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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 08:59 PM
Original message
Iraqi civil war has already begun, U.S. troops say...
'BAGHDAD, Iraq - While American politicians and generals in Washington debate the possibility of civil war in Iraq, U.S. officers and enlisted men who patrol Baghdad daily say it has already begun.

Army troops in and around Baghdad interviewed in the last week cite a long list of evidence that the center of the nation is coming undone: Villages have been abandoned by Sunni and Shiite Muslims; Sunni insurgents have killed thousands of Shiites in car bombings and assassinations; Shiite militia death squads have tortured and killed hundreds, if not thousands, of Sunnis; and when night falls, neighborhoods become open battlegrounds.

"There's one street that's the dividing line. They shoot mortars across the line and abduct people back and forth," said 1st Lt. Brian Johnson, a 4th Infantry Division platoon leader from Houston, describing the nightly battleground that pits Sunni gunmen from the Ghazaliyah neighborhood against Shiite gunmen from the Shula district.'


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/15201432.htm
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Finally, somebody is willing to go on record, thanks troops
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. those guys & gals are in that shit every day, if anybody knows they do...
Edited on Fri Aug-04-06 09:11 PM by bridgit
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. While the mealy-mouthed politicians split hairs over the phrase,
"civil war."
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. true...
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Allawi: this is the start of civil war - July 10, 2005
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1687910,00.html

The Sunday Times :redbox: :redbox: July 10, 2005 :redbox: :redbox:

Allawi: this is the start of civil war

Hala Jaber, Amman

IRAQ’S former interim prime minister Iyad Allawi has warned that his country
is facing civil war and has predicted dire consequences for Europe and America
as well as the Middle East if the crisis is not resolved.


“The problem is that the Americans have no vision and no clear policy on how
to go about in Iraq,” said Allawi, a long-time ally of Washington.

In an interview with The Sunday Times last week as he visited Amman,
the Jordanian capital, he said:
“The policy should be of building national unity in Iraq.
Without this we will most certainly slip into a civil war.
We are practically in stage one of a civil war as we speak.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=1689688&page=1&WNT=true

Expert on Iraq: 'We're In a Civil War'

BAGHDAD, :redbox: March 5, 2006 :redbox: —

As Pentagon generals offered optimistic assessments that the sectarian violence in Iraq
had dissipated this weekend, other military experts told ABC News that Sunni and Shiite
groups in Iraq already are engaged in a civil war,
and that the Iraqi government and
U.S. military had better accept that fact and adapt accordingly.

"We're in a civil war now; it's just that not everybody's joined in," said retired
Army Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, a former military commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

"The failure to understand that the civil war is already taking place, just
not necessarily at the maximum level, means that our counter measures are inadequate
and therefore dangerous to our long-term interest.

"It's our failure to understand reality that has caused us to be late throughout this
experience of the last three years in Iraq,"
added Nash, who is an ABC News consultant.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.counterpunch.org/walsh03092006.html

:redbox: March 9, 2006 :redbox:

Neocon Advocates Civil War in Iraq as "Strategic" Policy


Daniel Pipes Finds Comfort in Muslims Killing Muslims

By JOHN WALSH

One of the abiding myths about the War on Iraq is that the neocons were too stupid
to realize that they would confront an unrelenting, indigenous resistance to their
occupation of Iraq. Unwittingly, the story line goes, they led the U.S. into a
conflict which has now produced a civil war. But this simply does not fit the facts.
The neocons clearly anticipated such an outcome before they launched their war
as Stephen Zunes documents in Antiwar.com:

snip-->
Yet the line persists that the neocons had no idea what they were getting into.
This cannot be correct as they think a lot about what they do and they plan carefully.
Not only is that charge absurd on the face of it, but it is arrogant on the part of
those who level it.
And it is the worst political mistake possible ­underestimating your adversary.

Now the neocons are beginning to advocate for civil war in Iraq quite openly. <--snip

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's been said before and repeated over and over and over again!
:banghead: :banghead:
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. It is worrisome that some neocons still claim that everything is going...
as planned. Shiites are making formal statements about retribution for the attacks against Hizbollah. Once the total conflict grows to a certain point, there may be enough support to start a major bombing campaign against Syria and/or Iran.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. Kerry: No matter what Administration tells you, there is civil war raging

John Kerry: “Administration Sending U.S. Troops into Crossfire of Escalating Civil War”



Below John Kerry’s remarks on Iraq on the floor of the Senate this afternoon. In his remarks, Kerry spoke about Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee this morning.



As prepared for delivery.



Mr. President, yesterday I was at Arlington National Cemetery for the funeral of Lance Corporal Geoffrey R. Cayer, a 20 year old from Massachusetts, and I was struck by the number of funerals taking place and the number of new headstones bearing the inscription “Operation Iraqi Freedom” and “Operation Enduring Freedom.”



One of those among the fallen is Phillip Baucus, the nephew of our friend and colleague Sen. Baucus. Phillip was a proud and brave Marine Corps Corporal who gave his life serving his country last Saturday in Anbar Province in Iraq. He was an extraordinary young man, and I know from Max what he meant to his family and what a totally devastating blow this is to all of them. My prayers are for Phillip and every family which has endured this kind of monumental loss. Phillip and Lance Corporal Cayer and all those who have given their lives are a tough reminder to all of the incredible sacrifices Americas’ children are making every day.



Mr. President, with the violence in Iraq growing worse by the day, it was stunning to hear Secretary Rumsfeld come before the Armed Services Committee this morning with a laundry list of excuses and denials about what is happening there and its consequences for the region. General Abizaid candidly acknowledged that the “sectarian violence is as bad as I’ve seen it,” that he’s rarely seen the situation “so unsettled and so volatile.” He warned of coming civil war, and that “failure to apply coordinated regional and international pressure ... will further extremism" and could lead to a widening and more perilous conflict.



But this morning Secretary Rumsfeld did not call for that kind of diplomacy, and he did not lay out a plan for that kind of leadership. Nor has President Bush reached out to undertake the kind of crisis diplomacy needed in Iraq or to leverage the regional pressure to stop Iraq from descending into irretrievable chaos.

No – Secretary Rumsfeld announced that “there's a number of good things happening… amidst all of this difficulty, the currency is fairly stable, the schools are open, the hospitals are open, the people are functioning.” Secretary Rumsfeld waxed optimistic about an Iraq where “you see people out in the fields doing things and people driving their cars and lining up for gasoline and going about their business.” He went on to say that “despite all of the difficulties, there are also some good trend lines that are occurring, and I think the period ahead is an important period.”



Mr. President, this is more than an important period, this may well be the moment that decides the security of the Middle East itself, and it’s time the Administration was candid about the situation and got to work on rescuing what’s salvageable in Iraq.



With at least 2,578 Americans killed, over 19,000 wounded, and no end in sight, we simply cannot sit idly by as more of our kids die for a policy that isn’t working. And we cannot be silent while this Administration continues to deny reality and repeat the same mistakes.



I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: this Congress has a constitutional responsibility and a moral obligation to hold this Administration accountable for making the right choices for our troops and our country.



That starts with demanding honesty when it comes to the war in Iraq. Because the bottom line is that this Administration is sending more U.S. troops into the crossfire of an escalating civil war in Iraq – and they refuse to come clean with the American people about it.

No more half measures, no more staged phony political debates -- it’s time to tell the truth about the consequences of today’s failed policy in Iraq.

No matter what the Administration tells you, there is a civil war raging in Iraq.

The President’s policy of standing down U.S. troops as Iraqis stand up has finally been exposed as nothing more than a misleading myth: in fact, we are actually increasing our overall troop presence even as they tell us that many more Iraqis soldiers have been trained -- and we’ve reportedly all but abandoned hope of withdrawing significant numbers of U.S. troops this year, even as the Iraqi President tells us that Iraqis can take over security responsibility throughout their country by the end of the year.

Yesterday, we learned more about our dangerously overstretched military when the top National Guard General warned that more than two-thirds of the Army National Guard's brigades are not combat ready.

And worst of all, there is no end in sight and no realistic plan to turn the tide.

To change course we must first confront the realities on the ground, starting by acknowledging that there is a civil war going on in Iraq. The Administration denies that because it doesn’t fit their rhetoric -- but by objective standards that is exactly what’s happening. Just look at the facts.

In the first six months of the year, 14,338 Iraqi civilians were killed, mostly in sectarian violence. Prime Minister Maliki acknowledged last week that an average of 100 Iraqi civilians are being killed every day. Just think about that for a second: 100 people killed every day. And the violence has only been getting worse: 2,669 civilians were killed in May, and 3,129 civilians were killed in June. That’s nearly 6,000 Iraqi civilians killed in the last two months alone. And since the February 22nd bombing of the Shia mosque in Samarra, the government reports that 30,359 families — or about 182,000 people — have fled their homes due to sectarian violence and intimidation

Mr. President, this is not just a civil war – by historical standards, it’s a relatively large scale civil war. In fact, a recent academic analysis published in the New York Times showed that the median number of casualties in civil wars since 1945 is 18,000. Estimates of total casualties in Iraq vary, but the number is probably at least twice that many. Larry Diamond, a former consultant to the provisional authority in Baghdad, has put it simply: "In academic terms, this is a civil war, and it's not even a small one."

The Iraqis from all sides understand what’s going on in their country – and they’re not afraid to speak the truth. Haidar al-Ibadi, a prominent Shiite legislator, said that "Certainly, what is happening is the start of the civil war. Saleh al-Mutlak, a Sunni legislator, also described the recent violence as "the start of a civil war," and another leading Sunni, Adnan Dulaimi, recently said “It’s nothing less than an undeclared civil war.”



Still, the Administration continues to deny the plain facts about the civil war just as they once downplayed the insurgency. Remember when it was first clear that chaos had given way to a determined insurgency? Secretary Rumsfeld told us they were just a bunch of “dead enders.” Vice President Cheney told us last year that the insurgency was “in it last throes.” And just look at the results. Since then, the number of Iraqi insurgents has increased by 20 percent, and the insurgency is now more than six times stronger that it was in May of 2003. And once again, it’s our troops that pay the price – in fact, the number of IED attacks on U.S. troops has nearly doubled since January.



Now, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, the Administration denies that there’s a civil war. Who do they think they’re kidding? Why not just level with the American public? Because this is one more inconvenient truth they’d prefer not to deal with. In fact, Secretary Rumsfeld said just a few months ago that if civil war did break out, Iraqi forces – not U.S. troops-- would be the ones dealing with it.



Yet not only are our U.S. troops now caught in this civil war – we’re actually sending more of them into the crossfire. That’s right: the Administration doesn’t want to talk about it, but we are actually sending more U.S. troops into Iraq.



When the President announced his plan last week to increase the U.S. troop presence in Baghdad, he said the troops would come from other areas of Iraq. He did not mention that additional troops have been sent into Iraq from Kuwait, and that current deployments were being extended as new troops arrived. He did not mention what both the Washington Post and New York Times have reported: that the total number of U.S. troops in Iraq is going to increase by several thousand. And he did not mention that recently-announced deployment schedules could bring the number of U.S. troops in Iraq even higher in the coming years.



Finally, he did not explain why this strategy will work when similar efforts have just failed. The fact is that a few months ago, U.S. and coalition troops in Baghdad increased from 40,000 to 55,000 – and the violence has only gotten worse. Now, the President says we are going to send a few thousand more U.S. troops into Baghdad. Why is this going to be any different?



One thing is clear: under this Administration’s current approach, it’s highly unlikely that we’ll be drawing down any significant numbers of U.S. troops from Iraq this year. This is despite the fact that Secretary Rumsfeld said on Wednesday that there are some 275,000 trained Iraqi security forces, with 325,000 expected to be trained by the end of the year. And General Martin Dempsey, the American general in charge of training Iraqi security forces, said in June that the new Iraqi army would be formed and at full strength by the end of this calendar year. In fact, Iraqi President Talabani declared just yesterday that Iraqis could take over security in the entire country by the end of this year.



If the Iraqis are standing up, as the Administration is telling us, why are U.S. troops not standing down? Because the President’s mantra that “as Iraqis stand up, we’ll stand down” is not a plan - it’s misleading rhetoric that now rings as hollow as “we’ll be greeted as liberators”, and “mission accomplished.” And given how bad the situation has gotten, does “stay the course” really sound any better?



This bottom line is that this approach hasn’t worked because its underlying assumption – that more troops are the real solution to the problem – is fundamentally flawed. As our generals, the Iraqi leaders, and the Secretary of State herself have told us, there is no military solution to the insurgency. And just today, Secretary Rumsfeld acknowledged that there’s no military solution to the sectarian violence. In fact, all can agree that the only hope for salvaging a measure of lasting success in Iraq is finding a political solution that all of the Iraqis can buy into.



So how do we accomplish that? By finally engaging in the intensive diplomacy that has been so inexplicably lacking from this Administration’s approach to Iraq.



We used to understand diplomacy must be the primary means of advancing America’s national security interests. We used to remember that war is the ultimate failure of diplomacy – and the best way to end it.



Unfortunately, our current diplomacy is not anywhere near as effective as it needs to be. In fact, so much of what we used to take for granted in national security policy has now been called into question.



We used to know that despite our differences in political philosophy and in perspective our two great parties could cooperate to craft international policies in our national interest.



We used to understand that the unique and historic role of the United States in world affairs required a far-sighted and multi-faceted approach to protecting our people and our interests.



We used to value as a national treasure the international alliances and institutions that enhanced our strength, amplified our voice, and reflected our traditions and ideals in maintaining a free and secure world.



We used to say politics stopped at the water's edge--we used to call on our people to share in the sacrifices demanded by freedom, and our leaders used to raise hopes and inspire trust, not raise fears and demand blind faith.



We used to measure America's strength and security by our moral authority, our economic leadership, and our diplomatic skills, as well as by the power of our military.



Think about how much things have changed, when Tom Friedman wrote just days ago that “our President and Secretary of State, although they speak with great mortal clarity, have no moral authority. That’s been shattered by their performance in Iraq.”



Key to any hope of stabilizing Iraq is changing course and engaging in the sustained diplomacy from the highest levels of America’s leadership that matches the effort of our soldiers on the ground.



History shows the results that genuine diplomacy can bring. In 1995, there was a brutal civil war in Bosnia involving Serbs, Croats and Muslims. Faced with a seemingly intractable stalemate in the midst of horrific ethnic cleansing, the Clinton Administration took action. Led by Richard Holbrooke, they brought leaders of the Bosnian parties together in Dayton, Ohio with representatives from the European Union, Russia and Britain to hammer out a peace agreement that brought relative stability to the region.



It is past time for the Administration to engage in this type of major diplomatic initiative. While an international process has begun to bring reconstruction and economic aid to Iraq, a true national compact is still needed to bring about a political solution to the insurgency and end the cycle of Sunni-Shia violence.



My strategy would help achieve this by working with the Iraqis to convene a Dayton-like summit that includes leaders of the Iraqi government, the countries bordering Iraq, the Arab League, NATO, the European Union, and the Permanent Members of the United Nations Security Council. This would enable the Iraqis to engage in the intensive diplomacy necessary to forge a comprehensive political agreement that addresses security guarantees, oil revenues, federalism, and the disbanding of the militias. And all parties would agree on a process for securing Iraq’s borders.



These are the key elements of the political agreement necessary to decrease the violence – and they are not tasks that U.S. troops can – or should – be responsible for. They are the responsibility of civilian personnel, especially Iraqis. And success will require collective effort that engages members of the international community who share our interest in a stable Iraq. To enlist their support, we must address their concerns about security in the region after we have withdrawn from Iraq. That’s why this summit should lay the groundwork for creating a new regional security structure that strengthens the security of the countries in the region and the wider community of nations.



Mr. President, we must also recognize that redeploying U.S. troops from Iraq is an essential part of a strategy for success. In fact, our own generals and the Iraqi National Security Adviser, Mr. Rubaie, tell us that the presence of large numbers of U.S. troops actually fuels the insurgency. That’s why I say that to change course now, we must acknowledge that it takes a deadline to get Iraq up on its own two feet and get American troops home. My strategy would redeploy U.S. forces from Iraq within one year in accordance with a schedule coordinated with the Iraqi Government, leaving only those forces that are critical to completing the mission of standing up Iraqi security forces, conducting targeted counter-terrorism missions, and protecting United States facilities and personnel. It also calls for keeping a rapid reaction force over the horizon in Kuwait so that we can always bring overwhelming force to bear on any concentration of enemy forces.



Coordinating a schedule for redeploying our troops is not cutting and running – it’s a key to finding the political solution that is needed to stabilize Iraq. As we know from Mr. Rubaie, this will give the Iraqi leadership the best chance to stabilize the country by empowering and legitimizing the new government with the Iraqi people, expediting the process of getting Iraqis to assume a larger role in running their country, and undermining support for the insurgency among the vast majority of Iraqis who want U.S. troops to leave.



We know that Prime Minister Maliki understands this, that’s why he has talked openly about a timeframe for the reduction of U.S. forces. We know that Ambassador Khalilzad and General Casey are discussing with the Iraqi government the formation of a joint commission to outline terms and conditions for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. We know from Mr. Rubaie that there is already “an unofficial ‘road map’ to foreign troop reductions that will eventually lead to total withdrawal of U.S. troops.” We know that General Casey has drafted a plan for significantly reducing U.S. troop levels by the end of 2007. We know that polls of Iraqis have shown that 87% – including 94% of the Sunnis and 90% of the Shia -- support their government endorsing a timeline for U.S. withdrawal.

If the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people, our Ambassador and top military commander, and the majority of Americans can see that the time has come for a timeframe for the redeployment of U.S. forces, why can’t the Bush Administration?

Think about that for a second: for over three years, the President has said that we’re prepared to stay “as long as it takes,” and during this time the insurgency has only grown stronger and sectarian killings are now at an all time high. Does anyone really think more of the same will solve the problem?



We simply cannot allow the Administration to undermine this key aspect of a successful strategy in Iraq because they are too stubborn to admit that the timeline they have so adamantly opposed is now clearly an important part of the way forward. The bottom line is that by the middle of next year, the presence of large numbers of U.S. troops will have served its purpose. That does not mean we will be abandoning Iraq, it simply means our involvement will change.
>>>>>>>
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. So Iraq turn corner
Now new reason. If we leave get civil war
See so much proof
Whee damn deep hole one in.
Stupid is Stupid
Dig dig right through earth
What need dig until reach moon :rofl:
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. hi...
:hi:
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Hey hello
:hug:

Just going around doing my :rofl:

Me think DU need big dose of :rofl:

Many too upset

And hey lots of disruptor around they good.

But I :rofl: well
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. you got that right friend, so many prickly pears around here thinking...
their thoughts to be singular & pristine :rofl: what a hoot :rofl: :hi: :hi: :hug:
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yeah me look at post
Not get angry and think how to get a good :rofl: post in reply

Gee they do not like :rofl: they like anger more

But gee me make different to full of :rofl:

Can not be help when me explode

Even my PA do not want to talk to me for 2 days

Just say

"Dont want talk to me. Me in nasty mood." :rofl:

Damn hard being make look in mirror see nasty guy :rofl:
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. you're making sense to me, pal...
B-)
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R - the faster we accept this, the sooner we can...
Edited on Fri Aug-04-06 09:06 PM by Cooley Hurd
...get the fuck out of that hellhole!(on edit: that the US created... :cry:)
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. works for me...
:thumbsup: :patriot:
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. This was predicted by the military before Junior & Co forced this invasion
DAMN DAMN DAMN
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Duh.
Hell, I knew this would happen before we invaded. Anyone even slightly familiar with the history of Iraq could easily see what a foolish fantasy our worthless president was entertaining.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Exactly
What a mess they created
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. clear as the nose on his face he cut off just to spite it yes...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
45. And some Bushbootlickers testified "no one could predict civil war"
when the truth is that almost every military advisor predicted it and every Democratic senator who was in the military.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. Just now?
:shrug:

er... I think that's been going on for quite sometime!

They mean that the asshats are finally getting around to admitting it!!
:nuke: :grr:
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. the tipping point has tipped...
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It 'tipped' quite awhile ago!!!
Edited on Fri Aug-04-06 09:34 PM by Breeze54
That was my point!! Just because you're just hearing about it,
in those terms now, doesn't mean it hasn't been happening!!
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. i have no idea who you're trying to convince, as a practical matter...
these issues have to be printed somewhere for the consumption of someone other than just you & me is my point!!!

search my posts, it is a matter of common knowledge that i wanted to "tip" bush's 1st inaugural limo onto it's roof talking about "tipping" sheesh get a grip
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MindMatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Can anybody define "civil war"?
Because it seems to me Iraq's Civil War started about 9 months after we invaded. At first, the resistance was directed at the US -- er, I mean the grand coalition for freedom fries. At about that time, it became clear to the various Iraqi factions that the USA was never going to be able to enforce security to any significant degree outside the Green Zone. And so the factions turned their attention to fighting one another for prominence in the post-USA Iraq, and so it has been the past couple of years.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the civil war began as soon as they stopped fighting us and began fighting one another.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. it seemed a policy of saddam's that he continuously suppress...
those elements that would have contributed to a civil war scenario...in the absence of saddam, which as you mention was quite some time ago, these various forces began to coalesce against each other in fairly short order

and a belated welcome to du, MindMatter :hi: :kick:
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. Well as Rumsfeld said
"it's a tough slog." Yah.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. yeah, and the cold war lasted 40 years...but it was a "cold war" not...
a "hot" one; that crazy old shit rumsfeld has to go too x(
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. The fucking shit has really hit the fan in the ME
And it is almost entirely due to the infantile macho-man idiocy of the murdering jackass in the WH.

He really needs to be tried and convicted for war crimes - the fun is over and now it's time for serious consequences.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. most assuredly true, sir...
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. I only wish I had the power to see to it
I am a very pragmatic person - I realize the advantages for our side having a hated buffoon in the WH.

But at some point it's not funny anymore. The buffoon act is tiring and now he has to be treated like a grown-up and face the consequences of his horrible actions. It's no accident that people are not happy in the world and the world's social/economic status is stagnating and actually moving backwards in time. Who is going to make this monster pay for his crimes?
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. that was a common theme on a couple outlets this evening, that...
swaggering wannabe cowboy braggadocio that got us all here & knee deep in shit-stank may have made the opposition (us) run for the hills (for some reason i still don't quite understand :shrug:) may have seemed cute & somehow timely; but filled with lies, hatred & death, it has all worn too so very thin of late, like Coulter's three day old make-up & black roots so that the entire world now knows it was just that: braggadocio
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. We need to win back congress and then make it very clear
to our representatives that we want the war ended and those who started the war and occupation brought to justice. It will be that or back to the private sector the next election.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. yes! and winning back congress should not be considered a cake walk...
nothing can be taken for granted, nothing can be put past this republican gang of thieves congenial liars; nothing!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Remember, they are an amoral bunch. Gaining and holding power
is the only thing on their agenda.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. "they are an amoral bunch" should be carved on a stone & rolled...
through every town till this 'thing' is over actually since these last 12+ years really, cause they were operative throughout the Clinton Admin causing much of the woe that stifled America & her responses at that time too

now that they run the whole show it is clear to see, sadly after the spilling of some much innocent blood & treasure, they that never knew what they were talking about from the very beginning
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I signed up 14 volunteers in the time I was away
from my computer. One appears to be a very good activist. We have to win back congress. We will have a challenge in the senate, but I think if we work hard enough, we can roll over the house races.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. thank you, peace & cheers...
:toast:
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. I am pumped. I love doing such things.
Monday is the Amnesty International Ceasefire rally. I can't wait.

We have a 4 PM press conference, and try as I may, they won't let me weasel out of it.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. we need you, alfredo, we need your passion...
:hug:
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Thank you. I just want to make sure we stop the march to
Edited on Sat Aug-05-06 07:12 PM by alfredo
fascism.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
29. I can't imagine
what those poor families are going through.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. to wantonly create a hellish world of chaos & death is imo...
an 'otherly', unholy past-time
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. It's not a civil war it's a Faith Based War...
The deadly combination of mixing Church and State, in all it's gory gory gory!
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Separate Church & State Now is my thought...
'church' is not required to understand civil governance, reason & prudence are better suited imo after having woefully interpreted scripture in far too many cases; fundamentalism, of any kind, has surrendered it's claim to civil governance imfo
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