A question for Jewish DUers who support Israel.

[Hoping4Change]

DUer toqueville in another thread posted info from wikipedia about Olmert's background. One interesting fact is that Olmert's parents were affiliated with a far right Zionist group, its leader before the 1930s wrote a regular column entitled "From the Notebook of a Fascist". (see excerpt below)

I was struck dumb, because however naively I have always associated Jewish intellectuals with the Left, Far Left and New Left. But in contemplating this surprising and disturbing information about a strain a Fascism within Zionism, I realized that Fascism is not a product of any race or nationality and just as there is a Jewish Mafia there can also be Jewish Fascists.

How many people 20 years ago would have ever entertained the notion that Americans would in 2006 be seriously debating how close the US is at this moment to being a fascist state given all the repukes have done? (Actually I suppose there were a group of intellectuals seriously considering this possibility as far back as the 40's, Jewish leftist intellectuals of the Frankfurt School who fled Germany. I'm reading about them and their prescience is chilling.)

However be that as it may, in 2006 the Jewish intellectuals in the US who have immense influence are neocons. Given that these men are integral players in the move to the far right in the US, why would their fellow travelers in Israel not be heading in the same direction? If the US can be brought to the brink of Fascism why not Israel?

Given this preamble, I would like to hear from Jewish DUers whether they believe that Israel could become a fascist state.


From Wikipedia:
National-messianism vs. Jewish nationalism

Up to 1933, a number of leaders from the national-messianist wing of Revisionism were inspired by the fascist movement of Benito Mussolini. These leaders, such as Abba Achimeir, were attracted to fascism for its staunch anti-communism and its focus on rebuilding the glory of the past, which national-messianists such as Uri Zvi Greenberg felt had much connection to their view of what the Revisionist movement should be.

Fascism like Zionism, was a return to the roots of the national culture and the historical past. According to Achimeir, Italian Fascism was not anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist, whereas communist ideology and praxis were intrinsically so.

Achimeir joined the Revisionist movement in 1930, but before joining he wrote a regular column entitled "From the Notebook of a Fascist" in the unaffiliated but pro-Revisionist magazine Doar Hayom. He crafted his pro-fascistic views in these columns, and also wrote an article in 1928 titled "On the Arrival of Our Duce" to celebrate Jabotinsky's visit to Palestine, and propose a new direction for the Revisionist movement, more in line with Achimeir's views. (Segev, Tom, The Seventh Million: Israelis and the Holocaust pg 23.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism

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[BuyingThyme]

1. If the neocons weren't fascists before they hooked up with he Bushes,

they are now.

[Hoping4Change]

4. They were neocons long before bush came along. All were

either students and/or admires of Leo Strauss.

"Leo Strauss (September 20, 1899 – October 18, 1973), was a German born Jew and naturalized American political philosopher, who specialized in the study of classical philosophy. He spent most of his career as a Political Science Professor at the University of Chicago, where he taught several generations of devoted students, as well as publishing fifteen books. Since his death, he has come to be regarded, although debatably, as a leading intellectual source of neoconservatism in the United States."

from wikipedia

[villager]

2. well, of course, speaking as Jewish DUer, Israel is just as prone

to fascism from within as the US obviously is.

I mean hell, the far right in Israel assassinated the one prime minister who made the greatest inroads to peace -- and the right was awarded by winning the next election! (Of course, "terrorists" are allowed to guide policy there, as here).

That said, I sure as hell wish Arafat had accepted Barak's peace offer, so we coulda worked from there.

But "peace" is not in the interest of any of the elites anywhere, it seems...

At least, it won't be until they realize their fortunes are worthless on a ruined planet...

[Hoping4Change]

11. Thank you for your reply. Given that most Americans are

immersed in the myth surrounding America as the annointed by God to be the bastion of democracy, do you think that a majority of Jews are similiarly entranced by the mythic notion of their homeland?

One reason I ask this is that Jewish intellectuals whose views don't meet with approval are censored such as Norman Finklestein who has had a number of speaking engagements cancelled due to pressure from Jewish groups.

Do you think Jews who for centuries were powerless outsiders have intrinically changed now they are players?

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[villager]

22. well, there may be collective "battered child" syndrome afoot

in how Israel pursues its military options...

Pretty much the hardest thing to be right now is a Jewish leftist -- the leftists don't trust Jews, inflexibly pro-Israel Jews don't trust nuanced criticism, etc.

[jonnyblitz]

3. have you heard of UN resolution 3379?

it states that zionism is racism...here is a link to a wikipedia entry. It got revoked in 1991 by another UN resolution 4686 in 1991.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_3379

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

6. no it is not synonymous but it plays a role in some forms of

fascism, nationalism probably plays a bigger role.

[Ian David]

7. Incredible ignorance. Israel is full of Arabs, blacks, and gays...

and gives them all equal citizenship and protection.

Do you know Mr. Ayak?

If comparing Israel to Nazi German isn't anti-semitism, then I don't know what is.

[jonnyblitz]

8. hey..i am not the one who wrote the UN resolution.

Is the UN antisemitic too? and by the way, the arabs are treated like dogshit in Israel so who in fuck are you trying to kid. jesus.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. She Did OK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/294051.stm

[Hoping4Change]

9. Israel was set up as a Jewish state and there is lots of debate

about what that means, and just how much equality can there be if from the getgo it was established as a Jewish state. How would you feel if you lived in the Christian United States of America as opposed to the USofA?

Chomsky is a critic of Israel having been established as a Jewish State. He supports an ethnic homeland for Jews but says "that the idea of an ethnic state is itself racist and the ethnicity in question (or its history) does not matter. Noam Chomsky, himself Jewish, in an interview on C-SPAN said:

"I have always supported a Jewish ethnic homeland in Palestine. That is different from a Jewish state. There's a strong case to be made for an ethnic homeland, but as to whether there should be a Jewish state, or a Muslim state, or a Christian state, or a white state — that's entirely another matter."
from Wikipedia




Furthermore to address your second point my question in the OP is not whether Israel can be compared to Nazi Germany. My question is whether Israel could become a Fascist state.

[Sinti]

10. Any state can become fascist, if you combine the right elements. n/t

[Hoping4Change]

13. Citizens of Germany and Italy may know that because of firsthand

experience. However I wonder whether either Jews or Americans could entertain the possibility that their respective countries could fall into Fascist hands.

It is hard enough in this day and age of corporately controlled news media to get a handle on what actually is happening, there is so much that mitigates against getting at the truth. How much more difficult is it to be objective about one's country when a majority of citizens believe that God was directly involved in the establishment of that country?

[Sinti]

17. It's like a frog in a pot. You put it in cold water and heat it up slowly

the frog falls asleep and never realizes he is being boiled until it's too late. :cry:

Edited to add:

If you terrify a populace sufficiently with the monster on the outside, the monster on the inside doesn't look that bad.

[Hoping4Change]

18. Excellent metaphor. nt

[Meshuga]

14. However there is a difference

Judaism is a complicated entity and it cannot be classified to be only a religion. Islam and Christianity are religions. Judaism is spirituality (religion), an ethical system, and peoplehood. A Jew can be secular (not even believe in God) and still practice Judaism because he/she can still follow tradition or the system of ethical mitzvot. You can be a practicing Jew by practicing one or two or all three components of Judaism.

Israel is not a Jewish state in respects to only allowing one religion or one race. Most Israeli Jews are secular. Israel is supposed to be a safe place for any Jew in the world facing persecution. Even the Jews who are atheist and don't want anything to do with religion can move to Israel. Other religions are allowed in Israel and any group can be represented in the government.

The other complaint I have are the charges of racism. Jews are not a race! One can be an Ethiopian Jew, an Arab Jew, European Jew, and even an Asian Jew. People who go to Israel are usually surprised to see we are not a race and that there are Jews of all colors, shapes, and sizes.

[Hoping4Change]

21. Given a time limitattion I have to be brief.

I think Chomsky's statement gets right to the point.

As stated above Chomsky supports an ethnic homeland for Jews but says "that the idea of an ethnic state is itself racist and the ethnicity in question (or its history) does not matter. Noam Chomsky, himself Jewish, in an interview on C-SPAN said:

"I have always supported a Jewish ethnic homeland in Palestine. That is different from a Jewish state. There's a strong case to be made for an ethnic homeland, but as to whether there should be a Jewish state, or a Muslim state, or a Christian state, or a white state — that's entirely another matter."

from Wikipedia

[bloom]

20. I think you make a lot of good points nt

[cool user name]

19. Israel has a two tiered citizenship construct

Citizenship and National have very different meanings in Israel than it does in America.

An Arab can be a citizen but can't be a national. Israeli Jews can be both with all the privileges that come with it.

[HamdenRice]

26. That is just not true

It is difficult to have an intelligent debate unless we, as civil and civilized people, adhere to certain ground rules -- like we will not spread blatant untruths.

Now you could compare the rights of minorities in Israel to the rights of minorities in say Arab countries and we could have different opinions -- reasonable people can agree to disagree.

But you cannot truthfully say that Israel provides equal rights to Israeli Arabs. That is just not true. There is legislative, legal discrimination against Israeli Arabs. This is an easily verifiable fact that you must be aware of.

[Skarbrowe]

12. John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience" is about the personality

traits that can lead to fascist behavior. It can happen anywhere.

I will admit to falling asleep several times trying to read this book. The first few chapters where Dean is giving a historical account of "conservatism" are a bit dry. Maybe I was simply to out of it to read at the time. The book is a MUST read, though. It's what you've always known but couldn't quite figure out how to put it into words about the particular type of Republican that drives you nuts and could possibly destroy the world. These types of Double High authoritarian conservatives can be in any country, including Israel.

[Hoping4Change]

15. That sounds like an interesting read. Thanks for the suggestion.

I wonder whether people who believe that divine providence is involved with the establishment of their state are able to entertain the notion that their country might go to the "dark side". As I stated above I think many Americans and Jews might be loathe to even entertain that prospect.

[IronLionZion]

23. Order and discipline are valued virtues to some Israelis

From Dictionary.com

Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.

[Hoping4Change]

25. I don't think those virtues are confined to some Israelis,

I see those traits also being valued by Christian and Muslim fundementalists. I think that fascism is creeping its way into peoples pysches in may parts of the world so I could direct that question to a number of different groups. However given that Jews like many Americans embrace a "my-country-right-or-wrong" attitude and believe their countries have divine sanction, I wonder if either could entertain the possibility that their mythic homelands could fall to the dark side.

[Miss Chybil]

24. Interesting thread. nt