Why are good looking women not considered smart?

[sistersofmercy]

And when they are smart, why are they called bitches? I don't get it. Most men I know complain about golddiggers and superficiality and when they come face to face with a women who can either a) keep up with them in a debate or b) out debate them and talk over their heads, why are these women labelled bitches?
Forget the Israeli/Hizbollah thing for a moment, they're both wrong and the Lebanese civilians who are poor, immobile and helpless in the situation are the victims. Believe me, understand the argument from all sides involved. I understand the history fully. Read Pity the Nation by Robert Frisk, it's very enlightening. Israel has a right to exist even though I don't agree with the foundations or the implementation in the name of expansionism. I understand the purpose and defense doesn't fly with me.

Back to the question, why if a good looking woman can easily converse about literature, arts and politics is she considered an uppity bitch? Just curious.

[babylonsister]

1. You can be smart and superficial. You're just not smart about

the right things.

[sistersofmercy]

7. Excuse me

What is that supposed to mean? Not smart about "the right things?" Please don't presume anything because I'm asking a specific question. Honestly it wasn't really meant for women to respond to.

[babylonsister]

11. Mea culpa, sister! This is your thread and

I shouldn't have interfered. I just meant that superficial women might, by nature, worry about the wrong things.

I read your OP and wondered how old you are. I was 'all that' 25 years ago; single, living in Boston, going to and working at a college and meeting people, and then I got married. I now live in the suburbs of Texas with a totally different lifestyle.

Sorry. Carry on.

[hang a left]

2. I am hot

and smart and a bitch

[amitten]

3. I consider myself very smart.

:-)

[mmonk]

4. Some people feel threatened or inadequate

around good looking people I guess.

[mark414]

5. it is a threat to male dominance and superiority

however, any smart, good looking woman who wants to converse about literature, arts, and politics with me, come on over...EVEN if you can out debate me and talk over my head...

[sistersofmercy]

13. Cheers

:toast:

[madmusic]

24. Or maybe...

Fear that pursuing might be interpreted as stalking. Or flirting might be sexual harassment. Or challenging might be misogynist.

Or maybe a threat to male dominance and superiority.

[JI7]

6. i'm not sure how many guys are like this, but some of them are

they usually start attacking the woman as a bitch or similar when the woman beats them on something. the best example being a debate as you mention.

i'm guessing most of them are conservative men.

[sistersofmercy]

9. Oh conservative men love my looks but as soon as i open my mouth

forget it. They like my conversation abilities only to a certain point. For the record in public I have great manners and know the boundaries.

[kineneb]

14. they are not looking for "smart"

they are looking for "obedient" Stepford women. Smart women scare them. I never worried about it. They usually wind up being shallow, boring people.




(I always figured they would never wear historic costumes with tights, so I pay them no mind. And yes, Hubby wears tights with his Elizabethan court costume. It is a serious qualifier, to me.)

[Warpy]

23. Long ago, I knew a total creep with money

Oh, don't worry, I knew him through business and I terrified him, kept him away quite nicely.

However, I remember the type of personal ad he used to place. He wanted a woman who was intelligent enough to know what he was talking about but he wanted her to hang on his every word and not say any of her own.

For the record, he spend most of his time in bed (alone) looking at himself on a mylar ceiling.

Maybe that clears a part of it up. She's only a bitch if she decides to add something to his monologue.

[longship]

8. Bad training.

Men who are like that just don't know what to say or how to act so they fall back on cultural anachronisms and say and do stupid shit. I was brought up with two sisters (one, my twin) who made sure that their brother was going to grow up respecting women as equals (or maybe even a little more than equal).

Maybe we can do a Ceasar Millan type deal where we can introduce some of these asshole guys to "the pack" so that they can learn, just like Millan's dogs do. I don't know if my beautiful and exceptionally intelligent sisters would be available to help. :-)

Peace.


Not an asshole guy.

[sistersofmercy]

12. Good for you

I do think it's really about respect and understanding I woman can be your intellectual equilavent.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

10. I recently realized... in every bad relationship I have had, I downplayed

myself.

I wasn't true, and I ended up with jerks.


life throws out painful lessons.

[sistersofmercy]

15. My most recent

smartest man I've ever known but complete fuckwad. I'm drawn to smart men, I need the stimulation. Why can't I find a super smart guy whose nice?

[Swamp Rat]

16. As long as she is furry, has a tail, and LOVES Brie cheese...

:9 I don't care if she is ten times smarter than I. :)

[cynatnite]

17. Because they're not interested in your brain...

and they don't want a woman who is smarter than them. They're the man.

I don't think I'm all that attractive and even with a little bit of brains I've got, I still get treated like I don't know anything but how to set dishes in a dishwasher.

Here's an example:

A few years ago I took my car to a shop to get some work done on it. Now, I don't know a damn thing about cars except where the gas goes. That's why I pay someone to work on it. I called to find out if they were finished and the dumbass on the phone asked me...I swear this happened...if I was sure I left it with them. :wtf: I about dropped the phone. I told him what kind of car I had and he swore they didn't have it.

I went over there and I told him that it was the car with the Kerry/Edwards sticker on it. Then he knew.

There are a few other examples, but basically...some men want ignorant woman so they can feel better about themselves.

[MrScorpio]

18. First of all, I love smart women... The smarter, the better

Looks aren't even an issue.

I can hold my own in a debate, if need be, and never need to refer to them as "bitches"

I save that term for mean and evil women as I would have the word "asshole" for the boys.

About the golddigging and superficiality and, I've never even worried my mind over that, This whole country is too fucking superficial, so both sexes are guilty.

So if a woman is pleasant to the eye, has a good head on her shoulders AND is strong and determined, I see all of that as a good thing.

And that's just the kind of woman that I want on my side!

Power to the Uppity Women, baby!

[SammyBlue]

19. Two words: Trophy Attitude.

Good looking women have the stereotype of being able to land a rich, powerful man not on her intellect, but her waist, hip and bust size.

Good looking women, as the stereotype, don't try to develop brains simply because they have a physical asset they can fall back on. It's like the old male chauvinist attitude: Men go to college for the MBA, women go for the MRS.

It's a harmful stereotype, but it's expanded on by the media, the television, hollywood and the fashion industry.

Raise your daughter to be intelligent. If I could find a woman who's beautiful (by my standards and in my eyes), worldly, intelligent, well spoken, well verse in the arts and will let me do the cooking, I'd marry her immediately.

Because if the most beautiful woman in the world is an idiot, I am not interested. PERIOD. . .but I'm starting a PhD in 18 months.

[lostinacause]

20. I generally find that more attractive women are

less educated and more shallow.

Personally, I think that clothing is a bigger indicator of intelligence (or lack there of). Females who feel they have to debase themselves to wearing close to nothing seem to generally lack the purpose to be anything but a piece of "meat".

The answer to your question, in my opinion, is that most people whose main purpose is to find an attractive mate realize that the woman is too smart for them and do a one-eighty. When people talk to less attractive women they generally don't form the same expectations or are more inclined to look beyond looks. Also, people with strong opinions, especially regarding politics, are more likely to alienate others adding to what I have already mentioned.

For what it’s worth, I judge on intelligence in the same way that others judge on looks.

[JVS]

21. Since when has debating someone been ingratiating behavior?

When I want to make friends, I generally don't pick a fight.

[madmusic]

22. Good looking women can be smart...

And often are. And that doesn't make them bitches at all.

[hopeisaplace]

25. Ok. Here I go., lol...

well, it's not that ALL men REALLY consider the "hot smart babe" an uppity bitch...it's that
those who do, are too busy eye-balling her, forget to listen to what she is saying,
and therefore desperately need the "she's just an uppity bitch defense" talking point.:evilgrin: :P :rofl:


edit: typo

[Hekate]

33. >snrk< I was going to say men start thinking with their "mini-me"...

...which diverts blood from their own brain, which makes them a little dumber, which makes whatever a smart woman says seem threatening, somehow. LOL

But that would have been rude. Maybe you said it better.

DU has a lot of fun smart men, but people really do need to be able to get to know each other in person eventually.

Love to all you kids, and does this ever make me glad to be out of the anxiety-laden dating game. And SO grateful for Mister Hekate's many fine qualities. :hi:

Hekate

[hopeisaplace]

34. lol, hi there..this thread is BEGGING for these lyrics:

QUEEN BEE, Barbra Streisand Lyrics


The black, black widow is sittin' in the middle of the web, it's the fly she
seeks.
You may be her lover but you never will recover, 'cause she ain't had a bite
for weeks.
You think your the same, 'cause you got the same name, but the widow has a
mobile home.
Remember what I told you, she got eight arms to hold you, and she's never gonna
let your roam.
She'll tuck in your head, then she'll wrap you as a midnight snack.
So if you see a spider, don't you sidle up beside her
Why'd you think the widow's wearin' black?

Queen bee, baby
Pray that you may be left on your own, uh huh
Nothin' she'll give you, gonna outlive you
But the queen bee's never gonna be alone.
Long before Atlantis there has been a praying mantis and you knows why he's on
his knees.
He may have religion but he's just a sittin' pigeon if a woman even stars to
tease.
He won't even quibble if she has a little nibble on his neck, what a way to
go.
And now you done and torn it!
You been messin' with a hornet, she's a blue-blooded wasp, you know.
And just as you do it, she'll inject you with a fluid that you ain't even got
but none.
You're the meat on the plate, not even first rate, she's gonna feed you to her
seventh son.
The queen bee's story, is the power and the glory, of the women who have ruled
alone.
Little Nefertiti used to consummate a treaty in the bed as much as on the
throne.
Everyone was urgin' Queen Elizabeth the Virgin, just to try a man but she'd
refuse.
Queen Isabella was the one who said this fella named Columbus ought to take a
cruise.
Didn't Cleopatra try to gratify and satisfy the men she held within the grasp?
The pyramids where shakin' from the peace that she was makin' but she ended
with a stupid asp.

The Queen Bee, no way, and even tho' they think they're the kings (egotistical
things)
Who are they foolin'? playin' at rulin', it's the Queen behind the scene who
pulls the strings.

So, in conclusion, it's an optical illusion, if you think that we're the weaker
race.
Men got the muscle, but the ladies got the hustle, and the truth is staring in
your face.
The mother bear stalks, and the queen of the hawks, is the one who brings home
the bread.
The lion that is regal, and the bald headed eagle, need a woman just to keep
them fed.
But come the evenin', we're like Adam and his Eve, inside the garden. Hear the
serpent's sound?
It's so frustratin', when you're really into matin', and there ain't a lovin'
man around.

Whoever wrote this story
Throw out the glory
Bring in the men (give me them and I'll swing)
Write me a sequel
Give me an equal
And I'll give that man
I'm gonna give that lovin' man
I said I'm gonna give that lovin' man
I'm gonna give him that lovin' sting! Zap!


(My 6 year old son loves this song!, mommy sings it to him, lol)

[SeattleGirl]

26. I think that it come down to the other person feeling threatened.

And it's not always men who feel that way. Some woman can feel that way too, and I do think that, regardless of gender, those who would call smart/knowledgeable women bitches or any other derougatory name do so because they feel threatened by that woman.

Women who are smart and not afraid to show it also blow the long-standing societal dictate that women are supposed to be less smart than men, or if they ARE as smart, or smarter, they are supposed to pretend they are not smart. They are supposed to sit adoringly at the man's feet, gazing in awe at him as he imparts his words of wisdom, even if there is no wisdom there.

And don't even get me started on women who are also comfortable with their sexuality. Then you get into the whole virgin/whore thing, which just adds another whole layer of crap to the entire thing.

[Lorien]

36. I think that about sums it up

Personally I've pretty much thrown in the towel on dating for the reasons you've outlined. I look like the stereotypical busty blonde bimbo, but I come from a family of Ph.Ds and have always been an intellectually curious person. The package has never jived with the personality. I fought it for a while; dyed my hair brown or red, wore business attire when I didn't always need to...but eventually I became comfortable enough with myself to dress in whatever I damn well pleased and left the hair color alone. I don't enjoy being treated like a complete moron by strangers, but it is always a little amusing to watch their perceptions alter after a few conversations (most of the time, but certainly not always; some stubbornly cling to their preconceptions and prejudices).

No matter what the exterior package is, there will be some stereotype associated with it. I went through a very awkward stage in my earlier teens and that was entirely unpleasant, more so than what came later. Attractive or unattractive, all intelligent women are "less than the ideal" to a large portion of the men in most societies. That shouldn't stop anyone from continuing to develop themselves intellectually, but sadly whether or not you reveal your intellect to the rest of the world depends entirely on what you want. I've noticed that even in corporate setting many highly intelligent women are passed over for promotions because they are simply too intimidating to others.

[everythingsxen]

27. Well..

I don't consider good looking women who can converse about literature, arts and politics to be "uppity bitches"; I do find them to be an anomaly though.

I think this is due mostly to the fact that very attractive women tend to get fawned over and are given a "free pass" more often than less attractive women. The same thing happens with "jocks". In fact I think the beautiful = dumb scenario happens across gender lines, just different epithets are applied. For example a male who is good looking but easily converses (a sin to begin with) about literature, arts and politics is pretty much automatically considered gay.

[Book Lover]

28. Because those of us who are not good looking know how far the looks go

and how easy it is to replace the smarts with the looks to get ahead. I am not saying that we think all beautiful women do it (I certainly don't! I work daily with living proof of otherwise), just that we know how much easier it is when you are good looking.

And any time a smart woman makes her intelligence known in a debate, attractive or not, via a snappy comeback or sharp retort, the ego on the other side of the retort becomes injured and the sullen one (male or female) lashes out with "Bitch!" I think you have to chalk that one up to human nature.

I know you were asking for the men's POV, but I think the women's is just as meaningful.

[TahitiNut]

29. Define "good looking" and "smart"

I've met some otherwise decently-educated women who looked (and smelled) like they were an ad for every 'fashionable' make-up, perfume, jewelry, boob-enhancer, high-heeled, and hair product on the planet. By many (probably most) criteria, they were regarded as "good looking" and "smart" but I regarded them as Let's-Go-To-The-Mall-rats merely a bit older who used their practice regurgitating commerical spiel in going to school and regurgitating the text. But I'd neveer call them "bitches" - an epithet I reserve for the extremes of lounge-lizards, no matter the habitat.

Just for a reality check, I regard Jennifer Granholm as at the upper boundary of such nonsense while still remaining "good looking" by my tastes. I'd regard her as better looking and smarter if she'd tone down the make-up (lipstick in particular). For another example, I've always regarded Marilyn Monroe, for example, as somewhat "Yechh!" ... but fairly smart.

I don't regard men who act like such ad-spokesmodels as "smart" either ... but I'm really no judge whatsoever of what constitutes "good looking" for men.

[Hosnon]

30. I think it is because an attractive female spends more of her time on

"upkeep" and males. She has plenty of things to fill her time with other than studies. Therefore, we probably believe attractive women, as a group, tend to spend less time on "smarts."

That's my opinion.

[Lorien]

38. There are millions of unattractive women who spend hours on their

appearance, and thousands of natural beauties who spend no more time on grooming than the average man.

[manic expression]

31. Prejudice n/t

[BlooInBloo]

32. My default for *everyone* is that they're stupid...

... well, Americans at any rate...

My conjectural *reason* for their (presumed) stupidity varies - sometimes by group. In the case of pretty girls, it's usually what could be called The Law of Conservation of Time. There are only 24 hours in the day. A girl who spends 14 of those hours doing all of the stuff it takes to look smmmmmmoooookkkkin doesn't have any time left to do things like read, or learn how to utter sentences beyond "yah, i know, right?". At least she looks smokin' though - it's good for a person to achieve their goals.

Again, conjectural reasons for the presumed stupidity of other groups of people will vary.

It would never occur to me in a jillion years to consider an intelligent, articulate, well-read hottie an uppity bitch. Well, not ipso facto an uppity bitch. I suppose if she was *also* an uppity bitch, then I'd have to consider her an uppity bitch... But without that last supposition, an intelligent hottie is about the most valuable thing I can easily imagine - I have trouble coming up with an explanation of why lots of guys seem to treat intelligent hotties so poorly.

[readmoreoften]

35. NO women are considered smart.

I've been on both sides of the fence as far as looks go. No women are considered smart. Good looking women just think that people think they're dumb because people focus on their looks. When you're homely, no one thinks you're suddenly brillant. Everyone just stops paying attention to you *period*

[leftofthedial]

37. I don't think your premise is true

It certainly isn't in my experience

[RDU Socialist]

39. i've never considered being a well read, intelligent, cultured woman

to be a bitch. I usually reserve that term for women who are unnecessarily mean or ignorant (in my experience, those two things seem to go together). Men who are like that I use the term "dickhead".

[heidler1]

40. Nearly everyone agrees that my wife is very smart . She had a

98+ average in all subjects in high school. I'm treated similarly, but had no where near her grades. We seldom discuss art, movies, or books that we've seen or read. I've written seven unpublished books and we seldom discuss them either. I got her to reluctantly check the spelling of my writing and her main comment was "You don't know how to write a complete sentence or your spelling is terrible."
We both have computers.

After I got spell check and grammar check on my computer she was amazed at how I'd improved. We do discuss people that we know a lot. She's seventy six and I'll be eighty one this month. We've been married fifty five years. She worked her way up from part time to president of a company in L.A. I had good jobs too. Like IBM Field engineering and finally at 52 quit that and went into real estate and general contracting.

We met at a dance and were dancing together when the band took their midnight break, I said, "I'm going out to my car and have a drink."
She asked, "can I go along."
I said, "Sure."
She agreed to let me take her home that night, but we did a lot of kissing first.
This happened in her home town where I'd got a job and moved there while she was away at college. The day we got married we moved to California.

[Ignoramus]

41. I don't see what you describe

for the most part.

I'm male. I haven't seen anyone appearing to think a woman is a bitch because she is smart or outspoken. I do see women getting talked over, or ignored during conversations, a lot.

Usually, "bitch" seems to refer to a particular type of behavior. It's different than "asshole", but refers to a type of inconsiderate aggression, similar to what "asshole" refers to.

My girlfriend accuses women of being bitches, a lot... and I often think the accusation is unfair.

As for good looking women not being considered smart, I think that might occur in the case where a guy is thinking about a girl as a sex object, and so doesn't pay attention to if she is smart or not.

Then there is the thing about dumb being sexy, which seems to go for men and women both. A certain type of flirtation in both directions involves acting dumb. It's a variation on what is cute maybe.

[mykpart]

42. Don't worry so much.

At least you're not ugly and stupid!

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

43. Here is the way I see

I have met women in the past that I'm attractive to due to physical appearance (not the barbie doll look either) who almost immediately tell me how smart they are and how confident they are, I think to myself next please. It's got nothing with me being intimidated by them any way shape or form. It's more of a ok, I see a major character flaw because she's telling me how smart she is right from the get go, please let me find out on my own. On the confident comment, if she was a confident person she wouldn't need to tell me this, that id a sign of person without confidences and I just don't like to be BSed. What I just described is my definition of an overbearing bitch. Take the I'm smart and confident part that comes off as overbearing out of the equation, if these women didn't have this attitude I would give a shot with them.