Should Israel complain about civilian deaths?

[Bandit]

After all Hezbolla gave them warning so they should have fled their homes. Isn't that the rationale Israel is using? Why are Israelites remaining in their homes when they have clearly been warned about attacks by Hezbolla? If something does not compute it is meant that way.....:shrug:

[catmother]

1. does Hizbollah give them warnings?

[zreosumgame]

6. and they respected the cease-fire

Israel ramped up the violence. Sorry, no angels in that area at all it looks like.

[barb162]

23. And Hez ramped up the violence today. 190 rockets fired off

into Israel

[barb162]

17. Not that I ever read or heard on the news

[cali]

2. Yet another breathtakingly

dumb post. I'm beginning to despair.

[ThomCat]

3. I agree with you. It's amazing how poorly thought-out

many posts are recently. Everything is being reduced to one-liners and text-bites on each side.
:(

[cali]

7. It's reflective

of a society that doesn't value reflection. People just blurt out the first thing that passes through their minds, without bothering to reflect on it.

[eFriendly]

9. That's evident. . .

by your recent postings that I have read. If you don't agree with a topic or opinion -- it's dumb. WTF?!

BTW: Do you ever contribute to a discussion or just go around criticizing people for their attempts at discussion, in one-liners? (Just out of curiosity)

[cali]

10. Here's another one liner for you

You see what you want to see. You're a newbie; I've been here for years. If you're interested in whether or not I write anything substantive, you can always check out my journal. It doesn't have much, but it does have a few threads I started.

[Poll_Blind]

11. Cali's "I've been here longer than you, so I'm RIGHT" canard. AGAIN. n/t

PB

[cali]

12. Yet again

I'd ask you to provide just one post where I've ever said to someone I've been here longer than you. You seem to have a habit of accusations without proof.

[pelsar]

14. no cali actually has something to say!

however it seems cali simply has little patience for posts that are made up of half truths, that "rape the english language", made up ignorent statements etc, which seems to be the "standard" here.

write an intelligent post, based on real facts, minus the hyperbole and cali has something to say....(which i many times disagree with)

[eFriendly]

21. LOL!

No, thank you, though. I think I've already heard/seen enough. :eyes:

[0007]

16. I'll vouch for cali, the poster your trying so hard to put down.

Cali does contribute to many discussions and rarely criticizes without justification.

You are dead wrong and owe cali an apology for your rude remarks.

[eFriendly]

22. "trying so hard to put down"?!?!

You are mistaken. I simply asked a question. I don't owe anyone on this site an apology (or anything else, for that matter). But you can think what you like...

[Bandit]

8. I agree with your dumb post concept

:shrug: but logic still prevails.

[oberliner]

20. My favorite part is the use of the word "Israelites"

to describe Israelis.

[Meshuga]

27. I know! :-)

They don't know that Israelite = Jew. A Christian can be an Israeli but he cannot be an Israelite. Unless he/she is an inhabitant of the ancient Northern Kingdom of Israel. :-)

[catmother]

28. i believe that's what they were called in "biblical" terms.

[rockymountaindem]

30. Yes and no

"Israelite" is a religious term, meaning the decendants of Jacob, to whom the Jews of the Bible and today trace their spiritual/ethnic heritage. God granted Jacob the name of "Israel", meaning "one who struggles with God", after Jacob physically fought against a messenger angel sent by God. Thus, we Jews call ourselves the "Sons/Daughters of Israel", which in that context means Jacob, the grandson of Abraham and son of Issac. At the time the Bible was written, there was only one united Jewish kingdom, which was not known as Israel at the time. Thus in the biblical sense, "Israelite" refers to anyone who would call themselves a "child of Israel (Jacob)".

On edit: compare the term "Israelite" from the Bible to similar terms like "Amalikite" and "Moabite".

The term "Israeli" refers to any citizen of the modern state of Israel, whether or not they are Jewish. Some of the founders of modern Israel suggested that the new country be named "Judea", after the old kingdom, in order to avoid confusion. I have often thought "Judea" would have been a better name, but I guess it's not that important.

[catmother]

32. thank you. so if were to move to israel even though i'm not

jewish i would be called an israeli. i assume that there are people who live there who are not jewish -- maybe their job is there, etc.

[catmother]

35. look at my response #34. it applies to you too.

:hi:

[rockymountaindem]

36. My pleasure!

Thanks for your support. To answer the question from your other post, the answer is yes. If you were to move to Israel and become a citizen of Israel (which if you're not Jewish takes 5 years, I believe), you would be an Israeli, but you would not be an "Israelite" without converting to Judaism (which, BTW, converts are also children of Israel).

About 1/5th of Israelis are non-Jewish, including Christians, Muslims and Druze. The Druze in particular are interesting. Not much is known about their religion, because they have done an excellent job of keeping their doctrine a secret to outsiders, with whom many Druze rarely associate. What we do know is that it developped out of a mystical sect of Islam about 700 years ago, and it is believed to contain elements of Muslim, Christian and Jewish doctrine (imagine that!). Druze live mostly in Israel, Lebanon and Syria. Because Israel is the first modern state not to persecute Druze for their beliefs, they are very loyal Israelis, who have fought side-by-side in every Israeli war with their Jewish countrymen. Recently there was a monument erected in Northern Israel to honor the over 100 Druze who have given their lives in the service of Israel. Also there has recently been a Druze Major-General in charge of the Home Defence branch of the IDF. So, there's a good example of "Israelis" who are not "Israelites".

[catmother]

37. that is so interesting. i never knew about the Druze. my

sister converted to judaism about 20 years ago so she would be an Israelite?

we have a woman on these boards who is a sufi muslim. she's american -- a convert -- she says it's the mystical part of islam and also very peaceful. she said they also recognize all religions. we met during the muslim cartoon controversy. she always was so nice and calm even when real nasty things were being said about muslims. i sent her a PM and we started e-mailing each other -- telling each other about our spiritual paths. it was a really nice experience -- i prayed for her brother when he was having surgery -- and she prayed for my cat when he was sick. we just had contact a week or so ago and she said i'm still in her daily prayers.

it would be nice if everyone were open minded and tried to learn instead of criticize. i am so sickened by what i've been seeing on these boards the last few weeks. everytime i say i'm going to stay away i meet someone nice like you and it keeps me here.

shalom

[rockymountaindem]

38. Hey

Yes, your sister is an Israelite. Judaism, while not a proselytizing religion, is always welcoming to converts, for two reasons. The most proximate reason is because of forced conversions to Christianity and Islam during the middle ages and afterwards. One could never know for sure whether a convert was a first-time Jew or a Jew who had been forceably converted to another religion and was rejoining the fold.

Secondly, from a theological perspective, we really respect anybody who actually *wants* to be Jewish. Ths is because while Jews only hold non-Jews to seven laws (known as the Noahide Laws), we hold ourselves to 613 laws. So, anybody who is willing (in our opinion) to subject themselves to all those extra laws is pretty hardcore (to use the precise theological expression).

As for the Druze.... I took a class on Islamic history a year ago, and for all our time spent on Islam I think we spent about 20 minutes all year talking about the Druze. I should probably look them up in wikipedia at this point, but yeah.... if Jews are my brothers than the Druze are my cousins, so here's to them :toast:

Except I don't think they drink alcohol, so I guess that would have to be root beer.

[catmother]

40. if my memory serves me right, my sis had to go before a board

of rabbis to tell them why she wanted to convert. i know it took her a few years before she had her "mikvah".

they were just talking about the Druze in lebanon saying they were supporting Hizbollah. guess it depends on where they live.

it's so weird. i lived the first 48 years of my life in new york -- always around jewish people -- lived in a jewish neighborhood. here in phoenix, i've only had one jewish health care provider and i've met maybe 2 or 3 jews. in fact, last week i experienced anti-semitism for the first time here. i posted my experience in the I/P forum.

BTW: we were raised roman catholic -- i have 2 sisters. we all gave up the religion in our early 20s. so now 1 is jewish, the other one is nothing -- just tries to be a good person and me, i've been around -- had a couple of spiritual teachers in new york. still haven't decided yet -- just practicing the golden rule. same with my husband -- but he was raised with anti-semitic parents. they were also anti-italian, anti-puerto rican. he's nothing like them. my parents were much more liberal.

[Meshuga]

31. Yep

And an Israelite is also used to refer to a member of the "People of Israel", a Jew. Or a member of "The Jewish People". I'm an Israelite but I am not Israeli, unless I decide to make aliyah and become an Israeli citizen through the law of return. :-)

[catmother]

34. such an education i'm getting. i want you to know that as i wrote

that, in my mind i said it with a yiddish accent. i just found out what aliyah was last week. someone mentioned it on a thread so i googled it. again, such an education. lol:hi:

my uncle who is german irish (looks irish) went into business years ago with 2 of his jewish friends. it was a gold refining business. but when he spoke you would have sworn he was jewish. when it would see him i would say "so uncle eddy, how's business"?.

i have a great fondess for the jewish people.:)

[jsamuel]

4. Both sides only seem to believe in only their propaganda.

[ThomCat]

13. There are a lot of facts out there.

Unfortunately, facts get dismissed, and interpretation of facts vary.

[jsamuel]

26. true, and facts can be included and omitted in such a way that they become

propaganda

[bushisamoran]

5. Hezbollah doesn't drop leaflets.

That makes it unfair, you see.

[barb162]

19. Does Hezbollah make any announcements?

No. Hez gives no warnings to innocent Israelis about their rocket fire.

[pelsar]

15. israel doesnt.....

i have yet to hear israel, the citizens or govt actually "complaining" as if its "not fair." The reason is pretty simple, israeli citizens have been 'game" since day one. Be it previous massacres, terrorists raids etc, nothings changed. Nassrala is quite obvious about his intent to kill as many jewish israeli citizens as possible..but thats a given, so too are the various jihadnikim and their kassams and suicide bombers...again those things are "expected.".... (anybody perhaps want to explain to me why?)

Israel on the other hand, has moved on since 48 in that respect, the world expects different, the IDF soldiers act different...its assymetrical morals and values.

[barb162]

42. It's called a double standard

Nasrallah can make statements he wants all Jews in Israel dead and then he acts on it. Over 200 rockets fired into Israel today alone, nary a peep about it ...let's see how many threads of outrage there will be about Nasrallah and all these rockets being fired into Israel

[barb162]

18. Got a link for "Hezbolla gave them warning"

Hez doesn't give warnings.

[Recursion]

24. Hezbollah has given tons of warnings

Here are a couple of examples:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1154123417801&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=117315

(hmm... an IDF announcement is a "warning"; a Hezbollah announcement is a "threat"... anyways)

Hezbollah has made no bones about the fact that it considers all of northern Israel as part of the battlespace. If people don't want rockets to hit them, they need to move to the south of the country. They even warned civilians that south of Haifa wasn't far enough; they need to go at least as far as Tel Aviv.

[barb162]

41. So Canada and Australia "papers" are now warnings to Israel

of incoming? That's rich.

[Recursion]

44. Those were just the first two results on Google news

I saw similar reports in Le Monde, NYT, Al Ahram, and Haaretz, as well as on CNN.

[Minstrel Boy]

25. 15% of Israeli fatalities have been civilians, and none before

Israel's escalation.

Seven of ten Lebanese killed are non-combatanta, about half of those children.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. That's not true

One Israeli civilian was killed by Hezbollah shelling in the time between the Israeli pull-out from Lebanon and the current hostilities. Haviv Dadon was killed in August 2003 by an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah.

[Minstrel Boy]

33. one in six years

Thank you for the clarification.

Any idea how many Lebanese civilians were killed by Israeli airstrikes in the same period?

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Yes, that's the point

One.

[SPKrazy]

43. Hezbollah Drops Leaflets, Or Calls Their Homes?

to let them know they are firing unguided rockets into their region and they might want to take cover

Canard is all this is