Boy, 8, accused of playground sex assault

[ECH1969]

An 8-year-old boy accused of sexually assaulting a second-grade classmate last week at a St. Paul elementary school now faces expulsion.

The boy is believed to have approached an 8-year-old girl on a slide, forced her to kiss his private parts and then simulated sex on her, according to school district officials and members of the girl's family.

The slide was enclosed by a tube, making it impossible for the teacher on duty to see what was happening, said Marilyn Baeker, acting area superintendent who oversees Four Seasons. The teacher learned of the incident from another student on the playground, Baeker said.

Police referred the case to a Ramsey County program for young offenders, All Children Excel. The program aims to identify children age 9 and under who are at high risk of becoming what is known as serious, violent and chronic offenders. The boy was suspended and has been recommended for expulsion, said district spokesman Rich Goldsmith.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/news/local/15193499.htm
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What is going on with society today?

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. Betcha five bucks that boy has been sexually assaulted himself

Let's call it a hunch.



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[TahitiNut]

2. No bet here. The odds are very good that he has been.

That's not something he'd learn on Sesame Street.

[KoKo]

21. No...but he might have been watching "MTV" or his dad's or mom's porn

tapes...or maybe any one of a number of Soap Operas and other stuff on the Cables and Networks. :shrug:

It's not hard to find what an 8 year old could simulate out there these days. But, kids used to see that stuff when they lived on Farms way back when. It just didn't look so hyped as the crap that we are exposed to out there today that passes for "human interaction."

And..."age appropriate" is a word from an oldie time that's way gone and not applicable to our modern times in the 21st Century.

[bloom]

37. I didn't know

they showed oral sex on soap operas or MTV these days. I don't watch them - so I wouldn't know.

[KoKo]

40. huh?........

[bloom]

44. From the OP

One might guess that the boy learned oral sex, etc. somewhere - and you suggested that he might have learned this stuff from Soap Operas or MTV.

I think porn is more likely - or someone physically abusing him.

[ck4829]

3. No doubt about that

Even so, that boy should not be in the public school setting, but it is possible to rehabilitate him IMHO.

[KitSileya]

5. rehabilitate?

Sounds like he's a perp, not a victim.

God, I hope they find who taught him to do that, and throw the book at the person or persons.:mad: Grrrr.

[Fridays Child]

15. There may be some hope of rehabilitating a child of that age.

It's worth the effort, anyway. You're right though: the child is a perpetrator. In view of that, I think he should be punished but the punishment needs to be age appropriate and meaningful. A face-to-face apology offered to the girl and her parents would be a start, and I agree that he should be expelled. Beyond that, I'm not sure what punishment would have the maximum desired impact on an eight-year old. He's barely of the developmental age where children develop the ability to form intent. It's a tough question--definitely one for the child psychologists.

[tocqueville]

17. rehabilitation ? perpetrator ?

Jesus Christ. Why not castrate him right away ?

the inhibitions must sit VERY deep. Blame the fucking Bible thumpers.

[Fleshdancer]

18. well if he did force the girl to do something....

then something has to happen. What message does it give to the girl that a man who does this to her gets punished but if a student does it, then it's ok?

[tocqueville]

26. Nobody saw anything

"The boy is believed to have approached an 8-year-old girl on a slide, forced her to kiss his private parts and then simulated sex on her, according to school district officials and members of the girl's family.
The slide was enclosed by a tube, making it impossible for the teacher on duty to see what was happening, said Marilyn Baeker, acting area superintendent who oversees Four Seasons."

then they start talking about "assault" "poor little girl" "sex crime"

wake up people...

IF, and I said IF he used force, that is a different behaviour, which is disturbing and must be approached. If no bodyharm was done it's still a psychiatric matter, a matter of counseling.

NOTHING HAPPENED PROBABLY. Except that all those good souls that go to Sunday School and cheat on eachother wives have probably devastated two innocent children for life. Only for the sake of their own perverted views about sexuality.

Have you asked yourself why there are so many rapes in the US Army ? the figures are staggering. How come there is a more rare occurence in similar men/women Armies in Europe ?

something is definitely wrong here

[Fleshdancer]

33. that's why I was careful to say "if" the girl was forced

I have no problems with the usual childhood activity of "show me yours and I'll show you mine" type stuff but I have a big problem with all forms of bullying including forced sexual activity. As a woman who was once a girl who had a few bad experiences (one is described down thread) I can't not look at this from the girl's perspective.

[sadiesworld]

34. So you've decided that the little girl is lying and have substituted

your own set of facts.

How bizarre.

[tocqueville]

41. the girl hasn't talked

"The girl's grandmother said she has seen the girl several times since the incident and that she still seems to be suffering. She has not asked her granddaughter about the incident directly, at the request of the girl's father."

even if the girl has "talked" I can imagine the reactions about the incident when the whole hullabaloo exploded. She probably feels guilty even if nothing serious happened. Imagine being met by parents and teachers with plenty of OMG! OMG! even if nothing happened.

A recent case of "pedophilia" in France where 20 people were sent to jail WHEN NOTHING HAPPENED (one of them committed suicide) and people were set free and got compensations, was based on "testimonies" extracted by "psychologists". The cops started to get aware of something was wrong when the "explicit" sexual stories told by the children involved were so fantastic that they couldn't be real. For example "he forced me to fellate a donkey"... in the middle of a city where everybody lived in appartments... But the judges and jury bought it on the first trial.

[sadiesworld]

43. At this point no one (but you) is even arguing that this did not occur.

Obviously, additional investigation is necessary, but I am at a loss as to why you feel the need to create your own story here w/o access to any additional facts.

You seem to be most interested in discussing the relative merits of sex play b/t eight year olds--why not just start a separate thread as opposed to mangling this report?

[Midlodemocrat]

42. From personal experience, I think the story is true.

A neighbor who lived two doors away, and has since, thankfully, moved had a 13yo son who was having sex with his 8yo sister for over a year. Dad walked in on them and caught them. The 13yo had the 7yo brother 'watching'.

As a clinical psychotherapist, I knew from the get go that there was something wrong in that house. The two youngest kids were in my backyard every day playing and finally after three weeks, I went down to find out why Mom hadn't come down to find out if I was a murderer or not. The 8yo was very inappropriate with the older boys, including my 10yo, at the time, son and the other kids who would hang around here. I knew something was going on. I finally called child protective services, but nothing was done until Dad caught the kids together. Older brother just got out of a treatment facility where he was staying. He was supposed to be there for 18 months, but got caught having sex so much, it ended up being 4 years. Apparently, he also decided to come out.

The kids were filthy. The house was filthy. Both parents smoked like chimneys, (no flames, please, but I think we could all agree that smoking in the car and in the house isn't in the best interest of the kids). When I would call my youngest in for lunch, the two little ones always asked if they could eat over because 'our mom isn't going to feed us today'.

A more dysfunctional family hasn't been formed. Both parents were cheating on each other and ended up divorced.

I know the media fucks up, but I don't doubt this story. Not for a minute.

[KitSileya]

35. Actually, I think I was misunderstood.

When I said "sound's like he's perpetrator, not a victim", I meant that using the word rehabilitate made it sound like ck4829 thought this 8-year old was a hardened criminal. I disagreed. I should have phrased my answer differently. I actually lean more towards your point of view, if it's established that this boy isn't acting out sexual abuse he himself has experienced. If the boy isn't a sexual abuse victim, he should of course face punishment if he forced the girl - if they were playing, it's one thing, but if he was forcing her, that's another.

[KitSileya]

28. I'm not sure punishment can be given in this case.

If it turns out that the boy is repeating what has happened to him, he's a victim of sexual abuse. If that is the case (and I doubt very much it isn't) he shouldn't be punished, but rather taught what is correct behavior, along with getting counselling, of course. Children imitate the behavior they learn from adults. At 8 years old, he's better off with serious counselling, and being withdrawn from that school, or even placed in foster care if it turns out family members are abusing him. Of course, the girl must get counselling too. If the boy is withdrawn from school, the girl won't have to see him every day, but wouldn't an expulsion follow him his whole academic career?

[Fridays Child]

38. Punishment, for him, should be discipline, and that means teaching.

I agree, he doesn't need punishment in the sense that he should be incarcerated. An apology is important but it should probably be preceded by intensive counseling. Expulsion is also important because that little girl has the right to feel safe at her school. And, if the person who has abused him--an aspect of this case about which I have little doubt--is a member of his household, the boy should be removed from that home.

[JuniperLea]

4. My first thought exactly... n/t

[helderheid]

8. No doubt in my mind.

[tocqueville]

6. this is probably grossly exagerated

as many of those stories. Besides it's normal for many kids of that age and even earlier to engage in that kind of "sexual" games without being subject to molestation from adults. SExuality doesn't reveal itself in a big bang at the age of 14. Many kids masturbate at the age of 5, both boys and girls, then give up because there are funnier things to do. As long the kids are not using force, there is no need to intervene. Intervention and punishment can create dangerous sexual traumas later.

I'm sorry it's only in puritan America among Western counties those stories hit the news and become legal matters.
But of course I'm just a perverted European...

[ECH1969]

7. You don't think this should be a legal matter?

[tocqueville]

it isn't in Europe what I know of

it's called "playing doctor" and has existed as long mankind has existed. If it is a repeated behaviour, a fixation it can be the object of counseling, a medical matter. Why bring in the law in all that ? most of the time no harm is being done. It's the perverted fantasy of perverted adults that should be brought to court.

There was a case a couple of years ago of a Swiss boy of the same age that pulled down his pants and peed on a playground. A little girl saw it. And a teacher. The boy was arrested. The family had to leave the US to avoid prosecution. This was widely reported in European media and created outrage here. Most Europeans that watch this on TV think that Americans have horrible double standards regarding sex. This is NOT good for the image of America...

But what do we know ?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Playing Doctor Is Fun

A woman I work with freaked out because she got a call from her five year old son's school because he was caught engaging in mutual masturbation with another boy his age. I told her she shouldn't be concerned because it part of normal experimentation.


In this instance it's alleged that force was involved. That aspect is troubling.

[malaise]

24. playing doctor and nurse

is par for the course in childhood and a non-event in most countries on the planet.
spacing.

[SmokingJacket]

45. Well, that's a rare and bizarre situation, even for the US.

If I called the cops every time I saw a little boy pee on the playground... well, let's just say I'm glad I haven't.

However, if a child is forcing another child to kiss his privates, chances are good that kid has been molested and might well be on that road himself. He should get counselling and be watched carefully, though arresting a kid is absurd, imho.

[TygrBright]

10. ouch.... Don a full set of flameproof longies, toqueville...

...as this is an area where Americans are POSITIVE that they are right and anyone offering any other viewpoint is either a) wrong and/or b) evil.

CAVEAT (for my own safety): I do not condone sexual exploitation of children!!

That said, I tend to agree that there is a little irrational overkill in Americans' attitudes and beliefs about sexuality and human development, the sexual development of youth & children, etc.

Me, I played various 'sex games' with peers in childhood (ooooo, NAUGHTY!!) and survived without becoming permanently emotionally scarred or a criminal. Some of the 'games' that were played with me were not exactly 'consensual' either. (IOW, I would have foregone them if I had thought I could get away with burking a Double Devil Dare, etc.)

Kids, even those raised in very nurturing environments, well protected from sleazy crap and television (we didn't have one until I was nearly a teen) etc., STILL start developing sexually long before puberty, and expressing curiousity, experimentation, etc. in the peer group is a pretty common (not to say 'normal') phenomenon.

trepidatiously,
Bright in Asbestos longies

[Nutmegger]

12. Are you European?

Well I'm not but I agree. :)

[TygrBright]

13. nah, born & raised in the straight-laced upper Midwest.... n/t

[xchrom]

25. i was raised in illinois.

and i am most definitely in your camp.

[tocqueville]

16. of course I do the same caveat

it's not the point here.

These matters have been widely discussed in Scandinavian countries where the taboos have been broken. Everybody agrees that punishment and moral preachings at that age only create sexual offenders later. Children have different periods. There is a period when they avoid all contacts with the opposite sex ("eeeew girls germs").
Others when they "play" stuff they have seen like "mommy kissing Santa". It's very innocent in 99% of the cases.

flame on

[malaise]

14. 100% correct

That's a non-event in my part of the world.

[TankLV]

19. "Sexuality doesn't reveal itself in a big bang at the age of 14". WRONG!!

This is completely false.

I and all my close friends were VERY aware by age 9 of such things.

And this was during the late 50's/early 60's.

Your supposition couldn't be more wrong...

[Poll_Blind]

23. TankLV, I think you grossly-misunderstood the post you replied to.

No heat, I'm just saying. Both the quote you selected to respond to and your reponse support the same idea.

PB

[tocqueville]

27. that's exactly what I meant

it starts before

[Cerridwen]

32. If they were playing games, cool

If it was "forced" as noted in the article, not so cool.

Not all of us in the U.S. claim our Puritan ancestors' mores.

:evilgrin:

[Poll_Blind]

9. When I was in third grade another third grader (a girl) unzipped my...

...Toughskins and tried to fellate me- all in one rather fluid and disturbingly deft movement. And that was in the late 70's. I'm still not sure what the hell she was thinking and the details are lascivious enough to remain private forever but still...sometimes kids just do weird things. I'm not, in any way at all, trying to exculpate this child but the question posed at the end of the message is only partially relevant given my own experiences. I also want to make a point of saying that I had no part in this- this was very much an assault by her on me despite how it may sound.

  I do believe that the oversexualization of the young in American society is a disturbing- strike that, seriously disturbing trend which is under-reported if only because the commercial exploitation of our children is a extremely lucrative business for product manufacturers. Between my girlfriend and I we have 3 boys but we often watch other children. The first time I saw a "Bratz" or "Brats" doll I was like "What the fuck is this sick shit?" I was out at Target with my girlfriend and there were some young- they must have been under 13, girls who were into the makeup. They looked more like kabuki performers than women but while I acknowledge that every girl or every boy in an era couldn't wait to become a woman or man (for whatever nebulous trappings they presume it brings) there is a real pressure exerted by the media and especially advertising on our children to oversexualize themselves.

  Sorry, stuff like pre-teen beauty pageants, some of these dolls that little girls play with, the level of violence not-so-slowly creeping into children's media (like that children's magazine doing a full issue on careers in the Army, if you caught that one) are real hot-button issues for me.

PB

[Fleshdancer]

11. What is it about third grade?

When I was in third grade a group of boys chased me on the playground (pretty normal, right?) but when one caught me I was thrown to the ground and the boys stood around me in a circle and started grabbing my crotch and my non-existent breasts. They laughed...thought it was all very funny. I felt dirty and humiliated. As a grown woman, I think about that incident and my heart breaks for that little girl who was too embarrassed to say anything to the teacher.

:(

[jsamuel]

20. Sorry to hear...

As an Anthropologist, I think that unfortunately, if our culture didn't evaluate children's early sexual behavior then more children who are assaulted would not have traumatic reactions later in life. In other words, it is the idea that it is so horrible that makes it so horrible. This is echoed above by some of the people from other countries.

An example would be theft. In some cultures, theft is actually a "good" thing. I know it sounds weird, but it is true. So, the more you steal, the better a person you are. I think this kind of cultural relativity is present in stories like this.

However, even if what happened to you was 0% sexual, it still would have been humiliating, just you might have forgotten about it in a few months instead of remembering it your whole life.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. What Culture Would That Be?

"An example would be theft. In some cultures, theft is actually a "good" thing. I know it sounds weird, but it is true. So, the more you steal, the better a person you are. I think this kind of cultural relativity is present in stories like this."

I know the concept of private property is not a universal norm but in what culture .is theft applauded.

[Fleshdancer]

30. I don't know. If it were 0% sexual, it would still be bullying

and kids who are bullied don't tend to forget. I wasn't bullied very often but I remember every incident just as clearly as the time I was sexually bullied on the playground.

[mcscajun]

31. Experimentation is one thing, force is quite another.

I side with those who suspect the boy has been sexualized by abuse. "Show me yours and I'll show you mine" is one thing, this goes beyond that.

[Corgigal]

36. Seems like No adult witness this

The boy is believed, is how this article starts. I think we should all slow down a bit. The McMartin
case from California has taught us nothing. This could be a case of the school trying to protect itself.

[Coyote_Bandit]

39. Many years ago

when I was practicing law I had a case that involved a child on child sexual attack (and a whole lot of other folks and other assorted unsavory conduct). Based on what I learned from the various psychologists and medical personnel in that case I would venture to say that this probably has a whole lot more to do with seeking control and dominance than with sexual experimentation. That alone makes it an issue that will require cooperation of all family members in working toward a healthy resolution. Sad beyond words.

[SmokingJacket]

46. Yes, and the fact that the child chose sex to seek control and

dominance is disturbing. I don't believe a child naturally equates sex with control.