I gotta know what you think.

[boston bean]

I have vacillated between these two bad choices for over six years.

Do George Bush's policies lean more toward Neo-Con policies or Christian Fundamentalist policies?

In my mind, I think that at some point the two ends meet and form a circle; but I can't for the life of me decide which of these tendencies he is truly more aligned with.

I'm looking forward to the result and hearing other peoples feelings and thoughts.

[SmokingJacket]

1. Whichever works for HIM at the moment.

I don't think the guy cares for ideology at all -- he's a pure opportunist.

But that means, I think, he's more of a neo-Con than a fundamentalist, and he only tries to please the fundamentalists because they make up so much of the base.

[JuniperLea]

2. I think he's wearing Christianity like white-wash

And he's using Christians for his own evil.

There are going to be a lot of pissed off Christians some day. Won't be pretty. No, it won't.

[Rosemary2205]

43. lipstick on a pig......

or airfreshener in an outhouse - take yer pick.......

[QuestionAll...]

3. neo con. they use whatever is at hand to spill more bombs...

and religion has always been a bomb for the sheep.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. neo-con. He's a fake Christian

for the purpose of brainwashing the sheeple and it worked...just like his fake ranch and fake 'props' at his neighbors house in Crawford. There's nothing real about the psycho. It's all a facade.

[EFerrari]

5. I think *he* couldn't tell you the difference because he never

learned to do that kind of thinking. He's a front man for NeoCon pipe dreams who panders to Christian fundamentalists -- to cover for the election theft.

There were not 3 MILLION more Christian fundamentalists in 2004 than there were in 2000. It's just dressing.

I'd love someone to ask him to name four countries in the Middle East or four books of the New Testament! :shrug:

So, I can see how it would be difficult to choose which he's coming from because, he's not really coming from either. Junior comes from privilege. That's his school of thought and his basic concern. Or, unconcern.

[bliss_eternal]

10. Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner...!

:hi:

Whenever I hear anyone try to label him as a "man of God" or one that is trying to bring Biblical policies to the world of heathens, it makes me angry and quite ill. No bigger hypocrisy has ever existed in this world, as far as I'm concerned.

[EFerrari]

12. Even though I'm a lapsed Catholic, I feel the same way.

It makes me sick!

:hi:

[bliss_eternal]

14. We've lapsed too...

Dh attended Catholic schools growing up. I was brought up with Catholicism and Christianity. Dh got really pissed with the priest molestation scandals.

We were briefly attending an alleged non-denominational church. One day the pastor decided to speak his praises for W in his sermon. :eyes::puke::crazy: This was long before the elections. We haven't been in another church since. Sadly, too many churches in this area are pro-W.

[EFerrari]

20. We're thinking of joining the Unitarian Jihad

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL

:evilgrin:

[bliss_eternal]

28. They look pretty cool...!

Please share if you do go or join up, I'd love to hear your feedback!

...If I could get over the drive involved, I would go to the church mentioned here:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_11/007521.php

They sound promising--of course I'd have to go and check it out to see if it's a good fit, but the website is amazing!

They have gay and lesbian groups, they've been supportive of immigrants (legal and illegal), women in leadership positions in the church, anti-death penalty AND they are very politically active and more than a little outspoken (against) this administration (and the religious right)!

I got excited just reading some of their lecture notes posted at their website. :P

Check them out here:
http://www.allsaints-pas.org/all_saints_church.htm

[EFerrari]

29. Did you go to that link? I've never seen a better invitation.

:)

[bliss_eternal]

32. I know...they rock, right...?

I've GOT to go!! Gas prices and drive be damned. ;) Some episcopalians are pretty tight assed but this place looks SO different...

[EFerrari]

33. Jon Carroll rocks. And that's my last word.

:P

:hi:

[bliss_eternal]

37. I KNEW IT...

I knew when I posted that link, that's what you were going to respond to! :P

I was SO mad I missed that...

[EFerrari]

40. The smaller quiet graces get us through a lot, don't they?

:hi:

[QuestionAll...]

25. lapsed here too as well...

just got tired of all the bad news of hell and brimstone because I could never be perfect.

of course, the priests were, so perfect they bambozzled most of my grandmothers cash from her making her believe that would get her closer to Jesus.

[EFerrari]

34. There's no future in being perfect. Maybe that's why they keep pushing

the rapture.

lol

:)

/oops

[QuestionAll...]

49. what a demographic, a world filled with imperfects...

I'm sure they thought of that one and harvested well.

[EFerrari]

53. Enough to weave a skirt for their theft anyway. n/t

[bliss_eternal]

39. Welcome to the club, QuestionAll...

there's many like us! Lapsed, frustrated, etc. There are churches and congregations out there for people like us--it just takes some digging to find them sometimes... :hi:

[QuestionAll...]

54. my 'church' has become people.

in the little ways I have and admitting I have failed some along the way.
don't need no membership card for that or an unholy expensive structure.

[EFerrari]

61. That's one of the nicest, sanest things I've read here in weeks.

Thanks. :)

[lisainmilo]

6. TALKS THE TALK

but doesn't walk it......He uses the christian platform is all....when he needs to

[boston bean]

7. I understand that many think his faith is fake.

I don't know whether I believe that or not.

I am not saying that his faith makes him righteous. As a matter of fact, I think its loony.

But many of his policies do seem to go directly with the born again or fundamentalist agenda, which I guess in turn may very well be the neo-con agenda as well.

I think the two are so very close that it may be hard to tell which he or others may be.

Are they one in the same? Or are they two separate groups with individual agendas. I am beginning to see them as one in the same, I guess.

[EFerrari]

9. They overlap in the part where they both think that they know better

than other people -- the authoritarian aspects overlap.

But no Christian could say, "Nobody likes beheadings" witha straight face. And no NeoCon could say, "It's God's will" with a straight face because they know better than God what is best for the whole Middle East.

[Arkansas Granny]

27. I don't feel qualified to judge whether his faith is fake or real. I do

think that he uses his faith, or his appearance of faith, as the case may be, to influence people to support him. I watched a PBS Frontline show called "The Jesus Factor" just before the 2004 election and they examined his ties to the church. One quote really stood out to me:

"DOUG WEAD, Advisor to Pres. George H.W. Bush: The message did come home. My God, you could win the White House with nothing but evangelicals."

If you haven't watched it you can read the transcript here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/etc/script.html

Or you can view it online here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/view/

It is truly an eye opener.

[EFerrari]

38. I saw that. I'm sure his faith is real to him. And I'm sure what he says

on camera is scripted whenever possible.

God, I miss John F. Kennedy. I MISS Bill Clinton. I even miss BARRY GOLDWATER.

lol

[Fridays Child]

8. He's a neocon wolf in fundy Christian clothing.

He's not a Christian--not by any stretch of the word.

[Breeze54]

44. Agreed!

[H2O Man]

11. Keep in mind that

Bush was a Christian Fundamentalist long before he was elected president. It wasn't until he began to seriously campaign for the republican nomination that the neoconservatives recognized him as a vehicle to transport them to power. They selected Condi Rice to school him. This is well documented.

[EFerrari]

13. Are we sure? I mean, this isn't like being from Texas or having

a wonderful marriage or having a ranch, is it?

The man is autistic. I think that throws me off. My hubby is somewhat autistic as well. And he has a relation to Christianity. (Yikes, I just compared my best friend to Junior!)

lol

[bliss_eternal]

19. I totally agree that he's autistic...

but I'm not sure about his standing. He has all the traits of being a neo-con thug. At the same time, he knows all the issues that seem to bring the fundies to his feet. :shrug:

It's a tough call. Probably not a right or wrong here. :)

[EFerrari]

22. When he speaks off the cuff, he's lost. Lost.

:shrug:

[bliss_eternal]

30. Oh yeah---if he's not scripted, forgetaboutit!

He seems the kind of guy that needs written scripts before speaking AND schedules to tell him what to do everyday...all the way down to:

1. get out of bed.

2. walk to bathroom.

3. sit on toilet (make sure pants are down first)...

I wonder if Rove holds it for him, and makes sure the seat is up... :P Wouldn't want him to fall in...

stupidest. man. ever.

[boston bean]

15. Can I ask which you voted, if you did? I have been going back

and forth between the two.

Sometimes I feel strongly he's just a neo-con in fundamentalist clothing and at others I'm like this guy is a religious nut and the two just fit together really nicely.

Of course you know you don't have to tell me how you voted, but I do respect your opinion.

:toast:

[EFerrari]

16. (I know you're asking H2O Man but I didn't vote because

I sort of don't buy either. :shrug: )

[boston bean]

17. If I could edit the poll, I would add

crazy assed son of a bitch.

that would have settled it I guess.

:crazy:

[EFerrari]

18. LOL!

:rofl:

[Arkansas Granny]

21. Neo-Con. He panders to the fundies for their support, but he's

just using them. His real loyalties lie with the neo-cons. He has included PNAC members in his cabinet and has let PNAC shape his policies. He uses his "Christianity" as a political tool to gain support, not something that really influences his policies.

[EFerrari]

23. Do you think he chose his Cabinet, AG?

I have a hard time seeing him choosing a tie. But, that may be my lack of imagination. lol

[Arkansas Granny]

55. Since much of his cabinet and other advisors are the same

people who were involved in Bush I's administration, no, I don't think he chose his cabinet. I don't really think GHWB had that much influence over the selections that were made, but the people who got him elected certainly did.

IMO, GWB was groomed for the presidency because of his name recognition and the fact that he could be manipulated by those who really hold the power in Washington. He was willing to go along with the deal because of his highly inflated ego and his desire to show "Poppy" that he could be president, too ("my dog's better than your dog"). He is nothing but the PNAC puppet.

[EFerrari]

60. That's pretty much how I see it, AG. And I don't see him as

recognizing his situation much.

And *that* is scary. Not to have an adult in the Executive.

[boston bean]

24. Are these people fundmentalists as well though? I don't know

the answer to that question, but I think they act like fundamentalists.

And I would take a good guess that they are. No matter what religion I am sure they lean to the heavily to the right.

So which came first, fundamentalism or neo conservatives, or are they one in the same?

[Breeze54]

51. "What is a Neo-Conservative?" Read this!!

http://www.holology.com/neocon.html

NEO-CONNED

snip-->

Neo-conservatism is where the theological and ideological goals of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians in America and the militant, conservative factions inside and outside Israel, as well as many Zionist sympathizers in both countries, overlap. Neo-conservatives have been around in various forms for decades, seeing a resurgence of influence during the Reagan administration and a lull during the elder Bush and Clinton administrations. The overt influence they exert may wax and wane but the neo-conservatives rarely take the blame for their own mistakes and are quite adept at deflecting responsibility and re-emerging in a slightly different form years later. They always come back because they never really disappear. They use a multitude of private organizations, lobbyist groups, and other superficially legitimate facades with benign titles, like the American Enterprise Institute, to influence policy-making and generally further their agenda; they are the very definition of a special interest group, hijacking democratic institutions to further a narrow agenda. The neo-Conservatives are not all the same but they do fall into three primary categories.

American Christian fundamentalists really believe that when the Israel of the Bible, which they interpret to mean the modern Zionist state of Israel, controls Babylon and the Holy Land in its entirety, among other things, then this series of events will usher in Armageddon and the second coming of Jesus which will whisk every Christian believer up to heaven while everyone else writhes in torment and warfare down on Earth. This view is taken from a literal interpretation of the fever-dream book of Revelation in the New Testament of the Bible. President George W. Bush who considers himself a "born-again" Christian falls into this category. Many of the fundamentalist Christians under the neo-con label are actually anti-Semitic in the colloquial meaning of the phrase. Their alliance will appear ironic without an understanding of the apocalyptic Biblical theology they believe in that maintains the unrestricted Jewish claim to the Holy Land. <--snip

More at link....

Very informative and interesting read!

[bliss_eternal]

35. That seemed to be the case after the election...

when he didn't immediately declare martial law on roe v. wade, the religious right was pretty mad! I read quite a few things on the internet about that, and there were rumblings from the religious right about taking things in their own hands. That scared me...I thought we'd see more clinic bombings and such.

I think that had a lot to do with the alito nomination. He had to try to "pay back" the fundies. :hi:

[EFerrari]

26. It's interesting that at this point, there have been few votes

for the religious affiliation.

And, that's the most genuine thing about the image that we've been sold. Hmm.

[Breeze54]

36. Bush has become religious conservatism de facto leader!

He's been pandering to them even before he was running for the presidency!

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug04/Giroux0804.htm
George Bush’s Religious Crusade Against Democracy: Fundamentalism as Cultural Politics

by Henry A. Giroux
www.dissidentvoice.org
August 4, 2004

snip-->
Believing he is on a direct mission from God, President Bush openly celebrates
the virtues of evangelical Christian morality, prays daily, and expresses his
fervent belief in Christianity in both his rhetoric and policy choices.
For example, while running as a presidential candidate in 2000,
Bush proclaimed that his favorite philosopher was Jesus Christ.

Further, in a speech in which he outlined the dangers posed by Iraq,

he stated:

“We do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them,
placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life, and all of history.
May He guide us now.”<4>

Stephen Mansfield in his book,
The Faith of George W. Bush, claims that Bush told James Robinson, a Texas preacher:

“I feel like God wants me to run for president. I can’t explain it, but I sense
my country is going to need me.... I know it won’t be easy on me or my family,
but God wants me to do it.” <--snip

How quickly everyone forgets!! I didn't!!! :grr:

[EFerrari]

50. Cool. Who was writing for him then? Because THAT brain

did not produce THOSE statements.

Ugh! In a way, Junior is the ultimate colonized entity. Tabula Raza. I bet you my good dog, his whole life has been scripted for him. :scared:

[Breeze54]

57. I can't remember the name of the movie? or...

documetary I saw about * ... maybe it was "Bush's Brain" ?
...that showed his history. He started meeting with fundies, "church elders"
who counseled him about alcoholism and politics, etc.
Do you recall that scene, where he is going into a 'closed session'
at a church, for his 'counseling' with a bunch of fundies??
:shrug:

I suspect they also helped him to "write" a lot of the shit coming out of his mouth!
:grr:
After all, they are his supposed counselors!

[EFerrari]

59. As a writer, I can't help but recognize writing.

That's how I began to understand how "put together" he is.

:shrug:

[bliss_eternal]

45. A former friend, tried to insist * is a man of God because

* spoke out against gay marriage. Prior to this, he and I agreed on many points about * (all negative).

This probably tells you why this person is no longer my friend. :mad::puke:

I don't understand how some people are so easily brainwashed, based on their shared bigotry. So disgusting.

[EFerrari]

48. So, you have to hate people to love your God? Neato. n/t

[proud patriot]

31. he's talked the RWfundie talk but walked the neocon walk

only recently did he give the RWfundie anything
by the stem cell veto

[bliss_eternal]

41. So true...you don't think Alito was for them, too?

... just curious as to your thoughts. :hi:

[proud patriot]

56. more so than Roberts that's for sure

I just had the veto fresh on the brain :think:

Yes I believe Alito is one creepy RWer
His family creeped me out most of all :scared:
Alito was a concession to the RWfundie leaders IMO.

[Breeze54]

42. He gave them ....'hope'.....

and strung them along for the last six years!
He's a liar, as we all know and far from religious!
A drunken, used car salesman is more his speed!
:P

[bliss_eternal]

47. That photo is so funny...

:rofl:

[Sinti]

46. How about puppet of Con - or Son of a Con?

His handlers just use the fundamentalist jingo to keep the little people following the leader - opiate for the masses and all. I doubt he genuinely believes it himself, and I know his handlers/advisers/bosses don't.

[DemonFighterLives]

52. Neo con

with the fundies following blindly toward Armageddon.
His brand of Christianity does not coincide with mine.

[Lochloosa]

58. Whatever Cheney says he is...N/T needed

[EFerrari]

62. Yep. n/t

[Larry Ogg]

63. There is not a religious drop of blood in Gorge Bush.

Claiming to be a Christian gets him a lot of votes and in turn a lot of cannon fodder.

[Marie26]

64. Neither, IMO

He is aligned with the big-business corporate oil men. Their interests are his interests. The rest is just for show.