If 9*11 and Iraq were lies - what else has been lies?

[Skip Intro]

What lies are we believing yet?

How can you possibly know who to trust, what to believe, for sure?

Sometimes it feels like the takeover of our country was completed a while back, and what's being done now is a pointless charade to keep us all busy to minimize the mess.

you know - this person did this thing and that person did that thing and we're dealing with the result and if we could just get this under control we'll get about the business of doing what's best for the people.

for the people????

frustrating sometimes....

[readmoreoften]

1. Bigger 9-11 lies and more outrageous Iraq lies.

You can only be so evil before folks stop giving you the benefit of the doubt and say... Hey! What are you REALLY capable of???!!!!

I tend to think that GWB isn't just a frat boy scoundrel or a bad politician with apocalyptic beliefs. I think he's a drug-hardened sociopath hell bent on making as much money as possible for his boys and murdering whoever he needs to get it.

Take the worst piece of human garbage you see in prison. Give it money, religion, family connections-- throw in a little weaselyness-- and you have GWB.

[Codeblue]

2. What if?

I always think about what ifs. WHat if everything we know about our world is already wrong. How would we know? Nobody today was alive in the Classical Period so nobody can tell us the truth of what happened there. Everything we read in history books could be totally made up. I havent read a history book made before the 1950's.

It makes me sad to think about all the WWII veterans dying off. Someday they'll be able to manipulate the events of that war with nobody here to tell them differently.

[Arkham House]

20. An excellent post--

--and, I might add, an old obsession of mine--what do we *really* know about human history? Almost all the information about the ancient world went up in flames when the library at Alexandria was burned...and hell, considering how hard it is to know what's happening *now*--what can we really know, even about events as recently as, say, World War II? Or even the "Sixties"? Our memories aren't reliable, because we can't remember the past without the accretions of time and experience that have occurred since...and likewise, the documents of that time have been influenced by what's happened since... This is a very deep subject, and you put it very well in a short space...

[elehhhhna]

35. You make a heck of a point. We must start listening to the vets'

stories -- so many of them have not spoken about the atrocity of war to their families but now, as they're aging, and we're at war again, it seems they're more willing. My StepFIL was at Guadalcanal at 17. 2 of my FIL's pals survived the sinkng of the Indianapolis (yes, 2!) Almost every family has stories like these...but not if you don't ask.

Please, start asking Grandpa about the war(s). You' learn a LOT.

[never cry wolf]

52. what if.....

nothing to do with the OP, but I have similar "what if" thoughts.... it has been a while and I think i need to explore what ifs more often.... thx...

[everythingsxen]

3. Let me just say this...

:eyes:

Why attribute to conspiracy what stupidity and incompetence already explain?

[EFerrari]

9. Because the evidence keeps pointing to conspiracy -- albeit

conspiracy of the stupid and the incompetent.

lol

[readmoreoften]

11. You got it, SF!

Just because some of them are stupid doesn't mean others of 'em aren't as evil as the day is long.

[converted_democrat]

12. I don't buy that anymore.. If they're so stupid and incompetent, how have

lined their pockets so effectively through out this entire process?

[EFerrari]

15. You don't know any stupid rich people?

:)

[Vitruvius]

46. "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" --

-- Robert A. Heinlein

The rich gangsters that comprise the American ruling class has always understood the power to be had by operating as -- a gang. A rich, criminal, ruling-class gang.

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. Because the first is criminal

the second is not.

[baldguy]

17. Stupidity & incompetence can explain the govts actions

before 9/11, and leading up to the Iraq War.

Only conspiracy can explain the cover-ups, the lies, the contradictions, the corruption, and the total absence of Congressional oversight.

[Beelzebud]

24. **mipost

[elehhhhna]

36. the coverups and lack of accountablitily/punishment.

[glitch]

39. Because stupidity and incompetence deny the existence of agendas.

Agendas do exist you know.

[leftofthedial]

4. this is government by, for and of the corporations

and even they are being conned by the bush crime gang

[gator_in_Ontario]

5. pretty much everything

Everything you know is wrong---
Question authority--always

[michael_1166]

6. And even if there weren't that much lies before 9/11...

these days we finally found out that capitalism and corporatism kills democracy in the long run.

What's needed is a completely new concept about how to live on this planet. But I fear we can't even start to think about such a new concept until we find a way of how to switch off the idiots running the show now.

[bananarepublican]

7. November 22, 1963... America proclaims itself to be a Banana Republic!

The "axis of evil" in the world is not Iran, Iraq and North Korea. This axis is comprised of everyone complicit in the death and cover up of JFK's murder.

The JFK assassination is the Rosetta Stone in terms of decoding what has gone on for at least the last 50 years. Believe it, or not!

[Disturbed]

8. Another situation that is still under the dirty rug is

the NSA Spying. It still astounds me that Gen. Hayden is now the CIA Chief.

[EFerrari]

10. Why? It's not like he's not qualified. lol

[DemonFighterLives]

18. I agree

We turned the corner way back then.
Nothing is as it seems.
Welcome to DU!
:dem:

[Octafish]

19. Nothing's been the same since the assassination of President Kennedy.

With bad reason:

This FBI document shows what George Herbert Walker Bush told the FBI -- less than an hour after the assassination -- he had heard someone say he wanted to kill JFK in Houston. Why didn't he report it BEFORE the assassination? And what was Poppy doing in Dallas? And which political "philosophy" has benefitted the most since November 22, 1963? That would be the War Party.



J Edgar Hoover, in this document, describes being briefed "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" in regards to the feelings of the pro- and anti-Castro Cuban community in Miami. Gee. No wonder Poppy said he wasn't in the CIA until he became DCI in 1975. Of course, Dim Son bragged his daddy was CIA way before then in the Texas ANG days and Harvard.



DETAILS

Thanks for knowing and thanks for giving a damn, bananarepublican. And a hearty welcome to DU!

[FUGW]

41. Oh please, like JFK wasn't a product of the ruling class.

[DemonFighterLives]

54. Where are you coming from?

Care to explain?
Kennedy was our chosen ruler before the coup took him out.
:dem:

[bananarepublican]

55. So why did they kill him?

Also, since the family was worth over $400 million in the early 60's, JFK didn't need any multi-million dollar handouts from Halliburton (with strings attached?) before entering government service!

[mopinko]

50. octafish, what do you think about

thom hartmann's new book about the assassination?

[elehhhhna]

37. and we al lknow who was in Dallas that day, don't we?

[indepat]

13. The entire RW agenda is nothing but a pack of monstrous lies IMHO

[malaise]

14. We have a winner n/t

[elehhhhna]

22. The Manchurian party. If you want to control the planet, you start with

the USA. It's simple. And obvious.

[elehhhhna]

21. 3rd Rec. I've been wondering the same thing lately and

it's very scary to go there.

[EFerrari]

23. Thinking about this again, they wouldn't even think of it as lying.

It's branding, it's marketing to them. Our government apparatus is just part of the infrastructure of their business.

The thing is, that it's become much to transparent to us. We know LNCB leaves our schools behind, HAVA hinders American voters, Clear Air clears the way for their pals to make a buck by lifting oversight.

So, yes, they lie about everything but they probably don't think of it as purposeful deceit most of the time. It's just business, it's not personal.

[newspeak]

28. right on!!!

It's all about marketing!!! Sell war, sell BS!!! Poppy Bush hired a PR firm to get the American people on the Iraq war bandwagon. And, * sold us a creation--he's a PR creation--that's why we see so many photo ops. Then, our newest brand name product (the Iraq war, war on terror) has been shoved down our throats by a PR campaign, again!!!! And, the PR firms have the blessings of the corporate media--spouting their BS--war to them is just another product to sell to the clueless, while they reap power and billions from us!!!! It seems the American people should know by now the old "hard sell" game.

[Beelzebud]

25. This all began when they put a bullet in JFK's head.

The conspiracy is still in progress.

[Generator]

26. Yep, has anyone imagined the disgusting crap

we will someday find out these cretins did or wanted to do (when and if) we ever get rid of them. Can you imagine? Everything that was partially leaked that we know about is always so horrifying-spying, torture.. We just this week finally got a pitiful pittance of admitance that those that were suppose to find the truth-knew NORAD (OH freaking quell surprise!) was lying about what it did on 9/11.


HOW many bodies are buried? How many lies? It boggles the mind.

[DemonFighterLives]

27. 911 Ommission Report

Wait for version 25- closer to the truth, but no cigar.
:kick: and :rec:

[flyarm]

29. read this!

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_di...

"It proved difficult, if not impossible, to raise hard questions about 9/11 in New York without it being perceived as criticism of the individual police and firefighters or of Mayor Giuliani," Kean and Hamilton said....



seems it didn't matter to the 9/11 commissioners what the families said or cared about..when the hearing was on and Giuliani was on the witness stand the famlies were screaming calling Giuliani a liar and demanding the commissioners question him under oath and ask the real questions..numerous family members were escorted out of the hearings!
but heaven forbid the commissioners didn't want to get "bad press!" for doing the job they were tasked to do!

fly

[DemonFighterLives]

53. Link didn't work for me

I'm sure these commissioners were very sensitive to keeping things hushed up nice and tidy. The supposed dems. on the panel did not even stand up.
Fixed!

[earth mom]

30. IT'S ALL LIES.

From the JFK assassination on. The powers that be have done their lying and manipulating with the complicity and total co-operation of the media which has lead to slavish devotion-brainwashing-of the public. If people don't see it on teevee, they don't believe it. Just look at how many times we "must, must, must" have a link to prove our points around here. But who is to say that link or that news agency being referenced is not a lie or liar?!

Look no further than who benefits from the lies. The BFEE, Congress, Corporate Media, Stock Market, Corporations like the Pharma Giants who poisoned infants and got away with it. The list is endless! I don't believe a word out of 99% of those elected to office anymore and nothing from anyone who is trying to make a dime off of me!

Don't you dare tell me what to think-I'll make my own mind up, damn it! :grr:

:rant:

[Initech]

40. DING DING DING!!!

Everything since JFK has been a lie. And it's only got worse since Richard Nixon. The US has become that shady neighbor who just sits in his house all the time, but seems really friendly when he needs company.

As an insane conspiracy theorist I've been often reminded of this Family Guy quote:

"Why son, everything I say is a lie. Except that.

And that.

And that.

And that.

And that.

And that.

And that."

[CJCRANE]

31. Poppy said (apparently):

March 9, 2005:
"If the people knew what we had done, they would chase us down the street and lynch us." (George H.W. "Poppy" Bush)

From: http://reopen911.org/76plan.htm

(BTW can anyone confirm that this is a true quote?)

[charlie]

32. Can't confirm it

But, true to form, Szymanski gets it wrong. Everyone else attributes the quote to an interview with Sarah McClendon in 1992.

[spanone]

38. It's never too late, Poppy....

[EFerrari]

33. Cool thread, Skip Intro.

:)

[Jara sang]

34. Carroll Quigley said that country is run by an Anglo-American cabal

That they merely maintain the electoral process for appearances. The problem with Quigley is that he saw no problem with this, the bastard.

From Tragedy & Hope:

There does exist, and has existed for a generation, an international Anglophile network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical Right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Group has no aversion to cooperating with the Communists, of any other groups, and frequently does so.

I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960's, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments.

I have objected, but in the past and recently, to a few of its policies (notably to its belief that England was an Atlantic rather than a European Power and must be allied, or even federated, with the United States and must remain isolated from Europe), but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wished to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known.

[EFerrari]

42. My grandad helped stage elections in Central America.

You think it can't happen here. :)

/ed

[Philosoraptor]

43. E--V--E--R--Y--T--H--I--N--G

[starroute]

44. Boy, where to start?

Much of what has gone on in the former Soviet Union and the Balkans since the fall of communism has been lies. The "color" revolutions, in particular, have been largely instigated by groups like the International Republican Institute and are not really about the march of democracy. The Balkan Wars of the 90's -- I wasn't really paying attention at the time and still don't have it all straight, but every new thing I learn about those reveals one more layer of lies.

I'm starting to suspect that much of what has gone on in Israel over the last dozen years or so has been a set of lies by the Neocons and their hard-right Likudnik allies, fostered on the general Israeli population as much as on Americans.

Terrorism in general -- what percentage of alleged terrorist incidents do you suppose were really false-flag operations? 50%? More? How about the 7/7/05 London bombings? The 3/11/04 Madrid train bombing? (And is somebody playing games with double-digit numbers here, thinking we're too dumb to notice?)

Another set of lies involves people and entities that seem to be working independently but actually turn out to be joined at the hip. This ranges from the domestic -- all those school cases of alleged religious persecution that were ginned up by the same two or three religious right lawfirms -- to the international -- where local politicians, American NGOs, and helpful PR firms so often turn out to be working together to promote a common agenda.

Then there are the get-us-in-to-war lies, like the infamous Kuwaiti incubators or whatever unlikely accusations got us into Panama and Granada. (Wasn't that one alleged threats to American medical students?) And there were not just one but a whole panoply of Iraq War lies -- Niger uranium, aluminum tubes, Curveball and his ilk, fake al Qaeda links. . .

There are doubts not only about 9/11 itself, but about the whole way a consensus narrative was carefully constructed, involving Osama bin Laden and Pakistani paymasters and whatnot. None of that is solidly founded, all of it came out of a tight little clique of journalists and analysts.

There are the many lies being told about Hugo Chavez -- and about Castro's Cuba. (If the US media applied the Iraq standard of "what about the good news?" Cuba would seem like a veritable paradise -- or at least a place where they know how to get the people out of the paths of hurricanes in time.)

And there are the lies that are aimed specifically at liberals. All those "Iran hangs gay teenager" type stories, for example, are designed to get us bleeding-heart lefties thinking, "Well, I don't want another war, but those Ayatollahs sure suck and I wouldn't be disappointed if something bad happened to them." I suppose those should only be considered half-lies, since the incidents may be real enough. The "lie" part is in the picture they paint of Iran as a country irredeemably stuck in the Middle Ages instead of one that is, in its own way, working very hard to adapt to the modern world. That and in the suggestion that the people promoting these stories actually give a damn about gay Iranian teenagers, any more than they did about the women of Afghanistan we were supposedly liberating from the Taliban.

When it comes to our own country, many of the lies are lies of omission -- from the fate of those displaced by Katrina to the worsening statistics on poverty and infant mortality that they're working overtime not to let you know about. Check out what the government has recently chosen not to report -- or not to ask businesses to report -- and you'll have a good idea of where those lies are. Remember also that it's hard to lie to people about things they know first-hand, but a lot easier to lie about the poor and dispossessed -- the homeless say, or prisoners -- those who have no voice to speak for themselves and who most middle-class Americans don't know or want to know.

I'm going to cut this off here, because otherwise I could go on all day. But my general point is that even though it's the big lies that get our attention, it's the small, unnoticed ones that really distort our understanding of the world.

[starroute]

47. Oh, yeah, here's another kind of lie

Lie: Sub-species - Limited Hangout.

Here's a story from tomorrow's New York Times about Brent Wilkes and Bill Lowery that manages to reduce the entire scandal to a matter of earmarks and possible quid pro quos, while leaving out anything that could possibly be compromising.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/washington/06wilkes.html?hp&ex=1154836800&en=b811f7519279d9b2&ei=5094&partner=homepage

For example, it says (with reference to events in 1992), "A former accountant in Washington and San Diego, Mr. Wilkes had known Mr. Lowery casually for years in California Republican circles."

Compare that to this, from the San Diego Union Tribune:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20060513-9999-1n13foggo.html

Foggo's first foreign posting was to Honduras, the center of the U.S.-backed Contra guerrilla fighters who were trying to topple the Marxist government of Nicaragua. About that time, Wilkes launched a Washington-based financial firm and accompanied lawmakers on trips to Central America, where they met with Foggo and Contra leaders. . . .

The only congressman who has been publicly identified as traveling with Wilkes in Central America is former Rep. Bill Lowery of San Diego. During the mid-1980s, Lowery was part of a Republican task force formed to build congressional support for President Reagan's aid to the Contras.

Lowery “strenuously denies” that he was involved with prostitutes on the Central American trips, said his attorney Lanny Breuer. Lowery has declined to answer questions about what he was doing in Honduras with Wilkes and Foggo. Wilkes and Lowery knew each other from Young Republican meetings at San Diego State, which was also Lowery's alma mater.

The Times article says not a word about these clearly more-than-casual connections -- and not a word about Iran-Contra, about Brent Wilkes' connection with the World Finance Corporation (as detailed by Daniel Hopsicker), or about Lowery's close ties when he was in Congress in the 80's with Don Dixon, an important figure in the S&L scandal who also went in for parties with hookers and politicians.

And it certainly doesn't breathe a word about money-laundering -- not the CIA money-laudering which was central to the S&L scandal, not the cocaine money-laundering in which the World Finance Corporation had engaged in the 70's before Wilkes relaunched it, and certainly not the more recent money-laundering which some whispers around the Net suggest was behind this entire Wilkes/Cunningham/Lowery/Lewis/defense contracting scandal.

Now, it might be unfair to expect the Paper of Record to air unfounded conspiracy theories. (That's the blogs' business, right?) But when they launch into their story by saying, "Mr. Wilkes had known Mr. Lowery casually for years in California Republican circles," that is a lie.

A damned lie, even.

[DemonFighterLives]

56. Good start!

They charge us for blowing things up and then charge us to rebuild it.

[BlueEyedSon]

45. Medicare Bill, "Death Tax", "winning" 2 elections....

[dogday]

48. Whatever they say, I believe the opposite

They speak out of both sides of their mouths and neither is the truth... You know this is how tin foil theories develop, because of the mistrust of the government.. When you can't believe anything they say, then everything they say becomes suspect and up for dissection and inspection.....

[EFerrari]

49. Well, you're onto their marketing strategy. Everything they

want to plunder from us, they have to pose as a benefit to us.

So, sure! It's "Opposite Day" every day. :P

[dogday]

51. My Grandkids will be paying off their debt