Why are so many lefties aligning with the Israeli Right?

[Beelzebud]

The people in charge of Israel are RIGHT WINGERS NO DIFFERENT THAN BUSH.

If you are against the war in Iraq, then why the fuck do you support the ILLEGAL invasion of Lebanon?

[Warren Stupidity]

1. On here it is only a handfull. nt

[everythingsxen]

2. Yep a small minority who thinks the Jews don't deserve extermination

I am sure we will all be gone soon and and you can proudly proclaim how the world is now safe from the terrors of ZOG.

[Wonk]

3. Nice strawman :/

[everythingsxen]

5. OH no! Not the standard reply of "STRAWMAN!!1111"

Gosh, so inspired. So original.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Meshuga]

16. This question is soooo stupid

It's just as bad as someone asking you "Why do you support terrorists?" in return.

It's ridiculous!

[everythingsxen]

19. According to Wonk's above post, isn't this a Strawman?

However, to answer, I believe Israel has a right to defend itself from terror attacks.

Also, I am not a "liberal" or a "democrat" I never have been. I am a centrist and an independent. I don't need demagogues to issue me talking points so I can decide how I feel about an issue.

[Beelzebud]

37. Interesting. You're not a liberal or Democrat. That sums it up.

[opiate69]

55. My thoughts exactly, beelzebud.

[KAZ]

56. So, "liberal" "democrat"s "need demagogues ...

...to issue...talking points". That's nice to know. May I suggest an alternate board.

[Beelzebud]

57. Exatly. True colors revealed for all to see. NOT A DEMOCRAT OR LIBERAL

[everythingsxen]

64. "True colors revealed for all to see. NOT A DEMOCRAT OR LIBERAL"

OMG you caught me!!!!

Except.. wait a minute... I seem to remember... a long time ago... like, hrrrm 2002 I think it was, when I joined. I seem to remember saying then that I was a centrist and at the time I was a Libertarian, but then left that party. So let's see my position has never changed.

DU just moved significanly farther to the Left. So far that it's now fashionable to hurrah the murder of Israeli civilians and cheer for the murder of innocent Jewish Americans.

I however have always been the same.

[Beelzebud]

66. Who's cheering for death? Not me....

Fuck you for suggesting that.

[davidinalameda]

79. it's not a question of moving to the left

I consider myself a leftist and as a leftist, I support a country protecting its people


that's one of the basic duties that a government has-guarantee the safety of its people against those who would harm them

it's a question of moving to the gutter

[Wonk]

12. Ok, since you apparently don't seem to know why it's fallacious logic

I'll humor you.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

[everythingsxen]

20. Technically I was being facetious in my reply,

but there is only a :sarcasm: tag, not a :facetious: tag.

[leftchick]

23. hey! stop making sense!

:crazy:

[KAZ]

18. Yeppers. They get the bulk rate. Throw em out like

candy at a parade.

Not that they'll listen, but most folks here at DU are NOT AGAINST THE JEWS! We're against the actions of their current government. Just like I'm against the actions of our current government. Seems pretty simple.

[Clark2008]

39. Bingo.

Even my Jewish husband is against the government of Israel's actions in this.

And he's hardly anti-Semitic.

[Karenca]

75. Me too...

I'm Jewish,
and against the Israeli gov't. actions.

[GAPeace]

4. Case in point to the topic poster's message n/t

[Beelzebud]

6. Answer my question. Why do you support the Israeli Right Wing?

No fucking strawmen. Answer the damn question.

Why are YOU aligning with right wingers?

You might as well be cheerleading our illegal Irai invasion.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. A small handfull who are nasty liars.

Where have I or anyone here said that the Jews deserve extermination? Please provide links.

And you can leave anytime. The door is open.

[jonnyblitz]

13. that was truly pathetic.

considering how many of you dehumanize the arabs and could care less about their fate, you think it is just fine and dandy to bulldoze their homes, steal their land, and kill them off. NICE PEOPLE! :puke:

you have lots of nerve whining about extermination since that is what you are basically supporting.

[William769]

33. And do you support strapping on bombs

And the killing of civillians, NOT military! :eyes:

[jonnyblitz]

40. man ,your post makes absolutely no sense in regards

to REALITY. you seriously need to turn off FOX news and educate yourself. thank god you pro israel loons are a minority on here. jesus christ. :crazy:

I think i will take a break from talking to the clueless tonight. see ya.

[William769]

50. Speaking of clueless...

[everythingsxen]

35. Really?

I support extermination? Who fucking knew it?

So if I support Israel's big bad extermination plan, why aren't they actually exterminating people?

Oh no! Not logic!!! Run back to the Hezbollah website and read up on the counter-attack for that.

[jonnyblitz]

44. self delete.

waste of time.

[breakaleg]

15. what? so if we disagree with Israel's invasion of Lebanon we want

all Jews exterminated?

That's quite a leap.

[William769]

30. How right you are!

:hi:

[nebula]

72. You're absolutely right!

Israel wants to be the exterminatOR, not the exterminatEE.

They are doing an excellent job of it with the Lebanese.

[Crunchy Frog]

78. Yeah, the vast majority of DUers

want all the Jews to be exterminated.

And to think, some people worry that they'll get called anti-semitic if they question the actions of the Israeli government.:eyes:

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mass]

11. Right. There are a few on BOTH sides who do not seem to be able

to think before they post and who hold extreme reactions.

The vast majority is just upset at what is happening, but will react violently to extreme posts on one direction or the other.

We have a case of each type in this thread unfortunately.

[davidinalameda]

9. because we're against terrorism

Hezbollah is a terrorist group; a bunch of murderers that want nothing less than to wipe Israel off the map and establish an Islamic theocracy along the lines of Iran

Israel has every right to protect its citizens or do you think that Israel should just wait until Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the other murderers send more rockets across the border and more suicide bombers to blow up innocent Israelis

Simon Peres, who is one of those people currently in charge of Israel is certainly no right winger

[Warren Stupidity]

Terrorism - please define exactly what you mean by that. nt.

[jonnyblitz]

49. he was doing his George Bush imitation. nt

[Beelzebud]

14. The same thing was said of Iraq.

[mom cat]

21. Hezbolla was created in responce to the invasions by Israel. Is it

terrorist to defend oneself against invasion? I would join a resistance movement if my country was invaded. That is their right. Israel has the right to defend itself, but to go on a binge of destruction against ifs neighbors. Besides, the IDF soldiers were captured in southern Lebanon according to the first news accounts.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/stories/20060811005800600.htm


edited to add link.

[azurnoir]

22. Well the US and Israel say

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, but that's about it. As this thread states:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2429530

[davidinalameda]

80. what's your definition of a terrorist organization then

just curious

[azurnoir]

88. My definition

Is an organization whose goals are to create fear for the sake of intimidation or control, with no other objective(s). Hezbollah has more facets, arms, departments whatever you want to call them then just it's military: community service is a very large one, the general improvement of the lives of the people in south Lebanon also terror organizations are not generally part of legitimate governments.

[davidinalameda]

95. community service and governing

never mind the fact that they still launch rocket attacks into Israel; one of their main goals is to eliminate the state of Israel

but since they do "community service", it makes their crimes against the people of Israel okay

interesting

[azurnoir]

103. No I didn't say

that it makes crimes against Israel OK, where do you see that? It does seem to me however that many of the pro-Israel people have been using the "keep any opposition so busy defending it self against extreme and frequently untrue remarks that the point gets lost" it has become comparible to the repuke "anyone who doesn't support our war against terror in Iraq is a traitor" at least as a tactic.

[jonnyblitz]

47. you are against terrorism yet you support the IDF?Israel???

:rofl: :rofl:

War is Peace! :patriot:

[davidinalameda]

76. of course I support Israel and their right to exist

[savemefromdumbya]

87. OK but that's as far as it goes

what happens next is that syria will be involved and then the US will be involded you know how they love wars. Peres is no left winger

[davidinalameda]

96. Syria is already involved my dear

Syria and Iran are both involved as supporters of Hezbollah

I for one would not mind seeing the dictatorship in Syria or the theocrats in Iran enter the dustbins of history

they're anti-freedom; and any liberal/leftist/progressive should be in favor of governments that promote freedom for their people

[manic expression]

101. Like the IDF?

The group that murdered 60 innocent people? The group that shelled a family on a beach? The group that has oppressed entire peoples for decades? The group that has stolen land? The group which has consistently murdered innocent people?

Those terrorists? Israel's been wiping people off the map since before its inception and it hasn't stopped.

If you think Israel is "protecting" anything you are deranged, Israel is attacking and punishing an entire nation as well as oppressing them and asserting Israel's dominance. ISRAEL set the conditions which led to this; ISRAEL escalated the situation; Israel has killed countless innocents while the responses have been feeble in comparison.

No RW in Israel? Give me a break.

[mike_c]

10. I don't think the real American left, at least the ones paying attention..

...have supported Israel's actions for some time. I certainly haven't. I think it's ironic that during the peace marches three years ago so many here decried International ANSWER's inclusion of speakers condemning Irael's treatment of Palestinians in those same rallies. THAT is the real American left, IMO-- the folks who HAVE been paying attention to the crimes committed while American foreign policy not only turns a blind eye, but aids and abetts the oppressors.

[Truthiness Inspector]

17. Why are some pacifists aligning with Hezbollah? n/t

[Clark2008]

60. Who here is aligning with Hezbollah?

:shrug:

[Truthiness Inspector]

69. Obviously some here are

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1787368

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1788593

[manic expression]

102. Nice try

but your distraction won't work. When Israel invades a country, do the people not have a right to respond? When Israel blows up 60 innocent people, should those who are targeted just let it go? Give me a break and get some perspective.

[Meshuga]

24. Who here is aligned with Israel's right?

Nobody I have seen! To you, is support for Israel considered being aligned with the right?

I support Israel and her right to defend her citizens. I don't agree with every decision by the government but I support Israel. Like I support America and detest the current administration.

FYI: Israel is the most left-wing state in the entire Middle-Eastern region with women's rights, gay rights, labor rights, true multiparty democracy and a vigorous free press.

[raggedcompany]

26. Ooh, ooh! I am!! I am!! I just LOVE killling babies!!!

[Meshuga]

31. ???

:crazy:

[JVS]

27. I don't like the invasion, but in the battle between the Israeli right...

and the Hizbollah right wing in Lebanon, I really couldn't see myself opposing the Israeli government if I were there and push came to shove.

[Pepper32]

28. I wonder the same thing

:sigh:

[Truthiness Inspector]

52. Well

John Kerry just made some very powerful statements, calling Hezbollah what it is, a terrorist group who attacked Israel, and he supported Israel. I see you have a pic of Mr. and Mrs. Edwards in your signature.

What is John Edwards' take on this? I did a quick search and couldn't find it. As Senator Kerry's former running mate, I wouldn't imagine it would be too different.

[bbinacan]

29. I don't see it as left or right

I see it as a group of people that want to wipe out another group of people. Think about that for a moment. Who's right? I'll go with the Israelis. Fuck hezbollah. Bunch of pricks who use INNOCENTS as human shields.

[msmcghee]

32. I fully support Israel in this situation. Here's why.

It's because I am a liberal and a progressive - and I therefore am against military aggression by any state or armed group against another. I am especially opposed to any state or armed group who cynically attacks unarmed civilians to achieve their political aims.

There is only one group that satisfies that description. It is Hizbollah.

These principles are very important to me. I don't change my mind about these things just because, for whatever political reasons, my view happens to be shared by George Bush or Condoleeza Rice. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I do not share the absurd notion that you can determine which side is morally right or wrong in an armed conflict by counting the number of dead babies on on one side or the other. The moral right is the side that does not attack across the borders of another state - period. The moral wrong is that side that initiates armed aggression against the other - and is the actual cause of all those dead babies.

I know this does not conform to the popular far-left notion that Israel is the embodiment of everything evil in the world except for Bush, perhaps. But it does conform to my principle that military aggression to achieve national aims is immoral and should be condemned by all thinking moral persons.

Until someone can show me a damned good reason why I am wrong about this, this is where I will stay.

[MrSlayer]

38. Yes.

Almost to a tee my feelings.

[enuffs_enuffs]

43. Kick ass!

Burn the ambulances with victims inside!
Straif family cars full of fleeing villagers!
Use White Phosphorous and melt their fucking faces off!
Hit the targets that will TERRORIZE the populace and deny that's your intention!

:puke:

[msmcghee]

54. When a nation's citizens are attacked . .

. . across its borders with missiles intended to kill its civilians - that nation has the right and responsibility to destroy those missiles and those who are firing them.

There is zero credible evidence that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians. Until you have some of that - you have no point.

Do you think during the battle of Kosovo the Clinton told the USAF to intentionally bomb the Chinese embassy. In Desert Storm do you think our side knew that building was full of women and children? Even you could not hate our military that much. In war - lots of bad shit happens.

THAT'S WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO STRONGLY AND THOROUGHLY CONDEMN THOSE WHO START WARS.

Blaming Israel in this case encourages Hisbollah and makes it more likely that there will be many more dead babies on both sides before this is over. How can you be liberal and for peace and do that?

[SPKrazy]

73. You're Right

Israel is not in the wrong on the right to defend herself

they may have made some bad choices here, but what exactly are they supposed to do? Negotiate with terrorists?

That's worked so well in the past.

Hizbollah is dedicated to wiping Israel off the map.

Going after them is the only logical thing to do.

The folks here who can't see that and are saying that people who can see that are in league with B*, need some serious psychiatric help

[enuffs_enuffs]

93. Nice spin on that yo

I don't believe that the Israelis response was appropriate. That's it. I believe their doing more harm, long term, via indiscriminate destruction. Their actions go beyond self defense as an invasion of another sovereign is an act of aggression.

Actually, the Red Cross has already issued reports on how Hezbolla wasn't in the area of Qana and there were no rockets fired. Let me guess... the Red Cross is just a bunch of what? You fill in the blank. Since you've already labeled all evidence uncredible that is.

Yep, lots of bad shit does happen in war. Like targeting ambulances. But, we digress...

Hezbolla was seen as heros after the 1982 bull shit. Israel invaded, Hezbolla repelled... ala guerrilla warfare, and they gain legitimacy in the Lebanese peoples eyes. Not ours. Theirs. And so further escalating what was an already contentious situation. And furthering support for the people who are fighting the invaders... er, per you, self-defenders.

What ever the labels, this whole affair... in my eyes, will produce nothing good. Except if you just LIKE blood and carnage. For the sake of MORE blood and carnage.

[msmcghee]

97. You said,

"I don't believe that the Israelis response was appropriate. That's it. I believe their doing more harm, long term, via indiscriminate destruction. Their actions go beyond self defense as an invasion of another sovereign is an act of aggression."

That's your opinion. Spoken safely behind your keyboard in a large nation not surrounded by people who want to see you dead. It's up to Israel to decide, within the Geneva conventions, what response is appropriate. Israel has not broken those rules.

"Actually, the Red Cross has already issued reports on how Hezbolla wasn't in the area of Qana and there were no rockets fired. Let me guess... the Red Cross is just a bunch of what? You fill in the blank. Since you've already labeled all evidence uncredible that is."

Really? Link? I did see a second hand report that some Red Cross worker said something like that. The Red Cross does not comment publicly on the appropriateness of military actions. If they have a problem they contact the nation directly and privately. Otherwise they will be seen as taking sides and the accused side would probably decide those red crosses are just big cross-hairs.

"Hezbolla was seen as heroes after the 1982 bull shit. Israel invaded, Hezbolla repelled... ala guerrilla warfare, and they gain legitimacy in the Lebanese peoples eyes. Not ours. Theirs. And so further escalating what was an already contentious situation. And furthering support for the people who are fighting the invaders... er, per you, self-defenders."

The Shia hate Israel as does Iran. There are many Shia in S. Lebanon. This is really about Iran. Iran controls and finances Hezbollah and hopes to use this conflict (and Bush's stupidity) to eventually turn the ME into a greater Persian Empire. I don't think Israel is too worried about what those people think of her.

"What ever the labels, this whole affair... in my eyes, will produce nothing good. Except if you just LIKE blood and carnage. For the sake of MORE blood and carnage."

I very glad my father and his generation did not have that attitude about Hitler and Tojo. If he had we might not be here having this conversation.

[azurnoir]

58. Really?

I'm referring to this "There is only one group that satisfies that description. It is Hezbollah."
So can you tell me just how many unarmed civilians were killed by those oh so deadly Hezbollah rockets between 2000 and 7/11/06? A thousand, a hundred, try 8*, there were 23 deaths grand total from Hezbollah rockets in the time period I mentioned 15 IDF and 8 civilian. Do I condone this ,no, but the party that seems to be targeting civilians is Israel. And as far as the "hiding amongst civilians meme goes there is not much place in Lebanon where there are not civilians, no large wide open areas. Also it is believed that Hezbollah gains more civilians every time Israel bombs.

* my info came from a GD pro-Israel post Friday 7/28/06 I am having trouble pulling it out of the archives.

[msmcghee]

65. By going back to past atrocities . .

. . anything can be justified. In that case there would be no possibility of ever having any peace.

In this conflict - Hizbollah kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers that were breaking no international laws. When a patrol was sent to get them back Hizbollah killed 8 and injured several others - and begin firing up to 150 missiles a day into Israel. This was planned by Hizbollah. It was an armed aggression. They are in the wrong.

Why would you forgive them for this? If they had not done that there would be no dead babies today as a result on either side.

Why would you condemn Israel for trying to get their IDF fighters back and destroying the missiles that are being fired every day to kill Israeli citizens?

What possible liberal principles of peace and non-aggression could you apply to justify that position?

[azurnoir]

74. If there had been forgiveness

there would not be any dead babies either. Israel could have gotten their fighters back, if that was the objective, by negotiating Lebanon was willing Israel was not.. The current missile launches by Hezbollah are in response to Israel's bombing. And finally I never knew the war is peace argument or war for revenge to be a liberal principle, however negotiations and compromise are.

[msmcghee]

89. I'll try to answer your proposed solution.

Basically, you are suggesting that that if someone kidnaps two of your soldiers who were breaking no law - that the best way to prevent such aggression in the future is to forgive them and negotiate a ransom, pay them their blackmail, to get them back.

When I put myself in Israel's place that seems like a very foolish thing to do. Why would Hizbollah not go full time into the business of kidnapping Israelis - soldiers and citizens - to get whatever they want, which they have already stated is the destruction of the state of Israel?.

Do you really think that would make sense to the people of Israel who elect their leaders? Do you think that leader would last long in office?

As far as the sequence of bombing vs. missiles, I am confused. I thought that Israel was bombing suspected rocket launchers that were being used to fire missiles into Israel. Are you saying that Israel knew these launchers were there but decided that since two IDF were kidnapped and they couldn't get them back that they'd bomb some rocket launchers instead - and then since their rocket launchers that were sitting idle were being bombed anyway Hizbollah decided they might as well use them to fire some missiles into Israel?

That seems quite different from all accounts I have heard or read. I could be wrong. Or, maybe Israel used bombing first in some way to get their prisoners released - although I can't imagine that Israel would expect that to succeed. Could you send me a link to some account of this scenario?

War is peace? Yes, WWII was required to bring peace to the world after Germany and Japan initiated aggression against the allies. That's how the world works. There are assholes like Hitler and Tojo and there are nations who try to live peacefully and do not attack others unless attacked first. Certainly you must side with the latter.

War is revenge? I have seen no evidence that Israel is interested in revenge. Israel wants her IDF returned and wants to destroy missiles and missile launchers - both the mechanical kind and the terrorist kind.

Thanks for your non-emotional response. I'd much rather talk about ideas than personalities. I know we both want peace and no dead babies. We perhaps see different ways to get there. It's worth discussing these differences this way IMO.

[bbinacan]

61. Well said.n/t

[manic expression]

104. You're wrong

Hezbollah does not equal Lebanon. That is pretty obvious and you ignore that. Israel escalated the situation and attacked Lebanon in order to collectively punish the people.

Israel has acted belligerently and aggressively against others, it has oppressed, murdered and stolen from entire peoples. Israel recently committed mass murder, it regularly targets innocents and shows no respect for innocent life.

Apply your principles to reality:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1516268,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1982.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5065008.stm

There's far more if you want it. Actually, just look at this post of mine (this is but a taste):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2752280&mesg_id=2752645

Look at the ENTIRE HISTORY of the conflict! Israel has repeatedly stolen land, evicting and killing innocents, committing atrocities as they went. People will naturally fight against this sort of injustice with any means necessary. People will not stand idle as people are subjected to such base and disgusting wrongdoing. THAT is why people do what they can to oppose Israel's terrible aims.

Do you even know why Hezbollah was formed? Try knowing that before making incorrect assessments of the conflict.

[uppityperson]

34. some because they can see the choice of only 2 sides, black/white

in my opinion, not putting this position upon any particular poster, so if it doesn't fit you, it doesn't. Support Israel or support Hezbullah. Support a country that was made out of collective guilt at letting murder of that group happen or support a terrorist organization. AGAIN, if it doesn't fit you, don't defend as to why you are not like this since it is not a reflection on you, but on another poster.

Truly I do not understand either since it seems possible to be against Hezbullah's bombing, AND be against Israel's policies, AND support both the Lebanese people AND support the Jewish people.

[question everything]

36. Are you really interested in answer, or do you need to vent

your frustration and this is easier than fighting with the spouse, the boss, or kicking the dog?

You will have to define why you consider the current leaders of Israel "right wing." and the invasion of Lebanon is not illegal, it is the only way to remove the Hezbollah's missiles from attacking Israel.

If San Diego or Houston were shelled from Mexico, would you not expect your government to do what it takes to stop this shelling?

[ComerPerro]

41. I have been wondering that for weeks

[pinto]

42. A note about about DU, civility and respecting other members:

You've probably all seen these snips before, but we feel it's worth revisiting at times. Thanks.



Personal Attacks, Civility and Respect

The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules do not forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.


Content

Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[Beelzebud]

45. How does my post warrant that?

It just seems odd to me that so many liberal democrats would align themselves with the righ-wing Likud party of Israel...

It's even more valid because one of the first posters that responded, responded by saying "I am not a liberal, or a democrat".

Refer to post #19 to see for yourself.

"Also, I am not a "liberal" or a "democrat" I never have been. I am a centrist and an independent. I don't need demagogues to issue me talking points so I can decide how I feel about an issue."

That speaks for itself...

[pinto]

77. Nothing about your particular post. This was an open thread,

with some current responses, and a topic that has caused a lot of discussion here - some of it pretty heated. Don't take the placement personally, seriously. Thanks.

[Beelzebud]

82. Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate it.

[Swamp Rat]

48. I've always believed that we should be able to discuss any topic in GD,

but I really think these threads should go back to I/P because of the rampant name calling and generally uncivil behavior.

It's a shame. This NEEDS to be discussed in the open, here in GD, but even long time DUers are flinging around the 'anti-semite' accusation, even at Jewish members (maybe because they do not know who is and who is not Jewish)!

Nuts man. :eyes:

[Beelzebud]

46. Just so everyone knows where I stand. BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG.

Hizbollah is wrong
Israel is wrong

Lebanon suffers because of it....

[Swamp Rat]

51. ditto!

peace brah! :hi:

[Beelzebud]

53. Thanks!

*edited so I don't get burched.

[Swamp Rat]

59. no problemo

I am not sure it was directed just at you... then again, I have not read every post in this thread. At least he did not lock it. :shrug:

Believe me, I have been very upset about what is going on, as you may have seen, so it is hard sometimes to remain calm. Statements made by longtime DUers - friends - have gone way past just irritating. For the first time I had to put people on ignore... even a couple who I consider friends. That really sucks. :(

[maalak]

62. fyi... Kadima is currently the most powerful political party... NOT Likud

Kadima is a centrist party made up of former members of labour & likud who believed a compromise and a change in direction was needed, and Palestinian statehood is the only viable solution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadima

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_legislative_election%2C_2006#Results

granted it's having it's own problems with opposition from people remained in labour & likud, but your assumption that supporting Israeli automatically equates to supporting the "Israeli Right" is fundamentally flawed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. For The Record, Iraqis Weren't Blowing Themselves Up In My Local Shoprite.

I think that's probably a pretty huge distinction between the two, if you want to be realistic.

Having that said, I do think that Israel has gone wayyyyyy over the top this time and a cease fire should be immediate.

[Beelzebud]

67. Lebanese people weren't blowing themselves up either.

That was the Palestinians.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. Tis True. That's Mainly Hamas. But My Point Is The Frustration And

constant being on guard against terrorism while dealing with these suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks over the years has given them far more reason to be aggressive in retaliatory practices then what we could claim going into Iraq. I do agree with you, however, that the Lebanese people are not to blame for this and should be left the fuck alone.

[Beelzebud]

71. I understand that point completely. But this is about Lebanon.

The fact that Israel has endured so much bullshit does not give them a blank check to impose that kind of bullshit on innocent people.

[JackNewtown]

70. "Progressives" For The Occupation?

The Lebanon issue is murky, given Hezbollah's initial aggression, but it is interesting to see so many "progressives" argue in favor of a wealthy, powerful country stealing a poor, weak, "Third World" people's land. Weren't progressives once staunchly opposed to such things?

It is interesting how "the rules" go out the window for some, on all sides to be fair, when it comes to Israel. IMHO, no progressive should ever support colonialism and no progressive should justify suicide bombings in cafes or the firing of rockets with the aim of killing any Israeli it lands on.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

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[Beelzebud]

83. So should Israel have a blank check?

I'm not calling for the destruction of Israel, like neo-nazis and white supremesists do. I'm asking why so many here seem to not mind Isreal's destruction of Lebanon, which a majority of it's citizens never attacked Israel...

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maalak]

85. going to point this out again... Likud is NOT in power, Kadima is

seems like this was missed, but supporting Israel is NOT aligning one's self with the "Israeli right"...

[Minstrel Boy]

90. Yes, Kadima is the new "centre"

Funny how the centre keeps moving right.

[JackNewtown]

99. Supporting anything the right does in foreign/colonial affairs...

...is aligning oneself with the right. One is not legally required to support anything a particular foreign nation does. People choose to support the likes of Sharon and Shamir...A person can support Israel without slavishly supporting anything Tel Aviv does.

[JackNewtown]

98. Progressives tend to oppose colonialism

Of course, right-wingers see nothing wrong with a country stealing other's land...

[lonestarnot]

91. What in the hell are you talking about? I support Israel, it's people

have been overtaken by warmongers just like we have!

[ruggerson]

92. flamebait

n/t

[lonestarnot]

94. yes. And I am just going to stop responding to these.

[SammyBlue]

105. serious flamebait.

The OP's original question is loaded and dishonest.

[Lithos]

106. Locking

Come on guys, can we try something new for a change instead of the usual inflammatory accusations and extreme group attacks? This record is broken.

Lithos
DU Moderator