Remarks by Rabbi Yoffie at Evening of Solidarity with Israel

[Meshuga]

"We are grateful for the analysis that we will hear tonight. It is important for us to understand as best we can the terrible conflict that rages on Israel’s northern border.

Still, as much as we appreciate analysis and commentary, it seems to me that the distinguishing feature of this conflict is the utter clarity of the issues and of the moral choices that it presents.

This is a war in which the rights and wrongs are beyond all doubt.

Southern Lebanon is taken over by Hezbollah after Israel’s withdrawal. Supported by Syria and Iran, Hezbollah amasses an arsenal of 13,000 missiles and rockets. Over a period of 6 years, it launches dozens of unprovoked attacks into Israeli territory— striking at military installations or launching rockets at civilian targets. All the while, Hezbollah’s leaders proclaim their genocidal intentions: Israel is to be wiped off the map.

And then, after it attacks again, kidnapping and killing Israeli soldiers, Israel finally strikes back. After 6 long years, it has had enough. But without hesitation, Hezbollah unleashes a barrage of 2500 rockets against Israel’s northern cities, each and every rocket aimed at civilians, each and every rocket intended to kill, or to maim, or to terrorize.

And terrorize they have. A half million Israelis have been driven from their homes; nearly a million pass most of their days in bomb shelters. Life in the northern half of the country has come to a standstill. And not only that. Hezbollah intentionally operates from civilian areas, knowing that this will increase civilian deaths, no matter how precise Israel’s weaponry. And these deaths in turn will be used to ratchet up the violence and the hate.

Could the rights and wrongs of this conflict be any clearer? If Israel’s cause is not just in this war, then no cause can ever be just..."

http://urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=11224

Many here probably know that Rabbi Yoffie is a HUGE critic of Bush and the war in Iraq. Many may also know him from the remarks he has made criticizing the religious right back in November 2005 that caused a big stir.

Rabbi Yoffie is the president of the Union of Reform Judaism (the US body of the World for Progressive Judaism).

[T Wolf]

1. Simply an example of me-first political rationalization.

Inconsistency is one of the hardest things to achieve. Because most Jewish people think and feel that they are personally threatened by the Israeli/Lebanese war, they conveniently throw out whatever "progressive" values they have.

[Meshuga]

12. Which "progressive" values

did Rabbi Yoffie throw out?

[furman]

2. My rabbi sent this to me today...I thought it was very well written

Thanks for posting this.

[Lerkfish]

7. but what is it actually saying?

Its just more empty justification for Isreal govt. to slaughter whomever they please and pat themselves on the back for it.
The fact that it comes from a religious leader is even more disturbing.

[Lerkfish]

3. Its easy to claim moral clarity when you only listen to yourselves.

:shrug:

the issues are easy to make black and white if you are the one deciding where the line goes. If Israelis only listen to Israelis then they are only going to see their POV as correct.

It takes uncommon courage and valor to see issues from the POV of your opponent, or to accept that both sides can be wrong in a conflict.

when I hear anyone claim only they are correct in a conflict, I know they need to reexamine their position.

IMHO

[chimpymustgo]

4. So Israel's ethnic cleansing and carnage in Lebanon is cool with the Rabbi

Jesus Christ...

[Lerkfish]

6. Well, *I'm* not claiming that he's right...quite the opposite.

I'm saying its easy to CLAIM moral high ground if you only talk to yourselves. What I see missing from all the pro-israeli sources is ANY concern whatsoever for the lebanese, nor any attempt to see things from a point of view beyond their own.

This is a bad thing. This is what makes ethnic cleansing possible.

maybe you misread my post or didn't mean to reply to my post?

[chimpymustgo]

10. I agree with you totally, Lerkfish. Just hit your post to reply to.

No problem, here. I follow your posts - and you are clearly on the side of justice.

:hi:

[Lerkfish]

14. no problemo, was just clarifying

:)

[Meshuga]

15. We talk ONLY to ourselves?

Are you actually serious? If you are saying Rabbi Yoffie or "WE" don't have ANY concern for Lebanese whatsoever it's because you didn't read the entire article.

No offense but who are you to talk about ONLY LISTENING TO ONE SIDE or making issues "black and white" when "ethnic cleasing" is part of your language?

[Lerkfish]

16. I'm pretty sure I"m posting on democraticunderground

if this has changed to pro-Israelunderground, I didn't get the memo.

Yes, I'm saying you're only talking to yourselves....was there a summit between Lebanon and Israel that I'm unaware of?
Did this rabbi talk to any lebanese before he wrote this? Have YOU spoken to any lebanese or researched what they have to say?

I read the article but the overall message is justification for what is happening, rather than reexamining what is happening.

that's my take.

[Meshuga]

18. pro-Israelunderground???

I din't get the memo either but anyway...

"Did this rabbi talk to any lebanese before he wrote this? Have YOU spoken to any lebanese or researched what they have to say?"

Who the Rabbi Yoffie talked to about this matter, I have no clue. However, In my opinion, affirming that he actually did talk to Lebanese or did not talk to any Lebanese is dumb! How can we affirm when we don't know?

You don't know me or who I talk to and you implying that ALL my sources are one sided is rather ridiculous.

[Lerkfish]

19. did you really read the post you responded to?

the issues are easy to make black and white if you are the one deciding where the line goes. If Israelis only listen to Israelis then they are only going to see their POV as correct.

It takes uncommon courage and valor to see issues from the POV of your opponent, or to accept that both sides can be wrong in a conflict.

when I hear anyone claim only they are correct in a conflict, I know they need to reexamine their position.

then I said:

I'm saying its easy to CLAIM moral high ground if you only talk to yourselves. What I see missing from all the pro-israeli sources is ANY concern whatsoever for the lebanese, nor any attempt to see things from a point of view beyond their own.

This is a bad thing. This is what makes ethnic cleansing possible.

You're right, I don't know you, and you don't know me.... But you seem intent on telling me how to post. If you have a contradictory opinion, feel free to post it.

I'm making what I consider a valid point: if someone only listens to themselves, they sound right. If someone listens to others, they can accept they could be wrong. But no one ever found they could be wrong if they never listened.

What the rabbi was saying was that there was absolutely no moral ambuiguity and that Isreal was absolutely in the right.
I have trouble with such statements of absolutism. Whenever entire govts or groups of people feel they have the absolute moral right to kill another group of people, eventually ethnic cleansing occurs, at least that seems to be the pattern.

sorry if that bothers you, but its how I feel. I feel this conflict has enough blame on BOTH sides and should not be happening, and should stop immediately. If someone feels there is only blame on ONE side, I must perforce disagree with them.

[Meshuga]

21. "But you seem intent on telling me how to post"

Whatever you say man...

[Phx_Dem]

11. What the Rabbi said:

But let us not think for a moment, God forbid, that we can be indifferent to the death of innocents. The death of any child, Israeli or Arab, Muslim or Jew, is an unspeakable tragedy that rends the heart.

When Abraham argued with God about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, his plea was: “Ha-af tispeh tsaddik im rasha? Will you indeed sweep away the innocent with the guilty?” (Gen 18:23). And Abraham knew the answer, of course. Because you cannot turn your back on the innocent and still be God.

And so, what do we say about the children who died in Jana? We say that it was terrible beyond words.

[Spazito]

5. There is NO justification for what is happening to Lebanon, NONE

whether it is Rabbi trying to justify it or anyone else.

"A half million Israelis have been driven from their homes; nearly a million pass most of their days in bomb shelters. Life in the northern half of the country has come to a standstill."

A million Lebanese have been driven from their homes, millions pass most of their days in abject fear of Israeli bombs. Life in Lebanon has come to a standstill.

I am saddened that the Rabbi cannot see the hypocrisy in his own words. To be anti-Iraq war yet condone what Israel is doing in Lebanon is hypocrisy, imo.

[malaise]

9. Hypocrisy is a

mild word in this instance.

[MadHound]

8. Rabbi Yoffie may be progressive, may be a Bush critic

But none of that makes him right on this one. All he is doing is rationazlizing war crimes, the death of innocent men, women and children. I think that he is letting his love of Israel blind him to the horrible reality of what is going on.

[burythehatchet]

13. The first line says it all

"...the terrible conflict that rages on Israel’s northern border."

No sweet tits, the battle rages in the homes of Lebanese civilians.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Interesting choice of insult...

...I think that says it all!

[burythehatchet]

26. ooo you picked me!

I'll consider that a badge of honor. :)

[The Stranger]

30. What is the allusion in the insult?

[Behind the Aegis]

32. It was an insult used by Mel Gibson.

[The Stranger]

33. Oh, I didn't see that.

He called the cop "sweet tits"?

[Behind the Aegis]

34. I believe it was "sugar tits," but same thing.

And I don't know that it was the recent incident, but it wasn't too long ago.

[RethugAssKicker]

17. Just how many rockets and innoncents died in Israel from

the supposed 6 years of rocket launches?... And why were those rockets launched?...

AND How many Lebaneese and Palestinians has Israel kidnapped and jailed within the last 6 years?

[jonnyblitz]

22. the pro Israel side doesn't like to discuss "cause" you will

notice. If they discuss the cause then they would have to admit that they are really not in a defensive mode but in an offensive one.

[Karmakaze]

20. Many may know him...

as whatever, but after this I now know him as a seriosuly misinformed person.

Unprovoked attacks? For 6 years Israel has not struck back? Total and utter bullshit.

Here is a UN report covering the period 2 July 2005 to 20 January 2006:

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/2a066c47641b5b6d852570fc00782a27!OpenDocument

Reading that report makes it clear that ongoing hostilities bewteen Hizbullah and IDF were nothing new. For example:

3. In a serious breach of the ceasefire, Hizbollah launched an attack across the Blue Line on 21 November. The exchange began with heavy Hizbollah mortar and rocket fire from a number of locations against several IDF positions close to the Blue Line in the eastern sector of the UNIFIL area of operation. Simultaneously, a large group of Hizbollah fighters infiltrated Ghajar village and launched an assault on the Mayor's office and the IDF position inside the village, south of the Blue Line, which was vacant at the time. This was followed by an attempt to attack the main IDF position on the eastern outskirts of the village. Four Hizbollah fighters were killed during the exchange of small arms fire with IDF. There was significant damage to civilian property in the village and one civilian resident was wounded.

Note the bolded statements. Oh my, is the IDF using the innocent civilians of Ghajar as human shields?

But unlike the good Rabbi said, retaliation was swift and ferocious:

4. The ensuing Israeli retaliation was heavy and included aerial bombing. The exchange of fire subsequently spread all along the Blue Line and lasted for over nine hours. Around 800 artillery, tank and mortar rounds and rockets were exchanged. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) dropped at least 30 aerial bombs. One Hizbollah mortar round directly hit a house in the village of Metulla, causing material damage but no casualties. On the Lebanese side, the bridge two kilometres north of Ghajar was destroyed by an Israeli air strike. There were five instances of firing by IDF close to United Nations positions in the area. Twelve Israeli soldiers and one civilian, and an unidentified number of Hizbollah fighters were wounded. A number of Hizbollah positions close to the Blue Line were destroyed or heavily damaged and there was significant damage to some IDF positions and equipment.

So Israel did indeed retaliate on a regular basis.

But Israel was not always simply defending themselves:

10. The Israeli Air Force violated Lebanese airspace on many occasions during the reporting period, disturbing the relative calm along the Blue Line. During the time of heightened tension in November, overflights by jets, helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles or drones were numerous and particularly intrusive and provocative. Following the Hizbollah attack on 21 November, Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets over some areas of Lebanon, including Beirut. Israeli officials maintained the position that overflights would be carried out whenever Israel deemed them necessary. Since mid-December, the number of Israeli air violations has decreased. As in the past, Israeli aircraft often penetrated deep into Lebanese airspace, sometimes generating sonic booms over populated areas. The pattern identified in my previous reports continued, whereby the aircraft would sometimes fly out to sea and enter Lebanese airspace north of the UNIFIL area of operation, thus avoiding direct observation and verification by UNIFIL.

If Israel had nothing to hide, why were they hiding?

Then there is this:

15. In a few instances, IDF fired small- and medium-arms and illumination rounds across the Blue Line, particularly in the Shab'a farms and Yarun areas. UNIFIL called upon the Israeli authorities to halt such actions as firing across the Line has escalatory potential.

All in all an interesting report, but definately doesnt have the feel the good Rabbi was trying to convey.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

23. Sadly, Rabbi Yoffie...

is too typical of many who are progressive up until the point it involves Israel.

Rabbi Lerner is my hero. I heard him speak with great sadness and compassion about what is happening in Lebanon, and about the need to do the right thing in regards to the Palestian people for the sake of Israel's future. He gets it.

A true progressive, in my book. :loveya:

On Edit:

Rabbi Lerner and his organization are placing the following add in newspapers across the country and the Middle East. You can also sign on to this statement at the website:

STOP THE SLAUGHTER IN LEBANON, ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES!
Convene an International Middle East Peace Conference to Impose a Final Settlement on All Parties

In the name of our sisters and brothers suffering and dying in Lebanon, Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, we, the undersigned, call upon the Israeli government, the leaderships of Hezbollah and Hamas, the U.S. Government, the international community and the United Nations to immediately take the following steps to stop the war in these countries:

1. We call upon Hezbollah and Hamas to immediately stop shelling or otherwise engaging in violence against Israel. These actions, which have killed numerous Israeli civilians, terrorized the people of Israel and damaged many towns and cities, played a central role in provoking the current crisis, and do nothing but harm the cause of Palestinian and Lebanese independence and democracy. It is this kind of violence which has over the years pushed many decent Israelis into the hands of its most militaristic and insensitive political leaders.

2. We call upon the Israeli government to immediately halt its attacks on Lebanon. We join with the Israeli peace movement and the thousands of Israelis who demonstrated against this war in Tel Aviv on July 22, 2006 in their insistence that these attacks are utterly disproportionate to the initial provocation by Hezbollah, have killed innumerable innocent civilians, displaced one million people, destroyed billions of dollars of Lebanon’s infrastructure, and will not, in the long run, secure peace or security for Israel. We also call on the Israeli government to supply food, electricity, water and funds to repair the humanitarian crisis caused by its invasion of Gaza.

3. We call upon the U.S. and governments around the world to insist that Israel, Hezbollah and Hamas implement a lasting ceasefire, place an immediate embargo on all shipments of weapons to all parties in the war (including Syria and Iran), and join an international conference to provide security on the border between Israel and Lebanon. By endorsing Israel’s attacks, sending it new supplies of weapons, and explicitly giving it time to do more damage to the people of Lebanon, the U.S. government has become a party to this violence, which, together with American military action in Iraq, is sure to create enmity toward the U.S. and Israel in the Muslim world for generations to come.

These are the minimum steps necessary to stop the violence and the humanitarian disaster in southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip. But these steps alone will not ensure that the region doesn’t return to an untenable status quo which will again eventually break into violence and new rounds of warfare.

(much more a the site...)

http://www.tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner/news_item.2006-07-25.1817694454

[Cerridwen]

24. Apparently it's not so clear for the Auschwitz council of survivors

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2433221&mesg_id=2433221

The International Auschwitz Council, which includes Holocaust survivors, scholars and religious leaders, appealed to international leaders to launch peace initiatives, "insignificant though they may appear to be, with the view to overcome the hateful antagonisms while promoting dialogue and cooperation."

[Karenina]

27. Any Jew able to twist logic

into the pro-*MIC pretzel that disregards Hashem's people and extended family has COMPLETELY LOST the tradition of our ethical culture in favor of some sick nationalism.

Shabbat Shalom.

[Meshuga]

31. You're so worried about tradition

but lashon hara is okay?

Shabbat shalom!

[Karenina]

35. Lot's of L"H hittin the fans these days...

However, a warning of grave danger spoken with a passion for truth might be forgiven, ya think? ;-) You shall not stand aside while your fellow's blood is shed.

Silvia Tennenbaum is a MUCH BETTER writer than I, so I'll defer here:

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-opten044839272aug04,0,2597237.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines

"But lo and behold - even as the destruction builds and the war continues through its third week - it seems suddenly no longer such a lark. Success is hard to come by; Israel is no longer the perennial victor. But will it know what to do when faced with the need to talk with the enemy? It has always felt so invincible that discussion seemed the weapon of fools and weaklings, much like the way the earnest work of its principled and dedicated peace camp - Jewish to the core, in an "old-fashioned" way - seemed pathetic and misguided.

But the peace camp knew that each and every Israeli atrocity nurtured another enemy, a potential terrorist, while every Palestinian home that the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions helped to rebuild, every olive tree it planted tenderly in occupied soil, brought another possible friend, another partner in dialogue."

:hi:

[lastliberalintexas]

28. This is where he lost me

"This is a war in which the rights and wrongs are beyond all doubt."


If anyone on either side of this conflict can make that statement, then s/he has blinders on and is unwilling to see the whole picture. Nothing about this conflict is beyond all doubt, save perhaps for the potential for it to become more widespread.

[The Stranger]

29. He has Olmert and Netanyahu's talking points down, I'll give him that.