Antisemitism in the US and how it is once again rising

[nadinbrzezinski]

By the way, I decided this response to a private PM might be adequate for some of you. Some of you, the jacket will fit, some of you it will not... but for every action there is a reaction and one will come in November. Oh and I do not expect to post any responses for I expect some responses to accuse me of raising a hornets nest. I have learned over the last two weeks that discussion is not possible... so here is the fast ball, have fun.

As a Jew what does Israel mean to me? The day that they start rounding my people up and killing them, I have a place to go. that is what Israel means to many Jews. that was not an option to my father. And sadly, I fear that will happen in the US sooner rather than later. This is history speaking, not paranoia...

why is it emerging? Canard number one straight for the Elders of Zion.

The Jews control the government (Where is my secret government job by the way) it has morphed into a client state that hardly can be controlled and has worked against US Interest plenty of times, controlling US Policies. Hell, apparently we have neo cons in Israel which shows little understanding of US Politics and Israeli politics...

They are taking Kids and killing them in Passover to drink their wine has morphed into the IDF is purposely killing civilians. I am not saying they are saints, for no military is, but they are doing their best, under the circumstances NOT to get any collateral damage. The reality of modern warfare is that mistakes happen, at times tragic mistakes, and the screams of war crimes are never supported.

Moreover, as much as they sceam, the clear war crimes here (Hiding fighters not wearing uniforms among civilian populations) have yet to be addressed by this crowd, or my favorite, the constant fall of Katyushas since 2000 in Northern Israel.

Of course the part is far more irritating is that as a worker who did this for ten years I know that this is knee jerk reaction by people who in many cases have no clue about procedures. What I said about an investigation on Qanna is a threat to their world view, and incidentally to the rabid defenders of Israel as well.

If the investigators find evidence of military activity in the area up-wards of 72 hours before it was targeted any claim of war crime goes poof... it enters the realm of fog of war and oops. On the other hand, if they find NO evidence... then the process for a war crime starts, and saintly Israel who did no wrong, suddenly is in the wrong. I am no fool, if this is done by the ICRC the ICRS for many years have been somewhat biased against Israel, hence why Maguen David Adom has never been admited... that said over the last five years they have had to admonish the Red Crescent society in palestine for carrying armed fighters (the only reason why it was not worst was they were forced just like El Salvador) and the Lebanese Red Cross for doing similar shit, so they might be a Little less biased. But if people believe there was a crime, lets have an investigation, like any other crime. Somehow that is being pro Israeli, being pro law.

What will be the other consequence of this shit? Well Jews are people too, and they will see this antisemitism from the left and confuse the "love" from the right. How many Jews who have until now worked on Progressive causes and being members of the democratic party switch their party to the GOP? That is coming, and in some districts (I can count with the fingers of my hand) they are that significant that they will turn an election.

Overall the effect will be nill, but these traditional allies of the left, who started the left in the modern US, will have no choice. Me. I am a true independent... but all the work I have done for my fellow Americans, why? I think I'd better just keep my nose clean, and stay out of politics from now on... for soon I will have to leave this country, when they come to get me. Oh and this is not paranoia, but a historical reality... and unlike most american Jews, who are like German Jews in many ways, I can see the beginning of the writing on the wall.

[Name removed]

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[breakaleg]

2. I'll address the Hezbollah mixing in with civilians.

Every time this issue is mentioned it seems that the US expects every other country in the world to fight wars using their standards. Where is it written that people have to wear uniforms when fighting a war?

In Vietnam, the US learned that not everyone fights the way they do, or the way they want them to.

Probably the reason they do this is simply that they are a militia, not an army. They don't have the numbers to put themselves out there to be shot at. So they use submersive methods. They have limited resources and they use what they can.

I'm sure Israel would like it if they all put on uniforms and walked down the middle of the largest street in town, giving Israel a nice large easy target. Is that realistic? They do have a right to defend themselves.

I'm not saying I agree with how they fight. I'm saying I can understand that in the circumstances they are in, how they can arrive at such methods.

Also, I've yet to see any real evidence that they are in fact "hiding" among the population the way Israel describes. So far, when the HRO goes in after Israel has dropped their bombs, there is very little evidence that Hezbollah was there.

[oberliner]

11. Hezbollah's "rights"

"I'm sure Israel would like it if they all put on uniforms and walked down the middle of the largest street in town, giving Israel a nice large easy target. Is that realistic? They do have a right to defend themselves."

No, they don't have a right to defend themselves. They have an obligation to disarm, disband as a militia and turn their weapons in to the Lebanese government whose army, of course, has the right, duty, and responsibilty to defend Lebanon against any agression from any other state.

[ThomCat]

20. Because the Lebanese army does wear uniforms and

march down the street like nice little targets.

So you are basically saying that if a government is unable to defend their people then the people have no right to rise up and defend themselves? Do you hate the second ammendment here in the US? That is exactly the right guaranteed to us by the second ammendment.

Hezbollah was formed as a resistance movement to defend the people of Lebanon against Isreal, and they have every right to do so.

[WinkyDink]

31. Do they want to adhere to the U.N.'s formation of Israel, or not?

"Israel first seized control of southern Lebanon in 1978, following a bloody attack by Palestinian commandos on the Israeli coast."

"Lebanese formed their own militias to fight the occupiers. The most significant was Hezbollah, a radical Islamic group composed mostly of Shi’ite Muslims from the farming villages adjacent to Israeli-held territory. Even Lebanese who did not agree with the militia’s fundamentalist ideology saw them as freedom fighters, trying to liberate their country from a foreign military occupation."

"This fundamentalist movement, which was responsible for the kidnapping of several Americans and other Westerners in the 1980s...."

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20000901ib.html

[ThomCat]

39. I wasn't aware that this was even in dispute.

They were formed during the occupation of Lebanon for the purpose of driving Israel out of Lebanon. Do you have some unknown new information that indicates otherwise?

[oberliner]

67. Yes but they actually did drive Israel out of Lebanon

Why didn't they disarm and let the Lebanese army be the sole military force in Lebanon after that objective had been achieved?

[ThomCat]

71. Because Israel never stopped coming back over the border.

Kidnappings and assassinations continued, and the Lebanese army never stepped in to effectively protect people.

Beyond that, they converted a lot of their activities to charitable ones. The ran schools and hospitals. Not that you will hear them given credit for this by many people here.

[oberliner]

78. It goes on and on, of course.

But I would argue that if Hezbollah had disarmed and disbanded as a militia. Joined the government, committed itself to running schools and hospitals, without having a military component whatsoever.

I think that if they had taken those steps and allowed the Lebanese army to deploy at the border, then hositilities between Lebanon and Israel would have, at the very least, been sharply reduced.

Of course, reasonable people may disagree with that assessment and it's all hypothetical.

[Dorian Gray]

170. They instigated the kidnapping

that led to this whole crisis. Hezbollah is not MERELY defending itself. If it were, then I wouldn't have a problem with them. I'm critical of both Israel and the Lebanese, but Hezbollah is the problem here. Their very existance is about eradicating Israel. They aren't defending the Lebanese people, acting as a militia. They are creating more problems for them. Israel is as well, but at least they are a legitimate government who can be dealt with diplomatically. That is not true of Hezbollah.

[The Stranger]

30. Israel is in their country, and they are not hiding behind civlians, they

are defending their fucking land.

They don't have any obligation to let their land be taken.

Get real.

[breakaleg]

45. "let their land be taken"? It's Israel that's stealing the land here

Let's get real. They are an occupier in the region. They've habitually stolen land from their neighbouring countries and continue to occupy much of it.

Even the UN agrees. Why is it that Israel refused to obey UN resolution after UN resolution?

They are launching an offensive attack after a minor border skirmish.

Honestly, I can understand that people defend Israel for various reasons. But claiming they are protecting their land is not one of them.

[Mandate My Ass]

58. Exactly and they are way outside the 1967 borders

I watched a video clip about the "security fence" they're building which conveniently puts all of the water and much of the fertile land of the West Bank on its side. It's also producing crushing poverty as it encircles entire towns and separates people from their land/livelihoods.

[breakaleg]

70. it's Apartheid. pure and simple. Has the world learned nothing?

[ThomCat]

74. Have you been paying attention?

Israel is the one stealing land. They are the ones doing the attacking, not the defending. Do you allow the Lebanese people the same right to defend themselves?

[Meshuga]

83. Children as human shields...

Look who's hiding behind civilians... How about using children as human shields?

[Scurrilous]

134. Look Who's Hiding Behind Children 2.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. Hmm iinteresting photo

is that peacetime or wartime, and tha is a police vehicle by the by

[Scurrilous]

151. Child Used as Human Shield after Beating

http://www.occupationalhazard.org/article.php?IDD=649

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Yep the oofficers did what they should not have done

happy now? By the way, have charges been filed against those POLICE officers?

I am sure you were not expecting this response either.

that said, Hamas and Hisbollah have been using those human shields as well... but I am willing to be equally critial of both, how bout you?

[Scurrilous]

163. I deplore the use of human shields...

...by anyone. :thumbsup:

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. Good that is the way it should be

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. According tot eh conventions of war

most of you love to quote from, they are using human shields... which is a war crime, no way around it. I wish the charges for this were filed... and if you believe a war crime happened in qanna, as I wrote, let the procedures go on. Start with the Lebanese government and Red Cross, the two state actors designated under international law, filing those charges and let the investigation go on.

[Karmakaze]

192. There is no proof they are using human shields at all!

Even if you claim they are mingling with civilians, that is NOT the definition of using human shields. In fact only the Israelis have been cuaght (and admitted) using human shields in the legal sense which is the act of FORCING a civillian to act as a barrier to enemy fire (hence shield). So for example, when the IDF grabs a young child, beats him, and then makes him walk into a building occupied by enemy fighters before the IDF soldiers in order to protect the soldiers, THAT is a human shield.

If you are saying that simply having military forces in civilian areas is "human shields" then Israel is also guilty of that considering every town/city in Israel is basically a military fort out of sheer necessity. But, that is NOT illegal. There is nothing in the laws of war that says a military unit can not operate from civilian areas.

This is why Israel is trying to claim that Hizbullah is FORCING civilians to remain in southern Lebanon. It is not true, but that is the only way the IDF can claim that Hizbullah are using human shields.

Not only is the IDF not punishing any of their forces who use human shields, they recently filed an appeal stating that the use of human shields is useful for protecting IDF troops and asking for the Israeli supreme court to overturn a ruling banning the practice.

Of course none of this matters to you, because anyone stating such facts is an anti-semite. And not just any old anti-semite but one apparently getting ready to round up the Jews. The bullshit you said about Jews being rounded up in the US is disgusting. If you truly believe that then you have some serious problems.

With that one claim, you went beyond calling critics of Israel anti-semetic to calling the entire US anti-semetic. Such a total load of bullshit I have not seen on DU before.

[Dorian Gray]

166. Exactly, Oberliner...

I have much to criticize both the Israelis and the Lebanese governments for right now. But, when it comes to Hezbollah, there shouldn't be any criticism. The UN has demanded that they disband and allow the Lebanese government and military to take over. They are in violation of international law. They have no rights any longer.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. What part of their "circumstances" forced them to start this fight?

And, for the record, I don't agree with how Israel has been fighting, either. But you paint Hezbollah as hiding among civilians for defensive purposes. Might make sense, except they were the primary aggressor. Why?

[ThomCat]

22. There was no primary agressor.

Israel has been crossing the border kidnapping and assassinating people. They have not respected the Lebanese border. So Hezbollah's action could clearly be retaliation for Israeli actions. Both sides insist that the other side started it.

The only solution is for Israel to get out of Lebanon, leave Lebanon alone, and negotiate a real peace.

[breakaleg]

48. Primary agressor? Have you seen any of the coverage?

Israel invaded Lebanon! They have flattened much of the country.

Israel chose to over-react to this situation. Hezbollah IS defending themselves and Lebanon.

I'm sure if someone invaded your country, you would do the same.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Conveniently forgetting all the katyusha strikes since

2000... neither side is innocent or lacks any blood in this one.

[itzamirakul]

114. You give in on 1% and expect 99% support in return...

You want Qana to be investigated. By whom? Israel doesn't recognize any courts except its own. That's why Israel's surrogates here in the U.S. have worked so hard to eliminate the UN totally.

How many resolutions have been passed against Israel for crimes committed only to have Israel totally ignore them?

I can't help but notice how all of the apologists on DU manage to skirt around the issue of apartheid and the fact that they are defending racism and segregation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. ICRC by the way, why hasn't the charge of war crime

been plastered across Arab Media? Massacre, yes, war crime no...

That said I am not an apologist and if you did a search of posts you would realizes I am far more critical of Israel (In a rational no knee jerk reaction way) than you'd be willing to admit. Yes... I am a self hating jew... to use another canard from antisemitic people all across the world.

What I also said, is that just because you call something a war crime, it is not necessary so... that is why an International body has to be involved... but have it your way.

I am sure you are right, I am wrong and I should eat a gun.. with every other fucking jew around the world. That way all the worlds problems will be over... another canard gleefully stated and tolerated in antisemitic circles... and yes you are right it is all of Israel's fault, and the Hisbollah has no guilt in this... your right, you know what, maybe you are right and the IDF should just launch samsom... and get it over with.


On the bright side, the global warming problem would have a temporary solution.

[itzamirakul]

177. Nadine...get a clue...No, you should not eat a gun and neither

should "every other fcuking jew around the world." (Your words, in case any one wonders). At least not for me. That's silly and you know it.

I feel your frustration but it seems to be coming from the fact that people won't agree with you on the points that you try to make. Some of us just don't see it your way on this particular crisis.

I have not searched out all of your posts because I have a life and I don't want to spend what's left of it becoming an authority on Nadine's posts.

At least you gave in 1% and even THAT makes you feel guilty and call yourself "a self-hating Jew." The problem is with the folks who won't admit error even if they say it is 10% Israel's fault and 90% Hezbollah's fault. The Israelis and their supporters won't admit one iota of wrong doing and that is infuriating.

To me, giving in 1% on Israel's part is promising to stop the fighting for 48 hours and then continuing to fight. I would rather a person just tell me "NO!" instead of lying like that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. this general thread has to do with the rise of antisemitism

in the US... it is here, it is here to stay and some do believe (Gibson just voiced what many feel) taht all the worlds problems have one origin, Isreal, which can also be translated to all the world's jews... that IS THE POINT OF THIS FUCKING THREAD...

[itzamirakul]

211. OK then...if that's how you see it....nt

[Vanje]

213. Point wasted

I dont think Mel Gibson is a DU participant.

I havnt read one DU post agreeing with the opinions Mel Gibson voiced.

[Vanje]

205. I have never seen such horrible sentiments expressed on DU

I have never seen such HORRIBLE sentiments expressed on DU except for your posts.
Are you doing it for drama?
Martyrdom? Are you trying to get censored by the mods?
Do you have a screaming need for a lot of attention?
Are you tryin to suggest that these sentiments are common here?
I have NEVER seen this kind of hateful antisemetic bile spewed at DU except for in your posts.




You said:
Yes... I am a self hating jew...
Then you said:
......I should eat a gun.. with every other fucking jew around the world. That way all the worlds problems will be over... another canard gleefully stated and tolerated in antisemitic circles... and yes you are right it is all of Israel's fault........

[nadinbrzezinski]

208. What I eprssed is exactly

what you can find in antisemitic literature and what I am feelign right under the surface here... developep over the last two weeks, like a virus... So I just expresed what is under the surface.

[Junkdrawer]

3. So "IDF is purposely killing civilians." = antisematism?

Pretty broad brush.

[Vinnie From Indy]

4. I really didn't understand you original post

Can you distill it down? Are saying that anyone that disagrees with Israel's military action in Lebanon is anti-semitic?

[ThomCat]

10. That seems to be her consistent message, yes.

Never mind that there are Jewish people on both sides. She refuses to comment upon or even acknowledge the continual brutal stuff Israel has been doing for years that would instigate retalitory strikes.

[LostinVA]

21. Yeah, basically

Read her posts from yesterday... same thing.

[Cronus Protagonist]

204. You're not alone. It's incoherent. to me.

I'm not sure if it's a language issue or what, but it makes no sense at all to me. For me, the point, if there is one, is unclear to the extent of being invisible.

[Name removed]

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[Xeric]

6. I tire of this line of "reasoning"

Once again we see the attempt here to paint all those who question Israeli policy with regards to their attacks on Lebanon as anti-Semites. This poster even raises the specter of an anti-Semitic left rising to some imagined final solution. Further the author attempts to suggest that we in the democratic left should be intimidated into silence lest we lose the next election due to loss of Jewish votes.
As a Jewish American, I find this fear mongering contemptible.
I do not support collective punishment and the bellicose foreign policy of the Likudniks and their allies in Isreal. It has brought no good to Israel or the world as a whole. The fact that the present Israeli leadership refuses all negotiation is a sign that their policies are morally bankrupt. The apologists for these policies in this country should realize that their increasing shrillness does not help their cause.

[EFerrari]

7. Every form of bigotry is again on the rise in the US.

I understand why you are upset but not why you seem surprised.

The same group that got put on ignore during the immigration threads seem to turn up in these threads relating to the Lebanon action. And, I believe it will get worse before it gets better.

It's not DU, nadin. It's the culture and it's ugly.

[ugarte]

13. Well said y de acuerdo...

I have been attacked from both sides here at DU during the Israeli-Lebanon debate, and there is nastiness coming from both ends of the spectrum.

[Swamp Rat]

29. Yo también n/t

[AliceWonderland]

16. As a Lebanese Canadian immigrant to the US, I agree, thank you.

Hate, xenophobia and bigotry are on the rise in the US. That's tragic but not unexpected, really. I see a lot of things online and in the media that break my heart and make me think that Arabs truly are seen as inferior, subhuman raghead beasts. But I deal, and appreciate the enlightened folks, and stand by my belief in human rights and international humanitarian law for all peoples, equally and irrevocably.

[EFerrari]

26. The Republicans use it as an organizing principle and they

have now had many years to fan the hatred. And it becomes airborn. I just heard one of my friends say something very unfortunate on the air. If I pointed it out to him, he'd be astonished.

:(

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Yes and they need to be called on it

and there will be consequences, we both know it, political consequences.

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Why I feel no longer welcome the shit will go on

until they are called on it... and then underground but it will go on and we both know it

[Name removed]

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[EFerrari]

119. I don't even know what to say. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

125. You know that I have not taken sides in this issue.

I have only called for peace and an end to racism.

Yet I am subject to passive-aggressive attacks based on fabrications of the lowest order.

This does not bode well for the DU community.

:hug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. That is why I called people on it (Using amtisemitism)

it does not bode well for this community, and it does not bode well for the country.

[EFerrari]

140. People are screaming at each other, screaming awful things.

Hope it calms down soon.

:hug:

[Name removed]

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[k_jerome]

8. you are not alone my friend....

these things will not be allowed to be repeated.

[Name removed]

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[k_jerome]

19. sure thats what you meant. nt.

[Name removed]

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[k_jerome]

42. you certainly appear to be ready. good luck. nt.

[LostinVA]

23. Good point, Thom n/t

[ThomCat]

41. Thank you.

I'm sick and tired of the most reactionary, militant assholes insisting that only they understand Jewish history, as if it only happened to their family.

[LostinVA]

63. I know...

[treestar]

34. Amen to that. And it meant never against should anyone be a

perpetrator of such a thing, with not exception for Israel.

[EFerrari]

44. Thank you. n/t

[ugarte]

9. Much of what you say I agree with

particularly the political ramifications of progressives attacking Israel, but I hope to God you are exaggerating the threat of a second holocaust, USA-style. African Americans, gays, even Hispanics, could make an equal case that they would be targeted in this country before the Jews. I agree we are living in a country that is palpably becoming Fascist--hence, we must all stand together to fight bigotry.

[QuestionAll...]

62. and women, don't forget about us women. African Am, Hispanic, gay... nt

[catbert836]

14. Although I see what you are saying...

You seem to be giving voice to the old canard that those who do not support Israel's policies are anti-Semitic, which is just as false as saying the Jews use Christian children's blood to make matzoh balls. I hope this was not your intent.

[pennylane100]

15. Your notion of Israel as a refugee for Jews is quite telling.

You state that it is a place to go when they start rounding up your people and that your father never had such a place. However as I understand it, and I am no historian, many people who survived the terrible Holocaust did to Israel after the war and founded their own country. Unfortunately, there were other people living there, and now fifty odd years later, they are still slaughtering each other over this land.

Until this is put right, there will never be peace. Please do no accuse me of any bias, I don't know who "Has God/Allah on their side", I just know that many thousands more will die if the two sides do not sit down and talk peace.

[catbert836]

27. If God's on our side

he'll stop the next war- Bob Dylan

[Jersey Devil]

18. Why is criticizing Israel over Lebanon different than criticizing the US

over Iraq?

Much of the angst I hear at this site over "anti-semitism" is directed at anyone who believes the war being conducted now by Israel is wrong and should be stopped.

It reminds me of the rhetoric by the Bush Administration and its supporters that anyone who criticizes the US over Iraq is unpatriotic and hates America.

Show me where the difference is.

I am against both wars and I am neither an anti-semite nor unpatriotic.

[Hardrada]

32. Good point!

Hard to see much difference.

[LostinVA]

64. There isn't any n/y

[fooj]

160. Exactly. Wrong is wrong. Bottom line.

[treestar]

24. Why shouldn't everybody have a place to go in case the group

they belong to gets rounded up? Genocide is wrong against any group.

And Israel is not that safe a place to go. "Surrounded by enemies" and all that.

You are safer in the US than anywhere. You should be working to preserve the US and its Constitution (from those who would undo it, like the current Administration) if being safe from genocide is your concern. Much more effective.

[pennylane100]

33. I could not agree more,

I think eveybody's freedom is threatened under this administration.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. I'll Play

As a human being I would die to provide safe haven to any group that was persecuted, especially one that was persecuted since time immemorial and was almost totally eliminated.

Like Jesus said " Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. I have and that work has been in vain

truly.... and that is the way I right now feel.

As to the canards I raised them for they are there palpably and easy to see for any educated eye.

Anyhow, will find a new home away from here, for the noxious environment of just under the water's edge. Aparenely... asking for a court of law to investigate what may or may not be a war crime is pro israeli. Also apparently standing for justice is pro israeli... and of course pointing out that what may be apparent to some, might not be the case (those of us who have gone to war realize this little thing called fog of war is real), is being pro Israeli. What is worst, asking for reason to rule over knee jerk reactions is being pro israeli. Hell, if I were a swiss citizen (one requirement of the ICRC) and if I were a member of the ICRC I would be asking for that examination of the charges... knowing full well that it will take months, if not out right years... but what would I know about this? Only did interviews of war crime victims from another conflict, and had to see their pain as they related stories of rape, collective punishment, et al, while I sat across them.

As I said, there will be consequences. Me... I am now an independent, never again to call myself a progressive, not as long as progressives harbor antisemitic views among'st them, since they confuse their hate of George Bush with everything else. Is this every progressive? Hardly, but either they are confronted or you will loose, as a group, many hands and many voices. I will now truly work as an outsider to the system, thanks for driving me away with the tolerated antisemitism. I have done things that may seem very progressive, and I am proud of them. After all this arab hating Jew, has sent amicus briefs to the USSC regarding Guantanamo Detainees demanding Geneva Protections on these folks, after all according to some, the fact I am willing to hold off judgment, makes me an arab hater. And yes, this is what has been exposed, and yes the classic canards are there... and yes... my passport is in order, and I am ready to flee on a moments notice... for I see it coming. And as a Mexican Jew, I have two things now that will allow the racist all over to burn me, string me up or do other things.

I am also a member of the Southern Poverty Law Center, why? I hate racists of all stripes... even those who wear the label progressive.

Oh and the classic canard, well you will label me antisemitic if I criticize Israel, is another one canard out of the Protocols. (Blame the one who had read them repeteadly from cover to cover) I have been and I am very critical of Israel. Israel is no saint in this. I have repeatedly said that both sides have blood in their hands... apparently I am pro israeli for saying that both sides have blood in their hands. I have also said that Israel tried (the wrong way) to break the cycle... 20\20 hindsight is a marvelous thing... but they did... and the events of the last two weeks, will make it very hard for the doves in Israel to convince the hawks to give up land for peace... that is a reality... yep I am pro Israel for recognizing the reality on the ground. By the way, since I am also critical of Israel when need be, I am also anti semite by the logic by some folks, and a self hating Jew... This is the message I have gotten from DU... and why this is, for all intents and purposes a lesson to this historian of how antisemitism, the old virus, rises its ugly head once again. I know I will never fully feel part of this country again... never mind I have done more for this country than many of those who scream... as well as humanity.

The lesson, if there is one to be had, is the same one my father told me once. Have your passport ready, as well as plenty of cash for the necessary bribes to get the hell out of dodge....

Passport.... check
Money .......Check

And be ready to start life somewhere else wtih nothing more than the shirt on your back

Shirt on back..... check.

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

150. Ah the next cannard rises it's ugly head

No I am not drinking, and if you cannot make head or tails out of it, I am so sorry.

Perchance you may want to google the terms blood libel

Also google the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

And in general any good history of antisemitism over the last 2000 years. Father Finigan's history is pretty good by the way... oh sorry, he is a jew lover so there must be a problem with him.

Or you may want to go down and find your answers.

passport, check
money, check
shirt on back, check

[Vinnie From Indy]

169. Sorry, I am still not getting it.

What are you trying to say? Can you put it one sentence?



Can you tell me if you believe opposing Israel's military incursion would make one an anti-semite?

The above question could be answered quite easily should you choose to do so.

Also, don't forget to pack good socks. Never abuse your feet!!!

[EFerrari]

197. I think a problem that people are having in general in trying

to talk about this situation (whatever one thinks it is) is: they have no way to do it. And, it's possible that some larger, even societal inability is mirrored on this thread.

Because many of the posters who are not copying you truly don't seem to understand your point about how old carnards update. I'm not speaking now of the posters who simply disagree with your position, but of the posters who would like to understand and don't. Maybe one has to have a literary bent (literary not meaning fictional or untrue, right?) to read the language and clarify it in the way you have. In truth, until you did, I didn't make those connections at all myself. I just don't think bombs will help and fear they will make everything much worse for everyone.

So, there is that problem.

On the other hand, or maybe on the next finger, there is the problem of the sloppy slipping categories. "You" "Israel" "they" and so on. Those are also unhelpful.

Then, how does one talk about a military operation that does in fact target civilians areas or, even about a highly successful lobby without seeming to buy into to the bigotry that is everywhere being loosed in the culture? And I ask this as a DUer who has been asked if I have "papers" much as you'd ask if your dog is registered with the AKC.

I'm not saying this is only a problem of semantics at all. And maybe the vacuum (where language should) be is instructive in some way, might tell us where we are in the way of understanding the problem on our hands, let alone, approaching it with a plan. Not very far.

I don't know if this makes sense. And mostly feel dread when I see extreme language tossed around DU or anywhere so casually. It's like watching something I love degraded before my eyes. That's what this board's discussion has felt like, anyway.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cgrindley]

38. What?

Since when is anti-semitism a non-issue? This week of all weeks should tell you that anti-semitism is alive and well in the world.

[LostinVA]

50. When the hell did I ever say antisemitism is a non-issue???

I never said that.

Why "this week of all weeks"?

on edit: on Ignore.

[cgrindley]

68. When you called him paranoid and nonsensical, that's when

He pointed out the evils of anti-semitism. You called him paranoid and nonsensical. You mused that he must be on drugs.

GO AHEAD, put me on ignore. It's a great way to avoid being accountable for the stupid things you write.

[bluethruandthru]

69. Maybe because of Mel Gibson....

You know, since he made a drunken anti-semitic remark...anti-semitism must be on the rise! :rofl:

[DistressedAmerican]

28. Reserving judgement for the investigation?

"...but they are doing their best, under the circumstances NOT to get any collateral damage."

No pre-concieved bias there.

[marmar]

35. I agree with you that bigotry of all types is rising in America...

but this constant equation of being against the Israeli government's actions in this case to anti-Semitism doesn't work.
I'm an African American, and if my fellow DUers criticize Condi Rice for being an incompetent bullshit artist, I'm right there with them.
I can't speak for you, but as a member of any minority that's suffered oppression, it's very easy to get into a "circle the wagons" mentality where the defense of a member of the tribe trumps everything else. I remember during the OJ Simpson trial, I felt this - and I know quite a few friends who immediately went into attack-on-OJ-is-an-attack-on-Black America mode - but I stepped away from it, looked at it objectively, and came to the conclusion that he was guilty.
It's very tough sometimes to think beyond "tribe" and that's sad. That's one reason the world is in the state it's in today.

[cgrindley]

40. You're preaching to the choir

So to speak.

Lots and lots of us here at DU are aware of the anti-semitism that's been floating around the US lately. And we're aware that anti-semitism is an issue that periodically rises and falls in intensity and that it never truly goes away for good. Many of us, though, are trying to do the best we can to counter it whenever we see it, and if there are people out there who think that the situation is being exaggerated, it isn't. I've seen lots of anti-semitism in NYC for example in the last couple of years and I think it's only going to get worse.

[itzamirakul]

165. That's just the point...To be able to separate anti-semitism from

justified criticism. To criticise OJ or Michael Jackson should not be taken to mean that the critic is anti-African American. Nor should it be taken to mean that all blacks are wife killers or child molesters. Those who support OJ or MJ should not accuse critics of being racists. But...shit happens...

I can say over and over again that I do not hate Jews but that I strongly disagree with Israel's current actions and that does not stop the supporters from going wild because everyone does not see the situation from their viewpoint. Nor does that stop them from believing erroneously that I am anti-semitic.

Some of the people who are dearest to my heart, who have done some of the most wonderful things for me, and with me, who have been my associates, my friends, are Jewish Americans. I live next door to a brand new immigrant from Israel and we have become good neighbors. And yet, if I feel Israel is wrong in this war, I do not hate my friends and neighbors because of it. How stupid to try to search out hatred that is not there and blame the other for anti-semitism all the time as some do on this board. Israel and its avid supporters need to learn how to accept some of the blame some of the time. That would help us all solve these problems.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

46. Thank you for illustrating the civility we should all aspire to. n/t

[marmar]

47. "Your overwhelming hatred for Israel "

No offense, but that statement is melodramatic and very false. Go line by line through this thread and I don't think you'll find hatred for Israel. THIS REPLY is disgraceful.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

57. PUT YOURSELF IN HER SHOES! If YOUR dad was gassed by Hitler,

how the FUCK would YOU feel about the Holocaust and the current anti-semitism in this world? THAT is her fucking point! Did you even bother to read her post?

[H2O Man]

54. Important point.

There are going to be widely differing opinions on the violence in the Middle East. I do not agree with a number of things that the DUers that I consider my friends say, regarding both Israel and Lebanon. We can benefit from discussions on those differences. And an important part should be compassion.

[Skidmore]

49. Cybertroops.

[LostinVA]

55. Bingo n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Really? From the protocols once again

where is my fucking secret gov'ment job?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Again where is my damn secret gov'ment job?

Whether Israel is doing it or not is not my problem... but they are not paying me or sending talking points either. Put me on ignore, as is After this thread I doubt I will ever come back to a place that TOLERATES just under the surface antisemism and other forms of 'isms

[Codeine]

97. Except Nadin's been here for a long fucking time.

I'm really sick of anybody who holds a minority opinion on this board being accused of being a shill, a cybertroop, or a closet Freeper. There's no "party line" here, people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. But not for much longer and this is but one of the reasons

I am truly sickened to my stomach of this toleration of antisemitism and other forms of 'isms. Antisemitism is just the one du jour today... and it is the usual suspects that never get called on it.

[Xeric]

113. Yet it's ok to call people anti-Semites

Simply for not supporting Israel's foreign policy?

[Codeine]

133. That's against the rules as well.

But oftimes it seems to be more than just a dislike of Israeli policy, if you know what I mean.

[Xeric]

145. No I don't know what you mean

Perhaps you can read people,s minds. Perhaps that is what you wish to hear in order to justify your position.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. Wny don't you RE READ the post

carefully, then google blood libel and protocols of the elders of zion? I said there was a pattern emerging, one that I can taste and see... one that has emerged under the cover of Israel is doing all the horrors... so go ahead, re-read it.... try to understand it... if you can't that is ok. If the coat does not fit, for it does with some folks, some who are also very popular, that is ok as well. But over the last two weeks I have seen this place transform itself into something I never expected. By the way, leave Isreal out for it is only the excuse...

Oh and on a more general term is affecting the left in general

[Xeric]

171. Your hyperbole is becoming extreme

I have not seen one post even suggesting the author believed the protocol nonsense or similar anti-Semitic propaganda. It would seem on the other hand that those yelling anti-Semite the loudest are attempting to deflect criticism of Israeli policy for whatever reason.
As a Jewish American, I do not sense the anti-Semitism you claim to be so able to ferret out. I see no "pattern emerging". I do see people concerned for the people of Lebanon as well as the people of Israel and concerned that peace in that area will never be known to another generation due to the heavy handed policies of the PNAC neo-con crowd. I do see people angry about the unacceptable targeting of civilian areas and the unwillingness of the current Israeli government to negotiate a meaningful peace and it's obvious contempt for world opinion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. Is it?

by the way my dear many German Jews felt secure well after Kristal Nacht... they ended up as ashes at places like Treblynka.

By the way, my post has actually very little to do with Israel but a trend in the US... blame that on my training in History, including coursework in Antisemitism and a graduate degree in history.

[Xeric]

180. your paranoia is unbecoming

We are hardly in anywhere near a situation like pre-war Germany. That is patently absurd. Again, your hyperbole seems more about deflecting rational criticisms about Israeli policy than it does with making any point about racism in America or anywhere else.
And this seems to be a continuing theme with those apologists for those justifying Israeli war policy. One such person suggested that all of Europe were still rabid anti-Semites. Another suggested that (due to Mel's idiotic comments) ALL Austrailians were anti-Semites. I'm happy to see that the moderators pulled these comments. I think they should do the same with other comments suggesting that DU is a hotbed of anti-Semitism. Not only is it slanderously untrue, it stops real discussion of the issues dead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

187. Yiou are right we are not

but easily we can get there, it is not paranoia, but historical imperative

You choose to see paranoia, fine... I choose to see history.

[Xeric]

201. I choose to see the future

One that is not a repeat of the past.
If you wish to believe that nothing has changed or that nothing can change, than you are not only a student of history, you are trapped in it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

210. No I am a student of history

Bergen Belsen has been replaced by Guantamo...

Those who refuse to learn from history, and Americans refuse this on a regular basis, are concemneed to repeat it.

Yes there is an utopia out there, but that is why it is called an utopia

[Karmakaze]

203. Ever heard of Hasbara?

Look it up.

[High Plains]

51. What a crock.

Any criticism of Israel is just a subtler form of anti-semitism. That's bullshit.

[High Plains]

53. Tell me, just where are those Nazis coming to round you up?

It's not a long distance from valid historical concerns to paranoid fantasies.

[LostinVA]

56. Be careful -- I said that upthread and was accused

Of saying antisemitism isn't important/doesn't exist.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

59. This thread was not started for discourse

The OP even says that in his/her post. They refuse to answer any replies.

So.... why was this thread started, boys and girls?

[k_jerome]

60. all threads are started at your pleasure. nt.

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. LOL.

:rofl:

[High Plains]

65. Original Poster drops a giant turd into GD.

Thanks for nothing.

[Minstrel Boy]

75. About the IDF targeting civilians, the reasoning goes like this:

Why of course the IDF is not targeting civilians, because there are no civilians left in southern Lebanon.

According to Israel's minister of Justice, last week:

He said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

And the Yesha Rabbinical Council chimes in:

The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."

All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3283720,00.html

If you can justify this, or even if you can't see it, you're no better than a Jihadist.

Stop hiding behind the Protocols, and love justice, for God's sake.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. I will not defend the rabbinical council

that said, are they speaking for the State? No... are they speaking for the IDF, NO... Does Oral Roberts or Jerry Falwell speak for the Department of Defense?

As to civilians in the south, I will not defend them, don't ask for that... but they are not targeting civies on purpose. According to the conventions everybody loves to quote but hardly understand (nor are they moral by the way, for there is NO morality in war), if you place any weapon among civies, those civies become collateral damage to your valid military target... that reality is there whether this is Kansas, Iraq, El Salvador or Southern Lebanon...

This is war... the true face of war... and if you cannot take that reality, change the channel to HBO where they will show I don't the guns of Bavarrone where only the bad guys buy it.

If you are going to charge somebody with war crimes, file the charges with the ICRC... I can tell you right now that since you are NOT on the ground, they will file them in the shreder... but I am sure the Lebanese Government would be issuing these charges if they themselves believed they could be backed up. But what would I know about procedure, having done this for years? Absolutely nothing, you are right... have you noticed, and I have, that nobody, except on boards has called any of this a war crime? I include Al Jazeera in this by the way... care to tell me why? Thought so.

[LostinVA]

84. What a truly frigging horrifying post n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Why because I pointed to facts that you don't want to see

The authority to file charges of war crimes is the Lebanese government, and the Lebanese Red Cross...

Or that war is hell?

What you are seeing is the face of war... the same face you have not been allowed to see by our lovely networks out of Iraq... but that is war.

Sorry for telling you that war is not what hollywood shows you... been there, done that, and heard plenty of stories from actual, honest to goodness, breathing and hurting war crime victims... the real article... does that mean it is horrible? War is horrible my dear.

[Minstrel Boy]

89. "war is hell"

How sad for you, that you need to say that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. I guess General Sherman was delusional too

when he said that too... have you ever been there? Your answer tells me no.

[Minstrel Boy]

93. I affirm that war is hell, I'm just appalled

that you would use that as an excuse for waging it indiscriminately.

Or perhaps you think General Smedley Butler was delusional when he wrote "War is a Racket." Because I think you've been suckered.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Sorry to tell you this but this is not indiscriminate

we have not seen indiscriminate warfare since 1945... truly stick to hollywood.

By the by, if this was indisrimate you think we would have bloggers out of beirut posting on the world wide web? Not likely

[Minstrel Boy]

99. Please justify a civilian kill ratio of 7 to 10, nearlyhalf of those

children.

Please, before I return to my Guns of Navarone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. You are asking to justify, morally an act of war

that has no instrinsic morality. That is one of the lesson you learn in real war, and dealing with real victims of war. that is why war is hell...

So I will not play your morality game for there is no morality in war. That is your first lesson... and why war is hell

Your second lesson is that young people die and there is nothing I can do to change that... and that is why war is hell

the third lesson is that yes, civilian die, and again there is precious little I can do to change that reality, and that is why war is hell

The fourth lesson is that we have humanitarian law, which is not moral, or has anything close to morality attached to it, meant to help reduce the horrors. It has succeeded, partially but not completely and will never succeed completely.

Now the fifth lesson is that you increase your civilian casualties, I don't care where, when you use human shields... which are contemplated in the conventions many of you love to quote but hardly understand. And that is why war is hell

Go back and stick to Hollywood. Stay off the news channel.

And your final lesson of the day is that once you enter war time conditions... there are some acts that are so far out that they horrify the pale of humanity. Among them... the Holocaust all 13 million victims, notice I did not say six, just 13... Serbia in the 1990s, and of course forgotten Darfur. I will add to this some of the mass killings in Guatemala in the 1980s, as well as the death squads in central america (El Salvador and Nicaragua chiefly) in the 1980s, which incidentally were investigated as war crimes, but somehow that investigation has been stalled over the last two decades... you should ask yourself why... but after that... as long as you follow the rules more or less, yes shit happens and you cannot expect morality to enter into the equation. That is the true face and horror of war.

But what would I know, since I danced that dance...

[EFerrari]

123. The Lebanese government seems to be doing just that:

Lebanon minister to sue Israel

BEIRUT, Lebanon, Aug. 1 (UPI) -- Lebanon has refused to participate in cease-fire negotiations with Israel as the country's minister of Justice said he intends to sue Israel in The Hague.

Minister of Justice Charles Rizk said in a letter to Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora that "the repeated Israeli attacks on Lebanon, on its infrastructure, its citizens, women and children, since July 12 are a grave breech of international law and international agreements. As such, they clearly constitute war crimes and crimes against humanity," Ynetnews.com reported Tuesday.

He requested permission to file proceedings against Israel in the International Criminal Court.

Meanwhile, Hezbollah officials balked at U.S. calls for a cease-fire in Lebanon, one day into the Israeli air force's 48-hour moratorium on airstrikes, Arutz Sheva reported.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060801-092736-2663r

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. So now we will see (in five months at the earliest)

upwards of three years... just how much of a war crime actually occcured.

Having danced that dance... should be interesting to watch. I am sure Israel will bring forth all the Katyusah strikes taht are ALSO a violation of international protocols...

This will be interesting to watch... my prediction... in the end both sides will get slapped... but nothing serious will come out of it... why? Both have done things that are a breach.

[EFerrari]

137. Yep. And I can't wait until things are interesting and not deadly.

No winners in this one.

[Karmakaze]

207. The rabbinical council might not be - but the minister of justice?

He sure is.

[porphyrian]

77. I think responses to this thread are very telling about those responding.

But, then, I enjoy pushing buttons to see what they do.

[norml]

79. Anti-Semite (By Jeanette Pontacq, Don Deane Publisher)

Anti-Semite
By Jeanette Pontacq, Don Deane Publisher


Have you ever been called an anti-semite, or heard a good friend labeled as such? I have, recently, because I have a column in the Coastal Post. The slur was thrown at me, and at the owner of the paper, because a long-standing CP writer consistently criticizes Israeli policies and treatment of the Palestinian people within the Occupation.
Unfortunately, such labels are too often casually, but deliberately, attached to anyone, gentile or Jew, contesting the present U.S. public policy of total and unquestioning support for whatever Israel's government wants or does. Even here in bucolic West Marin, too many automatically equate a desire for honest information and debate on the Israeli-Palestinian issue as a sign of anti-semitism - rather than a rational need now missing in making good public policy.

This label of anti-semitism is a powerful weapon, used unsparingly to attempt to stop those who either criticize Israel's actions or argue that pro-Israel groups have significant influence over US Middle East policies. In other words, criticize Israeli policies and you are, by definition, an anti-semite. The end result is that real debate is stifled on this issue, both within the halls of government and even, potentially, in West Marin.

This virulent weapon is a tactic taught and used by the "Israeli Lobby." The Lobby (as described by Professors Mearsheimer and Walt, March 2006) "is shorthand for the loose coalition of individuals and organizations who actively work to steer US foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction. This is not meant to suggest that the Lobby is a unified movement with a central leadership, or that individuals within it do not disagree on certain issues. Of course, the majority of Jewish Americans are not part of the Lobby."

The majority of Jewish Americans do not even agree with this far-right strategy. The Lobby exists and acts swiftly and surely to kill public debate or any attempt by government or media at even-handedness on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. It has been wildly successful.


snip


http://www.coastalpost.com/06/08/20a_.html


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1800570

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. How Do I Put This Delicately.

I can certainly feel the OP's pain. My mom is Italian. My dad was Jewish. I look more "Mediterranean" than anything if one can really look "anything".

Therefore since people don't know I'm Jewish this is what have I heard in my lifetime and by whom:

-"Hitler should have finished the job" (from a Maronite Christian from Lebanon who was in college with me)

-"X is a professional Jew" (A professor in grad school said this about a pro-Israel student.)

-"Called American University (AU) AJew" and lamented how all the JAPS-Jewish American Princesses were driven to school in their limos. (Again from a professor in grad school)

-Called the New Republic the Jew Republic (Again from a professor in grad school)

-Had a boss refer to someone who she had a bad business dealing with as a "dirty Jew" (her husband is Jewish and she knew my background but anti-semitism is never far from the surface)

I'm reminded what Malcom said about being black in America... What do you call a black man with a PHD when he leaves the room ? A n----r. No matter how assimilated Jews are in this country or any country there are still anti-semites who see them as the other.


America has been good to the Jews but it hasn't been so good that they can let their guard down.


Could "it" happen again? It's unthinkable but it was also unthinkable the first time.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Read the damn post and them come back

to me ok... if you can't put me on ignore ok

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

110. I missed nothing. You seem to be trying to compare

lack of support for Israel to Nazi Germany, by even mentioning the idea of "rounding people up".

And then you seem to threaten us, by saying if we don't support Israel, then Jewish people will go to conservatives.

Its bullshit.

Those people who would be turned because of the left's lack of support for Israel would turn anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Oh you missed the post completely,

let me clarify for you... I said that many of the old canards of classic antisemitism have morphed themselves and taken new forms... such as they are purposely killing civilians (never mnd human shield use) the original form of this one, which precedes the Nazis by about 1000 years, if not longer, is blood libel... where Jews took children allegedly during passover and killed them, using the blood for satanic rites. Go ahead, do a google search of blood libel.

The second big canard comes straight from the protocols of the elders of zion, which precede the Nazis by about 50 years, and was taken from an English comedy of mid 19th century england. This canard is that Jews control governments... this is a classic of the protocols and now it has morphed into a client state controlling US policy. We have seen this one take shape over the last five years...

Again you missed the points of the post

I also stated, which is true, that screams of war cimes does not a war crime make, for there are procedures to be followed, starting with the Lebanese Government or the Red Cross filing them charges. Now outside of this place I have yet to hear the words war crime. Why? I suspect, otherwise they would have filed and put a banner on papers in the arab world, that they cannot prove it, but hey I have no idea how that works, since I never took testimony from suspected war crime victims... so I guess I have no clue.

as to the nazis, the lesson my father learned and up to now I refused to take heed, is that you can get comfortable anywhere as a Jew... so I am ready and willing to run now.

Being critical of Isreal is one thing... and in some respects I am very critical as well (sorry self hating jew here)... having knee jerk reactions is quite another. It is in these knee jerk reactions we are seeing soemthing uggly take form

[ComerPerro]

122. I could say the same thing about DUer's here and their claims about our

own government.

Accusing the government of commiting crimes or atrocities does not equate to telling lies about an entire people.

[EFerrari]

147. And it is those distinctions that get lost in the flamefests.

Maybe they are the first to go, after civility.

Junior is not America and he's definitely not me.

[DistressedAmerican]

138. You even assert that your criticism of Israel is anti-semitic? WTF?

"Being critical of Isreal is one thing... and in some respects I am very critical as well (sorry self hating jew here)... having knee jerk reactions is quite another. It is in these knee jerk reactions we are seeing soemthing uggly take form"

"Critical of Israel" = "Self hating jew"

Right there in your own words. If you think you are a "self hating jew" when you criticize Israel what do you think of the rest of us when we do it? The answer is clear, "Jew haters".


How about you please wake up to that dynamic.



If that example does not click for you let me try this quote:

"I said that many of the old canards of classic antisemitism have morphed themselves and taken new forms... such as they are purposely killing civilians (never mnd human shield use) the original form of this one"

Now if the killing of Lebanese civilians by purposefully dropped bombs (from Israel) is brought up, it is the same as "blood Libel" to you. An attack on all "Jews".


I heard someone actually claim that the term "neocon" was now a codeword for "jew".


Are you getting any of this? :freak:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. If You Believe Opinion Polling

Anti-semitism as well as other forms of bigotry are declining in the States.

That being said ,polling in this area can be skewed because most people are loathe to admit they are racists even to "anonymous" pollsters.

[JNelson6563]

100. Interesting....

Oh and I do not expect to post any responses for I expect some responses to accuse me of raising a hornets nest. I have learned over the last two weeks that discussion is not possible... so here is the fast ball, have fun.

Translation: Now that I've shit in the pool I'm getting out, enjoy the water!

Yeah, thanks.

While I have no interest in any kind of discussion on the subject matter with you, I would like to comment on your style of dialogue. Yesterday I posted what must've been my first comment on DU regarding this current conflict. You jumped all over me demanding solutions and accusing me of spouting platitudes. That was my "welcome to the discussion" comment. BTW, I answered that commentary from you and I note you didn't bother answering. Well the same point stands here and that is, lose the hostility and perhaps you may find yourself in the middle of a rational dialogue. You pointed your finger mighty quickly yesterday, wrongly I might add, and today you headline with your issues with the discussion on the topic. More cooler heads might prevail in a discussion if they aren't broadsided immediately by the more, shall we say "emotionally invested" on the topic.

Julie

[Nimrod2005]

102. Well said....nt

[Nimrod2005]

101. Here is my take: Fuck Israel, big time...And I don't have any problems

with the religion itself, not at all.

The country/leaders of Israel and the government of Israel are evil. Just like the Taliban in Afghanistan were evil, and I don't have a problem with Islam, the religion.

Get it?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. The Taliban

The Taliban tried to destroy ancient Buddhist statues, stoned adulterers, and crushed gays under stadium walls.

When the leaders of Israel do shit like that I will argue that all good people cut them off.

[survivor999]

106. You have a reasonable point (n t)

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. Thank you for illustrating the point I made

by the way... telll me exacly when the Israeli government burned the Al Aqsah mosque? Then tell me exactly when the Taliban destroyed bushist statues?

What is more, when did Israel prevent the entry of pilgrims to go to Jerussalem unimpeded, and exactly when was a christian elected to the Taliban Paraiment? Last time I checked this apartheid state has members of parlaimet who ARE arab Jews, and soem of the IDF units are Volunteer Druze and even Arab Israelis... But I am proof possitive you knew this.

Thanks for playing

[Scurrilous]

117. "What is more, when did Israel prevent the entry...

... of pilgrims to go to Jerussalem unimpeded."

Today. Wednesday, August 2, 2006.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285451,00.html

"On Wednesday the entry of Muslim worshippers to the Temple Mount will be restricted, and Thursday the site will be closed to visitors. Until then, only Muslim men above 45 years of age in possession of blue IDs will be permitted access. There will be no restrictions on the entry of women."

[Nimrod2005]

144. Nadin, you are proving my point actually, here is how

You want to equate how I (and many others) feel about the country of Israel with antisematism...I understand antisemitism to be against the Jewish people or religion and I agree with you that such feelings exist.

At the same time, I think Israel as a country/a body of politics, leadership, foreign policy...etc. is flat out evil. All of them the Druze the Arabs the Christians in that government...etc. is evil, I feel the same way about many other countries in the world no matter what religious background they have.

Are you an Israeli? If you are, then you can have a problem with my opinion about your country...If you are just a Jewish person, you should know I have no problem with your religion.

I hope this helps...

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. You are mistaken and you have misread the posts

I said... let me put it in simple words for you.

1.- Blood libel has morphed from simple blood libel to they are killing civilians on purpose

2.- The Jews control the government has morphed into the Israeli government controls US Actions.

Is this simple enough for you?

Nowhere in my post did I state that being critical of Israel was antisemitic perse... but go ahead and live in your fantasy world.

By the by, the canards are common across history... they have just evolved to a new form.

(and if you even were half way careful you'd soon realize, not that I epxect you to, that criticism of Israel in my view is not automatically antisemitic... but that at times antisemites do hide behind critism of Isreal and use such as a cover)

[Codeine]

115. Get it?

No actually, I don't. You've made a broad and sweeping statement not backed up anything even remotely resembling facts. That's not arguing, that's just shouting. Get that?

[Nimrod2005]

135. I simply stated my opinion of things, that's all, a humble opinion.

I have opinions about people and entities...etc.

[Hoping4Change]

116. Any rise in anti-semitic ism is directly related to Israel and its policies

Noam Chomsky is no anti-semite and his view of Israel is shared by many who you accuse of being anti-semitic. Chomsky is critical that Israel was established as a Jewish State. He supports an ethnic homeland for Jews but says "that the idea of an ethnic state is itself racist and the ethnicity in question (or its history) does not matter. In an interview on C-SPAN he said:

"I have always supported a Jewish ethnic homeland in Palestine. That is different from a Jewish state. There's a strong case to be made for an ethnic homeland, but as to whether there should be a Jewish state, or a Muslim state, or a Christian state, or a white state — that's entirely another matter."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

121. The Existence Of Israel Justifies Anti-Semitism

Hmmmm..


Think about it... You are endorsing the original poster's position. A position she has taken a lot of flak for.

[EFerrari]

128. I disagree. Antisemitism has little to do with Israel at all.

It has always been here and now it's being amplified by BushCo as a political tool.

And the lower our awareness of bigotry stays ("they do it, not me"), the easier it is for them to manipulate us.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. Hmmm

"Any rise in anti-semitic ism is directly related to Israel and its policies."

Really if you study anti-semitism you will discover that hate for Jews has little to do with Israel.
Anti-semitism certainly preceded the state of Israel by about 3, 700 years.

Here are the reasons adduced by anti-semites for their hatred of Jews:

-They control the world.

-Their first allegiance is to fellow Jews and not their country.

-They fetishize the accumulation of money.

-They think they are superior to other people.

Blaming anti-semitism on Israel is a convenient way to excuse anti-semitism and undermine Israel at the same time.

[Hoping4Change]

199. I use the word anti-semitic because the OP uses it.

My preference would be to use either the term anti-Israeli or anti-Zionist sentiment but it becomes pointless because to Jewish sensibilities those terms are simply indicators of anti-semitism.

I in no way disagree with you that anti-semitic predates Israel and I acknowledge that Jews have suffered immeasurably. With those points there is no debate.

However I think there was a sea-change at some point after WWII. Perhaps it is the fact that Israel became in important player in the military-industrial complex plans to control oil. Perhaps one can pin it on Post-Modernism. But nevertheless Jews are no longer the outsiders. Who would have thought even 20 years ago a Jew would be a US VP candidate? Which I might add is a change for the better and a change long time coming.

Given the fact of the many demonstrable changes in social attitudes and given the fact that several generations have past since Hitler's atrocities, Jews who have never experienced the ostracism their ancestors endured, act as if nothing has changed, when clearly it has. Why maintain this sense of persecution? Jews are no longer victims, they are players.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. Thank you for backing the original point

with no less than Noam Chomsky, who I am sure will not make this point, this way. Antisemitism if far older than the state of Israel by at least 3000 years, but I am sure you knew this already. It is a virus, conveniently used by governments to bleed off steam... when need be.

[Jamastiene]

118. While I do agree with you that the antiSemitism is on the rise,

I can't say that I understand why we need to choose sides in this conflict. I would really rather see peace some how, some way. I'm not as naive as many may think for saying that. All it would take would be for one side or the other or both (preferably for a real peace) to just stop killing and maiming each other. Gandhi could grasp that concept. Martin Luther King, Jr. could grasp that concept. Where are the wise men of our current world? We can't seem to find them, because they aren't there, unfortunately.

I have been very concerned recently to see some antiSemitic comments on DU lately. I has really made me do some soul searching. I won't hate Jewish people and I won't hate the mere idea of the existence of Israel, especially for the reason you mentioned. In my heart of hearts, though, I cannot say that Israel is justified in bombing civilian areas. Seeking justice or going after Hezbollah or any other terrorist group is fine with me, but using the excuse that "they hide behind civilians" is the same excuse our chimp in charge has used. I can't go along with that.

Maybe I have an overly simplified view of how to resolve this conflict. I certainly don't know everything, but I do know one thing; antiSemitism is NOT the answer.

P.S. Would someone please enlighten me? Aren't Palestinians considered Semites too?

[Meshuga]

129. Sure...

Check out this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1762510

[Jamastiene]

139. Thank you and even more importantly

thank you for your levelheadedness. So many have lost sight of our camaraderie on DU lately and gone for each other's jugular veins. It's good to know that there are others who are against the blanket hate in any case. It's not what we REALLY stand for, normally. Why this has heated up into a full blown internal war (circular firing squad) on DU is beyond me. I only wish we could find some peace amongst ourselves first, so we could then spread the secret to how to find that peace with the rest of the world.

Again, thank you for defining the difference between the two spellings of the word to me and thank you for explaining that bigotry just isn't the answer.

[Meshuga]

156. Thank you for your kindness

Kindness is the best tool to get people to listen to your point without people getting defensive.

As far as antisemitism goes, as the Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer has put it:

"Anti-Semitism" is altogether an absurd construction, since there is no such thing as 'Semitism' to which it might be opposed. In German... there is no hyphen, and the word has no precise meaning, although its connotations are well understood.

[Snivi Yllom]

124. What does Mel Gibson and some of DU have in common?

Both claim to not be anti-semitic but lay down some of the most obvious statements to the contrary.

You can smell it.

[Skidmore]

132. What I do smell is a heaping pile of unadulterated

crap deposited by righteous provocateurs with biases of their own.

[Xeric]

142. If you feel that DU is a hotbed of anti-Semitism

Then perhaps you would prefer not to be here. This constant drumbeat of claiming anti-Semitism is tiresome and irresponsible and it does nobody's cause any good.
In the US I see far more evidence of anti-Muslim and anti-Arab hatred than I do anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli hatred. Almost every day there is a LTTE in my hometown paper decrying "Islamofascism" and cheering on the PNAC neocon agenda. I have yet to see one refering to "Judeofascism". The cry of anti-Semitism sounds increasingly shrill and opportunistic.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bretttido]

159. You find a post or two about that, fine but don't go broad brushing

the entire DU community as anti-semites. It's like right-wing spouting that the media has a liberal bias because they've run out of ways to excuse their disgusting behavior. I have seen a number of posts that are clearly anti-arab... shall we label DU anti-arab as well?

[Snivi Yllom]

161. I did not

I was careful in my language

I said "some of DU"

[EFerrari]

174. And this is a good illustration of broadbrush slander that

is as unhelpful as possible to any useful discussion we have here.

"You can smell it."

What about using other parts of your nervous system on this issue?

[devilgrrl]

127. And that's what the fascists want!

Faith-based hatred!

[EFerrari]

149. Yep. Bingo. n/t

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. No many at DU have lost it

but that is ok... I am sure this is part of the war madness that overcomes people, seen it before and I am sure I will see it again

[Skidmore]

164. Nadin, "war madness" is a phrase that just floors me.

Many of us have been arguing FOR a ceasefire and AGAINST war, desiring to see peace and no more bloodshed in the region. We are not out there lusting after blood and trying to justify the shedding of blood. I would respectfully point out that there are several on this forum, including you, who seem to think that war is the only answer and that, if some of us don't support a policy of war, we are somehow engaging in a ethnic slur against you and your people. I would suggest that you reconsider that charge and consider that there is room for more than one set of ideas to be considered at a time. It is not always an "either/or" construct.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. War a force that gives us meaning

read it

Then come back to me

After that no war is not the only answer, but the final answer. And if you are going to talk about why this happened, you will have to look farther than two troops being kidnapped...

Israel DID pull out of Southern Lebanon in 2000

Hisbollah continued to lobe Katyushas on a weekly basis since 2000

Those are facts... and they have precious little to do with American policy in the ME. (In fact this war goes against all interests in teh WH but I am sure yuo will correct me on this)

Do they need to break the cycle? Absolutely, but neither side is innocent, and I have yet to read that on this place... for the most part.

So yes, DU has lost it. (Or at least many in DU... many who I once considered to be level headed... no more)

[Skidmore]

172. If war is what gives you meaning, then I do feel very sad for

you because it is a destructive force and not a creative act. You will get all of it you can wish for (both sides) by just keepin'on keepin' on. War begets more war. Does it have to go to the last man standing? How many deaths will satiate you (on either side)? Will it ever be enough? Will you ever be fulfilled?

I do disagree with you about this war having little to do with American policy in the ME--* is delighting in the fact that the ME is further destabilized by it and that he now is presented with an opportunity to suck America in to an open conflict with Iran, something he knows will never fly on its own merits now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. read the book then come back to me

or you have no clue what book I am talking about. Incidentelly that book will explain a lot to you about how war works in the psycology of people and perchance open your yes to some posiblities as to how to solve the ME crisis... don't take my word for it, read the book. It is fairly short, and actually enjoyable.

And yes, yuo will correct me... it has precious little to do with PNAC or the policies of the Bush administration... in fact... when all is said and done it is undermnning that policy and maklng plainly clear that the US is truly a paper tiger now.

[Skidmore]

179. What the hell are you talking about? What book?

I have no idea what you mean.

As for how war works on the psychology of people, I do have a good idea, having lived through several years of a war up front and personal. I abhor war and the overwrought righteousness with which it is pursued as an easy answer to resolving problems. It doesn't take much insight or intelligence to pick up a weapon and kill someone you don't like. It does take some skill to engage that individual in constructive dialogue. War is the lazy man's tool.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. link

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400034639/103-1733622-1659842?v=glance&n=283155

[Skidmore]

190. And reading this will give me warm fuzzies about war?

I'll save my money and use it to better purpose. I don't need to kill or support killing to connect to my community or my nation. I don't need to give tacit or open approval to atrocities to make me feel better about myself. I don't need to learn a way to justify killing as a noble cause.

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. no, not warm fuzzes about war

but you are so open to readying that you will pass on one of the greatest anti war books of the 21st century. Congratulations, you just won the price... and proved just how open you are to readying material that may be challenging. here is another book that is antiwar but the tille would not tell you this, Johnny Got his Gun... but do whatever you want.

[Skidmore]

198. The description of that book certainly doesn't read as an

anti-war book. Indeed, it reads as a book that tries to explain why people war and that it is part of the human condition and that's all there is to it. We need to somehow accept it.

Now, on another note. I am really getting sick of trying to be polite to you, and getting snide and angry retorts for my effort. I'm a person slow to anger but I've more than had my fill of trying to discuss anything with you. Maybe you need to take a break for a while. Or visit some other threads on other topics and give a chance for the air to clear around here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

206. maybe I do need to go away

and if I have been rude my apologies, but what I am seeing in DU in general sickents me, worries me, and I now know that I have truly no nation. I gues this lesson is one leanred by Jews every generation.

So I guess you are right... I should go away, maybe permanently... after all discusing soething as worrisome as this... has led to stomach aches and sleeplesness at night.... since oh 2000... so maybe it it time to throw myself completely into work and forget about the country... that was my conclusion yesterday. Mebbe should stick to that conclusion and to the realization why war will never truly end, for we are tribes united by a false sense of nation.

[Skidmore]

212. That's more than a tad melodramatic. I suggest you try to

listen to what some of us are saying instead. Just because someone disagrees with you, it does not follow that they are an enemy. That's real concrete thinking there. It does not also follow that people are not able to empathize with more than one person. I understand why you are so upset, but I also understand the grievances of other peoples in the ME.

Take a break. Or if you stay, hear what others are saying as well. There really are two sides to this issue. Actually, there are many sides to this issue. All of which have some merit to them.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

184. That's a TITLE OF A BOOK! Please read the entire posts

BEFORE you leave your snarky responses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

186. I guess the author was as sick as I am too

here you go moron

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400034639/103-1733622-1659842?v=glance&n=283155

[AngryAmish]

175. I have not read every post in this thread

That said, people are acting awfully strangely. Maybe it is the heat.

[sweetheart]

181. ummm, where's my hide thread

Hide thread is so difficult to use with the spam of all this I/P crap... yes crap.

Whatever be your identity crisis, to project it on to the silent many is just 'crap'.

I'm sure that bush is just about to sweep you off to dachau. oh dear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. And you wuuld dance in the streets?

[jasmeel]

182. This issue should be discussed as the powerful vs. the powerless

Who has more guns and military might? Who has killed more innocent civilians? Those are the questions. It has NOTHING to do with Israel-we could be talking about any country.

[Skidmore]

193. You got it.

[EFerrari]

202. For some people, is has everything to do with Israel.

For some of us, it doesn't, that's true I think. But for some DUers, the discussion is abosolutely bound up in Israel as a Jewish state.

And, you have to toss in the odd disruptor who'd like to see us screaming at each other for their entertainment.

[Jacobin]

183. Oh my. Not that worn out canard again

:nopity:

Accusing people of bigotry when they criticize the actions of a theocracy, is a very worn out ploy, used now only by dilettantes who have run out of excuses for their country's actions.

If you don't like what you are reading here, try Fox News. They are high behind Israel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. Read the while fucking post

or maybe the cliffs notes I will give you, which by the way, have very little to do with Isreal beyond how it is being used

Blood libel, transformed from killing Christian kids in passover to they are pusposely targetting civilians

The Jews control governmetns to Jews control the US Government

Hope you can see that, and if not, well so be it... antisemitism has been with us for the last 3700 years and it is not going away any time soon

[Jacobin]

200. Um

So, if we don't accept your view of the world, and ignore what is happening today, then we are anti semites? AIPAC anyone? you deny the influence they have over the U.S. government's actions?

Fine, call me any name you want, but I refuse to be deluded into taking the AIPAC/Neocon line by being labeled a fucking bigot. Its a recipe for disaster for the US and Israel. Self interest (on both sides) apparently is not involved in these discussions.

What happened to reality? It might stand you in better stead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

214. Aipac has influence but it has been exaggerated

the current lebanon war is UNDERMINING US interests in the region all screaming not withstanding and prove that the US is a paper tiger. Pay heed to what is ACTUALLY GONG ON in the area. the Europeans, NOT the US will get that ceasefire... the US is a paper tiger that cannot even attempt to control its client state. That is the reality on the ground... exposed for all to see, if you are paying attention.

[Cronus Protagonist]

209. Your writing is almost completely incoherent

Your grammar, spelling and lack of punctuation is so atrocious that your point, if you have one, is not visible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

215. Ok, spelling and grammar fllame now

I will give you the cliffs notes

1.- Blood Libel, evolving from the classic Jews kill christina kids during passover to they are purposely targetting civilians

2.- Jews ontrol governments to the US government is controlled by Israel.

Clear enough for you?

by the way, these two cananards are older than the Nazis, far older.

They are also far older than the modern state of Israel too

[Vanje]

189. You still here?

I thought you left DU forever yesterday.
Take a break. go outside. Take a walk. Ride a bike.
Really. Youll like what you see.

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. why not add someting useful instaed of telling me why

I was ruight on my first instinct, the level of hate is incredible and rising.

[The Magistrate]

216. Locking

This has become a flame-war.