Democrats and Muslim extremism. Where should we be?

[Hamlette]

I'm hearing this idea: "only liberals can fix the problem with Islamists". I'm not sure I've got it all but I think it goes something like this:

Liberals rightfully lay claim to the greatest human values: justice, education, progress, compassion, helping the poor, equality, tolerance.

That gives us the moral authority to "wage war" against intolerance and totalitarianism. Remember, FDR had to bring the GOP kicking and screaming into WWII to fight Hitler. Truman worked with Churchhill re: the Iron curtain. The Dems were seen as the party that could protect America then. Now we are not.

Fundamentalist extremism is a real threat to America, the world, our way of life. It is growing and if they win we live under the Taliban.

Liberals should pick up the cause and make it ours. We do that by advocating and LIVING our Democratic values for the US and the world. Not in Iraq to steal its oil but in Africa where poverty is shameful. We pressure the ME to give rights to women and public, secular education to all so as to get those kids out of the madrasses (sp?) We encourage moderate Islam. Closing Gitmo, denouncing torture, being the example we want for the rest of the world. Being a good neighbor by passing Kyoto, spreading our wealth, creating opportunities here and abroad. Only with that kind of respect from the rest of the world can we get broad support to stop totalitarian Islamist groups.

Blair talked about it today here: http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page9948.asp

and it's been the subject of several articles and the book The Good Fight.

What I see instead, is a sort of isolationism here on the left. An attitude of America has done so many awful things in the world we should pull back and stay out of it. I fear that approach because national security IS an issue and I think we can should and MUST steal it from the GOP.

How say you?

[Finder]

1. None of the above...Religious extremism can only be stopped ...

through education. Unfortunately, we can't even deal with our own Christian and other extremists.

[LWolf]

6. Good points. n/t

[ComerPerro]

26. Exactly.

[Hamlette]

30. education you say. Atta was extremely well educated.

As were most of the 9/11 hijackers. How exactly is it that education helped?

I do agree, and said in my OP that we need to educate people but I think that turns a blind eye to the problem. The guy who started this current wave of Islamic fundamentalism was Egypt's minister of education. He was sent to the US to view our educational system so he could copy it there. He came home a complete radical. All he wanted to do is kill us all.

I've had it with understanding. There is no way to negotiate or educate religious nut cases. I'm surprised that the people here who do not see Islamists as a threat see Christianists as a threat. The fundamentalist Christians are not even on the score board yet when compared to the Islamists.

Fundamentalism may bury us all.

[Finder]

33. I see Islamist extremists as dangerous as Christian ones...

but not here in the US. In other countries it may be the other way around.

Atta and a few of the other hijackers were anomalies. Yes, they were educated, yes they gambled and drank alcohol on Abramoff's cruise ship line, yes they hung out in Las Vegas, yes they potentially had connections with Terry Nichols in the Philippines...

I do agree once someone is brainwashed it is useless to try to negotiate or educate. That is why secular education globally is essential.

[marmar]

2. Fundamentalism of all sorts is screwing up the world...

Quite honestly, as someone who lives in the United States of America, fundamentalist Christianity is a much bigger threat to me than Islamic fundamentalism. It's Christian fundies who are effectively lobbying politicians to send us back to the turn of the century, not Islamic fundies.

[cracksquirrel]

3. They're both bad

But one will make you live in a mud hut praying nightly to some guy that got pinned to some popsicle sticks a few millenia ago, and the other will blow you up in a Pizza parlor.
It's like a choice between getting poked in the eye with a sharp stick and getting hit by a bus.

[DocSavage]

39. Really?

Are you that concerned that the baptist down the street is going to MAKE you pray every night in a mud hut. Surly you jest.

I do know that if radical Muslim fundamentalists will take the right to vote and the privilege of driving from women, will kill homosexuals, ban any type of religion other than the muslim religion (that includes of course Buddhism, satanism, hell praying to trees will be a death sentence). And then of course there is the women as property thing, covering up (takes the fun out of going to the beach). And I bet that they want prayer in school and in govt too. And there will be no supreme court to stop it.

But if you think that christian fundamentalist are the same threat, well, I personally disagree with you. I know that the christians down the street may not approve of my lifestyle, but they will not cut my head off over it. They will just pray for me in the quiet of their home and church. I will take the prayers.

[moez]

4. I'll take the "slow death"

offered by the Christian fundies, thanks. The Islamic extremists are actively pushing toward an armed jihad and blowing crap up left and right all over the world....

[Finder]

5. Except for McVeigh, Koresh, Krar, Eric Rudolf, etc....n/t

[moez]

7. Uh....

They all killed in the name of God? Sorry... I must have missed that.

[Finder]

10. Pretty much, yes. n/t

[moez]

12. hmmmm......

:dunce:

[Totally Committed]

11. EXACTLY!

Religious Fundamentalism -- ALL religious fundamentalism -- needs to be eradicated, frankly. I have no problem with religious people, and their beliefs, but there is no God I ever believed in (despite my present doubts...) that would have EVER condoned the hate, the fanaticism, the violence, the suffering being done in His/Her/Its name today. ANd, I believe He/She/It would agree withe me when I say ALL religion should be kept seperate from the laws of a country. Seperation of Church and state is paramount in ending fanaticism in all countries and societies.

If there is a God, He/She/It is CRYING over what is happening right now. I believe that.

TC

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. McVeigh and Rudolph were lone nuts.

I've never heard of Krar, I'm ashamed to say.

Koresh wasn't a lone nut, but his organisation was small, and it didn't initiate violence as such.

American christians who go nuts tend to take the line "Society is evil, let's run away and live in bunkers in the wilderness" much more often than "Society is evil, let's blow people up" compared to Muslims who do so, I think.

[Finder]

25. McVeigh was not a lone nut by any means...

and seriously, there have been more attacks in the US by Christian and Jewish extremist groups than Muslim groups but they are rarely remembered for some reason.

I think they are all equally dangerous.

[Hamlette]

41. McVeigh was an atheist...I say by definition he can't be a fundamentalist

so we might ask, why no, or so few, terrorist attacks in the US and so many in the ME? Is it possible that we have better police here (Krar was caught before he did anything, Koresh was caught...with tragic results not entirely of his own making.)

Extremists of all natures are bad. Fundamentalists might be worse because they think they kill in the name of God. I think it is delusional to say it is not worse in the ME.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

43. How sure are you that McVeigh was an atheist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_mcveigh suggests otherwise. I've never heard it before, and it's the kind of claim that would be all over the internet if there was much behind it.

[Finder]

44. Not true...he was working with Elohim City.(Christian Identity)n/t

[Finder]

45. Krar did not get to set off his cyanide bomb, but...

he was involved in many other operations either by providing false government and diplomatic IDs, arms and chemicals etc..

He was active in New England prior to 9/11.

The author of the "Turner Diaries" William Pierce was given the best birthday present on 9/11. Just another one of those coincidences.

[KingFlorez]

16. What difference does it make?

They both are a threat, just in different ways.

[LWolf]

8. Other: Clean up your own mess/life, before you interfere

with others. When the United States has no religious conflicts or fundamentalist messes to clean up at home, and has solved the problem of peaceful coexistence between all faiths, beliefs, and practices, then we can share our model with the world. Stepping in to "clean up" someone else's extremist mess at this point is rank hypocrisy and hubris.

[Hamlette]

13. what in the WORLD are you talking about???????

We HAVE peaceful coexistence between faiths here. When was the last time a religious organization fired rockets inside the US? Or flew planes into a building anywhere? Yeah, we had a few abortion doctors killed back a spell but to say that is anything like the Islamists is the type of talk from the left that drives me nuts.

I'm talking about a culture within Islam that openly teaches hatred of the US. Then, they arm train themselves to kill us and each other and the jews.

There are NO religions in the US doing that. Sure, we argue and fight over evolution and abortion and gay rights. But saying that is the same thing is so ridiculous as to be hideous.

[KingFlorez]

14. You aren't getting the point

It's not all about violence, it's about religious extremeism. Have you heard of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell? They are constantly saying thing about other religions and even making violent comments.

[Clark2008]

40. And if they keep saying it, violence surely will follow. eom

[LWolf]

22. We have religious extremists here in the U.S..

There have been more than 150 bombings, shootings, and arson attacks on abortion clinics alone in the last decade, since you mention it.

I don't excuse U.S. hatred, extremism, or violence as somehow "not as bad" as some other groups'.

Hatred of those who are in some way "different" from the prevailing culture is not limited to the middle east, and not limited to Muslims. You can find open celebration of hatred on a daily basis right here at DU.

Hatred for GWB. Hatred for the republican party. Hatred for 3rd parties.

You can also find frequent postings about "revolution," "taking it to the streets," etc.. that imply violence.

As far as flying planes into buildings, I think the jury is still out on who exactly "made," "let," or was otherwise involved in that action.

Meanwhile, our political leadership is "blind" to the hate and violence spawned in our own abandoned communities, among our own disenfranchised.
We murder many more of our own every single year than died on 9/11, yet hate from the outside is somehow more hateful than when it comes from within? We have no domestic terrorists? Or we just don't talk about them?

I won't indulge in the hypocrisy of excusing my own nation, or my fellow citizens, for what I condemn others for.

[Finder]

27. Because they are in power at the moment...

or think they are anyway. Do you honestly think there is no xtian terrorism in our country?

One of the big differences is we arrest and prosecute our extremists rather than blowing their neighborhood off the map.

[Hamlette]

29. yes, I honestly believe there is no xtian terrorism in our country

that compares in scope to Muslim terrorism. Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas, Iraq (now, was not there before). 9/11, 3/11, 7/11.

I will not defend intolerant Christianists, but they are on a different level.

[Finder]

34. Then you are either a xian or need to google a bit.n/t

[flaminbats]

36. a different level?

Reno was a real power freak for going after David Koresh! and I guess the IRA doesn't count..after all they're only Catholic! :eyes:

sorry, but every Muslim I've met has condemned terrorism and intolerance. And don't forget how Christians in Serbia found it justified to simply round up Muslim citizens and kill them..men, women, and children!

every religion has its problems and benefits, but one religion doesn't deserve different treatment from our government than another..isn't this why we have the First Amendment? Do you believe our country should be a community for law abiding citizens..regardless of religion? Or are Muslims just another threat to democracy?

[cigsandcoffee]

31. It's not just the US they hate...

I wouldn't like to be a Dane in a crowd of fundamentalist Islamists these days after that cartoon flap that saw people murdered and embassies burned down.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. I Live On A Street With Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

Hispanics, African Americans, and Asians, and we aren't killing each other.

[LWolf]

24. Good.

If you are also not hating others, bashing others, or engaged in any efforts to change others, inside or outside the community, then you are a great model. Let's get 100% of the streets in the U.S., and the people living on them, doing the same.

[Finder]

28. Well there was no problem in Beirut either...

for the 25000 US citizens. They lived or attended school with others of all religions and ethnicities.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. That bird has flown. Or, been drowned in the blood of VN and Iraq.

The good old days when we were, supposedly, the beacon of freedom and liberal democracy (at least we fancied ourselves so), are long over.

We are now seen for what we have been for most of our existence, a rapacious nation of greedy children under a thin veneer of alleged democracy.

[Hamlette]

17. oh dear, so we should do what, whip ourselves?

I didn't do any of that stuff.

I refuse to engage in this type of masochism, primarily because IT GETS US NO WHERE!

Yeah. Admit our mistakes. Recognize the problems facing the world and at least offer some suggested solutions. If all the left has to offer is "we are a horrible country" the GOP will be in control forever.

What W says is true. The terrorists have won. They have convinced the left in this country that we are not worthy of taking part in the debate or shaping our future.

Grab yourselves a whip and go to your room. The rest of us want to find an intelligent way to fight back. I owe it to my son.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. No thanks.

I didn't do it either. And, I'll keep fighting for what I believe in. But, I don't care for the idea of America "leading" the way. It's record of doing so doesn't hold up to even cursory scrutiny.

[Hamlette]

32. I advocate leading by showing...and doing.

We've got to walk the walk first. Not just here but abroad. Wipe out world hunger. Maybe even AIDs. Stop global warming. Give the world something to respect us for. That's how you lead.

But we need to at least contain the religious nut cases coming at us from the ME. I have no problem with killing the likes of people dedicated to killing me so they can subjugate me to their barbaric religious will.

Maybe its because I'm a woman. I don't want no Taliban killing women in the soccor field for wearing nail polish.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. The subjugation of women isn't limited to the Taliban or Muslims.

Nor are they limited to "religious nut cases from the ME".

Very respectable religious people may not kill you for wearing nail-polish, but they have no problem in subjecting them to spousal rape, forced pregnancy, and virtual slavery all over the world. Including the good ol' USofA.

While I respect and share most of your goals, with the exception of killing people, I would much rather support organizations that are actually doing something about the problems you cite. We, (my wife and I), donate regularly to organizations like Oxfam, Planned Parenthood International, the ACLU, Medicins Sans Frontiers, and Amnesty International among others.

We also write letters to "leaders" all over the world, including the USA, for prisoners of concious via Amnesty International.

As an Anarchist I'm not all that fond of "leaders" of any stripe.

[Finder]

37. You are letting your fear overshadow reason...

and have adopted an "us vs them" mentality according to plan. I agree with you regarding the Taliban 100%.

[flaminbats]

19. gasoline is flammable, so why not light a match?

sorry but how do we destroy terrorism..by killing every single Muslim extremist? By showing intolerance for others? How does waging death and destruction against intolerance eliminate terrorism?

In the words of Harry Truman.."war is hell". But I don't think Truman believed we should be the ones to initiate war. North Korea attacked South Korea, but we merely drove them out. The Japanese government attacked us in Pearl Harbor, and we overthrew that dictatorship. Hitler attacked Britain, France, and the USSR..we merely helped them win back their freedom, along with even the Germans and Japanese who lost that war.

But invading Iraq did nothing to reduce terrorism. Terrorism is not a problem to ignore, but the FBI and CIA exist for fighting this type of threat. Extremism is not just another country that can be defeated in war, it is a disease that thrives on war and defeat. Terrorism will not be eliminated as long as fear and hate exist in every single human being, but it can be reduced with courage and time.

If Democrats should be criticized, I agree it should be for not making the case that a weak Republican President failed in his duty of defending our country on 9/11. It should be for not demonstrating that empires destroy themselves, and collapse from the inside out. It should be for allowing taxcuts at a time when national security and the danger posed by terrorism are top issues.

But isolationism is something that Republicans embrace, otherwise Bush wouldn't make reckless and unilateral deployments in the Mideast. If being ruled by the Taliban is really something Americans should fear, then why not become terrorists ourselves? after all isn't that is what Republicans embrace, a war against terror with no end in sight? Peace and security have little to do with what Republicans stand for, otherwise they would have embraced Bill Clinton in the 90's!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. It's bad, but trying to wipe it out will just make it worse.

I think that generally American liberals are too reluctant to condemn fundamentalist Islam (they tend to compare it to fundamentalist Christianity, which, much as I dislike it, isn't even in the same league).

However, it's not really a threat to the US; the people who really suffer as a result of fundamentalist Islam are the ones who have to live under it. The reason to oppose it is for their sake, not for America's. The policy most in America's self-interest would be to ignore it, and to go on buying oil and ignoring human rights abused.

Trying to improve the lives of people who live under Islamic theocracies by military force is like trying to solve a hostage situation by blowing up the building.

Negotiation with the most fundamentalist Muslims is also, I suspect, unlikely to produce good results - their interests are too nearly diametrically opposed to those of Western liberals.

I think the only policy likely to pay dividends - and even those not great ones - is doing as much as possible to prop up and support moderate Islamic governments. Offer economic and political encouragement to become more liberal, tolerant, democratic and prosperous. Increasingly isolate regimes that remain fundamentalist, and hope for internal pressures to produce change.

However, unless America can be seen to be pushing Israel to reach a just settlement with the Palestinians, I don't see much prospect of this achieving much - the claim by fundamentalists that America is the enemy will have too much of a ring of truth to it for peaceful engagement to overcome it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. I agree - "The left should engage to wipe it out" is a dangerous phrase

Look at how much people condemn Ahmadinejad for his phrase that was loosely translated as "wipe Israel off the map". It implies war, and if we say that's what we want to do to Islamic fundamentalism, then it looks like a religious war, declared by us.

Some of what Blair said in his speech looks correct - that a just settlement for Palestine is vital for good relationships with moderate Muslims, both in Western countries and countries with a majority of Muslims. But his speech also tied Saddam and his regime into this fundamentalism, when really his was a secular dictatorship like many with which Western governments continue to cooperate, without many qualms, and so the speech seemed like another attempt at justifying his participation in the invasion of Iraq.

Islamic fundamentalism has gained the strongest footholds in places where there are grievances against the West, such as Iran (although there are different versions of fundamentalism - al Zarqawi considered Shia Muslims to be heretics). You're right that encouraging good, moderate Muslim governments is the way to defuse the support for fundamentalists.

[Swamp Rat]

21. Let's start with fundie x-tians first.

:)

[JCMach1]

38. You are correct... They are by far the bigger threat to American democracy

Dealing with fundamentalists should start at home...