20 Jewish shops in Rome vandalized, defaced with swastikas

[kentuck]

Anti-Semitism is very much alive in Rome. But they do say in the article that not all the shops were Jewish-owned...

=============

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745742.html

ROME - Jewish shops across Rome were vandalized and defaced with swastikas in an apparent neo-fascist attack linked to fighting in the
Middle East, officials said Wednesday.

Owners of about 20 shops in the center and outskirts of the Italian capital reached their workplace Tuesday morning to find door locks filled with glue, shutters nailed closed and swastikas defacing nearby walls, said Riccardo Pacifici, a spokesman for Rome's Jewish Community.

<snip>
Flyers signed by a group calling itself Armed Revolutionary Fascists were left at the shops denouncing "the Zionist economy" and including pro-Hezbollah slogans, Pacifici said.

"There are still anti-Semites in Italy," Pacifici said. He told The Associated Press that Italian Jewish organizations have been flooded with dozens of e-mails blaming Jews for violence in the Middle East

[T Town Jake]

1. I'm taking bets on how long it'll take someone to post about what a "myth"

...anti-semitism is in this thread. Bet I won't have to wait long.

[Renew Deal]

2. Happy searching

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2431117&mesg_id=2431117

[11cents]

4. How about something to the tune of...

...this action by "The Armed Revolutionary Fascists" is understandable, given that all the Jews in Rome *could* be Israeli citizens if they wanted to be.

[adriennui]

12. there are very few jews left in rome

there was once a thriving community(the jewish ghetto is now an area of beautiful ols palazzos near the tiber). those remaining in italy have been there since the 1400's. you can still see what remains of the ghettos and old synagogues in venice, the main synagogue in rome(guarded by carabinieri with machine guns)and a large synagogue in florence. i'm not sure if they are used for worship or just melancholy relics of the past.
i've always been affected when i visit italy.

but no more. i'm through with europe.

[barb162]

59. I know what you mean

I think there is just one in Spain , re the few hundred year long Inquisition

[Binka]

69. Europe Is For Grown Ups

Glad you won't be joining us.


BTW please save your "anti-semite" arguments. I have heard it all for weeks.

[Behind the Aegis]

92. Is it now?

Was it grown ups that marked up those places with swastikas? Or is that not anti-Semitism in your world?

You have heard all the "anti-Semite" arguments for weeks now? I feel no pity for you...try a lifetime of actual anti-Semitsm!

[Warren DeMontague]

117. What the hell does that mean?

Painting swastikas on businesses doesn't sound terribly "Grown up" to me.

[jackstraw45]

3. More "bi-polar" victims being labeled neofacists by the zionists?

:sarcasm:

[Cooley Hurd]

5. Hate sucks...

It's not the Jews in Rome bombing the crap out of Lebanon - why should they be fucked with???:grr:

[SammyBlue]

27. Because Jews are Jews and it doesn't matter.

Don't you realize we're all psionically linked!

[bronxiteforever]

6. there is no shortage of shitheads in the world

[Nikki Stone 1]

7. War always brings out this kind of behavior. Attacks on Muslims increased

during the first Gulf War in 91. People I knew were warned that they could be the target of attacks because of the way they looked.

[Jacobin]

8. I suppose Muslims did it and think it was payback

for all the shops in Lebanon Israel bombed.

Is this a good way to handle policy?

Of course not.

Is it something that one can expect powerless frustrated people to do when policy makers are nuts?
Apparently so

[TahitiNut]

9. Well, according to *some* on DU ...

... if you're not supportive of Israel's actions in the Middle East, then you're obviously antisemitic. This, of course, equates Israel (and opinions of Israel) to Judaism (and opinions of Jews) - from a "pro-Israel/pro-Jewish" perspective, no less. Just what the fuck makes THAT perspective any more valid than the same equivocation from the 'anti' perspective?

I personally find that perspective obscenely reprehensible - and I don't give a flying fuck which 'side' it comes from. It's bigotry - and ignorance.

[adriennui]

15. how many pro-israel posters do you think are left on DU?

most have left because of the obscene, hate-filled anti-israel (code) comments. i've chosen to remain to counter the ignorance i've seen expressed (some are so f--king ludicrous, they're funny)i've been warned by the mods but i'll stay around. keep your friends close and your.............

[manic expression]

21. Give it a rest

people are pissed at Israel because they are showing no respect for innocent life, Israel is collectively punishing an entire nation and oppressing an entire people. Concentrate on the OP.

[SammyBlue]

28. What about these Roman Jews' innocence?

People equate Israel with Jews. If "people are pissed at Israel because they are showing no respect for innocent life because "Israel is collectively punishing an entire nation and oppressing an entire people, these same people so no difference between Jews and Israeli.

Don't you understand why Jews who support and defend Israel take the criticisms very personally. Because it goes from criticism to this.

[manic expression]

33. What about it?

Look at my last sentence of the post: "Concentrate on the OP". That means that the poster I was responding said was off-topic and irrelevant to the current topic.

People can equate Israel with whatever they wish, that is their problem. If they think I am talking about Jews, they are just insane; I am talking about a state which has displayed the digusting tendencies that I outlined. That has little to do with Judaism in general. If people can't grasp that simple concept, then they are simply wrong.

I do not understand why people who support Israel think that Israel is justified in injustice and oppression and murder. That is not understandable, that is not acceptable.

[barb162]

70. Your comments about Israel here have what to do with

with the anti-semitism as shown by the vandalism in Italy?

Nothing

[manic expression]

102. I agree n/t

[everythingsxen]

34. Ok, let's concentrate on the OP...

20 Jewish shops vandalized in Rome with swastikas.

1 Jew murdered and 5 wounded in Seattle.

Synagogue attacked twice in Sydney, Australia http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=3965

Synagogue graffiti in New Zealand http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=119114

Norway http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1408305.ece

Scotland http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/67044.html

Miami http://www.jewishpress.com/page.do/19023/South_Florida_Shaken_By__Anti-Semitic_Vandalism.html


Is there a pattern here? Yes. Jews are being attacked for Israel's actions. Some people have used such outrageous, vile, venomous comments about Israel that it has really fired up people. Especially on the internet. You see massively overblown phrases like "Israel is murdering babies" and "Israel is intentionally targeting civilians" and so no doubt persons of Arab descent are quite upset reading such inflammatory comments, then they will act upon them. So ultimately, the people truly responsible for these heinous, cowardly acts are of course the people who post baseless lies, half-truths and inflaming rhetoric on the internet. Feeding into this is the neo-nazi movement, who frequently infiltrate internet message boards, post bizarre phrases like "This is what Jews get for Israel going to War" and other mindless drivel; the same can be said for Islamic Jihadists.

[Ravenseye]

46. Back up a second

"so no doubt persons of Arab descent are quite upset reading such inflammatory comments, then they will act upon them."

There is no mention in any of those links of Arabs being the vandals. Most likely the shops in Rome were vandalized by Italians, the ones in Australia, by Australians, and so on. The only one with any link to Arabs is the one in Seattle, and that guy is a few scews loose with prior charges of exposing himself in public.

In fact one of the articles specifically mentions one of the local Muslim groups working with the Jewish group to reduce these kinds of crimes.

Just saying....lets not automatically assume any crime committed against jews was done by Arabs. Plenty of Anti-semitism to go around.

[everythingsxen]

53. I wasn't accusing Arabs in general..

however the attacks in Sydney were, and no suspects have been apprehended in most of the others. I am not handing blame out to them anyway. I am handing blame out to people who sit by quietly posting smears about Israel on the internet, then they become "facts" which are acted upon by, for the most part, Arabs. (I say "for the most part" with the best intentions here, I think if I read that American babies were being intentionally murdered by Martians, I would be very pissed off at Martians and if Martian Churches were being burned down I would think it was Americans doing it in retaliation)

[manic expression]

49. Let's

Jews are being attacked. And? This justifies anything? This validates anyone? No, it doesn't, it is simply a trend which is not unheard of in other areas.

Moving on, Israel IS showing no respect for innocent life and behaving in an unjustified, brutal, belligerent and criminal manner. That is clear to anyone who looks at the situation. Denying this won't change a thing. Arab or not, anyone with a sense of decency will get very upset reading such accurate statements, but whose fault is that?

Let's see, you have things happening in Scotland, Norway, NZ, Australia, Seattle, Miami and you think this has to do with people posting opinions on the internet? Please, this has nothing to do with people reading opinions and facts (yes facts). Your insinuation that it does borders on slander.

Here's what it boils down to:

1.) This doesn't JUST happen to Jews, it happens to Arabs, blacks, hispanics, gays and other groups.
2.) These incidents are incidents and incidents only, to think they are part of some international conspiracy is as unsupported as it is ridiculous.
3.) These incidents justify and validate NOTHING. These incidents change NOTHING about the conflict. Israel IS guilty of injustice (and worse), and no amount of spraypaint will change that.

"Feeding into this is the neo-nazi movement..."

Do you know what the leading neo-nazi group in the US is? What religious affiliation do neo-nazis most usually identify with? What are some common signs of neo-nazis (clothes, tatoos, etc...)? I'm just wondering since you seem to be so knowledgable about it.

[everythingsxen]

55. Your point?

Jews are being attacked. And? This justifies anything? This validates anyone? No, it doesn't, it is simply a trend which is not unheard of in other areas.

Most agencies that track such things acknowledge a rise in anti-semitism. The point you are obviously unable to grasp is that Israel does not equal all Jews. It is an interesting "trend" that anti-semitic attacks have increased remarkably since the start of the war. I would say it is connected. Especially since the attack of the OP was made by a person who said he was upset over the war in Lebanon.

Moving on, Israel IS showing no respect for innocent life and behaving in an unjustified, brutal, belligerent and criminal manner. That is clear to anyone who looks at the situation. Denying this won't change a thing. Arab or not, anyone with a sense of decency will get very upset reading such accurate statements, but whose fault is that?

Ah yes. The way Israel cruelly leaflets an area 48 hours before an attack, urging people to get out of the area so they are not killed. The horrifying way in which Israel is using as many precision strikes as possible to try and minimize civilian casualties. The only thing that is clear from the situation is that Hezbollah is exploiting the Lebanese civilians horribly, not only by hiding among them, but by then humiliating their families by putting on staged photo op's with dead bodies.

1.) This doesn't JUST happen to Jews, it happens to Arabs, blacks, hispanics, gays and other groups.

You are quite right, it does happen to other groups. Only it isn't happening in the large numbers it is to Jews. Also, last I checked there were no fire-bombings of Mosques because of this. There have been no attacks on black centers because of (take your pick) conflict in Africa. Chavez said he was going to end the American Empire and no one has attacked hispanic centers. So why is it that Jews are attacked so much more... I wonder...

2.) These incidents are incidents and incidents only, to think they are part of some international conspiracy is as unsupported as it is ridiculous.

Non-sequitor, your facts are in error. I never claimed there was a conspiracy. I don't blame on conspiracy what stupidity and incompetence explain.

What I did blame was people on the internet using factually questionable half-truths to inspire hatred of Jews because of the Israel situation.

3.) These incidents justify and validate NOTHING. These incidents change NOTHING about the conflict. Israel IS guilty of injustice (and worse), and no amount of spraypaint will change that.

So what you are saying then is that the Jews deserve it because Israel is guilty.

[manic expression]

57. Yours?

Yes, attacks on Jews are rising. That's true. What it is not connected to is almost everyone who opposes Israel's policies. You must recognize that. If you don't you are simply incorrect.

Funny how no one got any leaflets in Qana. Funny how that family that was picnicing on a beach got no leaflets. Funny how all of Lebanon is being pounded into oblivion (along with its infrastructure), and you try to justify it with leaflets. That is insane. What is equally insane is that you insist on the obvious myth that Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties, when Israel has killed far more civilians than combatants (like the recent attack; 60:0 civilian dead to combatant dead in one instance). What is clear is that Israel has no respect for innocent life, Israel does not want to discern combatant from civilian, Israel wants to punish the country of Lebanon. Your denial changes nothing.

You really don't know too much, do you? In my state, there was a certain group called the "dot busters", a bunch of people who attacked Indians because they thought they weren't welcome. This happened for about 25 years with little involvement from the police, many were attacked and many were seriously hurt (I'm not sure if any were killed but I don't doubt it). In addition, Arabs and people who look "Arab" are routinely attacked, Sikhs have been targeted, Hindus have been targeted, Arabs have been targeted; many have been murdered. A Mosque once found burnt Qurans on its front entrance, a Hindu temple had its idols smashed (in WI, IIRC) by vandals. While all of this is undeniably tied to developments, either socioeconomic, world events or otherwise, yet you ignore it. Why?

You have insinuated a connection between posting opinions on the internet and these sorts of attacks and crimes. That is quite suggestive of the meaning I specified and that is a fact.

No, you are beyond wrong. As a matter of fact, what you just claimed is slander. What I am saying is that vandalism and these sorts of crimes do nothing to justify or validate Israel's actions of wrongdoing and injustice.

And why did you ignore my questions on neo-nazis (as well as other points, I do believe)?

[everythingsxen]

76. If I may..

Yes, attacks on Jews are rising. That's true. What it is not connected to is almost everyone who opposes Israel's policies. You must recognize that. If you don't you are simply incorrect.

I didn't connect everyone who opposes Israel to attacks on Jews. I did connect the recent online wave of unsubstantiated remarks regarding Israel to attacks on Jews though.

Funny how no one got any leaflets in Qana. Funny how that family that was picnicing on a beach got no leaflets. Funny how all of Lebanon is being pounded into oblivion (along with its infrastructure), and you try to justify it with leaflets. That is insane. What is equally insane is that you insist on the obvious myth that Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties, when Israel has killed far more civilians than combatants (like the recent attack; 60:0 civilian dead to combatant dead in one instance). What is clear is that Israel has no respect for innocent life, Israel does not want to discern combatant from civilian, Israel wants to punish the country of Lebanon. Your denial changes nothing.

No, what is clear is that Hezbollah has better PR people and that they are better at manipulating news stories and events.

You really don't know too much, do you? In my state, there was a certain group called the "dot busters", a bunch of people who attacked Indians because they thought they weren't welcome. This happened for about 25 years with little involvement from the police, many were attacked and many were seriously hurt (I'm not sure if any were killed but I don't doubt it). In addition, Arabs and people who look "Arab" are routinely attacked, Sikhs have been targeted, Hindus have been targeted, Arabs have been targeted; many have been murdered. A Mosque once found burnt Qurans on its front entrance, a Hindu temple had its idols smashed (in WI, IIRC) by vandals. While all of this is undeniably tied to developments, either socioeconomic, world events or otherwise, yet you ignore it. Why?

I have not ignored it, you are simply attempting to deflect my point. That point of course was the marked rise in attacks on Jews because of the war. It is you who are attempting to "white-wash" attacks against Jews as being unrelated and common.

You have insinuated a connection between posting opinions on the internet and these sorts of attacks and crimes. That is quite suggestive of the meaning I specified and that is a fact.

Let me ask you a question. If Iran and Belgium were at war and there was a huge wave of anti-Iranian propaganda being distributed on the internet, and then within a short amount of time of that propaganda being released mosques and Islamic cultural centers were being attacked and Muslims killed and in more than one of those incidents Belgians were the culprits, would it still be unconnected?

No, you are beyond wrong. As a matter of fact, what you just claimed is slander. What I am saying is that vandalism and these sorts of crimes do nothing to justify or validate Israel's actions of wrongdoing and injustice.

I never claimed that the attacks justified Israel's actions. I only claim that innocent Jews are being attacked.

And why did you ignore my questions on neo-nazis (as well as other points, I do believe)?

I didn't feel like bothering to deal with you over it since your obvious motive is to try and paint me as a racist. Neo attempts at conquest of online forums is a well known enough occurrence that you should have no trouble looking up the info yourself.

[manic expression]

101. I will

Yes, you tried to connect people expressing opposition to Israel with vandalism and attacks. That is ridiculous and anyone with a small shred of objectivity can tell you that.

That is just a pathetic claim. When Israel is killing countless civilians, murdering people, destroying an entire country and putting an entire people to the sword, Israel and only Israel is at fault for their actions and any opposition to those actions can be put squarely on that.

Yes, you have ignored it, you have ignored what other groups have been subjected to, and instead you are trying to portray what is happening to Jews in Europe as some unique circumstance. Every one of my examples had something to do with developments in the outside world, so they are very similar to the occurances and the situation in the middle east. What I am attempting to do is tell you the fact that this is not a very rare phenonomenon and that opposition to Israel has really nothing to do with these occurances.

Let me throw a similar situation at you (this one actually happened). That whole thing about 9/11 and people who looked "Muslimish" started being attacked and murdered was kinda like that. Something happened where Muslims did something terrible, and next thing you know, people are sending e-mails to each other about how Islam is evil and pretty soon, everyone from Arabs to Sikhs to Hindus are being beaten and summarily murdered. Would these disgusting acts be connected to just about everyone who disagrees with crashing planes into buildings full of innocent people?

Many people have been trying to say that these attacks now somehow make Israel's actions less disgusting or something to that effect. That is quite clear and you know that as much as anyone else.

No, I was not trying to paint you as a racist. I simply asked you a few questions on the neo-nazi movement because you seem to be so knowledgable about the subject. I happen to know the answers to those questions, and I was hoping to figure out if you knew the first thing about boneheads and what they do. I suspect that you don't.

[everythingsxen]

104. Your will?

Let us see if it triumphs. :sarcasm:

Yes, you tried to connect people expressing opposition to Israel with vandalism and attacks. That is ridiculous and anyone with a small shred of objectivity can tell you that.

That is just a pathetic claim. When Israel is killing countless civilians, murdering people, destroying an entire country and putting an entire people to the sword, Israel and only Israel is at fault for their actions and any opposition to those actions can be put squarely on that.

Once again you are attempting to give me an argument I did not make. There is a difference between opposition to Israel's current actions (Or in your case actual "Opposition to Israel") and baseless lies. The phrase "Israel is targeting civilians" is a lie; anyone with a small shred of objectivity can tell you that.

Yes, you have ignored it, you have ignored what other groups have been subjected to, and instead you are trying to portray what is happening to Jews in Europe as some unique circumstance. Every one of my examples had something to do with developments in the outside world, so they are very similar to the occurances and the situation in the middle east. What I am attempting to do is tell you the fact that this is not a very rare phenonomenon and that opposition to Israel has really nothing to do with these occurances.

In your own words the events you described had been going on for 25 years. And I have not ignored what happens to other groups. On the contrary I said previously that you are just dodging the issue. I searched for Mosques being attacked in the same way as has happened to Synagogues. The only thing I found was Muslim people strapping suicide bombs on themselves and blowing up Mosques. I also tried finding "anti-Arab" incidents; I found 1 "anti-Muslim" incident and it is years old. It was the vandalizing and attempted firebombing of a Sikh temple; then one of the members was stabbed (but not killed); so let's recap over the course of 2 years, 3 attacks against Sikhs; over the course of 2 weeks at least 6 attacks against Jews (one of which was fatal).

Let me throw a similar situation at you (this one actually happened). That whole thing about 9/11 and people who looked "Muslimish" started being attacked and murdered was kinda like that. Something happened where Muslims did something terrible, and next thing you know, people are sending e-mails to each other about how Islam is evil and pretty soon, everyone from Arabs to Sikhs to Hindus are being beaten and summarily murdered. Would these disgusting acts be connected to just about everyone who disagrees with crashing planes into buildings full of innocent people?

Were you trying to prove my point or your own?

Many people have been trying to say that these attacks now somehow make Israel's actions less disgusting or something to that effect. That is quite clear and you know that as much as anyone else.

I have no said that nor has anyone else said that. "We" if I may speak on behalf of others who denounce these sorts of attacks simply think it is wrong to target people who have nothing to do with a conflict thousands of miles away. I find attacking Muslim equally wrong for the same reasons. Fortunately I have much less denouncements to make about that, it seems to happen a lot less...

No, I was not trying to paint you as a racist. I simply asked you a few questions on the neo-nazi movement because you seem to be so knowledgable about the subject. I happen to know the answers to those questions, and I was hoping to figure out if you knew the first thing about boneheads and what they do. I suspect that you don't.

My mistake then. It sounded like you were. I know enough about the Neo's. As I said previously, if you wish to go down that rabbit hole, it is your business.

[manic expression]

111. No

"I will" means "I am going to".

Your arguments suggest what I have addressed. That much is clear. Furthermore, such statements are both not inaccurate and cannot be seriously attached to such incidents. As I've said, that much can be considered slander.

How nice of you to search for such incidents. Unfortunately, it is rarely reported. The "dot busters" weren't really covered at all, even though they terrorized an entire community for about 25 years. Moving on, your ignorance of these occurances do not make them any less real:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B266C1A4-450C-494E-8175-85AC7B301E99.htm
http://www.asianweek.com/2002_11_22/news_reports.html
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/special_reports/sept11/16_02/atta162.shtml
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JAS/is_11_31/ai_95954335

That is but a taste.

Correction, you FOUND 3 attacks on Sikhs. Look harder next time.

What that shows is that people who disagree with flying planes into buildings full of innocent people have no connection to the backlash from that on Arab-Americans and other groups.

You explicitly tried to make a connection between views which oppose Israel online and these incidents. That is not the case. Furthermore, you have less denouncements to make about attacks on Muslims and other groups simply because, IMO, you don't hear about them.

No problem, perhaps I could've clarified my intentions. The thing is that I find it vexing when one draws lines to a movement that one actually doesn't know too much about.

[everythingsxen]

112. Your continued repetition of invalid points makes them no more valid

Your arguments suggest what I have addressed. That much is clear. Furthermore, such statements are both not inaccurate and cannot be seriously attached to such incidents. As I've said, that much can be considered slander.

And your unfounded lies against Israel could be considered slander at best and incitements to violence at worst.

How nice of you to search for such incidents. Unfortunately, it is rarely reported. The "dot busters" weren't really covered at all, even though they terrorized an entire community for about 25 years. Moving on, your ignorance of these occurances do not make them any less real:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B266C1A4-450C-49...
http://www.asianweek.com/2002_11_22/news_reports.html
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/special_reports/sept11...
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JAS/is_11_3...

That is but a taste.

Correction, you FOUND 3 attacks on Sikhs. Look harder next time.

What that shows is that people who disagree with flying planes into buildings full of innocent people have no connection to the backlash from that on Arab-Americans and other groups.

But if the "dot busters" have been operating for 25 years, how can that possibly "prove" your point that after 9/11 attacks against Muslims increased? It sounds like it has been a pretty standard level of attacks over 25+ years...

And yes, I found 3 attacks on Sikhs, I am sure many more were not covered. Of course if we assume that there are three times as many attacks on Jews, then there are three times as many not covered by the news as well.

You explicitly tried to make a connection between views which oppose Israel online and these incidents. That is not the case. Furthermore, you have less denouncements to make about attacks on Muslims and other groups simply because, IMO, you don't hear about them.

No problem, perhaps I could've clarified my intentions. The thing is that I find it vexing when one draws lines to a movement that one actually doesn't know too much about.

Well, let me see. People online begin saying "ISRAEL MURDERS BABIES" and "ISRAEL IS INTENTIONALLY TARGETING CIVILIANS"; they then spread this filth far and wide across the internet over the course of a week and within that week attacks against Jews increase exponentially. I am sure it is just a coincidence! ;-)

As for me knowing nothing about the white-supremacist movement, you would be rather surprised at the things I know. More than one person assumes that because you are white, you are sympathetic to their vile, racist causes.

[manic expression]

115. Your refusal to comprehend them is the problem

No, my statements on Israel's criminal and atrocious actions are accurate and valid. Your attempt to say they incite violence or that they are invalid shows your contempt of the truth.

Once again, it is your incapability to comprehend a simple point that fails you. The dot busters were an example of a group which terrorized a populace with no media coverage, my 9/11 backlash example was separate. So no, it wasn't a standard level of attacks with the 9/11 backlash, but nice try. Please try to understand what you read next time. Next, the dot busters were related to immigration and socioeconomic factors, not so different from a development in the middle east.

No, you didn't find many of them, and I provided many examples of such attacks. You continue to ignore them, insisting on the 3 instances you found. Furthermore, the fact is that there were many attacks on Muslims and other groups after 9/11, and this has no connection with people who disagree with flying planes into buildings filled with people. The assertion that they are connected with those people is exactly what you are trying to say.

No, people saying that Israel murders babies are backed up by what Israel does. People saying that Israel has no respect for innocent life are correct. Your blind denial of what is actually happening changes absolutely nothing. Moving on, such statements have nothing to do with these incidents, and until you actually show a tangible link or an actual argument, you have nothing but your own pathetic and inaccurate opinions.

What are you talking about with "more than one person assumes..."? Seriously, explain yourself.

[everythingsxen]

120. Your will to not see anti-semitism is the problem

No, my statements on Israel's criminal and atrocious actions are accurate and valid.

No, they are not. You are not, I believe, either a member of the IDF on the ground fighting, in the IAF flying, a member of the military or the government of Israel. Therefore to say that Israel is de facto targeting civilians is quite clearly a lie.

Your attempt to say they incite violence or that they are invalid shows your contempt of the truth.

They do incite violence. Not necessarily your statements per se, but the exact same remarks repeated across a thousand websites does. I am sure you are simply a victim of the propaganda.

Once again, it is your incapability to comprehend a simple point that fails you. The dot busters were an example of a group which terrorized a populace with no media coverage, my 9/11 backlash example was separate. So no, it wasn't a standard level of attacks with the 9/11 backlash, but nice try. Please try to understand what you read next time. Next, the dot busters were related to immigration and socioeconomic factors, not so different from a development in the middle east.

No, you didn't find many of them, and I provided many examples of such attacks. You continue to ignore them, insisting on the 3 instances you found. Furthermore, the fact is that there were many attacks on Muslims and other groups after 9/11, and this has no connection with people who disagree with flying planes into buildings filled with people. The assertion that they are connected with those people is exactly what you are trying to say.

And once again it is you who is trying to convolute the discussion by bringing into it a non sequitor. That these "dot busters" you speak of carried out violence without media coverage for 25 years does not prove anything. There are quite a few anti-semitic groups that have been active in the U.S. and throughout the world for over 50 years. Most of those stories are never reported either. Racism happens against all groups.

Yes after 9/11 there was a rise in attacks against Muslims, Sikhs and anyone who had skin the right shade. However they dropped off quickly and they were relatively few and confined to the U.S.

On the other hand we are seeing a world-wide spike in attacks against Jewish people (or perceived Jewish people) and it has happened very quickly in direct proportion to the slanderous accusations made against Israel and Jewish people in general on the internet.

No, people saying that Israel murders babies are backed up by what Israel does. People saying that Israel has no respect for innocent life are correct.

Except that the word "murder" is slander at best. Murder implies pre-meditation and it definitely speaks of intent. To say Israel is murdering babies is Blood Libel of the highest order. To say Israel has no respect for human life is also clearly and demonstrably a lie. Why do Israeli doctors even treat wounded Palestinians? Why do they treat suicide bombers? Why do they warn the Lebanese people days in advance before attacking?

Your blind denial of what is actually happening changes absolutely nothing.

My "blind denial" may change nothing, but your willful slander does.

Moving on, such statements have nothing to do with these incidents, and until you actually show a tangible link or an actual argument, you have nothing but your own pathetic and inaccurate opinions.

I think such statements do have something to do with these anti-semitic hate crimes against Jews, or "incidents" as you more casually call them. I have presented a perfectly clear and valid argument, you choose to not see it because you have already decided that Israel is evil incarnate.

And as far as my own "pathetic and inaccurate opinions", I find it interesting that in each response I have given, I can offer further and further points which validate my argument, yet in each of your posts you are seemingly only able to say "Attacks happen against Muslims too!" and "Israel murders babies" and of course "Israel targets civilians".

I think tonight I will pay for the souls of all those who's hearts are filled with hate, that the hate may wane and be replaced by love and reason.

[IntiRaymi]

86. As opposed to lebanese people who........?

The effectiveness of institutional violence greatly exceeds that of the random nutcase.
1 jewish person murdered. The rest are crimes against property.
Now, do yourself the favor of comparing this + the civilians killed in Israel, with the death toll in Lebanon + death toll in Gaza. And no, you are not allowed to say that Israel does not intentionally target civilians....because they have killed so many by now, that the opposite is quite obivous.
And then ask yourself: Aren't you being overly tribal, and being a bit over the top in demanding that all people support *your* tribe in an unquestioning manner? Because this is what you are doing by formulating, as you just have, this excuse of an excuse for censorship.
Now, please go educate yourself in the meaning of the 1st ammendment.

[everythingsxen]

89. I am well aware of the First Amendment

I am also aware that shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded theater is not considered protected speech.

The effectiveness of institutional violence greatly exceeds that of the random nutcase.
1 jewish person murdered. The rest are crimes against property.

1 Jewish person killed who was not a member of the IDF, 5 others wounded who are also not members of the IDF. That the rest are crimes against property has nothing to do with the fact that they are based on hate; moreover it has nothing to do with the fact that such incidents haven risen remarkably since the beginning of the online slander of Israel.

Now, do yourself the favor of comparing this + the civilians killed in Israel, with the death toll in Lebanon + death toll in Gaza. And no, you are not allowed to say that Israel does not intentionally target civilians....because they have killed so many by now, that the opposite is quite obivous.

Really? Is it quite obvious? How many civilians would be dead if Israel wasn't dropping leaflets, wasn't taking out Hezbollah sites only with surgical strikes. Yes there are misses and yes innocent people do die by mistake. That is the nature of war. To say that they are intentionally targeting civilians however is slander of the highest order and it is remarks like those that circulate around the internet and then someone who already has a nascent hatred of Jews turns around destroys a Jewish business because they believe that Israel is actually targeting helpless civilians. To be fair though I must make it clear that I am not accusing you of intentionally doing anything like that, you have been as misled by Hezbollah's propaganda as others. They are quite good at manipulation and fomenting hatred of Israel and Jewish people.

And then ask yourself: Aren't you being overly tribal, and being a bit over the top in demanding that all people support *your* tribe in an unquestioning manner?

Which tribe exactly is it that I belong to? The tribe of all humanity? The tribe of rational persons? I do not think I have asked for unquestioned support of my "tribe" whichever that may be. I have asked for people to not state as fact things that they cannot prove. I have asked for people to not use inflammatory rhetoric that is unproven and sounds very much like what groups like Islamic Jihad and StormFront have said for years.

Because this is what you are doing by formulating, as you just have, this excuse of an excuse for censorship.

As for this last point I am afraid I cannot fathom what exactly you are saying. As I read it, you seem to be saying that I am endorsing censorship because I don't think Jewish people should be attacked for Israel's actions.

Is that what you are saying?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. What About The First Amendment?

Your right to free speech ends at painting swastikas on my business.

[lastliberalintexas]

106. Seriously?

"Some people have used such outrageous, vile, venomous comments about Israel that it has really fired up people. Especially on the internet."


And you honestly think that it is the words posted by insignificant people on the internet that has people riled up rather than the actual actions of the Israeli "leaders"? Israelis and Jews are unfortuntely being punished for the actions of the government of Israel, on a far worse scale but similar in tone to how Americans have sometimes been treated abroad in the post-Bush era.

I'd be surprised if the hate was the result of bloggers or internet posts, rather than the result of the ACTIONS 2 wild-eyed crazy Neo-Con led governments, and the deaths of far too many innocents on all sides.

[everythingsxen]

121. There is a difference you must admit...

between reading a news article which says "Israel accidentally shells women and children" or "Israeli air-strike kills women and children" as opposed to the literally thousands of internet forums, blogs, "news" sites and other more sinister sites which provide a non-stop barrage of headlines that say "ISRAEL MURDERS BABIES!" and "ISRAEL INTENTIONALLY KILL CIVILIANS!"

And you honestly think that it is the words posted by insignificant people on the internet that has people riled up rather than the actual actions of the Israeli "leaders"? Israelis and Jews are unfortuntely being punished for the actions of the government of Israel, on a far worse scale but similar in tone to how Americans have sometimes been treated abroad in the post-Bush era.

If you honestly think that thousands of websites actively altering peoples perceptions of the war through slander is insignificant...

Even with the Iraq war, Americans are still relatively safe throughout most of the world. The attacks on Jewish businesses and places of worship is worldwide and not just in the Mid-East.

I am sure there would be some attacks on Jewish establishments, more than usual at least, however the number of attacks has been pretty high. Much, much higher than should statistically be happening. The internet is everywhere and hate speech is alive and well on it.

I'd be surprised if the hate was the result of bloggers or internet posts, rather than the result of the ACTIONS 2 wild-eyed crazy Neo-Con led governments, and the deaths of far too many innocents on all sides.

Why would you be surprised?

[barb162]

65. You give it a rest

This is about anti- Jewish bias, unless of course the vandals know for a fact these shop owners are Israeli or not.

[manic expression]

103. Right, the OP

is about anti-semitic crimes. That has practically nothing to do with people upset over Israel's recent actions (of injustice). That is one of the reasons that I said "concentrate on the OP".

[everythingsxen]

122. Except of course..

for the flyers the vandals left behind with the Hezbollah logo on it...

Still concentrating on the OP here...

[gulfcoastliberal]

73. Goodthing Iraq isn't being collectively punished cause of Bushie's revenge

Of course, the Iraqi death toll doesn't compare to Lebanon.

:sarcasm:

[Missy M]

10. These acts are reprehensible.....

and bigotry is alive everywhere. It seems it will never end.

[barb162]

66. That's a quite accurate conclusion

And these people who did this are sick

[QuestionAll...]

11. agents provocateur?

nah.
possible.
been done, tho.

[adriennui]

13. you forgot the sarcasm emoticon

eom

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Is Painting Swastikas On Jewish Owned Businesses Legitimate Protest?

If someone paints a swastika on my property while I'm around I'm dropping them.

[malaise]

22. I don't support the painting of swastikas

anywhere. I do support protesting against Israel's barbaric destruction of the Lebanese people and their country. I have no sympathy for people who show no humanity to others. Like I said, deal with it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Make Me

And there's no mention of legitimate protest in this thread; only a bunch of thugs fucking up other people's shit.

[malaise]

32. Take a good look at Lebanon

and see if you can understand the quintessence of (your words)fucking up other people's shit'?

You think slaughtering Lebanese children, women and civilizations and blowing a country to bits is legitimate? It's a fugging war crime - a violation of every convention known to humanity. I swear on my Jewish great grandfather's grave that I will show no sympathy to those who violate human law and decency. He'd be proud of me. He did unto others as he would have them do unto him. It's over - you're on your own - I have no sympathy left for Zionists.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Who's Talking About Zionists?

The seminal post was about the destruction of property believed to be owned by Jews, and the ironic thing is in their anger the miscreants destructed the property of some non-Jews as well.

[manic expression]

24. Some friendly advice

if you want to confront a bonehead, try to make sure you're not outnumbered. They won't show too much restraint, so be smart about it and you should come out OK.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I Appreciate Your Counsel

But it's my experience that people who do shit like that are cowards ...

[adriennui]

17. no one sympathizes with the holocaust anymore

it's been relegated to the dustbin of history. sleep well, the world is concentrating on perceived israeli misdeeds.

a little info though, i haven't heard too much from the neighbors, a little lip service perhaps, but you know that israel is doing the dirty work for the majority sunni nations.hezbollah is despised. a terrorist, is a terrorist, is a terrorist.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. I Could Give A Shit If People Don't Care About The Holocaust

Just don't paint swastikas on my property while I'm around or you will be fucked up.

[adriennui]

30. i agree with you.

there's an ill wind blowing...the anti-semites are coming out from under their rocks. israel is just the excuse.

[jackstraw45]

18. "deal with it"

Stop sympathizing with Holocaust victims because Israel bombs Lebanon.

DU has become a scary, scary place.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. This Sentiment Surprises You.

eom

[gulfcoastliberal]

64. And we're slaughtering Iraqis. give me your adress so I can vandalize

your home or business because of the Iraq conflict. Thanks in advance.

[barb162]

78. Whatever happened to peaceful protest, do you suppose

versus vandalism of this nature against people who had nothing to do, most likely, with the war

[barb162]

79. And what are Lebanese citizens doing to Israel? Over 200 rockets

were lauched from Lebanon today into Israel. Why do you suppose the vandals weren't going after Lebanese shops in Rome.
"Flyers signed by a group calling itself Armed Revolutionary Fascists were left at the shops denouncing "the Zionist economy" and including pro-Hezbollah slogans, Pacifici said."

[IntiRaymi]

87. You are confusing the issue.

Hezbollah is not the same as Lebanon.
Beyond that inaccuracy, your post is almost funny.

[everythingsxen]

91. Confusing what issue?

That Jewish business are being attacked by groups that want to overthrow "zionists" who have decided to affiliate themselves with Hezbollah, who in turn has attacked Israel repeatedly and forced Israel to defend themselves?

[kiki]

108. I could write and distribute a flyer

affiliating myself with the Magical Pixie Warriors of Glorfindel Forest if I wanted to. But that wouldn't necessarily make it so.

These sound like your old-fashioned European neo-Nazi types to me, hopping on a bandwagon. I'm not defending Hezbollah, but they have no control over who uses their name.

[everythingsxen]

123. It most likely is...

the old-fashioned neo-Nazis.

Who have a loose alliance if you will with organizations with Hezbollah and Iran, built on the mutual hatred of all things Jewish.

[KingFlorez]

25. It's not surprising

Under the premise of defending themselves, the Israeli government is putting more Jews in danger.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. More Jews Were Killed Prior To 1948 So It's A Net Plus

but I don't believe in collective responsibility.

[KingFlorez]

29. That's not the point I was making

My point is that Israel bombing Lebanon is causing trouble, it's putting just putting people in danger. I'm not saying anyone is collectively responsible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. I don't know what to say.

I don't know what to say.

Because Israel did something somebody didn't like it means individual Jews have to be subject to harassment.

Hmmmm.

So because a Jew invented the vaccine for polio and saved , i don't know, millions , all Jews get to wear a halo.

[KingFlorez]

36. You don't get it

I'm did not say individual Jews should be harrased, I am just stating the obvious, which is that Israel bombing Lebanon is creating a dangerous environment. You and I both know there are irrational people who will blame all Jews for what Israel does and that they are the ones targeting people.

[jonnyblitz]

42. many that support this Israeli incursion seem to not want to

admit there could be possible blowback of this sort as a result of what they support. I have noticed this. they want to believe that this is just a random act done out hatred or violence with no context. "they hate us for our freedoms". :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. I don't understand

"admit there could be possible blowback of this sort as a result of what they support."

I don't understand...

How could the miscreants who defaced the property in question have possibly known what the owners supported or didn't support?

[jonnyblitz]

50. I assume it wouldn't matter if they knew what each individual

owner supported as long each owner is of the ethnic group they are lashing out at. I just think it should be considered. Of course this is completely disgusting behavior and the shop owners don't deserve it in the least.It's gov'ts that the anger should be directed towards. I hope these assholes get caught.THis is terrorism as bad as a bomb in some respects.

[barb162]

80. Where did you get this "random act" stuff?

Acts done out hatred or violence are NOT random. Context? Anti-semitism has been around a few thousand years.

[jonnyblitz]

90. of course they aren't random I didn't say they were.

I SAID when some of us try to claim there is a REASON for these occurrences everybody jumps down our throats accusing us of claiming the acts were JUSTIFIED. grrr. its YOUR side that seems to get mad when we try to explain what they cause could be because you don't want to admit that this is blow back for this invasion. this sort of thing is to be expected! that's about as dumbed down as I can get my explanation.

you completely mis-represented my post is what you basically did. par for course.

[IntiRaymi]

88. It takes a serious effort to ignore the obvious conclusion here.

This is the first sign that you are in the wrong: When you go around demanding that people dispense with logic, if they are to see things your way.
This is a logical consequence of Israel's activities in Lebanon and Palestine.
(But only if they exceed the average for the year!
--Otherwise, it's only propaganda.)

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laura888]

35. Funny how these posts about possible anti-semitic acts...

...get much attention from certain posters who blindly support Israel.

Meanwhile, they completely ignore posts with photos of dead Lebanese children.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Is That A Shot?

[laura888]

38. If the shoe fits. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. You Think You Know Me But You Don't

But I feel better about myself for not having your approval.

[laura888]

41. When hundreds of innocent Lebanese are being slaughtered...

...I don't give a damn about anyone's opinion of me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Once Again You Think You Know Me But You Don't

and you're implying that I am unsympathetic to anyone's suffering reveals more about you than it can ever reveal about me.

[Behind the Aegis]

47. Funny how these posts...

..are called "possible" anti-Semitic attacks when it is very clear that is what they are. And it gets plenty of attention from anti-Israeli posters claiming that the acts are "justifiable, understandable," and what have you. All the while ignoring the very fact that attacks against Jews are happening because people are confusing Israel with Jews, which is something the anti-Israeli crowd is supposed to be against!

[barb162]

82. You're too sensible

stop that!

[gulfcoastliberal]

68. Funny how the Israel haters ignore the dead Iraqi babies.

Double standard? Cause there's a wholebunch more dead Iraqis than Lebanese. Guess you blindly support Bush.

[barb162]

84. You noticed too?

The Israel haters ignore the thousands of dead Somalian babies too.

[Wonk]

85. I'm not an "Israel hater" but I've objected to their invasion of Lebanon

and your post is utter bullshit. I opposed the Iraq invasion before it happened and still do, and I tried to draw some attention to the African famines as well. Your broad brush stereotype assertion that all people who object to Israel's recent aggressions do so simply because they're "anti-semitic" is offensive.

Your posting "me too" "me too" to certain posters all over this thread is rather annoying as well.

[Meshuga]

93. Since you are not an "Israel hater"

They are not talking about you. You don't fit the profile and you don't need to get defensive. But the bullshit that has been posted and thankfully deleted do exist and need to be pointed out.

[barb162]

109. Sorry to tell you there is no broad bush and you saying there is

is BS. These boards are filled with "woe" over Qana but there's next to nothing on these boards about kids in Somalia. Facts are facts and your not seeing the facts is pretty annoying as well.

[gulfcoastliberal]

99. Yep and they ignore the horrific abuses of women under Sharialaw in Iran.

Like the 16 year old girl publicly stoned to death for being accused of engaging in sexual activity. Apparently that's A-OK, since it's an (albeit exremist) Islamic thing. Imagine if Israel did something like that.

[barb162]

81. "possible " anti-semitic acts?

Jewish shop owners having swastikas painted on their stores is "possible" anti-semitism?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

118. I did a double-take on that too

:crazy:

[Wonk]

48. Well, that's ugly behavior, a hate crime, but it was also predictable.

[cali]

51. This is simple.

It shouldn't take any tortured analysis. It's simple ugly bigotry and it's wrong.

[Literate Tar Heel]

52. it's not just anti-Semitism

racism of all kinds is very much alive in certain sections of the Rome population ... check out some of the incidents involving fans (and players) of Rome's Lazio football club in the past several years ... some truly frightening and despicable behavior

[Sugarcoated]

54. I can't believe what this place has become.

I can't believe what I'm reading.

[barb162]

60. That makes two of us

[Codeine]

62. It's fucking sickening. n/t

[gulfcoastliberal]

74. Yep some on this thread support Swastikas on Jewish businesses as legit

Pretty scary that people have no concept of history. Or maybe they do, and think the Holocaust was a "good thing". Perhaps they should visit Auschwitz, read about the pogroms in Russia, etc..

Or just go join the Taliban. Or their local chapter of the Nazi party.

[laura888]

75. Hmmm....What are you talking about? n/t

[gulfcoastliberal]

77. Read the thread.

Edit,since you're too lazy to read the responses tothis hideous act:

I hate all fascists but see no problem with protests condemning Israel for the slaughter in Lebanon. The world is offended - deal with it.

That's tacitly supporting Nazi vandalism as legitimate "protest"against Israel because a Jew owns a business. Maybe you should take some history classes.

[Jacobin]

56. Muslims got the same treatment after 9/11 if i remember correctly

It is sad that people's frustration with a country is taken out on the innocents

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. Yes- That's Despicable Too

A bunch of yahoos even attacked a Sikh in the misguided notion he was Muslim.

[Codeine]

63. The difference is

nobody at DU tried to justify or qualify the attacks on Muslims. :-(

[jonnyblitz]

71. just because somebody cites a possible cause of the attack

it doesn't mean they are claiming the attacks are justified. I think some of you guys are fudging the issue to feign outrage as usual.

[Codeine]

72. It wasn't a cause, it was an excuse.

Israel didn't create anti-Semitism, anti-Semitism created Israel. The knuckle-draggers will pounce on any excuse to justify their hatred of Jews, just like they used 9-11 to pounce on their hatred of Muslims.

[jonnyblitz]

94. can't argue with that.

"an excuse" DOES sound like a better way to put it. I appreciate your post.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

119. The cause is hate n/t

[Jacobin]

97. Some did

Not 'justify', but understood that there is a percentage of people who are rascals (for lack of a better word), looking for an excuse to hate, to vandalize, to kill, to act out their own bitterness and unhappiness with their own lot in life. Any excuse will do to act out on the hate. It doesn't matter what the excuse is. Its just a match for the fuse.

Perhaps Muslims need to develop an epithet like 'anti-semitism' to use to describe such attacks....oh wait, they are semitic, too.

:-)

[Behind the Aegis]

110. .

:eyes:

"Perhaps Muslims need to develop an epithet like 'anti-semitism' to use to describe such attacks....oh wait, they are semitic, too."

They have one, it is called ISLAMAPHOBIA!

[rinsd]

107. Bingo...a sad fucking commentary on the events if you ask me.

:-(

[barb162]

61. Seems like late 1930s Germany

"swastikas defacing nearby walls"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. Here's My Problem

And if I'm wrong I'd like a logical explanation of why I'm wrong.

The original post was about acts of anti-semitic vandalism. It morphed into a discussion of Israel's sins. I thought it was verboten to conflate Jews and Israel on this board but yet this is what this thread became all about.



I'm going to bed but I'll look at in the morning.


Peace

DSB

[barb162]

83. You're not wrong

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. The Middle East conflict was mentioned in the Haaretz article (n/t)

[Posteritatis]

124. Conflating them's increasingly popular/acceptable lately. (n/t)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. Can we agree?

Can we all agree that painting swastikas on businesses that (might) be Jewish owned, a bunch of toughs beating up a hapless Jewish kid in France, and defacing synagogues in Miami are not legitimate expressions of outrage to the Israeli occupation?

[newyorican]

98. Stupid...

but not surprising.

At least the perps aren't using bombs...yet.

[lastliberalintexas]

105. How horrible

And what- the fact that some of the shop owners weren't actually Jewish makes this attack any less heinous? I really don't understand the article's point there. One of the saddest parts is that when the perps are found, they'll likely be children or young adults themselves, poisoned by hatred of NeoNazis. :(

[Guaranteed]

113. Fuck 'em both. nt

[everythingsxen]

114. Fuck who both, exactly? (NT)

[oberliner]

116. Shouldn't that be "fuck whom" ?

:)