Is Castro a hero or a coward?

[cigsandcoffee]

I have to say that I pretty much agree with this fellow's opinion.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-opp01106aug01,0,7264085.story?coll=orl-opinion-headlines

MADRID -- Watching Cuban President-for-life Fidel Castro's visit to Argentina while on vacation here recently, I couldn't help thinking about one of the greatest ironies of our time: The 79-year-old leader is still regarded by many as an icon of courage, when in fact he is the biggest coward among Latin American leaders. Fidel Castro a coward? You bet! Consider:

Unlike every other Latin American and Caribbean leader, Castro has not had the guts to allow a free election in 47 years. Unlike all other Latin American and Caribbean leaders, Castro is the only leader in the region who doesn't have the courage to allow independent political parties. In his island, only one party -- his -- is allowed, and whoever doesn't join it is suspected of being an "anti-social" element. According to the latest Amnesty International report, there are nearly 70 prisoners of conscience in Cuban prisons, while Human Rights Watch puts the figure at 306.

Unlike all other regional leaders, Castro doesn't have the confidence to allow a single independent newspaper, radio or television station, or to allow people with different ideas to even appear on Cuban media. Cuba's laws specifically bar anybody in Cuba from publishing "non-authorized news" abroad, making those who do it liable to "enemy propaganda" charges that carry several years in prison.

Unlike all other leaders in the region, Castro is afraid of allowing most of his people greater access to the Internet. According to the World Bank's 2006 World Development Indicators, only 13 of every 1,000 Cubans have access to the Internet, compared with 267 of every 1,000 people in Chile, and 59 of every 1,000 people in Haiti. Regarding what Cubans can read on the Web, Reporters Without Borders, the Paris-based advocacy group, says Cuba's Internet censorship is worse than China's.

(more at link)

If the most important thing to you is Fidel being under the craw of the United States, then he's bound to have hero status. But by most measures of freedom, the man is an oppressive coward. Otherwise, why could he never stand up to free elections or allow an independent press?

[panader0]

1. You give a poll and preface it with a prejudice?

[cigsandcoffee]

3. Feel free to offer a counter prejudice, or make a poll you like better.

You're not at all obligated to like this one, or even read it.

[manic expression]

21. It's still dishonest and petty

much like the very opinion you posted.

[cigsandcoffee]

26. What's dishonest about it?

I'm sure not hiding my opinions, and you've got every opportunity to post a rebuttal.

In fact, why not explain how his not allowing an independent press and free elections is OK by you and why? You may convince some people who have an open mind, an would probably love to hear why freedoms are bad in the case of the Cuban people.

[manic expression]

59. You make a poll

and then post an opinion which is clearly biased. Polls are supposed to gauge people's opinions, and putting a very slanted and ridiculous op-ed above it is dishonest to that end. No one asked you to hide anything, but when you flaunt YOUR opinion in what is supposed to be something which asks a question in a neutral manner, you are petty and dishonest.

That you cannot grasp this underlines your entire mindset.

People have told you time and again that there ARE free elections. People have told you that journalists are not significantly hindered. Your assertions on this issue are patently and decidedly false, your rhetoric as asinine as it is wrong.

"You may convince some people who have an open mind, an would probably love to hear why freedoms are bad in the case of the Cuban people."

First, it is clear that you have no respect for having an open mind, as you posted a POLL with an OPINION attached to it, which IS dishonest and petty and completely contrary to the qualities of a mind that is remotely open. Second, the FACT is that there is no lack of "freedoms" in Cuba, people speak their minds, people hear American news without difficulty, people vote freely, people can run for office without any expense, people demonstrate in Havana against Castro (even though the rest of the country know that they are reactionary idiots).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Oh, and I am rebutting you.

[cigsandcoffee]

63. About time you came up with something....

...I think that BBC piece shows that there is some hope for Cuba, although pointing out that "the authorities didn't intervene" on a free and peaceful assembly of people sharing ideas does give a little bit of tip off as to the expectations.

Perhaps Castro felt that he couldn't lock up these people without causing international incident. Thus is the power of a free press - something that's denied to Cubans.

Or are you saying a fellow could start a legal paper there without government approval and oversight? If not, then you're an apologist for a dictator, and excusing an oppressive system for others that you'd never tolerate here. That's not being a Democrat, it's being a moron.

[manic expression]

69. What are you talking about?

I've had more than "something" this entire discussion. You've chosen to ignore it.

No, the BBC piece shows what Cuba is, what it is today.

"although pointing out that 'the authorities didn't intervene' on a free and peaceful assembly of people sharing ideas does give a little bit of tip off as to the expectations."

No, it is a bit of a tip off as to the expectations of the readers. It just says what happened, which is somewhat important in a news article.

"Perhaps Castro felt that he couldn't lock up these people without causing international incident. Thus is the power of a free press - something that's denied to Cubans."

Perhaps? Perhaps nothing. I don't need to use "perhaps" when I say that Cubans can assemble and protest peacefully. I don't need to say "perhaps" when I say that Cubans can speak their minds without fear (and that's from people who have been there).

Ever heard of this group? I doubt it.



"Or are you saying a fellow could start a legal paper there without government approval and oversight? If not, then you're an apologist for a dictator, and excusing an oppressive system for others that you'd never tolerate here. That's not being a Democrat, it's being a moron."

What are you talking about? You've shown absolutely NOTHING to suggest that Castro is a dictator, you've shown absolutely NOTHING to suggest that the Cuban government is significantly or unreasonably restrictive or oppressive. Do so and then you might have a starting point for an argument. Furthermore, the fact is that Cuba's system of government is open and fair and democratic, moreso than our own. It is the opposite of an "oppressive system". Anyone who has a shred of knowledge on the subject knows that much and would agree, but of course you don't.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. I certainly wouldn't call him a coward.

Horrible, sure, but coward is hardly the term I'd use for a revolutionary leader regardless of what he did when he seized control.

[cigsandcoffee]

4. He must be afraid of elections and the Press.

In fact, it seems like any ideas that aren't his scare the hell out of him.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. uh huh.

Is that a bit like saying that people who oppose the legalization of marijuana are cowards?

[cigsandcoffee]

8. You're comparing a free Press and open elections to pot?

I can't wait to hear this one.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. It's a perfectly valid comparison.

They're both non sequitors.

Now tell me how they're different.

[cigsandcoffee]

11. Well, a free press informs the public...

...of information and ideas, free elections allow leaders to emerge based on ideas and abilities, and pot gets you stoned.

I'm really missing where you've gone with this one. Your comparison is utterly bizarre.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

My comparison is utterly bizarre?

there's the pot calling the kettle black.

[cigsandcoffee]

17. Are you going to explain it or what?

Because honestly, I can't stretch my imagination to anywhere near the point it would take to compare pot to free elections and an independent press.

I highly doubt I'm the only one intrigued by your comparison. Please shine some light on it so a mundane guy like me might understand.

[manic expression]

There are free elections

the system in which candidates are nominated is better than that of the US'.

No, you're not mundane, you're just completely wrong.

[cigsandcoffee]

44. Really?

Who did Castro face in the last election?

[manic expression]

52. Get a clue

the Cuban system of elections is set in such a way that one candidate is nominated. That candidate then faces a yes or no vote. That's the way it works in Cuba on just about every level, including that of head of state.

[manic expression]

54. Here's a clue

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Here's another (specifically on Castro's election):

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ008.html

[cigsandcoffee]

57. Are you really suggesting that there was a chance Castro...

...would not be made President during every "election" he faced? Or are you just blowing smoke?

[manic expression]

60. What I am suggesting

is that he faced an open election, which is a FACT. I have shown an example of this, and it does corroborate and support my assertion that he has faced an open election.

What have you shown? Pathetic denial and delusion with no backing whatsoever.

[cigsandcoffee]

62. Your example was from members.allstream.net

Have you got anything with a little more meat regarding Castro's election challenges? I'm all ears, or all eyes, anyway.

[manic expression]

66. And?

What reason do you have to say that it is incorrect? None. What have you shown? Absolutely nothing.

I've heard this is good:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0968508405/sr=8-1/qid=1154482192/ref=sr_1_1/002-1502693-3032817?ie=UTF8

[calmblueocean]

68. Two questions.

"The Cuban Criminal Code lies at the core of Cuba's repressive machinery, unabashedly prohibiting nonviolent dissent. With the Criminal Code in hand, Cuban officials have broad authority to repress peaceful government opponents at home. Cuban law tightly restricts the freedoms of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement. In an extraordinary June 1998 statement, Cuban Justice Minister Roberto Díaz Sotolongo justified Cuba's restrictions on dissent by explaining that, as Spain had instituted laws to protect the monarch from criticism, Cuba was justified in protecting Fidel Castro from criticism, since he served a similar function as Cuba's 'king'" -- Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/Cuba996-01.htm#P359_16110)

1. Don't you think the Cuban state's prohibition of nonviolent dissent and restriction of freedom of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement casts a long shadow over any pretentions to Castro's legitimacy?


2. Do you think you would enjoy greater or lesser freedom if the Cuban Criminal Code and Cuban-style one-party democracy were implemented in America? Why or why not?

(Oops, that's 3 questions. :))

[manic expression]

70. Sure

1. Prohibition of nonviolent dissent? Kind of like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

Kind of like the Ladies in White (who have protested on many occassions, with the only opposition being similarly peaceful groups which support the Cuban government)?

Moving on, there really aren't significant restrictions of freedom of speech. People who have gone to Cuba and visited the island have told me that Cubans are not afraid of speaking their mind. Freedom of assembly is there, journalists are pretty much left to do as they will. So no, there isn't a shadow there at all.

One more thing. The "dissidents" who were jailed had recieved support and funding from US-based groups as well as the US. What's wrong with this? Well, for starters, recieving money for political purposes without notifying anyone is illegal in the US. Secondly, look at where that support was coming from, their rhetoric has always been the destabilization of the country itself, which is unacceptable.

2. Well, when 6 people are facing up to 30 years in prison for merely opposing animal torture in the US, it's hard to be very satisfied. When people are harassed and hampered by the police for merely organizing groups which are not agreeable to the status-quo (this has happened to me personally, by the way), when people are subject to police brutality, when people can't get a fair hearing in court and far worse (I could go on), the US system of "justice" is pretty disgusting and terrible (don't even get me started on the draconian sentences to people who steal hundreds of dollars or less while those who steal millions walk free or get either a slap on the wrist or a pat on the back).

The Cuban electoral system is completely free of party influence. Even the Communist Party of Cuba is not allowed to nominate candidates or have any part in elections. When you also consider the fact that people are actually involved in the process, people have a tangible voice in the process and can run for office without spending a dime, it's quite better than the system we have. I don't have to really tell you how corporations and those with money and power have created a monopoly on the political process in the US, the average person has practically NO voice.

To answer your question, we wouldn't have less freedom with the Cuban system. IMO, we'd have more representation and involvement in the government instead of having it be controlled exclusively by the few.

Does that answer your questions?

[smirkymonkey]

72. That's the pot talking,,, forget it.

:)

[JackNewtown]

88. How free is our press?

Look at the press toe the government line on the ME crisis and its promotion of every military action the US undertakes...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. Not true.

He might simply believe that they weren't in the best interest of the country, if he was sufficiently convinced of the superiority of his own judgement to that of the electorate.

I think the man was/is an oppressive dictator, but I see no particular reason to believe he was a coward.

[cigsandcoffee]

23. One man deciding what's right for a country for 50 years?

While not allowing the press to question him or opponents to debate his ideas for a shot at power? That's fear, plain and simple.

[manic expression]

37. Again, you're making statements that are just not true

The National Assembly has been deciding what's right for quite awhile. They're directly elected in open elections.

You have demonstrated complete ignorance as to Cuba and its system of government.

[cigsandcoffee]

58. Castro is a figurehead, then?

I was under the impression that he was the final authority in Cuba, being a President-for-life and all.

[manic expression]

64. Castro doesn't

have that much power and he doesn't exercise them all too much. So the impression you are under is incorrect and wrong.

Actually, just read this:

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ001.html

[rman]

102. As "president" he's a figure head,

since in the Cuban political system "president" does not entail the same thing as it does in the US.
As elected representative in the National Assembly he has as much power as the other elected representatives.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. No, it isn't.

arrogance, yes, but not fear.

[manic expression]

33. That's truly an insipid comment

First, the Cuban system of representation is arguably better than our own.

Second, there have been many elections in Cuba. He was elected.

Third, Cubans are allowed to and are not afraid to speak their mind (that's from a person who's been there).

Fourth, anyone can listen to American news stations with a simple radio (that's also from people who have been there).

There's probably more.

[SammyBlue]

97. Should have taken the contract with the Cardinals.

Probably would have been a great baseball player.

[Coyote_Bandit]

5. Neither - but

it would seem that he has been rather successful in safely evacuating his people to safer ground when hurricanes approach his little island. Perhaps we could learn a little something from him? Just a thought....

[Vidar]

6. Cowards don't lead revolutions

[cigsandcoffee]

10. But cowards are afraid of a fair fight.

The man may be brave with a gun, but cower in fear at a man allowed to use his pen freely. How else can you explain him not allowing a free press or even a choice of political parties?

If that's not fear, what is it?

[readmoreoften]

16. Is DU cowardly for sensoring posts about the Green party?

Most countries and systems don't permit rabble rousing. Cuba is just blunter about it. The U.S. permits it and then contains it, discredits it, and ridicules it.

[cigsandcoffee]

22. An independent press and free elections amount to rabble rousing?

Good Lord. Do you call yourself a Democrat?

DU is a private enterprise, and free to maintain whatever rules it wants. Membership in Cuba is compulsory for Cubans. Would you like to live in a place where your ideas were illegal and could mean jailtime, for God's sake?


Rabble rousing... Jeez-Louise...

[Selatius]

32. The "independent press" meme is discredited in the US

The news is biased in favor of the powerful. Whenever the man who represents the weaker elements of society slips up, he gets no quarter, but whenever the man who represents the powerful and the elite slips up, they make excuses for his mistakes or ignore them or simply downplay them.

I wouldn't want the system the US has right now, and likewise, I wouldn't want the system Castro has too as far as the flow of information is concerned.

As far as Castro himself is concerned, I'd say he is a failed revolutionary, but that's just my own opinion.

The fear I have is the US government will simply attempt to replace one tyranny in Havanna with another form of tyranny in Havana.

[cigsandcoffee]

43. Put it this way...

A Cuban equivalent of DU? Not allowed
A Cuban equivalent of Daily Kos? No way
Keith Olbermann? Forget it
Truthout? Not a chance
Salon? I don't think so
New York Times? Sure, as long as the government approves the writing



There just isn't a comparison. Americans are able to share more information amongst themselves and choose their press coverage with more in the mix than just about anywhere else on earth. To say that's similar to life in Cuba is just plain wrong.

[Selatius]

56. That's like saying the Titanic was a success because there were enough...

lifeboats for half the passengers.

The simple fact is Castro's form of control is crude and primitive at best. He's using tactics Hitler and Stalin would've been familiar with 60 years ago.

In the US, the corporatists have developed far more sophisticated and far more subtler methods of controlling the population. Goebbels would be proud of the feat the news media pulled off by making people believe Saddam was linked with 9/11. If you can make people believe that lie, you can make them believe in anything.

The old ways are gone. They don't build prisons of steel and concrete to deal with dissent anymore. They build them with ignorance and fear instead, a prison of the mind. You don't need to "liquidate" the dissidents anymore to disempower them.

[readmoreoften]

75. Just about anywhere else on earth? I don't think so...

European news coverage is far far freer and many countries in Latin America have presses and newscasts that are far freer than in the US. There are almost a million Mexicans protesting election fraud in the streets. They obviously have channels for sharing information. Did we have a million Americans in the streets to protest election fraud? No, that was squashed by the right wing media. The french somehow managed to get 2 million young people together to protest a change in labor law. Try to find anything in the US press about labor law.

Yes, in the US we are able to blog and argue to our hearts are content so long as we don't gather together to protest. Phoney discourse politics has replaced genuine politics. We think politics happens in our lovely online discussions... meanwhile they are rolling over us. What is the difference between Bush's "free speech zones" and Castros non-dissent? So you can come out and yell at GWB from 10 NYC blocks away only to get put in jail, but at least you get to make a show of it that the media will pooh-pooh. Some freedom.

We're only allowed to talk because our talk never turns to action.

[readmoreoften]

71. My point isn't to justify Cuba (to clarify.) And yes my DU example is...

grandiose and ridiculous overstatement. My point is that we have not had a genuine independent press in the US since at least the Reagan era. Before the internet there were few avenues for real information. And I DO believe that I live in a country where my ideas are illegal and could mean jailtime.

And yes, all statist regimes consider independent presses and free elections as rabble rousing. I don't consider them to be rabble rousing, but then again I'm a rabble rouser. (My point about DU is that there are politically-motivated constraints on speech that curtail complete freedom no matter where you go.)

I'm not sure if there is much of a moral distinction between the US and Castro anymore. I will be more afraid for Cubans if Bush decides to pull a "regime change" over there than I am for them now under their current regime. Right now they live in a totalitarian country with great health care and education. If we take over they'll live in a totalitarian country with no health care or education, but plenty of bread and circuses.

And as far as calling him a coward goes, I don't think of him as a coward. I think of him as a controlling totalitarian.

[Vidar]

80. Good point.

[pretzel4gore]

36. the usa is 90 miles away...

>
Defense Spending
Experts once argued whether Americans would finally grasp the enormity of the
military budget when spending reached $100 billion. Now $416 billion, and
candidates still arguing over who will spend the most, it would appear people still
haven't grasped a budget beyond comprehension.
Here's how political leaders are
spending the discretionary budget.
World's Largest
Military Budgets:
($U.S. Billions)
United States 416.0
Russia* 65.0
China* 47.0
Japan 42.6
U.K. 38.4
France 29.5
Germany 24.9
Saudi Arabia 21.3
Italy 19.4
India 15.6
South Korea 14.1
Brazil* 10.7
Taiwan* 10.7
Israel 10.6
Spain 8.4
Australia 7.6
Canada 7.6
Netherlands 6.6
Turkey 5.8
Mexico 5.9
Kuwait* 3.9
Ukraine 5.0
Iran 4.8
Singapore 4.8
Sweden 4.5
Egypt* 4.4
Norway 3.8
Greece 3.5
Poland 3.5
Argentina* 3.3
U.A.E.* 3.1
Colombia* 2.9
Belgium 2.7
Pakistan* 2.6
Denmark 2.4
Vietnam 2.4
North Korea 2.1
Czech Republic 1.6
Iraq 1.4
Philippines 1.4
Portugal 1.3
Libya 1.2
Hungary 1.1
Syria 1.0
Cuba 0.8
Sudan 0.6
Yugoslavia 0.7
Luxembourg 0.2
Source: www.cdi.org.
<

[manic expression]

46. You're kidding me, right?

"but cower in fear at a man allowed to use his pen freely."

That is truly hilarious.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Vidar]

76. Fear of the 300 million lb. dinosaur that lives next door, I will grant.

I suspect he would have "played fair" if he hadn't been so busy dodging the CIA dirty tricks people.

[readmoreoften]

12. I hate the idiotic reichwing appropriation of the word "coward"

People who lead revolutions are not cowards. Fundamentalists who kill themselves driving jetliners into buildings are not cowards. A coward is a sniveling little person who crouches in the corner afraid of the world. Bush and Cheney are fair estimations of COWARDS. They don't know the meaning of the word "personal risk"

Is he "evil" or not? That's a legitimate question. But he's not a coward. Please. It's embarrassing.

[KyuzoGator]

13. A common thief pretending to be a socialist. nt

[pretzel4gore]

24. ferchrissake, if he sold out, he'd have 50 million

that's what that chump peter jennings had when lucifer dragged him home - castro would at least be a multi millionaire if he sold out the cuban people. instead, he's faced down one of history's most intractable bullyboys, the usa

[KyuzoGator]

31. "Would be" a multimillionaire?!?! He's worth at least $900 million!

http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-05-04-castro_x.htm

And a portion of that he stole from my grandparents.

[killbotfactory]

39. That's a lie

It's based on the belief that every public asset in Cuba is owned by Castro.

[KyuzoGator]

42. He lives in a manner that makes Saddam look like a pauper.

And you'll quickly find that I have no fucking patience for anyone who defends him. He's a thief and a thug.

[bdamomma]

50. hey you can say the same about George

[KyuzoGator]

51. Who said that I don't? nt

[smirkymonkey]

74. Dont't you know? It's always either/or here.

There can't be more than one bad guy in the world and it's always the US. I despise our government and what is being done in our name, but that doesn't mean I can't see the flaws in other systems and governments.

It's intellectually dishonest to shut down healthy debate on a topic simply because one thinks the US is the greatest evil ever to befall humanity. Just because we are wrong, doesn't make everyone else right. Almost every government on the planet is fucked up, and I will take even the guise of democracy over dictatorship any day.

[calmblueocean]

90. Nicely said. (n/t)

[Zynx]

106. We don't pretend our leaders have to conform to a socialist ideal.

They can live like capitalist swine if they want to with dozens of homes.

[manic expression]

111. However,

no one has brought forth any evidence that Castro actually lives like this. Forbes, the only source so far, has no substantiated claims, only a figure which is drawn from the incorrect assumption that Castro owns public industry in Cuba. What's more is that Forbes also contradicts itself many times (says worth is $195M, then $900M, then...). "Suspect" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Just to put this in perspective, it is slanderous for such claims to be made without real reason for them.

[manic expression]

82. That's also untrue

do you know how big Saddam's palace complex was? We use it as a mammoth military base now. You really don't know what you're talking about.

Oh, and EVERY head of state lives in some form of luxury.

[KyuzoGator]

103. "Every head of state lives in luxury"?? Not in a socialist state.

But then again, Castro's not a socialist and maybe folks here should unhitch their wagons from his fraudulent "revolution."

Cuba is a shithole now and Castro is rich. You figure it out.

[manic expression]

110. Good job with the misquotation and with the wishful thinking

What I said was (thanks for misquoting me, but that's just the way you reactionaries operate anyway) "every head of state lives in some form of luxury", which means that their living conditions will naturally be hightened just by where they work, how they work, when they work, etc.... There is nothing to suggest that Castro is rich, Forbes contradicts itself endlessly and its only basis for its conclusions is the assumption that Castro owns all public industry, which is simply not true. Therefore, the idea that "Castro is rich" is decidedly incorrect, misled, slanderous and false.

Care to try again?

[Judi Lynn]

113. Miami right-wing idiot reactionary "exiles" have tried this claim

continually from the first.

You may remember the nasty stunt envisioned by the government men in "Operation Mongoose:"

Then there was Operation Good Times. That involved sowing Cuba with faked photos of "an obese Castro" with two voluptuous women in a lavishly furnished room "and a table brimming over with the most delectable Cuban food." The faked photo would be captioned "my ration is different."
(snip)

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kencast.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sure it sounds crude and stupid, but that's the kind of people who want to spend their time trying to slander and overthrow popular leaders.

[Judi Lynn]

118. Why don't you explain how ordinary socialist leaders live?

How does their daily life differ from the "luxury" Fidel Castro enjoys, in your imagination?

Bubble baths? Champagne? Caviar?

Not according to anything anyone else has heard.

Pure, unconnected, rambling, confused drool.

[rman]

100. Unsubstantiated claims,

commonly heard from the RW.

[Judi Lynn]

116. Why don't you provide some evidence to back yourself?

How would you know how he lives? How is the way he lives different from the leader of other islands? Other small Latin American countries?

What DO you actually know about it?

His own family plantation was the very first property which was given to the new government, lock, stock, and barrel. He turned it over himself.

He still has relatives living as farmers in the same area. The plantation has been a tourist spot for years, where Cubans to to visit.

[Greyhound]

123. I call BS.

Show me even one palace with the opulence of even one of Saddam's "hunting lodges".

[pretzel4gore]

61. castro stole nothing from your grandparents

the usa is a one party state-if you care about things you can control, do something about that. cuba cannot allow the type of freedom that the well-to-do enjoy in the us or canada etc, maybe it's due to the danger from the busheviks (who've robbed the amer people of how many billions?) or the cia or cuban exile fascists etc...
maybe you should fix your own house before worrying about your neighbor's happy home...

[KyuzoGator]

65. I'm doing plenty here, thanks for asking.

But you're delusional if you think Fidel Castro isn't one of the richest people on the planet.

[manic expression]

83. I'd like

to see something solid backing that up. People have told you that you are believing common myths based off mistaken assumptions.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

109. "Happy home"?

Try "your neighbour's repressive dictatorship"

Hearing a liberal talk about how Cuba "cannot allow the type of freedom..." makes me want to vomit.

[pretzel4gore]

126. a liberal!

i don't even know why i'm a leftist, as i despise the human race mostly - liberal leftism works to improve the lot of the great dull beast ie the human fukkin race (often in defiance of its own wishes) while the only ones i truly care about are the wild ones in nature, the whales and every little sparrow...fukk humanity (except for the kids, they're actually rather cool)
if cuba allowed 'freedom' as defined by people such as you, the monkee would be pouring cash into the country, bribing officials every chance, creating dissent with the (monkee) imposed poverty, identifying those who are homest and would uphold the law etc, then undermining them iow they'd corrupt cuba just like they corrupt every society they're able to. your understanding of why the revolution happened, and how its been twisted away from its desired goals, is cruel on top of being rather misinformed - you blame the victim, which is the cuban people. you guys claim castro is rich, though he lives in the public eye of his people. When khruschev fell from power, he went through a period when he was cut off of his pension checks - but he just laffed at that and said if he needed anything, the people would gladly provide him (brezhnev recognised that also, and restore khruschev's pension)... just the fact we have to argue castro and cuba's case on a supposedly leftwing site like DU says the ministry of truth has been very effective in warping the mindset of too many people.
i personally believe we humans are members of a doomed species living on a dying planet - and the fact the guilty milkfed bastards who contributed most to this death are gonna die blaming liberals and 'socialists' and the great unwashed for the mess just means they die as stupid as they lived...fukkem

[manic expression]

85. This is pathetic

I took the liberty of looking into it, and I found a few suspect things.

Forbes said he's worth $195M, yet Forbes also says he's worth $900M. Funny stuff.

Anyway, Castro "is likely the beneficiary of up to $900 million, based on his control of state-owned companies" (from Forbes). Yet the assumption that he is in control of state-owned companies and reaps their profits isn't supported by anything.

[Judi Lynn]

115. Forbes' explanation is so transparent, so feeble.

They insult the readers by even trying to pass that crap off on them.

If Americans get dumbed down any further, it may be possible jerks like this will be able to get more believers.

[sweetheart]

14. a non-event

whatever, another man approaches death without humility... what's new.

[Minstrel Boy]

15. This "coward" epithet

gets thrown around waaaay too much, and entirely nonsensically.

Go ahead, hate him if you like, but he's not a coward and nobody's fool.

Which is more than I can say...

[Taxloss]

19. Neither, really.

He's stood up against the strongest country in the world for nearly 50 years against tremendous odds, including repeated efforts to bump him off, and still seems pretty cocky about it. That seems pretty courageous to me, but he doesn't brook any internal criticism. That doesn't automatically make him a coward, but it's far from heroic.

What IS cowardly is the US blockade, which unnecessarily impoverishes this small, harmless country. There were good reasons for it in '62; now, it's simply punitive, and hurts the Cuban people horribly.

[malaise]

20. Put simply

History will absolve any error he made. He loved his people and whenever he dies he will leave them healthy and educated.

[calmblueocean]

27. Except the ones he put in prison for disagreeing with him.

What good is being healthy and educated if you live in fear, unable to express yourself?

[malaise]

29. I guess better than

living in fear without health care or a decent education -like most Americans these days.

[cigsandcoffee]

34. Actually, I would rather not have health care...

...then to be in prison. And if my education is what led me to the ideas which got me tossed in jail, I suppose I wouldn't be all that thankful for the "free" one.

[malaise]

47. Have a look at Amnesty International

re who has the most prisoners in the hemisphere. The US has 1/5th of the Cuban population in prison. Go figure.

[Judi Lynn]

119. Highest per capita prison population in the entire world. Smooth.

What's more, the right-wing loons in _Bush World enjoy controlling the private prison industry, with the numbers of both prisons and prisoners growing continually. The sky's the limit.

[smirkymonkey]

77. Touche.

[calmblueocean]

48. You're setting the bar too low. :)

I think there's room to criticize Castro & W.

There are worse places on Earth than Cuba, definitely, but establishing yourself as dictator of a one-party state for 40 years? That's not defensible in my book.

Think about this: Trying to start a Cuban version of DU that criticized Castro the same way we criticize W and Repubs would get you imprisoned for decades. Here's a link to a Human Rights Watch Report on Cuba: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

Scary stuff.

[manic expression]

86. They were arrested not for disagreeing

they were arrested for taking funds from foreign groups without notifying anyone and for subversive aims. That's illegal in the US.

Do you really think the government would be oppressive WHILE giving extraordinary amounts of education and medical care? It doesn't make sense.

The FACT is that Cubans can express themselves and do not live in fear, I've heard this from people who have visited the island and talked to people on the street. You can even pick up US news in Cuba from any simple radio without a problem.

And how do you explain stuff like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

[calmblueocean]

89. A few thoughts

"Ms Roque said the rally - held in a garden outside one of the organisers' homes - was the first open opposition meeting in 46 years of Communist rule."

I think that says a lot.

I've been reading more about the Varela Project and the people arrested and imprisoned because of it. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varela_Project :

The Varela Project citizens' initative called for the holding of a national referendum on civil liberties, including freedom of speech, an amnesty for political prisoners, support for private business, a new electoral law, and a general election.

The organization reported having collected 11,020 signatures, more than the requisite number for consideration by Cuban National Assembly. The Cuban National Assembly Constitution and Legal Affairs Committee tabled the Varela Project citizens' initative, and responded with its own contrary initiative. This initiative, for which the government claimed 99% voter approval, provided the constitution be amended to make permanent the socialist nature of Cuba's government. <3> A BBC reporter noted that many Cubans said they felt pressured into signing the government's petition. <4> According to the United States State Department, "activists reported increased harassment by State Security agents. Authorities arrested and detained Varela activists, confiscated signatures, fined and threatened activists and signers, and forced signers to rescind signatures. State Security impersonated canvassing volunteers and increasingly infiltrated the ranks of activists. In May and June, Oswaldo Paya reported State Security agents visited and pressured more than 50 Varela Project signatories to retract their signatures and denounce the Varela Project activists who had collected their signatures." <5>

That's the subversion you're talking about? A petition for civil liberties we take for granted?

As far as I can tell, the "gifts" they were accused of taking were mostly free use of office space and office machines. Does this merit 25 years in prison? Forced "re-education"? You can't tell me that this is just.

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the United Nations Human Rights Commission all report Cuba's holding of "prisoners of conscience" and call on Cuba to meet universally accepted standards in civil liberties. I'm sorry, but that means more to me than secondhand hearsay from your friend.

I do want to say thanks for the discussion because you've prompted me to learn more about how Cuban government works, and what freedoms are allowed there. I've been meaning to do that for a while. I'm still learning, and I want to say thanks for giving me that push. I also want to say that there is much about Cuba that is inspiring and commendable. Their innovation in health care and biotechnology (!), the ratio of doctors to patients, the commitment to literacy and free post-secondary education. I think our embargo against Cuba is backward and morally inconsistent. But Cuba needs to allow more openness and relinquish some of the control it has over its citizenry. A country where 99% of voters agree is clearly not a country where people feel free to disagree. I believe Cuba's tradition of egalitarianism is strong enough to stand on its own, and withstand whatever criticisms might come to light. Hopefully, someday those running the country will think so too.

[manic expression]

96. It might interest you to know

that Oswaldo Paya, the leader of that initiative, spent a total of one night in jail. IIRC, it wasn't related to that petition. That should tell you something.

As far as I have seen, there were well established and well known links between those dissidents and the groups in the US and the US government. Oswaldo Paya himself actually criticized those dissidents for having those connections because they discredited the rest of the dissident movement (and they do).

There's a ton of misinformation on Cuba, and so it's easy to get caught in the web. AI, HRW can get caught up in that, and I do think they have done so in this case. Furthermore, they are all about "just caring about people's rights", and so the appearence of oppression trumps the reality that it isn't unreasonable action on the part of Cuba in their minds (just my opinion). Just about everyone who I've talked and who have been to Cuba have told me that there really isn't any restriction on speech, I mean you can get American radio stations from a simple radio in Havana.

Anyway, I think it is admirable that you're delving into the topic and getting a feel for the situation. I completely agree with your views on Cuba's undoubted achievements. With the 99% thing, I think it may partially be the product of how people who didn't like the revolution got out of town when it happened. At any rate, trying to gain a clearer objective view of the situation is the best one can do, and that much is one of the best things anyone can do.

[robcon]

130. Your line is disingenuous.

You wrote: "Oswaldo Paya, the leader of that initiative, spent a total of one night in jail. IIRC, it wasn't related to that petition. That should tell you something."

Yes but other signers were sentenced to 20+ years (one librarian to 25 years!) in jail.

Why would you mention a person who didn't go to jail, without mentioning those who did, unless your purpose was to hide the facts, manic expression?

[cigsandcoffee]

28. But not connected to the Internet.

A lot of bad ideas on those Internets, I guess! People may decide they want a revolution (cough).

[killbotfactory]

35. They have access to the internet

However they have to rely on slower satellite systems due to our embargo.

http://blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/cubaupdate2.html

[malaise]

49. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! n/t

[malaise]

40. I never said Cuba was perfect

but most of the people who want a revolution in Cuba live outside of Cuba and want to return to the good old days with a few wealthy people on top and lots of ignorant poor people to exploit on the bottom.

Fidel is one of the few educated leaders in our hemisphere who put poor people first.

In his poor island none of his people ever faced a situation like Katrina - lives matter in Cuba and they look after everyone with the little they have.
Despite almost annual hurricanes do you think anywhere in Cuba looks like New Orleans nearly one year after Katrina.

I'd take Fidel over Bush every day of the week.

[bdamomma]

55. the castro government takes care of their people in the event

of natural disasters such as hurricanes, can't say about the idiot we have in WH.

[pretzel4gore]

129. you're damn right...

workers of the world, unite!
eat the rich and sell their bones to Fright Village....
;)

[Sinti]

25. Neither

He led a revolution against the Batista government, so he's obviously not a coward. They more than deserved to be overthrown.

He bought into his own hype, and allowed both himself and the "movement" to become more important than the people it was supposed to serve - thus he cannot be called a hero either.

Human frailty sucks.

[killbotfactory]

30. Not a coward

The guy has put his life on the line for his ideals numerous times.

I don't agree with the restrictions on the speech and organizations, however it is important to understand why they are in place considering what the US has done in most of Latin America, manipulating the major media in the region and illicit funding of political parties and/or military factions that end up violently overthrowing governments and putting in place violent US puppets.

For Example, what we did in Guatemala. Che Guevera was there in the middle of it, before he met up with Castro.

The term "banana republic" actually originated in reference to United Fruit's domination of corrupt governments in Guatemala and other Central American countries. The company brutally exploited virtual slave labor in order to produce cheap bananas for the lucrative U.S. market. When a mildly reformist Guatemala government attempted to reign in the company's power, Bernays whipped up media and political sentiment against it in the commie-crazed 1950s.

"Articles began appearing in the New York Times, the New York Herald Tribune, the Atlantic Monthly, Time, Newsweek, the New Leader, and other publications all discussing the growing influence of Guatemala's Communists," Tye writes. "The fact that liberal journals like the Nation were also coming around was especially satisfying to Bernays, who believed that winning the liberals over was essential. . . . At the same time, plans were under way to mail to American Legion posts and auxiliaries 300,000 copies of a brochure entitled 'Communism in Guatemala--22 Facts.'"

His efforts led directly to a brutal military coup. Tye writes that Bernays "remained a key source of information for the press, especially the liberal press, right through the takeover. In fact, as the invasion was commencing on June 18, his personal papers indicate he was giving the 'first news anyone received on the situation' to the Associate Press, United Press, the International News Service, and the New York Times, with contacts intensifying over the next several days."

http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/1999Q2/bernays.html

More examples here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/index.html#Latin%20America

We should end the embargo, stop trying to illegally bankroll opposition and/or terrorist groups, and respect Cuba as a soverign nation. Stop giving them excuses to crush dissent and bar free speech. If we engage constructively with them in respect to reconcile our differences I believe we will be able to encourage them to reform and allow more freedom.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skipos]

45. I think Castro is terrible, just like Bush. But neither are "cowards"

in my opinion.

[IndianaGreen]

84. You don't think that Bush is a coward? Dude, you are all wrong!

Bush went AWOL and stayed stateside drinking and chasing young Mexican women, while someone like John Kerry left his comfortable and very wealthy life to do dangerous duty in Vietnam.

On 9-11 Bush turned tail and flew to a SAC underground bunker. The sob was nowhere to be found!

[skipos]

87. Yes, he was a coward then, but now he is more of an idiot

than anything else.

[dollydew]

53. Castro Poll

Where is the poll that asks if Batista, an American supported dictator was a hero or a coward? He allowed organized crime and drug trafficking to flow through Cuba with support of the US Govt. Remember Cuba was not a democracy before Castro took over. Castro had the courage to flee his country after being put in prison and return. I don't agree with any dictatorship. But let's have a little perspective. It's ok for the US to support Batista a money laundering, drug trafficking, Mafia enabling dictator. But, as Castro is not the kind of dictator the US had in mind he's evil. Castro has a dictatorship. The Cuban people have a right to choose. Why don't the exiles do as Castro did? Go back. Organize a resistance and fight Castro and his followers in the streets as Castro did with Batista? I've heard all about the anti-Castro Cubans in this country. That is their right. Then why aren't they willing to put their lives on the line for what they believe in? Why do they expect the US to fight, as proxy, for them? Go back to Cuba, risk your life, and fight for democracy. If Castro as flawed as he is was willing to do it, why aren't they?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

67. Because He's An Oppressive Coward Of Course :o)

[laura888]

73. This statement lost me:

"Castro doesn't have the confidence to allow a single independent newspaper, radio or television station, or to allow people with different ideas to even appear on Cuban media."

Whaattt?? Can the journalist get inside this guy's head?

Whatever happens after Casto's death--- the U.S. should stay the hell out of it. We need to protect our own very tenuous freedoms.

[Truthiness Inspector]

91. What?

If the free press was banned here would you be so generous, so quick to cast it aside?

We cherish our freedoms, that is why we are here, and CAN be here posting on DU. Imagine if that was taken away, or never granted in the first place. Would you be so generous casting off freedom of speech and expression if it applied to you? I sure as hell wouldn't, and that is why I can't support for anyone else either.

[electron_blue]

78. Wow, my eyes are opened. I had no idea so many at DU considered him a hero

wowie

[calmblueocean]

93. If you look at the posts

it's really just a few people, posting a lot :)

[electron_blue]

104. Well, you're right. I read all the posts hoping to be enlightened, but

I didn't really get that. Still - can a few people vote a lot, too?

I'm pretty ignorant about Cuba's history, compared to many. What I know comes from 8 years of living in Florida and the news you pick up there, plus what I hear from stepfamily I have who come from Cuba.

[Zynx]

108. There are some that have called Hezbollah "freedom fighters".

We do have some wacky elements on this site. It's the typical trash that flows in from the deep alleys of the internet.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

125. I'm Right There With Ya. I'm ASHAMED Of This Poll Result.

Absolutely ashamed of it.

[Recursion]

79. Cynical Opportunist

The WarChimp of his day.

[IndianaGreen]

81. Bush and Cheney are the only cowards in here.

Bush went AWOL and stayed stateside drinking and chasing young Mexican women, while someone like John Kerry left his comfortable and very wealthy life to do dangerous duty in Vietnam.

Cheney? What can I say about the King of Deferments!

[davidinalameda]

92. why is Castro afraid of his own people

maybe he and the Communists would lose an election?

interesting

[rman]

101. more unsubstantiated claims

[Zynx]

107. The seem afraid to ever find out.

That tells you something.

[davidinalameda]

112. has he ever allowed a free election

[WinkyDink]

94. Castro knows the score about exiles and mobsters just waiting for

any opening to bring back corruption, class warfare, and Social Darwinism.
And of course, the US stands ready "to aid in the transition".

[davidinalameda]

121. there's no corruption there now?

interesting

[mark414]

95. he's both

he was a hero but turned out to be a huge disappointment...what should've been a great revolution turned into what it is now. part of the blame can lie with the US and their rapidly swift act of turning their backs on him with their anti-everything not christian capitalist hysteria...

[liberaltrucker]

98. Screw the poll

Viva Fidel! Hasta la Victoria Seimpre!
Viva la Revolucion!

[rman]

99. Cuban army defended Angola against invasion by South African army,

which was the beginning of the end of "Apartheid".
I wouldn't call that cowardice.

[ForrestGump]

105. An autocrat, not a coward

I'm a bit ambivalent about old Fidel. On the one hand, he has someof the hallmarks of true greatness; on the other hand, he's a dictator and he's been an oppressor and worse.

I admire some of what he has done -- standing up to the US, for example, takes guts (and including criminals among the "huddled masses" of the Mariel boatlift was, although a tragedy for South Florida for many years, the kind of practical joke I can grudgingly appreciate) -- and also can see how he was driven further toward Moscow by a hostile America totally fixated on anything socialist. And the dude is a survivor. And, yes, Cuba's got some good things going on...and some really bad things.

In all, the autocracy is bad...but Castro, himself, will to me always remain a man and a leader whose story is written in shades of gray. And, nowadays, Americans have little direct moral authority in condemning violations of human rights (by which I mean that we still can, but our own backyard is most definitely dirty), although if you consider American foreign policy that propped up or installed right-wing pupppets around the world, we never really did have much of that authority.

It would have been interesting to see what Cuba might have become had the US been more receptive to Fidel back in the '50s.

[arcos]

114. Both. nt

[T Town Jake]

117. Coward, of course. And add to that murderer, tyrant, demagogue...

... & etc.

[Jim Warren]

120. Interesting and surprising the brainwashing is so complete

Seems like the anti-pinko-commie trance continues unabated.

[Greyhound]

122. Neither, it depends on what and to whom you are talking about.

On the one hand he has ruled a totalitarian regime that has committed a multitude of horrible crimes.

On the other, he certainly didn't take over the country single-handed, he was successful because the overwhelming majority of the citizens decided he couldn't be any worse than Batista and his cronies.

[happydreams]

124. Oh boy, another shit-for-brains shit slinging contest

pulling out all the tired shit about how bad Castro is.

JUDGE HIM ONLY BY THE RESULTS OF HIS ACTIONS!

[robcon]

128. Exactly: his actions have resulted in a police state.

His fascism is obvious, and his gulag (or Cuban gravesites) are full of his opponents.

[happydreams]

131. Oh boy, you don't even know what fascism is.

Look it up! :eyes:

Good moniker though, "robcon"

[robcon]

127. Castro's a cowrd because he won't run free elections.

His supporters say he's popular in Cuba, but he's a coward because he won't face the public.

Anyone who ran against him, and any publication that supported his opponent would be arrested. If the Varela Project is any gauge, anyone supporting his opponent would be put in jail for 25 years.