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SharonRB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:24 PM
Original message
Another point of view -- from a Lebanese woman speaking for Israel
Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out:

I'm proud and honoured to stand here today, as a Lebanese speaking for Israel , the only democracy in the Middle East . As someone who was raised in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the Arabic world.

I was raised in Lebanon , where I was taught that the Jews were evil, Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.

When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water.

It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon . My mother was wounded by a Moslem's shell, and was taken into an Israeli hospital for treatment. When we entered the emergency room, I was shocked at what I saw. There were hundreds of people wounded, Moslems, Palestinians, Christians, Lebanese, and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn't see religion, they didn't see political affiliation, they saw people in need and they helped.

For the first time in my life I experienced a human quality that I know my culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of the Israelis, who were able to love their enemy in their most trying moments. I spent 22 days at that hospital. Those days changed my life and the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to television. I realized I was sold a fabricated lie by my government, about the Jews and Israel , that was so far from reality. I knew for fact that, if I was a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown over to the grounds, as shouts of joy of Allah Akbar, God is great, would echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets.

I became friends with the families of the Israeli wounded soldiers: one in particular Rina, her only child was wounded in his eyes.

One day I was visiting with her, and the Israeli army band came to play national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem , Rina and I started crying. I felt out of place and started walking out of the room, and this
mother holds my hand and pulls me back in without even looking at me.
She holds me crying and says: "it is not your fault". We just stood there crying, holding each others hands.

What a contrast between her, a mother looking at her deformed 19 year old only child, and still able to love me the enemy, and between a Moslem mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a few Jews or Christians.

The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil.

Once upon a time, there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell for anyone who would intentionally murder a child. Now, the intentional murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian "armed struggle".

However, once such behaviour is legitimized against Israel, it is legitimized every where in the world, constrained by nothing more than the subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of god.

Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from Nairobi to New York , from Moscow to Madrid , from Bali to Beslan.

They blame suicide bombing on "desperation of occupation". Let me tell you the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the Jewish state occurred ten weeks before Israel even became independent.

On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948 , in anticipation of Israel 's independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben Yehuda Street , in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem . Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the "desperation" of "occupation", but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.

So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of religious bigotry and intolerance. It's time to all stand up, and support and defend the state of Israel , which is the front line of the war against terrorism.

Be sure to send this one out to everyone you know
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. just wondering what Madison avenue team hired her...
first thought was the incubator story in Kuwait.
reflex yes, maybe unfair.
but that's what I've Iearned from bad examples.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Sick Uncle Tom. Bet she's making some serious bucks.
How long before we find out she grew up in Detroit?
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Uncle Tom?
Good Lord.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Damn straight, an Uncle Tom.
"The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil."

What bullshit. This is the same kind of garbage we get from our own RW nutjobs.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. How do you know she's wrong?
Faith? Hope? Experience?

It appears she has had quite the experience. I'd like to hear how yours is different.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Experience.
Considering I'm a Muslim and have been to the Middle East and South Asia several times, I think I know a thing or two about the Muslim world.

You may buy into the good and evil, black and white, clash of civilizations kind of nonsense, but most of us know better.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Do you think she's fabricating her experience?
Or was there really a purging of Christians where she lived?
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. No. The problem is her "experience" is fashioned as the "truth."
"The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil."

Now, how do YOU know she's right?
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. I don't know if she's right...
...but lets say her experience is accurate. What should she have taken from it? "Not all Muslims are bad?"

Should an Iraqi whose family has been slaughtered by one of our bombing runs be careful to remember that "not all Americans are bad," or wouldn't you be as hard on him? ("Uncle Tom!")

If not, why the disparity?
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. In both cases, yes they should.
Even in Israel's case, I've had many discussions with Muslims and non-Muslims whom I've had to remind that they shouldn't broadbrush Israel and all Israelis for the actions of their government and RW nutjobs.

I don't expect this Malkin-wannabe to have taken from her experience, "not all Arabs/Muslims are bad," but I don't excuse her from taking from it, "all Arabs/Muslims are bad/evil."
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Where did she say all Arabs were evil?
You really expect an Iraqi with a slaughtered family to remember that not all Americans are bad? And if he didn't remember that, you'd call him an "Uncle Tom" for making that mistake?

Not that this woman did that. I saw a condemnation of the Arab world, which I took to be the culture that their leaders have created. I don't see an attack on all Arabs.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Poor analogy.
Yes, I would call this Iraqi the equivalent of an "Uncle Tom" if he/she were born and raised in the US. If this Iraqi were born and raised in the US, he/she should know better than to broadbrush and stereotype all Americans as complicit in the invasion of Iraq and murder of his family.

Oh, wow. You've got to be kidding me... you took this to be a criticism of leadership in the ME? If that was the case, I wouldn't have a problem with this. However, this person works almost exclusively with broad generalizations, stereotypes, and tunnel-vision.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Right -- after all, there aren't Arabs in their Arab World.
It is made up of Klingons.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
49. How do we know she even exists, except on the pages of some PR agency?
Come on. There's NO way this little screed should be taken as face value with NO verification at all!

Prove that these are the words of real person speaking at a real event first -- THEN judge their value.

sw
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
57. How do you know she's not wrong?
"It appears she had quite the experience."

Sure appears that way.
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SharonRB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. This is exactly right ...
and it's exactly what the former head of the IDF I heard speak last night said.

The goal of Hezbollah is to kill civilians. Israel does not kill civilians intentionally.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. You got a link for that bullshit you posted? Thanks for the laugh, though
:rofl:

:rofl:
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SharonRB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. It was e-mailed to me, so I don't have a link
Here's a link with more info about her, though:

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/

And, by the way, just because you disagree with it, doesn't make it bullshit. Maybe you should check and learn more about the history of Israel and the Jews and the years of persecution they faced wherever they (we) went. None of this is all black and white -- no one is completely wrong and no one is completely right. That's what makes this whole situation so difficult -- there's no easy answer. Your laughing about it doesn't help.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
54. Thanks -- sterling organization you're citing.
All their advisory board members are big faves of FOX News and assorted right wing publications such as FrontPage magazine. Nice group -- just the people I'd trust to deliver the straight, unvarnished truth -- NOT

Did it slip your mind that DU is a Democratic/liberal/progressive board? That we don't much truck with right wing sources?

sw
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
59. Where did the former head of the IDF speak last night?
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SharonRB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. At the Jewish Community Center of Metropolitan Detroit
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Yeah I'd say it fits
Characterizing the entire Arab world the way she does. Though, I know there are plenty of people here on DU who would agree with her, and that think Arabs are nothing more than woman hating, jew hating, america hating, islamo fascists.

Makes me feel real welcome sometimes.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Which Arab country do you live in? n/t
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. I don't currently
And neither does she...does that invalidate both our points?
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Sorry, then. Which one did you grow up in? n/t
I have a very good friend who is Iranian, but he is a lapsed Muslim and left so early in life (when the Shah fell) that he identifies more with Florida than Tehran.

When did you emigrate, and why? I'm not trying to pry, I'm just curious.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Ok, first of all...
Iranians/Persians aren't Arabs...Lets just knock that one aside for now.

Second of all I've lived all over...

Rushed answer because wife and daughter are almost home and I'm cooking dinner...

I've lived for one span or another in various spots in the U.S., London, Athens, Beirut, Amman, and have much family in Baghdad, though we've gotten most of them out, including my grandmother not even two months ago...tough drive for an 80 year old hauling all her stuff in a tiny beat up 30 year old car across the desert to Amman. We flew her out from there...Anyway didn't really grow up anywhere in particular.

Still an indictment on the entire culture is sort of lame. Most of us are completely nice people. Labelling the entire Arab world as barbaric and evil is idiotic and racist. Coming from another Arab, I have to question where she actually came from and what fucked up life experience she had...
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Sounds like you've had an interesting life.
I read her remarks differently, and think she was speaking of the world the Arab leadership has created vs. the world the Israeli leadership has created. I didn't see it as targeting every Arab out there.

You know, it's like condemning Israel without being anti-semetic.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. I'll tell you what I didn't like
"The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil."

Other people have quoted it. She compared 'the Arabic world' which I consider myself a part of even if I am living currently in the states, to Israel.

Israel
Values, Character, Civilization, Democracy, Goodness

Arab World
Bad values, Lack of character, barbaric, dictatorial, Evil.

She wasn't just describing the governments. She was describing Arabs of all types colors, kinds creeds, religions, etc.

The only part I would agree with is the Democracy/Dictaatorship part..The rest is vile and racist.
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SharonRB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. I don't generalize and say that "all Arabs" are like that
I don't think they are, at all. However, the extremist factions in the Arab world are like that and their numbers are growing.

I also think it's a vicious cycle -- try to stop the extremists, and it breeds more extremists. It has to end somewhere or the whole world will blow up and it won't matter.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. I don't think she said all Arabs were like that either.
I read a condemnation of the world the Arab leaders have created, and not an attack on every Arab. There is some evidence to suggest Arab leadership hasn't created the most pleasant and tolerant culture out there, I'd say.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #45
94. n/t
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 08:37 PM by smirkymonkey
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
102. She basically does, though
And that's the problem w/this speech.
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
41. you Are welcome.
and don't let anyone tell you other.
there are a whole lot less crazy people here than you think.

lots of shyness and fear around this issue.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
50. I have seen the anti arab sentiment here.
some don't even bother to veil it. it's usually the same people who are fast and loose with the antisemitism charge.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. I've seen that too
I've lost a tremendous amount of respect for a few particular DU'ers who I used to really like until they made some really nasty statements.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #52
63. This has been quite the education...and disappointment.
You think of DU'er as being caring, peace-loving progressives. Wow - I have been stunned by the racism and war-mongering.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #63
83. and I will never forget who they are either. nt
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. Nor Will I n/t
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
88. I Have Too (Lost Respect)
however my respect was lost on DU'ers who I had previously had respect for who are so adamantly anti Israel

I'm not anti Arab

I'm anti terrorist (Hamas, Hizbollah, al Queda, etc)

Most Muslims are not terrorists. Most Christians are not terrorists. Most Jews are not terrorists.

The ones that are give all of us bad names.

Funny how the ones that are claim to be the most fervent believers within their identified religion/culture

I support Israel in the battle to stop Hizbollah. I don't support her in any battle to wipe out Arab peoples, or any people period.

The tragedy is that bad shit happens in war, and civilians die.

They die on both sides of this conflict.

Peace to you and yours, and I would lose respect for anyone that was anti Arab as much as I would for anyone that was anti Christian, anti Jew, anti Semite, anti Persian, etc.

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AliceWonderland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
122. Sigh, I hear you -- the anti-Arab sentiment is so much a part of culture
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 09:09 PM by AliceWonderland
There's a lot of implicit (and heck, explicit) racism against Arabs that's hard not to take personally. But it should be all about human dignity and human rights, for all regardless of race or religion, and compared to what so many in the world are suffering, hateful words are very little indeed.
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SharonRB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. A bit cynical, aren't you?
Why can't you believe this really happened to her? I heard the former head of the IDF speak last night. It was pretty depressing -- the way things are heading now, and if they're allowed to continue (and I don't mean what Israel is doing -- I mean what the Arab states and the Islamic world have been doing), we're heading toward worldwide destruction and all-out war between the West and Islam. Someone needs to step up and try to stop it.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a cease-fire if I thought it would last or that Lebanon/Iran/Syria would stick to any promises they might make. However, I don't see it happening. Iran is totally behind what's been going on in Lebanon with Hezbollah and they and others have been getting away with it for years. No one has retaliated and tried to do anything about it. It's time for it to end or we'll all be paying for it for years to come.
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. no, not a bit. Very. nt
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
81. It's a real speech
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 08:37 PM by Marie26
From her speech, it sounds like she is Christian. The Maronite Christians were massacred by Muslims (and vice versa), during the 1970's civl war. And one of the reasons Israel gave for the 1982 invasion was to protect the Maronite Christians. So she probably feels a debt of gratitude to Israel for that. And it might have radicalized her position on Islam. I don't agree w/a lot of what she's saying & it seems pretty broad brush. But agree or disagree, it is a real point of view.

I checked into who Brigette Gabriel is, & she is a Lebanese-American, who emigrated to the US in 1989. Before that, she was a news anchor for a Middle East channel news program & TV news producer. Since coming to the US, she has founded an organization called "American Congress for Truth". This org. has a definite agenda - "to inform, educate, inspire, motivate, network and empower millions of uninformed Americans about the threat of militant fundamentalist Islam." Hmm. It seems like her story is true & I'm sure she believes in her agenda here - but she does have an agenda. The Board of Advisors for ACT includes lots of conservatives like Woolsey, Gen. Valley & Walid Phares.

http://americancongressfortruth.com/index.html

This particular speech was delivered a long time ago & has lived on since in email forwards. It looks like she gave this speech at a "Students Against Terror Concert and Rally," at Duke University on October 14, 2004. this was a "counter-rally" before the "Palestinian Solidarity Conference" the next day. Her speech was pretty controversial at the time. "How not to have a dialogue," - http://www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2004/10/22/Columns/How-Not.To.Have.A.Dialogue-777733.shtml?norewrite200608022136&sourcedomain=www.browndailyherald.com
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. she speaks out for Israel
so she must be lying, no?
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Let's just say she is suspect.
The right wing loves her apparently.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. I'm an Arab and I'll speak out for Israel
I'll just do it without refering to the rest of my family as barbaric and evil jew haters.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. The question was . .
. . where and when did you live in an Arab/Muslim state?
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Not in this post
That was a question above and I answered it.

I wonder why I feel defensive...
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #51
69. Sorry, missed your previous answer.
I see now that you have lived in cities like Amman and Beirut where there is Arab influence - but I always thought those were fairly moderate, modern places - compared to Tehran or Cairo, for example.

It seems to me from what I have read (probably not accurate being written by westerners mostly) and from reading between the lines in news accounts that Arab political culture tends to organize around strong male figures and that any Arab young males who see themselves competing in that culture are compelled to buy in to that mode of interaction. i.e. identify with a particular sect and leader and develop relationships and credibility and work for greater power within that organization.

Is that way off base in your experience. If so, is there another dominant mode of cultural organization available? I'm speaking of places like Cairo and Tehran. And I'm using political to mean religious as well.

Thanks in advance for any answers you might provide.

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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. I'll do my best
First of all Tehran isn't an Arab city, it's Persian. Islamic yes, but Arab no. Personally I find the cultures very simliar in some ways, and completely different in others. Sometimes I can very much empathize with some of my Persian friends, and other times...well it's just a different culture.

On top of that there really is no 'standard arab culture'. It's so different from city to city, country to country. What is the 'arab world' anyway. Some people I know wouldn't even include Egypt or North Africa in that grouping, saying that Egyptians aren't Arabs...They're Egyptians. This group pretty much isolates Arabs to mean certain peoples in Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, and the Arabian Penninsula and it's various countries.

Accepting a broader view, the cutlures are just so vastly different. Morroccan to Libyan, to Egypt, to Jordan to Iraq, to the Gulf states...A person's experience in the Arab world would be vastly different had they been in Beirut, or Baghdad 30 years ago, or Aden or Cairo. They're all so different. Heck even the language is different. The dialects can be so different that it can be very hard to understand people. Sure there is 'modern standard arabic' but nobody speaks that. For instance they'll teach you to ask what time it is in an Arabic class with "Kam Al Sah'ah?" (Literally 'what the time'). Meanwhile in my families dialect of Arabic you'd just say "Sabash?"

That's part of my point about the intial read. She has an experience, probably harrowing, in one tiny corner of the middle east and then blankets the whole 'Arab World' with the labels of barbaric and evil. I just object to that.

Now to more directly cover some of your questions...Amman and Beirut are more moderate modern places, though Beirut obviously just took a few big steps backward in the past few weeks and who knows what's happening with Amman now. Word from my family there is that entire neighborhoods are becoming filled with Iraqi refugees now, and that Amman itself is turning into Baghdad 2: Electric Boogaloo. It's going to undergo some rapid changes I think. I can't really speak to Cairo as I never lived there and my time there felt rushed and like my life was always in jeapordy from cab drivers putting their faith in Allah, rather than checking their mirrors...seriously...

Anyway...as far as the aspect of the culture i'm most familiar with would be upper middle class and upper class arabs from Iraq (both Baghdad and Mosul). Not exactly Sadr City. Still my family was involved in Iraqi politics from their inception, and the Ottoman Empire prior to that. I'm descended from Mayors of Baghdad, as well as an Iraqi Prime Minister...I'll let you try and guess which one...hint...pre-1960...I'd say that poltics does tend to gravitate around strong male figures, but to say that women are looked down upon would be totally wrong. The men, at least in most of the families I know, may go out and have the power jobs and make the money...but the women are in charge. There's no question about that. My father may be the patriarch of the family now, but his mother and sisters are in charge. Period. What they say goes.

So dunno. I can't provide really any clear answers, because there aren't any. That's my point entirely. Labelling the Arab World as a whole as barbaric and evil is stereotyping and racist. Labelling a specific terrorist group as barabric and evil? I'm all behind that. Labelling a specific government and their policies as backwards and hard on women...yeah that exists...The whole thing though? Racist, and coming supposedly from another arab...just upsetting...

I hope that answers some of your questions. If I totally missed the mark let me know and I'll try again.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Deconstructing the monolith is a hard task...
... but you put a pretty good dent into it. Wonderful post. :applause:
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. thanks for a really terrific and enlightening post
:thumbsup:
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #74
130. I'll add my thanks.
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 09:35 PM by msmcghee
That took some time for you and some effort. It does answer some of my questions about Arab culture. But not exactly the one I was asking.

I suspect that woman is faced with a similar problem that I have - only being familiar with a small part of the whole.

I think I can boil my question down to a bigger one. It seems to me that when human societies organize you've got a spectrum - with egalitarian democratic forms at one end and authoritarian male-dominated strong-man type organizations at the other.

Why is it that Arab states pretty much all seem to cluster at the bad end of that spectrum?

I've got my own ideas but I'm sure they are half-baked. I'd love to hear your take on this if you have the time.

Thanks

PS - Please PM if this thread gets locked.
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
132. you must answer and show your papers!!!
sheeesh.
I get the sense you are Demanded to reveal this of yourself.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. "Barbarism vs civilization" . Dissing her OWN? That's an Uncle Tom, baby
of the highest, sickest, saddest order. But I'll bet she's getting paid!

Which would make her a Ho', too.
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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
73. We diss our OWN every minute of the day here.
We constantly, constantly go off on Americans. How stupid, ignorant, uninformed they are. How they're dumbasses, brainwashed, lazy, care more about American Idol blah blah blah.

Just sayin. How is it different that it makes you so sick and sad when a Lebanese woman goes off but when an American rips on America and Americans it's exercising our right to free speech and "dissent is the highest form of patriotism", etc.

We diss Christians, we diss Israeli's, we diss Arabs, we diss Republicans, we diss Democrats on our OWN team, you name it, we diss it.

I personally would like to see more and more WOMEN who feel oppressed by their culture in any part of the world come out and diss the people who have oppressed them. Maybe it will spark some change.


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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Let me field that
Sterotyping people from a country, may not be great, but it's better than stereotyping people from a race.

We diss people all the time, but we don't label them as just plain evil and peoiple let it slide. If someone came on here and said

"The difference between White People and Black People is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil."

How would people react to that? That's not a straw man. That's what this person said. It would be like someone posting a black person's talk essentially calling their community evil, barbaric, valuless, characterless, etc...Except they called arabs that. It's racism. Racism is bad.

Saying America sucks is politics. Saying Arabs are evil barbarians is racism.
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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Thank you for your response.
I am asking you this question sincerely: is it at all possible that this person's opinion could be reflective of a feminist perspective of the Arab culture. Not that all women would have the same perspective, of course. But is it possible that some women could understandably have a "racist" so to speak perspective of a culture they grew up around based on the way they saw themselves or other women treated?

This question goes beyond this Lebanese woman. I genuinely have an interest in learning about the subject of women's treatment and attitudes in Arab countries. Though you're not a woman, you may have a perspective on the matter I can learn from. Thanks.

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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. ???
I don’t see where a feminist perspective factors into this person’s diatribe against Arabs and Muslims. A misogynist could have very easily written the same exact piece. I’m curious as to how you came to assumption that this had anything to do with feeling oppressed as a woman.

Whether or not one can *understandably* have racist attitudes based on some experiences they might have had growing up, does not make those racist attitudes in any way *acceptable*.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. Also, I think you might be very interested in this book...
Western Representations of the Muslim Woman: From Termagant to Odalisque
by Mohja Kahf
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0292743378/sr=8-8/qid=1154566939/ref=sr_1_8/002-2496868-0052842?ie=UTF8
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Wow that looks really interesting
Putting that on my wish list. :)
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Yes, I've only read part of it...
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 08:14 PM by Hatalles
... but what I read is very good (in the middle of about 4 books right now, =). I've actually been in contact with Dr. Kahf on and off the last few months. Syrian American Muslim, btw. Very nice lady. And she's coming out with a new novel soon too. :D
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. It's something I've thought about before
How the modern 'hollywood' version of muslim women is the burka, take it back to the times of the caliphs and all of a sudden the veils are sheer and you can see every little curve, etc. Like something out of I Dream of Jeannie with more flesh. I didn't know it went back even further than that.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #90
101. See post #92
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. Hmm. Maybe, but probably not.
I think that she was a Lebanese Christian who got the brunt of some violence during the civil war, if I had to guess. Plenty of hate went around on all sides during that little fracas. If she is a maronite christian, and she fled from the violence of the civil war, I'd think that has more to do with her opinons of the arab and muslim world than any treatment of women.

As far as how arab women are treated it again varies greatly, from not being able to drive a car in Saudi Arabia, to bikini contests in Beirut, to members of parliament or the government in a number of countries. On the whole it's not up to the levels in America, but personally I think there is plenty of room for improvement, not just in the Arab world, but here in America as well.

As far as my family goes, the women are in charge(they tell us men what to do generally) and all have 'real' jobs, like architects, running a relief organization, teachers, lawyers, etc.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
96. See post #92
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Having not heard of her before, I did a quick google of her name
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 04:31 PM by Wonk
and WOW is she popular at freerepublic.

http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:www.freerepublic.com+Brigitte+Gabriel

Also, maybe someone should let her know that Lebanon had an election and a democratically elected government as of 2005?
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
32. My, they love her at FreeRepublic. Good catch, Wonk!
This is just Page 1 of Google:

Results 1 - 10 of about 3,080 from www.freerepublic.com for Brigitte Gabriel. (1.00 seconds)
A Lebanese Survivor of Hezbollah Terror (excellent interview of ...
Brigitte Gabriel has a story to tell and she does not hold back! ... A message from Brigitte Gabriel at her website, "American Congress for Truth" ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1675417/posts - 11k - Aug 1, 2006 - Cached - Similar pages

Keyword
Frontpage Interview guest today is Brigitte Gabriel, a survivor of Islam's Jihad against Lebanese Christians. She is now an expert on the Middle East ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=lebanesechristians - 69k - Cached - Similar pages

Keyword
Iconoclast ^ | By Brigitte Gabriel "Thank you Israel," is the sentiment echoing from around the ... FamilySecurityMatters.org ^ | 7/17/06 | Brigitte Gabriel ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=thankyou - 98k - Cached - Similar pages

Keyword
Featured speakers include: Dr. Andrew Bostom David Horowitz Dr. Harvey Kushner Daniel Pipes Robert Spencer Dr. Paul Williams Brigitte Gabriel Joseph Kaufman ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=symposium - 47k - Cached - Similar pages

Thank You, Israel
Brigitte Gabriel grew up in South Lebanon as the only child of a retired Christian governing administrator of the region and a successful businessman. ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1667454/posts - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

Islam's March Against the West
Brigitte Gabriel is an expert on the Middle East conflict and lectures nationally and internationally on the subject. She's the former news anchor of World ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1603532/posts - 44k - Cached - Similar pages

Keyword
Here's the interview you MUST listen to! Brigitte Gabriel has a story to tell and she does not hold back! Audio links for Part 1, 2 and 3 of the interview ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=hezbollah - 97k - Jul 31, 2006 - Cached - Similar pages

"THANK YOU, ISRAEL!" -- Exiled Lebanese Christians Speak Out From ...
Iconoclast ^ | By Brigitte Gabriel. Posted on 07/18/2006 5:36:48 PM PDT by ... Brigitte Gabriel was one of the speakers at the America's Truth Forum ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1668155/posts - 49k - Cached - Similar pages

Keyword
... Guest:Brigitte Gabriel Station:WND Radioactive Voice Streaming available ... Time:7:15PM (Eastern) Host: Kyal Guest:Brigitte Gabriel Station: K-Talk ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=guest - 69k - Cached - Similar pages

Keyword
Islam's March Against the West By Brigitte Gabriel Excerpted from Brigitte Gabriel's speech delivered at the Intelligence Summit in Washington DC, ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/ keyword?k=clashofcivilizations - 101k - Cached - Similar pages
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
47. Figures.
From the people who brought you dead babies taken from incubators in Kuwait. Ta-dah!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
100. See post #92
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #100
133. Yep. From the same folks who brought us "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth"
Whenever I see the hyperpatriotic organization names, my "Big Lie" radar goes off big time. The FauxNooz/Neocon propaganda brigade never rests in peddling the lies.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
98. See post #92
:hi:
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. I love her generalizations
Particularly when Arabs are refered to as Barbaric and Evil. I mean...I put my elbows on the table and all but I don't know if I should be considered Barbaric or Evil...

Oh but she means the cultures. Like the ones my familys live in. Like my Grandmother and Grandfather (before he died). He was totally barbaric and evil. Now that he's gone my grandmother has to take up the slack. She smokes...is that enough for her to be evil?

Oh but all Arabs must be evil. They all hate 'the jews'. I saw it on T.V. so it must be true.
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. that script writer should be fired...
for transparency, what a piss poor job.
you would think, but no, this shit works on too many.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:39 PM
Original message
Interesting POV
I like the anecdotes but the language right here is over the top:

The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil.



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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. She lost me here:
"The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil."

This is not a well reasoned statement.

It is patently absurd to condemn the entirety of the Arab world as barbaric and evil.







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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. it's rascist, absurdly rascist.
Just switch the two about (arabs and jews) in what she said, and hear the screetching anguish and busted arteries through your monitor.


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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. a self-loathing arab perhaps? nt
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
105. Yeah, me too.
It's divisive & polarizing in an unecessary way. Arab = Bad, Israel = Good. Check.
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cracksquirrel Donating Member (251 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. Ooh...
Now THIS thread's going to be a real beute', ay?
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
111. Ay.
:popcorn: IBTL
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. Nonie Darwish wannabe?
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Maybe more of a Wafa Sultan wannabe.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. LMFAO! that's like "Chickens for Colonel Sanders"nt
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. Well I goggled 'Duke University Counter Terrorism' sans HER
and she must have been the ONLY speaker..cause it turned up NOTHING...nada...zero...here is the link... http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Duke+University+Counter+Terrorism+&num=50&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=Remarks+of+Brigitte+Gabriel&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images

I simply put in Duke University Counter Terrorism..and said leave out 'Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel' see for your self that NOTHING ELSE is posted..the INCUBATOR BABIES...SANS A REAL PERSON...THIS IS THE ARM CHAIR ISRAEL APPARATCHIK.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. I got lots of stuff.
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. I am SORRY...SHE was not at that conference..it was a bunch of
appointees from the bush administration to homeland security...SHE WAS NOT THERE..AND I SEE NO SUBSEQUENT MEETINGS...IF YOU CAN FIND...HER AND DUKE IN THE SAME PLACE..PLEASE...GIVE ME A LINK
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. I see what it probably was
It wasn't a Duke event. On October 14, 2004, Duke hosted the International Solidarity Movement conference, which attracted a lot of opposition groups. I guess she in one of them:

http://www.hfienberg.com/kesher/2004/10/annual-fall-migration-of-ism.html
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
33. How is this any different from Mel Gibson?
"The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil."
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
70. because its ok to say racist shit about muslims
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
40. I want to see a link. This sounds like just another apocryphal email
making its rounds.

At the very least, let's have a link to event itself -- you know, the "Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out". When did this event occur? Were there other speakers? Was it sponsored by the University itself? If not, who were the sponsors?

Maybe you are not aware of the fact that lots of bogus nonsense gets passed around on the web and email lists. It's true! All kinds of made-up bullshit gets passed around. You learn to verify before you swallow just any old thing hook, line and sinker. That's why critical thinkers and experienced web users ALWAYS insist on links.

sw
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. She's real
and the sentiments in the email concord with the stuff on her site:

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com

She's really in thick with rightwingers. James Woolsey is listed at the top of her board of advisors. Her email alerts highlight articles from the likes of WorldNetDaily, Horowitz, Powerline, etc. Here's an article she cites approvingly from Debbie Schlussel that says the US shouldn't pay for the evacuation of Americans in Lebanon because they're Hezbollah supporters:

http://cedarmailer.com/americancongress/pages/archive/messagedetails.asp?ID=477
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. Yeah, caught that. She's real -- a real tool for the right wing.
I saw the post where the OP finally posted a source, so I went to check it out. Hilarious! One of the big claims to fame for almost everyone on the "advisory board" is that they appear regularily on FOX news. Hey! Good enough for me! No WAY this could all just be rw propaganda, right?

:rofl:

sw
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
44. Oh yeah -- Incubator Babies in Kuwait. (nt)
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
58. I'm not going to doubt
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 05:34 PM by fujiyama
her experience in an Israeli hospital. Most likely, she was well treated by the Israeli doctors, who are mostly skilled and compassionate. I also have little doubt there is a lot of brainwashing in Arab states regarding the history of Israel and Jews in general, especially in a neighboring state. It is positive her perspective changed on that.

But unfortunately, her own perspective is clouded with bigotry in part. She is correct that the Israelis intervened in Lebanon on the side of the Christians (who were indeed mistreated at times by Shiites), but the Christian Phalangists also were responsible for atrocities in Lebanon.

The question here is not whether Arab doctors would not have treated the different injuries in the order of their severity, but whether the likes of Hezbollah would. In that regard, I'm certain they would not and would have no problem letting a Jew or Christian die. But that's what I'd expect from an extremist group.

But the question is would fanatics of other ethnicities and religions offer any better treatment? If one is capable of killing innocent lives in the first place, would such a person be any more compassionate? It is very doubtful an extremist RW Israeli or a fanatical Phalangist would have been much better than a Hezbollah type.

Of course, the extent of fanaticism in the Muslim world is troubling, as it is widespread in the leadership of their countries. But it is simply wrong, as she is doing, to claim that the Arab world is completely evil and uncivilized.

Also, regarding her addressing the Israeli declaration of independance - it is absolutely inexcussable and unjustifiable to kill civilians as was done that day, but the fear of being displaced and driven from their homes (as happened to thousdands of Palestinian Arabs) was an understandable cause of violence. It is impossible to claim that Israel's formation and claim to independance was peaceful or completely fair to the Palestinians.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
62. Is this a trend with Lebanese Christians? I think there is just
bad blood all around the ME.

For crying out loud the Lebanese Christian militias did the dirty work at Sabra and Shatila - how civilized is that?
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pennylane100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
64. So you were treated well by the Israellis, that sgood, but so what.?
That doesn't make it right that they are slaughtering men, women and children by the thousands, and I am sure that before this is over, the numbers will be much higher. Their "crime" is that their government was unable to contain Hezbolar.

The Isrealis, in their many efforts to destroy Hezbolar, invaded Lebanon and stayed there for many years. If they made any progress, it is not evident today. Do they deserve to bombed because the could not contain them.

As for your special place in Hell for people who kill children, does that apply to those who bombed the children of Quana, inspite of the fact that there were NO missile launchers near them.

What about the Palestian children playing on the beach when they blown to pieces by Israeli fire, do the perpetrators also go to hell, or is it a selective processs where only the killers of jewish children go and all other deaths are accidental.

And if you think that the Israelis are not doing their own brain washing, look at the little children writing their names and messages on bombs bound for the building that house and shelter lebonese children, or do you have an explanation for that too.

There are no good guys in this war, only inocent victims, and if you cannot recognize that, I feel sorry for you as you seem to be missing a soul.


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eissa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
66. My problem with this
is certainly not her feelings toward Israel. I think it's wonderful whenever Arabs and Israelis come together. My problem, like most of the respondents, is her generalization of her people. My Assyrian Christian family is also from the Middle East (Iraq). They were fortunate to be there during a time of rare peace when they had both Jewish and Muslim neighbors. Know what? They got along pretty well. There were the occasional bigots -- not like we don't have them here (Mel Gibson anyone?) One of my aunt's friends was a Muslim male co-worker (Kamal) at IPC (Iraq Petroleum Company). As a secretary to an English boss, she endured countless passes by the pervert and was constantly told she had to stay late "to take dictation." She would always ask Kamal to stay with her "just in case" and he always obliged, even though he had a family home waiting for him, and even though it irked the boss and put his own job in danger.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #66
77. Greetings
it's not everyday you talk to an Assyrian.

I agree with you. I think it's great when arabs and Israelis come together, and I certainly agree with her thoughts on that matter. As someone whose family also comes from Iraq I can back up your thoughts with simliar stories.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
67. That email is the biggest bunch of over the top.....
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 06:07 PM by Missy M
propaganda from the Right Wing I have read in a long time. It's hard to believe people will eat it right up, but they will. The crux of the whole email = Israel/Good - Arabs/Bad and the writer claims to be an Arab. That is the same as when I read about right wingers claiming they used to be Democrats BUT.......
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. shes definately a tool
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
72. She keeps some interesting radio company...very credible source
Gordon Liddy, Laura Ingraham, Linda Chavez, Frank Beckman (a local conservative WJR hack I'm sure you know of).

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/activityreport.html
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
78. I read at one of the links that she's a Maronite Christian
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 07:27 PM by Emit
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:9Oo7WRDebzoJ:www.americancongressfortruth.com/columbia-university-speech.html+Brigitte+Gabriel+maronite+christian&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

That is interesting because there is a lot of history between the Palestinians and Maronite Christians in Lebanon dating back to the period discussed in this essay:

The roots of the full-fledged war that erupted in 1975 could be traced to the intolerance of challenge felt by the Maronites towards the Muslims and Palestinians, a feeling that had been growing slowly since 1967. Palestinian refugees had been present in Lebanon since 1948 and the creation of Israel. In 1967, following the Arab-Israeli war, another flow of refugees entered the country, affecting the demographic balance, specifically that of Christians and Muslims, since 90% of refugees was Sunni Muslims. Up until 1969, Lebanon and the other Arab countries were generally supportive of the Palestinian cause and the right to revolution and statehood. The Palestinian Revolution represented to both Christians and Muslims, a worthy cause.

However, in 1969, following Israeli incursions onto Lebanese territory to strike at major Palestinian outposts, Lebanon’s borders became directly threatened. In 1969, the Lebanese government and the leader of the PLO, Arafat came to an agreement under the supervision of President Nasser of Egypt, to legitimize the Palestinian presence in Lebanon. Palestinian militias were given free reign to move about the country, and suddenly the Palestinians had become both real and physical. For the Lebanese Muslims, the Palestinians were their natural ally, a situation of strength in numbers. For the Maronites however, the increased presence embodied the sum of all their fears: a clearly dominant Muslim majority in the country. Lebanon’s security and borders were directly threatened and more importantly, Lebanon’s “Western” identity.

http://www.gse.harvard.edu/~t656_web/peace/Articles_Spring_2004/Karam_Evelyne_inciting_good_vs_evil.htm

I wonder how long it has been since she lived in the area? (I didn't read all the OP or links -- just skimmed it so the answer may be there.) But, why I ask is because I also read that a Maronite leader, Gen. Michel Aoun, had formed strong ties with Hezbollah leader Nasrallah:

In the 17 months since the assassination of former prime minister Rafik Hariri, and the expulsion of the occupying Syrians in the so-called "Cedar Revolution" (many locals prefer the same term as the Palestinians -- "uprising" or intifada), Hezbollah has manoeuvred skilfully, weaving itself deeply into the country's political fabric. The party now has 14 members in parliament, including two government ministers, and disavows any notion of moving Lebanon towards an Iran-like theocracy. Nasrallah has distanced himself from Damascus, without completely severing ties, and formed a strong alliance with Maronite Christian leader Gen. Michel Aoun, supporting his ambition to be the next president. (Under a 63-year-old informal agreement, Lebanon's president is Maronite Christian, the prime minister a Sunni, and the speaker of the parliament a Shia.)

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:NaGK_YxkJI8J:www.espacioblog.com/mydigest/categoria/maclean-s+Maronite+Christian+armageddon&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=27

Amy Goodman addresses the notion of Shia, Sunni and Maronite Christians merging in a united front now, too:

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regarding the cease-fire, I‘m sorry, why doesn‘t Hezbollah just return the two Israeli soldiers?

GOODMAN: Well, this is about a negotiation. I mean, I‘m not here to condone Hezbollah. I‘m not here to condone the state—the state of Israel‘s tactics right now. I think what we have to talk about is a negotiated settlement.

We‘re talking about the world at stake right now. Hezbollah has managed to do something that no one thought they could do before. They have united Shia, they‘ve united Sunni, they‘ve united Maronite Christian. The levels of Hezbollah popularity in Lebanon are skyrocketing, because the people of Lebanon are being bombed. It‘s indiscriminate. It‘s civilian. It is not about who we support. It is about what is possible in the world today. What are we—are we willing to see an explosion in the Middle East like we‘ve never seen before?

I think we have to be civilized about this. I don‘t care your political persuasion. I think we care about peace.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14135345/
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
91. Just try to send that to the families whose children are dead in Qana.
What a load of crap.

There may be that kind of feeling among civilians in Israel, but the government has shown itself to be a heartless bastard bent on genocide.

The fact that they love her at Freepville should be a clue, people.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
92. ALERT!!! ALERT!!!! RIGHT WING PROPAGANDA!!!!!!
This was the FIRST link I found on Google under "Brigitte Gabriel":

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/

Look who supports her:

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/aboutus.html



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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Good work Swampy
n/t
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Teamwork
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 08:34 PM by Swamp Rat
:hi:

Edit: I see that Wonk Googled her name too and found her mentioned at Freeptardville.

I alerted the Mods and asked that this thread be locked. Enough people have seen it already.

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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #95
103. Oh no, Keep this crap open!! It exposes their lame, bs propaganda.
This is a great thread! It 's been HIGHLY enlightening.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. OK, maybe that is a better idea...
Just make sure you help me alert everyone about this insidious propaganda.

Did you see who is on her team? R. James Woolsey for one! :eyes:

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6000eliot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
97. Who can't spot this as a load from a mile away?
Funny how this woman's heartfelt testimony sounds just like rw talking points, isn't it?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. See post #92
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
104. This line is curious


Once upon a time, there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell for anyone who would intentionally murder a child


So perhaps people can understand why we get upset when we see the tiny bodies of Lebanese children being pulled from their bombed-out bedrooms.

It is no less chilling to imagine the tiny body of a dead Israeli child.

NO child should be a pawn in this violent game played by grownups who can't get their shit together.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. Olha a #92 - É propaganda!
:hug:

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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. Oh sure, claim all the credit! You apparently didn't read my post #54
Thanks -- sterling organization you're citing.

All their advisory board members are big faves of FOX News and assorted right wing publications such as FrontPage magazine. Nice group -- just the people I'd trust to deliver the straight, unvarnished truth -- NOT

Did it slip your mind that DU is a Democratic/liberal/progressive board? That we don't much truck with right wing sources?


sw
:P
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. LOL! I did say "teamwork" in my next post.
Sorry I missed your post! :hi:
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #117
125. 'S okay. I'm just happy to see you!
Wanna do a little more "teamwork" and help out my thread here? --

Hizballah: A Primer

sw
:loveya:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Done!
Lara Deeb roolz!!! :hug:

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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
106. Her racist views are very progressive
It is amazing how neocon propaganda is acceptable as long as it is under the banner of being "pro-Israel."
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. that's what I have been saying. nt
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. The neocons are smart
They know they have a backdoor channel to spread some of their propaganda among the Left and have been exploiting it.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. The same is true
as well of the right wing "Anti-Israel" stuff that's been posted here. Basically, people will post whatever conforms w/their own point of view.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. See post #92
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Right
Or Post #81, for that matter. I'm aware of this person's views & connections. But I think it's kind of sad how some people will jump on this post for being propaganda & are silent when someone posts anti-Semitic junk. And the opposite holds true as well - many people who would decry anti-Israel propaganda don't raise a peep at this forwarded email. People will angrily cry out at the use of right-wing sources on one issue & then use those same types of sources themselves when it suits their own point of view on an issue. I guess it's the hypocrisy that bothers me.
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. Any anti-Semitic articles, pieces posted here?
If so, direct me to them and I will denounce it. I haven't seen any articles call Jews barbarians and the other things Muslims were called in this article posted here.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. Loads
And yes, calling Jews all this & worse. Most were quickly deleted. But I don't see how people can act shocked, shocked, that there's anti-semitic posts here. How could you miss all of them? I just feel like any bigoted propaganda is wrong - whether that's directed against Jews, Muslims, whatever.
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. What threads?
Sure, I have seen anti-Semitic posts but I haven't seen any anti-Semitic articles being posted. I assume most of them are quickly deleted, rightfully so, however that just lends more credence to my earlier point. This thread has not been deleted. It has over 100 replies. Neocon propaganda is "okay" as long as it is under the guise of being "pro-Israel."
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. Well I've been given the suggestion that it should NOT be locked.
Maybe it should stay open for a while longer so more can see this particular form and source of propaganda.



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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. I'd prefer it to be locked.
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 09:18 PM by Hatalles
Racism and Islamophobia... it just ain't right
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. That was my first reaction when I alerted on the thread.
Only time will tell... :shrug:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #113
120. OK
I believe you about the hypocrisy, etc, but I'm just trying to point out that THIS particular OP is propaganda.

:hi:

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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. It sure is!
:hi:
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #113
121. I'll denounce anti-semitism if I see it
Though usually there are plenty of people to do that, there's no need to jump on the pile. The anti-arab vitriol is generally much more sparsely attacked, from what I've seen.

Still....I'll denounce any racism if I see it...Unless it's against the stinking Dutch. ;)
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AliceWonderland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
119. Ma'am, you do not own the Lebanese experience
And I think your message is vile:

"The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil."

This is unacceptable and rank racism. "The Arabic world"???? WTF?
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GAPeace Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
131. The "only democracy in the Middle East" is dead wrong
What about elections in Palestine and GASP Lebanon?

She's the token "Arab for Israel" that the Right drags out repeatedly here.

She's much like the many Arabs interviewed about Iraq before the war, most of whom supported bombing the hell out of Iraq. It's a deception.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
134. Locking
Inflammatory; from a right wing source.

mvd
DU Moderator
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