks! The lot of them, pricks!

[Kingshakabobo]

33. THAT guy is an American Nazi. nt

[AspenRose]

35. I hate to say it but I just come to expect it nowadays

Which is why I try to be super-careful when I'm driving.

But two weeks ago here in NOVA (Northern VA) I was at a stop light, in line and waiting/signalling to make a right turn, and there was a cop behind me on a motorcycle. He pulled up next to me at the light and told me I had to remove the frame around my license plate because he couldn't tell what state my license plate was from.

Guess I wasn't careful enough, because I didn't see that one coming....

[Javaman]

37. Welcome to the reactionary police state. Hope you enjoy your stay. nt