The stronger Hezbelloh looks, the more my sympathy tilts towards Israel

[Onlooker]

At first, I was briefly for Israel, thinking they'd carry out a little strike in an attempt to free their soldiers. Then, I turned against Israel, thinking they were making a mess of the Middle East peace process and reacting insanely to an attack that was hardly worse than others they've suffered. But, now, with Hezbelloh firing up to 200 missiles a day, including long-range ones, and using advanced anti-tank weapons, I'm thinking, What the fuck? Hezbelloh is not the Lebanese government; they are not defending Lebanon, they are defending Hezbelloh; they have no right to have those weapons; and, besides, they are a religious fundamentalist group that's allied with an inhuman Iran that murders gays, oppresses women, and repeatedly calls for Israel's destruction. I'm beginning to think that Israel's war on Lebanon might be relevant to their survival, especially if they believe that Iran means it when they call for the destruction of Israel. At this point, I certainly favor a ceasefire, but I also think that Israel is acting rationally. It's a dreadful situation that Bush brought on by allowing the Iranian right-wing to use fear to win elections.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Onlooker]

12. Of course it does ...

... but the mistakes were made years ago and now Israel finds itself in a really messed up situation.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ixion]

2. killing is bad, no matter who does it

and will begat nothing other than more killing.

[MadHound]

3. Israel is acting rationally?

Let's compare today's death count, courtesy of NPR. In Israel, two, count them two civilians died due to Hezbollah fire. Meanwhile over in Lebanon, thirty civilians died after Israel bombed the shit out of them while they were, get this, loading up vegetable trucks.

Sorry, but that sort of over reaction is uncalled for and borderlines on being a war crime. If Israel is acting rationally, then I George W.:eyes:

I do however agree with you, there needs to be a ceasefire now. Bushco however doesn't want that yet, he hasn't gotten his excuse to invade Syria and Iran.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. I Try To Be Dispassionate

But it does appear they are armed for a fight. It reminds me of how we and Saudi Arabia armed the mujahdeen against Afghanistan and look what they accomplished.

[Marie26]

14. Yeah

I think that Israel was worried that, left unrestrained, Hizbollah would eventually turn Lebanon into a Shiite fundamentalist state. The same way that the armed mujahdeen/Taliban eventually were able to turn progressive Afganistan into a fundamentalist Islamic state. And seeing how strong they are, that seems like a reasonable possibility. If it came to a fight between Hizbollah & the Leebanese gov., I think Hizbollah would win.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[manic expression]

28. IDF is worse

they should disarm first.

[leveymg]

30. Glad to see you're here.

The report of your departure was greatly exaggerated, it seems.

Well, I'll respond. I'm sure that if Israel did the same as South Africa and the Ukraine, and abandoned its nuclear arms, everyone else in the region would be far more inclined to disarm.

"Now, everyone, on my signal, safety and unload your weapon. Then, drop your weapon into the barrel in front of you. Ammo goes into the box.

"Pick up your check and transport papers at the last desk by the door. Dismissed. Have a safe trip home."

If only the world were so sane.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I actually doubt it

actually I doubt that if Israel did that some entity in the region, most likely sub national, would do something nuts like leave a nuke in tel aviv

After all there are NO entities in the region that would love to destroy Israel and drive them pesky jews to the sea... and as somebody recently said, the problem with Israel is that it is too jewish :sarcasm:

As to leaving there is this antisemitism that has to be confronted, but my passport is ready and I am ready to flee this country on a moment's notice... yes the environment is that noxious and Seattle I fear is a preview

[leveymg]

53. To deal with the nuts, we have these guys.

Keep that passport up to date, but I don't think you'll be needing it. ;-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Oh I am not sure

any longer

[leveymg]

60. Uncertainty is a sure sign of sanity.

Here's to admitting to ourselves that we just don't know. :toast:

I'll pick up the first round.

What's going on with the encampment in Mexico City? . . .

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Last I heard was peaceful

and I hope it stays that way... but I am speaking of the US... I no longer feel safe here, and for once it has preciuos little to do wtth George

[leveymg]

73. You seem

worried about your personal safety. Anything happen recently to you or someone close to you? We can continue this by PM if you like.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Yep, the rise of antisemism over the last two weeks

in such an obvious way it is not even funny.. that is what has happened, never seen it this bad not even after 9.11

[leveymg]

84. You mean other than the flamewars at DU?

Have you picked up on anti-semitic expression in other places, off-line?

[malaise]

75. Only Israel

has nukes and you are well aware of that fact.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Yes I am and I am also aware what they have them for

Samsom

I don't think they will just use them willy nilly... now some subnational group, though not easy to get one... that is another story

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BayCityProgressive]

71. ah yes

murdering thousands for their religious faith was such a great thing under communism. Repression of religion was a great thing. You show the mindset of too many DUers. Some people here like you are completely nuts. China is officially atheist and look at their wonderful human rights record. A persons spiritual belief doesn't determine whether or not they treat others in a humae way. Religion or lack there of is merely an excuse.

[azurnoir]

6. Question: if Hezbollah

is just a tool of fundamentalist Islam as you imply, why then do only 3 countries consider it a terrorist organization?

[adriennui]

11. fear....you answered your own question

ever here of blackmail? no one wants to stir up the inmates in that asylum.

[Onlooker]

16. Because fundamentalist Islam is not necessarily terrorist

But, the military wing of Hezbelloh has absolutely no reason to be stocking up on big weapons. They are not the Lebanese military. They are basically an occupying force in Lebanon.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Double T]

7. Might have a 'chicken or the egg' problem here.........

feeble excuse for starting a massive war of destruction and death

[Marie26]

9. That's sort of the same

progression I've made. I switched once I heard that Hizbollah has drone & cruise missiles & saw the force of their fighting. This milita is better-armed than a lot of national armies - probably better than the Lebanese army. And they answer to Israel's sworn enemy. I get why Israel did this, but I'm still appalled at the toll this war has taken on innocent civilians & the country of Lebanon. But some people say that Isreal's just doing this to be evil, or because they're trying to kill civilians & I don't agree w/that. Israel is ruthless, but they are rational. I think they're just doing this to protect their security.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Hmmm

You would think more people without an axe to grind would notice that Iran and Hezbollah are willing to fight the last drop of Lebanese blood. Maybe Israel is too but at least they have a dog in this fight.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. What Did I Miss?

eom

[Marie26]

85. I have no idea

why that was deleted. I posted that the cowardice on both sides in this conflict bothers me. Iran has benefited by Hizbollah's attacks against Israel, and also from the civilian casualties inflicted on Lebanese. Win-win for Iran. Hizbollah has blended into the civilian pop. & lobbed missiles w/o attacking Israel directly. And Israel has bombed from the air because it doesn't want Israeli casualties, even though they know that will hurt lebanese civilians & infrastructure more than Hizbollah fighters.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. Israel

Israel wanted to reduce their casualties and not occupy Lebanon. That's why they avoided a ground invasion at the beginning. From a strategic point of view a "blitzkrieg" at the beginning of the hostility would have made the most sense.

Last time they occupied Lebanon it took them eighteen years to get out.

[Marie26]

64. But it isn't possible

They wanted to do this on the cheap, & stop Hizbollah w/o being dragged into Lebanon again. But I don't see how that was ever a good strategy. How are they going to disarm Hizbollah from the air? They just kept bombing & bombing, killing more civilians everyday, w/o ever stopping the rockets or Hizbollah's organization. I think Israel eventually faced that they need a ground campaign to really disarm Hizbollah, but were scared of entering another Iraq-style quagmire, so they just hung around the border towns. There's no way to really totally disarm Hizbollah w/o occupying the country again. If they can't do that, Israel should agree to a cease-fire & persue its goals through diplomatic means. But right now Israel is in limbo - attacking so much that a diplomatic resolution isn't possible, but not enough to actually occupy Hizbollah areas. Israel needs to re-assess its goals or its methods.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. They Wanted To Avoid Reoccupying Lebanon At All Costs.

Their hope now is to create a buffer zone and then hand it over to a peacekeeping force. If there isn't a peacekeeping force they are stuck occupying a land they voluntarily left.

It's a catch 22.

[Warpy]

10. I don't have a dog in this fight

and I think both sides are acting like bully boys with innocent kids trapped in the middle. I want them all to just plain knock it off. They've butchered enough people to satisfy them for a few years. Maybe they can go back to slaughtering each other at a later date.

My only sympathy is for the people who just want to go about their business and be left the hell alone.

Militaries can't do a goddamned thing about terrorism. You'd think after 60 years of creating more terrorists with every war, Israel would have figured that out. Terrorists don't ever manage to gain their aims in the population they prey on. You'd think Hezbollah would have figured that out in the last 60 years of random slaughter accomplishing nothing.

My guess is that they will just continue the slaugher, and a pox on both their houses.

[Union Thug]

19. Thank you for this...

It really is about the innocent people caught in the middle. War benefits only those with power. The rest of us suffer for their sins.

So, even though I don't buy the Libertarianism underlying some of Rush lyrics, This is an appropriate quote...

"No, his mind is not for rent
To any god or government
Always hopeful, yet discontent
He knows changes aren't permanent
But change is"

Now, if we can get the rest of us to abandon allegience to any god or government, things might improve in this world.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Yeah...

If Hezbollah didn't have the rockets to harass Israel what would they have had to respond to?


The Israelis are a lot of things but they are far from stupid. They know they couldn't get away with blowing up Lebanon's infrastructure over a cross border raid.

[QuestionAll...]

23. and who exactly would not let them 'get away' with it?

a serious question to you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. World Opinion

Even the US couldn't stand the pressure that would be brought on it if Israel destroyed Lebanon's infrastructure over a cross border raid.

[QuestionAll...]

42. like the millions hitting the streets around the globe

against Bush's Iraq invasion?

that kind of world opinion?

or UN opinion - which seems not to be able to do anything without US and Israel blessing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. Do You Really Think America Could Countenance

Israel's actions if they weren't the target of 2,500 rockets in the past two or three weeks.


I'm really surprised there aren't more casualties.


Israel is about the size of New Jersey and at least as densely populated. I would think if you lobbed 2,500 rockets into New Jersey you would kill more than forty people.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. What Did I Miss, Peaches?

eom

[manic expression]

33. If Israel didn't pound Lebanon off the map

there would be no rockets to respond to. They wanted this.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. The Taking Of The Soldiers Was A Causus Belli

That was the catalyst.


Even if one accepts your supposition that Israel was looking for a fight Hezbollah gave them cause.

[manic expression]

45. Not really

Israel escalated the situation unnecessarily at that point. They chose to extensively bomb Lebanon when they didn't have to. That is Israel's fault and Israel's fault alone.

Hezbollah is not Lebanon, Israel is targeting Lebanon and its people. That is wrong and unjustified and worse.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. I Halfway Agree

But what would you do if you were the president of a nation that was hit by 2,500 rockets in the past month.

You don't think we wouldn't invade Canada if a terrorist group was sending rockets into New York and Michigan and the Canadian government did nothing to stop them.

Sorry for the double negative but you get my point.

[manic expression]

62. To clarify

After what action were those rockets fired? Excuse me for going out on a limb, but I do believe Israel had been bombing Lebanon extensively at that point and were continuing to do so, were they not? Therefore, the rockets were an expected response. Now, Israel is invading Lebanon itself.

I basically get your point and I hope you get mine.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. I Really Am Unclear About That Point

Obviously I'm not going to countenance Israel's response if it was only a response to a cross border raid. That would be insane. It would be akin to beating somebody to death because they slapped you. But the barrage of rockets which still continues is a threat.

Everybody dismisses the rockets because they are relatively unsophisticated and inaccurate, but when you're firing rockets, even inaccurate ones, into a small densely populated area you're bound to hit somebody or someone. You're also dehumanizing people by taking away their rights to do what human beings do; go to work, walk your dog, go for a walk, etcetera.

I do consider myself a compassionate person but I just can't accept this as some kind of manichean battle with the Israelis being the bad guys.


Israel is not the only player who has acted badly.

[manic expression]

81. OK

I agree on your analogy completely.

The point I was making was that the barrage of rockets (which are feeble in comparison to Israel's onslaught) is occurring precisely because of Israel's aggression. That's important to understand.

Israel does commit the lion's share of the "bad acting", IMO.

[scarletwoman]

17. Do you realize that your post violates the new guidelines re: the M.E.?

They're in the post pinned to the top of the GD page.

1. ORIGINAL POSTS MUST BE ABOUT A CURRENT EVENT, AND CONTAIN NON-INFLAMMATORY, SUBSTANTIAL CONTENT
If you wish to start a thread in the General Discussion forum about the Middle East situation involving Lebanon, Israel, and the surrounding countries, it must be based on a current news story. The moderators may lock threads which are started with substance-free posts (for example, nothing but a link), or threads started with posts which contain inflammatory rhetoric.

2. DEBATE THREADS WHICH ARE NOT BASED ON A CURRENT NEWS STORY WILL BE MOVED
If you start a thread in General Discussion which is not based on a current event or news story, it will be moved to the Israel/Palestine forum where the thread will be subject to the special rules of that forum. (Yes, we know the name of the forum isn't entirely appropriate, but that's the least of our concerns at the moment.)

3. KEEP IT CIVIL
If you decide to persist in calling people who are attempting to have a reasonable discussion about these issues anything along the lines of terrorists, Jew-haters, Jew-lovers, neo-cons, Nazis, or any other red-hot rhetoric, then you may face further disciplinary action. There are plenty of other places on the Internet where you can have discussions like that. But not here.

sw

[Onlooker]

24. Not sure what I violated

(1) I didn't say anything inflammatory. In fact, as I implied, I'm not fully committed to one stand or another, but I'm starting to be a little more sympathetic to Israel.
(2) The current event that prompted this post was that Hezbelloh fired 200 missiles in one day, some further south than ever before.
(3) My post was civil. I didn't call anyone names or suggest that those who disagree with me are lesser people.

[scarletwoman]

32. U have no link or quotes from a news story in your post, just opinion. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. He Could Edit His Post

to include discussion of Hezbollah's advanced tank weapons and endless supply of rockets to meet the "currency" rules.

[leesa]

18. They aren't teligious fundamentalists and they ARE defending Lebanon

because Lebanon's military is small and could not defend against the attacks Israel is launching throughout Lebanon.

Israel is acting brutally and with pre-planning.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. The "Party Of God" Aren't Religious Fundamentalists?

That is the literal translation of Hezbollah.

Their goal is establish a Islamic republic in Lebanon and end the state of Israel:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

[Onlooker]

27. My neighbor is Lebanese

and returned from a visit to her family in northern Beirut about 2 weeks ago. She said that most people really want the military wing of Hezbelloh out of the country, but that support for Israel would wane if Israel continued attacking. (She said this to me two weeks ago, so I suspect that support for Israel has waned by now.) Hezbelloh is not protecting Lebanon. They are not part of the Lebanese military. There's now plenty of evidence that they protect themselves by hiding their weapons and soldiers in residential areas.

As far as Hezbollah being fundamentalist:

"It was largely formed with the aid of the Ayatollah Khomeini's followers in the early eighties to spread Shia revolution<7><9>. Hezbollah views Israel as a whole as "an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions" <10>, and follows a distinct version of Islamic Shia ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

[Marie26]

41. Hizbollah aren't fundamentalists?

It's the "Party of God"! Organized by the Iranian mullahs. Devoted to the destruction of Israel & the establishment of a fundamentalist state in Lebanon.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Meshuga]

26. No need to attack the

...poster for trying to keep an open mind about a very complex situation.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Meshuga]

36. Boy!

It's that simple! :eyes:

[QuestionAll...]

39. bomb sales are better than peace talks.

to the 1%ers,
I thought everyone knew that tid bit.

[chimpymustgo]

34. He's closing his mind, and wrapping his arms around the slaughterers.

based on some of the most illogical rationalization imaginable. But it's a huge and unruly pig he's trying to put lipstick on.

[Onlooker]

37. Calm down

If you believe what you said, then please tell me what I said that's "the most illogical rationalization imaginable."

[chimpymustgo]

50. You can hold the patronizing.

Let's see. You were FOR Israel, before you were against Israel, but now you're FOR Israeal because...your words: "But, now, with Hezbelloh firing up to 200 missiles a day, including long-range ones, and using advanced anti-tank weapons, I'm thinking, What the fuck?"

So killing 700 Lebanese (mostly children) and destroying that country works out in your moral equation?

[Onlooker]

63. That's the "the most illogical rationalization imaginable"?

Hezbelloh is a reactionary fundamentalist group that is armed by reactionary regimes in Iran and Syria. I don't have any sympathy for them. Israel is also headed by reactionaries, but at least the Israeli laws and government is secular, provides equal rights, and does something to protect minority groups like gays and women. If and only if Israel truly believes that Iran means it when they say they will destroy Israel does Israel's policy make sense. The crimes of war are just horrible, but the solution is not easy to find, especially since all the people in power hate each other so much. That's the reality we have to deal with, and events unfold in that context.

[Meshuga]

43. Who's to say

he is not going to change his mind tomorrow depending on the situation? Not everybody is lucky like you to have a made up mind.

[Snivi Yllom]

46. the world failed, and now Israel is responding accordingly

There is not even supposed to be a Hezbollah according to the UN, but that's another example of the failure to solve the issue in a definitive manner.

Noone has stepped in to properly help Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah and kept the Syrians and Iranians from using Lebanon as a base of operations to attack Israel. Israel has fulfilled it's obligations to the UN and the world to pull out of Lebanon, but Hezbollah (really Iran and Syria) still attacks and harasses Israel. Well, Israel has had enough.

You want to blame anyone for not keeping the peace? Blame the UN, blame Syria, blame Iran, and blame the world.

the following are the UN resolutions that call for and document Israel's withdrawl from Lebanon, and repeatedly calls for Hezbollah to disar, and for Iran and Syria to mind their own fucking buisness.

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N04/498/92/PDF/N0449892.pdf?OpenElement

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N02/233/04/PDF/N0223304.pdf?OpenElement

http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/TestFrame/7e93b8efbe9e9723c1256d9000289335?Opendocument

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sc8181.doc.htm

[breakaleg]

51. who stepped in to protect Lebanon from Israel? no one.

that's how Hezbollah was formed.

[Snivi Yllom]

58. Hezbollah was formed in the aftermath of Lebanon blowing itself up

What is ironic, is Israel is providing Lebanon the most protection it has had in years by bombing the Hezbollah scum who seek to take over the entire country.

Hezbollah does not seek to protect Lebanon, but to serve it's own twisted interests, to serve their masters in Damscus and Tehran, to destroy the democratic Lebanese government, and to erase Israel off the map.

Noone has stepped in to protect Lebanon, other than Israel.

[Marie26]

57. Mistakes

I think that "peace-keeping force" everyone talks about should've been installed the moment Israel withdrew, until the Lebanese gov. got back on it's feet. And when Syria withdrew, the US & UN should've figured out a diplomatic way to ensure that all the militias disarmed once the new Lebanese gov. was formed. This Administration crowed a lot about the new Lebanese democracy, but did nothing to support it or help it suceed.

[Snivi Yllom]

61. Not just the US, the entire world and the UN fucked up

.

[Marie26]

70. Totally agree.

That's why I said that the UN should've installed a peace-keeping force to monitor compliance w/its resolutions. It's just that the US's negligence bothers me the most. Bush has based his whole foreign policy on "spreading democracy throughout the Mideast." But when a new democracy is actually formed in Lebanon, they can't be bothered to negotiate, devote troops, or do anything to ensure that democracy's success. But they sure took credit for it anyway. So they should take credit for this disaster now.

[breakaleg]

48. you say Hezbollah is not the Lebanese government...

Are you implying that only the government is allowed to fight back? Because throughout history, all kinds of resistance movement do and are allowed to fight back when their country is invaded.

It's also incorrect to say that Hezbollah is only defending Hezbollah and not Lebanon. Who do you think was reponsible for forcing Israel out of Lebanon after the last occupation? Hezbollah, that's who.

The fact that Hezbollah appears strong at the moment has more to do with choosing their battles and strategy. The don't have near the resources in weapons or number of troops that Israel has. It appears you are implying that they shouldn't have ANY weapons as you seem to be upset that they are able to fight back at all. They have to defend themselves with something. What kind of a world would we have if citizens weren't allowed to defend themselves against an invading army? There would be no countries, and the strongest army would rule.

Hezbollah is a resistance movement. pure and simple.

[Snivi Yllom]

65. Hezbollah is a proxy terrorist army for striking Israel

Iran and Syria can't strike Israel directly without catastrophic retaliation.

Hezbollah is a convenient patsy for Iran and Syria to use to harass and kill Israelis. Hezbollah does not give a shit about Lebanon.

[breakaleg]

74. except Israel is inside Lebanon at the moment. so the strike is in

the opposite direction: Israel is attacking Lebanon

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. I Agree With A Caveat

"Hezbollah is a resistance movement. pure and simple".

Hezbollah is a (well armed) resistance movement. pure and simple.

[breakaleg]

72. good point.

[The Stranger]

49. Who's in whose country?

Kind of a problem, when you think about it.

[SoCalDem]

54. Frustration, adrenalin, testosterone, revenge, "honor"

add a hefty dose of religious zeal & weapons

makes for a deadly cocktail no matter who's drinking it.


That's what make the middle east such a thorny problem..

everyone has reason to hate/fear everyone else there..

They have never been able to lay down their arms and get along, because their cultures mark time in the THOUSANDS of years, and old grudges are with them every day.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

69. What happened to them fancy new rules?

[Ms. Clio]

83. I was just wondering the same thing

[chimpymustgo]

90. My, my, what an interesting question. Wonder what the answer is. nt

nt

[Meshuga]

80. Interesting read from a Lebanese

"Ména will continue to inform its readers of the evolution of the situation, by way of continuous official statements on this site for the minor developments, and by emailing “breaking news” to its subscribers, in the case of major events.

The politicians, journalists and intellectuals of Lebanon have, of late, been experiencing the shock of their lives. They knew full well that Hezbollah had created an independent state in our country, a state including all the ministers and parallel institutions, duplicating those of Lebanon. What they did not know – and are discovering with this war, and what has petrified them with surprise and terror – is the extent of this phagocytosis.

In fact, our country had become an extension of Iran, and our so-called political power also served as a political and military cover for the Islamists of Teheran. We suddenly discovered that Teheran had stocked more than 12,000 missiles, of all types and calibers, on our territory and that they had patiently, systematically, organized a suppletive force, with the help of the Syrians, that took over, day after day, all the rooms in the House of Lebanon. Just imagine it : we stock ground-to-ground missiles, Zilzals, on our territory and that the firing of such devices without our knowledge, has the power to spark a regional strategic conflict and, potentially, bring about the annihilation of Lebanon.

We knew that Iran, by means of Hezbollah, was building a veritable Maginot line in the south but it was the pictures of Maroun el-Ras and Bint J’bail that revealed to us the magnitude of these constructions. This amplitude made us understand several things at once : that we were no longer masters of our destiny. That we do not possess the most basic means necessary to reverse the course of this state of things and that those who turned our country into an outpost of their islamic doctrine’s combat against Israel did not have the slightest intention of willingly giving up their hold over us."

http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1479

-----------------

I have to admit, I don't know much about the site (the source of the article) since the main page is in French and I didn't have time to browse and investigate. But it is an interesting piece...

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. BBC has had some interviews with people in the north

they blame hisbollah for this... the breaks in the society are opening again, fully

[Crunchy Frog]

87. This thread sort of looks like it's in violation of the new guidelines.

ORIGINAL POSTS MUST BE ABOUT A CURRENT EVENT, AND CONTAIN NON-INFLAMMATORY, SUBSTANTIAL CONTENT
If you wish to start a thread in the General Discussion forum about the Middle East situation involving Lebanon, Israel, and the surrounding countries, it must be based on a current news story. The moderators may lock threads which are started with substance-free posts (for example, nothing but a link), or threads started with posts which contain inflammatory rhetoric.

[MyNameGoesHere]

88. wow too bad war isnt a cheerleading sport.

Aren't you afraid of being called a fair weather fan? I mean if you keep switching your support some will question your loyalty to your favorite war team.

[pinto]

91. Locking.

Thread's become increasingly inflammatory.

1. ORIGINAL POSTS MUST BE ABOUT A CURRENT EVENT, AND CONTAIN NON-INFLAMMATORY, SUBSTANTIAL CONTENT
If you wish to start a thread in the General Discussion forum about the Middle East situation involving Lebanon, Israel, and the surrounding countries, it must be based on a current news story. The moderators may lock threads which are started with substance-free posts (for example, nothing but a link), or threads started with posts which contain inflammatory rhetoric.

2. DEBATE THREADS WHICH ARE NOT BASED ON A CURRENT NEWS STORY WILL BE MOVED
If you start a thread in General Discussion which is not based on a current event or news story, it will be moved to the Israel/Palestine forum where the thread will be subject to the special rules of that forum. (Yes, we know the name of the forum isn't entirely appropriate, but that's the least of our concerns at the moment.)

3. KEEP IT CIVIL
If you decide to persist in calling people who are attempting to have a reasonable discussion about these issues anything along the lines of terrorists, Jew-haters, Jew-lovers, neo-cons, Nazis, or any other red-hot rhetoric, then you may face further disciplinary action. There are plenty of other places on the Internet where you can have discussions like that. But not here.

Thanks.