(Israel, Hezbollah, and Lebanon) Why Israel is doing something wrong...

[originalpckelly]

I know a lot of people out there are quite frustrated with this "debate." I know a lot of people simply cannot see why what Israel is doing is so profoundly wrong. I think I have come up with a situation that may explain this to those out there who simply don't understand how someone could condemn Israel's actions.

A bunch of terrorists take 100 hostages. It would be stupid for the police to go in and kill all the hostages just to kill the hostage takers, wouldn't it? It might even be as wrong or more to kill all of the hostages. Police use snipers, so that they can kill the hostage takers, but not the hostages.

This is the problem with Israel's current military action. It has gone into Lebanon and while it may be killing the terrorists (the hostage takers) it is also killing the hostages.

I think somehow that the people in charge of Israel, and some of the populous value the life of Lebanese civilians less than that of their own civilians. You only have to ask yourself one question, would the Israeli population let the IDF kill 828 people to kill terrorists, if those 828 were Israelis? Common sense leads to the conclusion that the people of Israel would revolt if that sort of thing happened.
(Incidentally, the USA is just as guilty of the same crime, would the US Armed Forces be able to kill 50,000+ Americans and get away with it?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict#Casualties
(The figures have articles backing them up, so I'll take this as the truth. (Who know that many Lebanese had died? That is a lot of people.))

[DRoseDARs]

1. You're a Jew-hating anti-Semite for calling upon logic and decency...

...or so the vitrol goes. :shrug:

[zonkers]

2. How can your analogy be appropriate if the hypothetical hostage

scenario does not include anything representatively equivalent to Hezb.'s previous and ongoing agressions(missle attacks, kidnappings, etc.? The hostages are not an ongoing threat to the police and well being of non complciit citizens.
Just saying.

[cornermouse]

3. Israel is in a cycle of repeating a mistake.

While I can sympathize with their wish to rid themselves of Palestinian militant attacks crossing the border, their continued attacks have made it impossible for Lebanon to develop a more moderate government and eventually rid themselves of destabilizing elements who threaten their own Lebanese government like Hezbollah and the other militant elements. They also made it possible for Syria to "run" Lebanon behind the scenes.

[pelsar]

5. a bit wrong on the info....

Hezballa has been increasing they're footprint in lebanon in the last 6 years...not decreasing. they took s.lebanon, e.lebanon and parts of beirut from the lebanese. Their militia is stronger than the lebanese army etc....basically they were taking over the country a little bit at a time.

[cornermouse]

6. They have been increasing it because Israel

weakened Lebanon. You may not remember, but I can clearly remember Lebanon objecting strongly and repeatedly when Israel first drove the militants out of Israel and into Lebanon. Lebanon didn't want them any more than Israel did. Fact is Israel's actions back then set the stage for now.

And the fact is, you're blaming the victim.

[Sherman A1]

8. Interesting

points came up on NPR on Monday afternoon discussing strictly the military actions of Israel and Hezbollah. The folks commenting seemed to think (as I recall) that Hezbollah was trying to pull Israel into a ground campaign in which it felt it could win. They also felt the air campaign was not going to work, at least alone because of the tactics used by Hezbollah and the negative world opinion that it would and seems to have created. It will be interesting to watch the next few days and see if tactics move more and more to ground actions or raids as we noted yesterday.

[pelsar]

4. your not seeing the "big picture" + your example is wrong and info.

widen your view.....its not about a single incident...this iatest one is one in a series of constant attempts for the last 6 years (and if you havent heard about them, its precisily because israel tried the "pin point method"..and it didnt work.

as far as you example: would the israeli population let 828 people be killed to kill terrorists?... well that answer is actually yes.

many times terrorists took israelis hostage and the IDF went in...only to have the hostages killed....sometimes they were successful and other times not.

to make you example relevant about the hostages and police....add the fact that the same group keeps doing it, the same group has 14000 missles pointed in your direction..and the leaders get paid by a foreign element and keep on increasing their grip on the neighborhood where the police are forbidden to go...

[originalpckelly]

7. Is there anything that Israel could do that would be wrong...

that you would condemn?

[pelsar]

9. you would need a larger hard drive...

my list is incredibly long....buts its based on real world solutions with real world limitations....not niave, dreams and fanatasies.....

[magellan]

10. And those real world solutions are working so well

:eyes:

[pelsar]

11. care to discuss real options....

based on the realities, the cultures, geopolitical politics....?

[magellan]

12. Yeah

Israel and the US need to stand up like the civilized nations they supposedly are and stop behaving like arrogant wankers who don't give a flying rat's about anything except their own selfish interests.

Just for starters, Israel could cede Chebaa farms back to Lebanon. That's where most of the border skirmishes took place between 2000 and this year, and for good reason.

[pelsar]

13. now dont go away....

start with the sheba farms:
taken from syria in 67....when israel pulled back in 2000 the UN sanctioned the border with the agreement of Syria, Lebanon and Israel.

so who is it that disagrees?...Hizballa...so they have the authority to direct Lebanons foreign policy and not the lebanese govt?

[magellan]

14. No. The UN determined that Chebaa farms belonged to Syria

Syria says it belongs to Lebanon.

[pelsar]

15. read.....

the Security Council issued UN Resolution 520 that reaffirmed "Lebanon's determination to ensure the withdrawal of all non-Lebanese forces from Lebanon" and called "again for the strict respect for Lebanon's sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and political independence under the sole and exclusive authority of the Lebanese Government through the Lebanese Army throughout Lebanon". This resolution did not mention the Shebaa Farms because they were part of the Syrian territories addressed by Resolutions 242 and 338 pertaining to the Syrian Golan Heights.


In October 1991, and with the end of the Gulf War, all the Arab countries, as well as Lebanon and Israel participated in the Madrid Conference under American-Russian sponsorship. Lebanon, by then entirely occupied by Syria under the Taef umbrella, stated that it was not concerned with Resolutions 242 and 338, focusing instead on Resolutions 425 and 426 and demanding a return to a commitment to the Armistice Agreement signed with Israel in 1949. At that time, neither Israel nor Syria, nor any Arab country for that matter mentioned the Shebaa Farms as occupied Lebanese territory. Both Syria and Lebanon adopted the same position in their negotiations with Israel that were held in the United States between 1994 and 1996 during President Clinton's reign and under his administration's sponsorship. Nowhere do the proceedings, reports, and minutes from these negotiations mention the Shebaa Farms, and again Lebanon demanded the implementation of the Armistice Agreement between Lebanon and Israel.

As it turns out and since Israel occupied the Golan in 1967 and later annexed it, and since the international observers assumed their mission of watching over the border between Israel and Syria, the Shebaa Farms were consistently considered by the international community as Syrian land. All international maps showed the Farms inside Syrian territory now occupied by Israel.



the best part:

If the Syrian regime indeed wanted to help recover the Shebaa Farms and rid it of the Israeli occupation, it would have presented official documentation to the UN in which it recognized Lebanon's sovereignty over the Farms. The UN in turn would guarantee the return of the Farms to Lebanon without firing a single bullet.

http://www.lgic.org/english/eng-mainfaq-Shebaa.htm

Given the "back and forth history of the farms..when israel withdrew...israel received the UNs blessing in that its withdrawl was complete, which was the right thing to do.....and in terms of intl borders the UN is the one to listen to...or are suggesting that the UN doesnt have any say here?

[magellan]

16. The withdrawal blessing didn't touch upon Chebaa farms

...which, as I said and you point out above, is considered part of former Israel-occupied "Syrian" territory.

I understand there's a great deal of ongoing contention over just where the old Syrian/Lebanese border lies in that area. But the Syrians have said it's Lebanon's, and it remains a flashpoint between Hezbollah and Israel. Clearly it was not Israel's to begin with...so why not cede it back to Lebanon in the interest of removing one of Hezbollah's main rallying issues?

[pelsar]

17. you didnt read the article....did you?

Syria has never formally conceded the farms....thats the UNs contention...all they have to do is "fill out the proper forms".....and thats it

but you skipped over the question....are you saying the UN has no say here?....its not a flash point between hizballa and israel its between the UN and Hizballa.

More so i see you agree that Hizballa should run Lebanese foreign policy.....interesting viewpoint, letting a "militia" take over a countries foreign policy. (so your pro minuteman guarding the mexican/US border?)

[magellan]

18. Uh...right

Your suggestion that I support Hezbollah running things is a BS distraction tactic and won't work with me.

FYI the UN doesn't create borders; it advises in disputes. And as things were left, the Chebaa farms area of the Golan Heights is supposed to be worked out in a peace deal. It's clear the Lebanese let themselves be played by Syria where Chebaa is concerned, and Syria are still hamstringing things. But I'll suggest again that if Israel were clever it would defuse one of Hezbollah's main rationales for continued hostility as a proxy of Syria by ceding Chebaa farms in a direct agreement with the Lebanese gov't. This is precisely the sort of help the newly formed Lebanese gov't could have used in its efforts to disarm Hezbollah...Indeed, it was part of Siniora's ceasefire plan last week.

I'd love to stay and chat with you but it's time for bed, and besides, I can see where this is going, and it isn't towards the light. Let me just conclude by thanking you for illustrating why things are and will remain such a godawful mess in that part of the world.

[Laotra]

19. Who should run Lebanese foreign policy?

I suggest the Lebanese people should, certainly not US or UN.

The problem is that, under Taif, Christians got about 50% of the seats, Sunni 20%, Shia 20% and the 10% for the Druzi. That means Shia are hugely underrepresented, as the demographic estimates (last census from 1934 badly outdated) are currently: Shia 40-45%, Christians 30-40%, Sunni 20%, Druzi and the rest 10%. The democratic legitimacy of the Cedar revolution is thus highly questionable.

Hezbollah agreed to the underrepresentation against the promise that their militia could keep their arms, to guard the southern border against Israel as a semi-official military force (which naturally gives political influence inside Lebanon to balance their parliamentary underrepresentation). Syria agreed as it wants armed Hizbollah militia as a chip in negotiations to get Golan back.

[Selatius]

20. I would say Taif took away power from the Christians

Before the civil war, Christians had a constitutionally guaranteed majority in the parliament, but because Christians are no longer a majority now, the Lebanese National Movement, made up of secular leftist groups and various Muslim groups, demanded the Maronite Christians cede power by taking a new census and not use the old one from 1932. They refused the LNM's demand, and that laid the groundwork for the civil war. I believe Lebanon operates on a newer census now, not the 1932 one. Otherwise, they'd still be in civil war.

[Laotra]

21. AFAIK

(based on wikipedia and commentary from SyriaComment and Juan Cole) there's no new census, Taif just tweaked a little bit the old powersharing deal.