Are you surprised so many DUers are supporting Israel's actions...?

[kentuck]

in this latest invasion of Lebanon? Not surprised that they are supporting Israel but that they are supporting Israel this time? Do you wonder if there is anything Israel could do that they would not support? It seems that most people here that are against these latest actions of Israel usually support Israel? But, are you surprised so many support Israel in this invasion of Lebanon? Perhaps we could call it something other than "invasion"??

[BrewAz]

1. What surprises me is that...

very few see the current efforts in Lebanon for what it is: A US supported thrust against Iran and Syria. It may not have started out as such...but certainly the last 2 weeks of US "no-immediate-ceasefire" posturing is an enabler of the whole "Clean Break" strategy that the righties came up with a few years back.

Read it here: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm

SO...here we have another idealogical white paper that has become US foreign policy...(like the PNAC writings about Iraq)....no military plan or contingency plan just an idea. The latest Israel-Hezbollah just gave the Bushies an opportunity to implement the craziness.

BrewAz

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earth mom]

54. Agree-it's totally PNAC driven.

What I don't understand is why people around here don't get that?!

:wtf:

[Totallybushed]

2. I haven't been here long,

I lurked for a while before registering, may 3-4 months, but even that doesn't add much to the time I've been here.

So, take this observation for what it is worth.

Mainly, the same people, including me, that have supported Israel in the past do so now. Mainly, the same people that have not supported Israel in the past do not do so now.

Nope. It doesn't surprise me at all.

[k_jerome]

4. good observation. nt.

[leveymg]

3. Some of us don't want to see Israel destroy and bring shame on itself

We've seen Israel taken over by the "neo-con" Right-wing, as was planned in the 1997 "Clean Break" document by Perle, Feith, Wurmser and others. That was explicitely a plan to consolidate Rightist power within Israel, and regional conquest was a path to that. It laid out the order of conquest -- Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, then Iran. Southern Lebanon was then under Israeli occupation, and was seen as a cat's paw for Syria. This is what that document said about Lebanon: http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

Securing the Northern Border

Syria challenges Israel on Lebanese soil. An effective approach, and one with which American can sympathize, would be if Israel seized the strategic initiative along its northern borders by engaging Hizballah, Syria, and Iran, as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon, including by:

striking Syria’s drug-money and counterfeiting infrastructure in Lebanon, all of which focuses on Razi Qanan.

paralleling Syria’s behavior by establishing the precedent that Syrian territory is not immune to attacks emanating from Lebanon by Israeli proxy forces.

striking Syrian military targets in Lebanon, and should that prove insufficient, striking at select targets in Syria proper.

So far, things have been going right according to plan. By opposing the plan, we are also fighting to prevent the assertion of power by the same cabal of fascists over Israel and the U.S. The rise to power of BushCo and the neocons has been a disaster for both countries.

We on the Left care about America and Israel - that is why we oppose the ruination of both.

[bryant69]

5. What do you suggest?

I was going to make a crack about supporting Hezbollah, but i know despite the many people who see it as a legitimate organization who has the right analysis on Isreal, nobody here actually supports it. Or is willing to own up to it, anyway.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[oberliner]

7. Is the incorrect spelling of Israel done deliberately?

Or is it just a typo?

I've seen it spelled as "Isreal" so often that I am starting to wonder.

[bryant69]

9. I apologize for my misspelling

I type fast and make mistakes. Words cannot express my despair at my own incompetance at making my points, and I hope that at least a few readers of DU can look past these miserable excuses for posts to see my point.

[leveymg]

10. You do alright. Keep posting, Bryant. eom

[kentuck]

17. I always read your posts, bryant69...

Your posts are always sincere and honest.

[EFerrari]

12. I do it often and think it's because I'm hearing

"Iz ree ul" and so reverse the vowels. It's unintentional AND embarrassing. If nothing else, this week I'll probably finally get it right more than wrong.

[jonnyblitz]

15. anybody who misspells Israel is an anti-semite!!!

:rofl:

[leveymg]

20. It's all phonetic, anyway.

Just a translation from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to Early English to the accepted modern spelling.

My keyboard doesn't even have the proper characters.

[jonnyblitz]

22. I wasn't serious. I am just stunned how friggen loony some

people are getting.

[leveymg]

27. I wonder if the Right-wing is tearing itself up over this? Anyone know?

This has been the ultimate wedge issue for Democrats. And, don't you know that the GOP and their Israeli Rightist friends are well aware of it!

[oberliner]

39. Actually there is a division between the neocons and paleocons on Israel

A pretty big one.

[leveymg]

44. That's been the case over Iraq as well.

What's your read on how badly its damaged their ability to conduct GOP campaigns? I know that's a big question.

[oberliner]

47. To be honest, I don't think this conflict will affect either party

At least not significantly.

But I haven't read very widely about what impact it has had on campaigns, either Republican or Democratic.

If you've got some links, I'd be interested.

[leveymg]

49. Someone needs to pull that story together. It's interesting and important

[oberliner]

38. no, only a very small percentage of them are

I'm sure you'll let everyone know if you ever find one!

[jonnyblitz]

41. you're so special!

:loveya:

[oberliner]

45. right back at ya

:-) at least we've found mutual admiration and respect for one another in spite of any disagreements

[leveymg]

8. My response is here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/30/83429/5995

AFTER ISRAEL FAILED TO DESTROY HEZBALLAH: Dealing Realistically With Hezballah and Iran
by leveymg
Sun Jul 30, 2006 at 05:34:29 AM PDT
Israel has failed in its mission to destroy Hezbollah in Lebanon. So, what should the United States and Israel do now?

The United States and Israel need to embrace reality, cease operations in Lebanon, and halt the planned war with Iran.

MORE below.


leveymg's diary

[meganmonkey]

6. I highly recommend this video

for folks who want to understand how our thinking about Israel is shaped by US media.

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me1.html

[jonnyblitz]

18. yup, then they will see what BULLSHIT the pro-Israel folks

are spewing. :thumbsup:

[leveymg]

30. It's not pro or anti-Israel. It's pro or anti-war.

One need not be a pacifist to see how this war has backfired on Israel, and will do great damage to its image and long-term interests.

There are plenty of people who are against this war who have the interests of Israel and America at heart.

This debate needs a new frame.

[jonnyblitz]

42. well that is what i meant, people are so touchy about precise

semantics it's like walking through a mind field if you use the slightest incorrect word.

[kentuck]

23. doesn't work for me??

??

[meganmonkey]

37. Hmmm...it took me a few tries when I watched it Monday

also, it is over an hour long (well worth it, though!!) so it may just take a long time to buffer.

[leesa]

11. Nope. So many people can clearly see the Neocon threat in the WH, but

are completely blind to it in Israel because they see Israel as a religion or a heritage and not as a country.

[dipsydoodle]

13. Those who agree with current events

are not necessarily in the majority. I would however agree that the majority of on DU either support the existence of the State of Israel or are completely indifferent toward it as just being another country.

From what's occured over the past week or so it would seem that Lebanon should previously have got itself an airforce with the planes parked up in Jordan for safety. It's the absense of an airforce that has allowed Israel's wholesale hooliganism to continue unabated.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

14. What surprises me is how nationalism in assorted forms can...

continue to usurp the humanism that, in my opinion, is central to being a progressive Democrat?

Like I said, just my opinion. :shrug:

[treestar]

16. No, I think anyone who supports what Israel is doing now is probably

going to support them whatever they do.

It appears to be a very emotional issue for some people.

[cali]

21. I think you're right.

It's about emotion, but I must add that the number of DUers who are unequivocally backing Israel is very small.

[pelsar]

51. emotion is a part of it...

but it doesnt mean it clouds ones judgement when looking at the situation, looking at the alternatives, playing a guessing game of "what will be" what would have been" and would could be done" (or one could consult an astrologist and probably get the same answers)


i dont know how much anyone here actually knows about Hizballa, but perhaps the fact that it "owned" large parts of Lebanon, and Beirut, was slowly doing a creeping occupation of lebanon, affected its foreign policy and is in cahoots with iran, might mean something to some people....and of course the small fact that they are religious fanatics (not exactly liberal in their beliefs) might raise some questions of their intentions.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[Mandate My Ass]

29. The are certain topics I won't even click on

because it's a guaranteed flame war, where little actually is discussed and the ad hominems fly fast and loose. But this is one I feel too strongly about to ignore, so I'll don my flameproof suit and carry on.

Plus I've learned a lot since this came up and my former support of the Israeli government has eroded a great deal. Their RW assholes are no better than ours. There are people in Israel protesting against this, and soldiers refusing to serve. I support them 100%.

[jonnyblitz]

34. !!!

:thumbsup:

[underpants]

24. They are?

I posted something slightly favoring Israel last week and got dumped on endlessly.

[BooScout]

25. Not that many are........

There are a few that are voracious in their postings, but from what I can see only a few actually support Israel in their recent endeavours. That being said.....recent polls have put Americans in general supporting Israel at around 55 to 60 percent and no I am not surprised given the crap reporting you get on American TV News and in most American Newspapers. Most Americans either remain ignorant of what is really going on or refuse to beleive that Israel's actions are wrong.

Now watch the rabid Pro-Israel clan come to flame me and call me an anti-Semite......even though I don't support Hezbollah's tactics either but do understand the frustration & grief of the Lebanese people.

[Minstrel Boy]

28. I'm not surprised by support, but I'm dismayed by the moral blinders

that some are wearing so as not to see the atrocities committed by Israel. I would like to say "by both sides," but since the Lebanese dead are nearly all civilian, and the Israeli dead nearly all military, I can't honestly say that.

Also, there seems in some an inability to see how Israel is being played by the war cabal in Washington to precipitate a generalized Middle East war, involving Syria and Iran, creating more "opportunities." Those who love Israel should see that this is not in Israel's interest.

[leveymg]

32. I would say that Washington and Jerusalem have been playing each other, or

rather, both are being played by the same interest groups: neocon funding organizations; defense and homeland security contractors; oil cartels; and, global investment bankers (Carlyle, etc.)

Remove these players from the political process, and 90% of the underlying money that pays for the political organization and propaganda that's driving ME wars would be removed.

[kentuck]

33. But like Kudlow said...

this war is good for the stock market!

[leveymg]

35. I don't say this very often, but,

Fuck him.

He's also wrong. If this thing escalates, and the Straits of Hormuz are blockaded, the Dow would lose 1500 points, at least.

If this is all a big psy-op to try to pressure Tehran into giving up its nuclear program, and Tehran caves, it could be good for the market. We'll see - I don't like government support of equities markets by rigging wars and manufacturing crises, it's a species of kleptocapitalism called, appropriately, "market failure." In the long run, it's very bad for investor confidence and value.

[Minstrel Boy]

36. I think that's right. This goes deeper than interests of state.

In Washington, too. The Bush administration has not been acting in the interest of national security, because it is itself a client of global criminals.

[leveymg]

40. Forensic analysis would show that

the same core group has been at the center of a number of conspiracies from the time of the Iran-Contra-S&L Scandals forward. Just overlay the template for those criminal enterprises over the one for 9/11 financiers, tie in the network of corrupt GOP defense and intelligence contractors, and add the multinational political network that carried out the AIPAC-OSP and Plamegate espionage. Don't forget Enron.

If we had a dozen U.S. Attorneys working this case, we could present it to Grand Juries in 9 months.

[screembloodymurder]

31. Yes I am.

It makes me wonder how many support our war in Iraq.

[izzybeans]

43. Yes

Some people want blood when it comes to this issue. And that is never good. There have been some outlandish justifications for collateral damage on this board. And the search function is your friend on that one.

Then there is the anti-semitism b.s. getting thrown around like candy... Sure some folks clearly have ethnic hatreds (and we can find those posts here too) and yet by pure action alone the israeli response wherever it is directed at Arabs can equally be called anti-Semitic sense Semite refers to the entire peoples of the region. But anyway...Two groups hating each other while the innocent die. If there is a "bias" against Israel on this board it most often refers to its position as the technological Hegemonic power in the region. The war machine. It is the Goliath. And most folks around here want their Goliath to act with a moral compass.

Speaking of a compass:
I just don't like killing. So whatever... Two war criminal factions battling it out at the expense of the people...so whatever...War is the crime. Bombs are murder no matter who slings them and how they are delivered...so whatever...Lebanon has a "right" to exist as does Israel. And yet the history of the colonial fashion of Israel must be recognized. As does the slaughter and concentration via colonialism of Native Americans on both "American" continents. Yeah Europeans spread throughout the world and they treated its peoples like second class citizens...so whatever...Everyone knows the history of the Jewish people in reference to their oppression. Of all people the oppressed should know better. so whatever...If that troubles you...so whatever. I prefer to see it as another battle from the age of colonialism. Cultural conflict in the extreme. Predictable every time.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

46. I don't see many unilaterally supporting Israel's actions in Lebanon

I think a lot of those who support Israel's right to exist don't support the Israeli war in Lebanon, but they do not see Hezbollah in a positive light either.

1. Unfortunately some on the Right have used the term "anti-Semite" to disingenuously label those who do not support the war.

2. Unfortunately since this current round of war started, some unscrupulous people on DU have used legitimate concerns about Israel's actions in Lebanon to mask an anti-Semitic agenda. Many have called for the de facto destruction of Israel. Unfortunately these types of people have tried to disingenuously claim that they are in the same position as those as identified in 1. ; which confuses matters even more.

----------------
I feel it is right and moral to oppose a military solution. I also believe it is wrong to back reactionary Islamic fundamentalist groups who have little to do with the liberal, feminist and socialist traditions. I think it is correct to respect the rights of sovereign nations to exist without violence from paramilitary groups and foreign nations.

The "you're either with us or against us" jargon from the extremes of both sides does little for me, it's all crap as far as I am concerned.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. I support the people of Israel, and Lebanon, and Palestine.

I don't support the murderers of civilians, no matter who's pulling the trigger, dropping the bombs, firing the rockets, for whatever "good cause".

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[MyNameGoesHere]

50. No

no surprises. What is surprising is the similarity between neocon talking points and the pro war sentiment now abundant. even polls show liberals supporting the * admins stance on this. Maybe there are no liberals anymore.

[NNN0LHI]

52. I am more surprised at the amount of outrage directed at the Israelis...

...for their atrocities compared to lack of outrage directed toward Bush and his minions for the atrocities they are committing on a daily basis in Iraq?

That is what surprises me.

Don

[The Straight Story]

56. I think more to the point and relevant (and I DO defend Israel):

The atrocities done by suicide bombers and the like. Someone blows up a bus in Israel and somehow it is their fault, or very few comments on how evil it is and those backing said actions, etc and so on.

THIS is why I defend Israel here. Not all their actions, not their killing civilians, hell I think they have some problems they need to address (all of us do).

I think it is genuinely awful that attacks against one side (ie against Israel) are blamed on the victim for creating terrorists (ie, you made em so don't complain about it crowd) or glossed over. One could use that same argument saying that the factions against Israel made them this way and if they want Israel to stop and play nice they should not do the things they do.

War/terrorism is a two way street. One I wish no one was driving on right now.

[NNN0LHI]

59. I don't see any difference between suicide bombers and pilots...

...who drop bombs on peoples heads from jets.

They are both atrocities and the end result is identical.

I don't approve of either.

Don

[liberalhistorian]

55. I finally had more than enough of it when

some of them jumped the shark and went off the deep end by posting and endorsing a column by Charles Krauthammer, the ultimate neocon wingnut, entitled "Disproportionate in which moral universe?" It makes me sick that any progressive, let alone at DU, could endorse such bigoted tripe from the likes of Krauthammer, and such atrocities and lies as Israel is perpetuating,

[BeHereNow]

57. Not really, the inability to think critically is not a "left" or "right"

condition- it is an uniquely American phenomenon.
There are plenty on the "left" who still think the Clintons
are "good guys."
So why would we be surprised by people on DU
who are unable to connect the PNAC dots to the current situation
in the ME- not to mention the inability to view the situation
throught the eyes and perspective of the Arab nations
who know damn well this is a PNAC operation?

BHN

[T Town Jake]

58. Nope. Decent people know which side has the moral high ground...

...in this conflict, and it sure as hell ain't Hezbollah. So the widespread support for Israel here at DU doesn't surprise me in the least.

[leftofthedial]

60. I think there is nothing Israel could do that some would not support

Kill! Kill! Kill!

Nasty evil enemies of Israel!

Kill! Kill 'em all!

Kill 'em faster! Kill 'em deader!