Pennsylvania law will allow flag-flying at all times

[Patiod]

Some home owners associations and condo associations limit the flying of the American flag to certain holidays - this new law would allow people to fly a standard-sized American flag 365 days a year.

I'm not a "flag waver" (few Quakers are) but I like this idea - if you want to fly the flag for any damned reason you please, you should be able to. On the other hand, I really hate the smallness of some association rules, so that's probably why this sounds good to me.

[SmokingJacket]

1. Anything that over-rides the power of neighborhood associations

is fine by me.

In my opinion, the whole concept of gated communities and neighborhood associations telling you when to cut your grass is, well... unAmerican!

[lectrobyte]

3. I never understand why folks are so bent out of shape over those

rules. It's not like you can't buy the house without at least being notified of them, at least in any state I've lived in.

[Book Lover]

8. Because it is yet another layer of (unelected, BTW) government

that has, frankly, unchecked authority. To speak to the OP's case in point: here in the real world governed by the federal constitution, no body other than the federal government is authorized to regulate flag displays. Yet this body, this neighborhood association, has grabbed that power for themselves, and it has previously found actual governmental agencies that will enforce their regulations. The onus is on the home owner to prove (that is, to buy a lawyer's time) the regulations are unduly restrictive and possibly illegal; which I call bullshit on. Now the state legislature has had to pass a law that they should never have had to waste their time on (and that they have little to no authority to pass, IMO, as flag displays are a federal matter, but I guess checking any governmental power is hoping for too much these days...).

clarification and expansion on edit

[treestar]

40. It is by contract - it is not a level of government

[SmokingJacket]

12. I'm not bent out of shape. I just think they suck.

That's all!

[Recursion]

5. OMG yes!

I frigging hate neighborhood associations. It's all the people who were on the Prom Committee in high school and no longer have the power to mess up people's lives with their nosey intrusiveness and apparently really miss that.

And for Christ's sake, let people fly the damn flag if they want to. I could see neighborhood rules saying you have to follow the rules of proper flag presentation and treatment, but come on.

[CottonBear]

6. I live in a neighborhood with an association. I like living here.

We can fly flags but not any flags and the pole and mount must be approved (so no one puts up crappy, cheap ones.) For instance, seasonal flags should match the season (i.e. no Halloween flags at Christmas time.) MAny of my neighborts fly US flags. There is a size limit on the flags too. (Once, a neighbor put up a huge US flag that blocked the window of the neighboring townhouse and thus the size limit rule came into play.)

If it were not for the neighborhood rules, the idiotic, very young (Republican) man who put up a Confederate flag in our intergrated and diverse GA neighborhood (in a blue city) would have been able to continue to fly it and insult all of us, especially our black and gay neighbors. Thank goodness, he sold his home and moved away. He sped and was an underage drunk driver to boot. I hope he went back to the red county from whence he came.

[Patiod]

9. I don't hate neighborhood rules, just idiotic ones

like that you can only fly your flag on 7 days.

My parents are fighting someone who wants to put a beauty parlor in a 100% residential, single-family-house-only, no businesses anywhere neighborhood.

So yeah, you gotta have some rules, but the precise shade of beige for your trash cans, or no American flag at all except 7 days....

[SmokingJacket]

13. What's wrong with the beauty parlor?

I love mixed use neighborhoods -- people can actually WALK to their services. How nice not to have to get on the highway to get a haircut.

[Patiod]

19. I love mixed-use neighborhoods, too, but this isn't one of them

I actively sought out a mixed-use town atmosphere when I choose the place I live now - we walk to get water ice, to go to the diner, the mechanic, and SO walks to the barber.

But a beauty shop is wildly inappropriate for my parents' suburban development neighborhood, and frankly, would just crap it up. There are NO BUSINESSES anywhere in this area - it's all single-family houses and parks. And no one would walk, since it would be too far for most people - they would drive, and the homeowners would have to pave over most of their small yard to put in a turn-around (required by zoning) because people wouldn't be allowed to park in the street. It would REALLY lower property values in the immediate neighborhood.

[CottonBear]

22. Is the beauty parlor a "customary & allowed home occupation?"

I am involved in planning and zoning so I'm very famliar with this issue.

Go to the local Planning Department and inquire as to the specific of the zoning ordinance. I have never heard of roadway or driveway improvements being required for a home occupations. Those uses that would require excessive parking or traffice are not usually allowed because they are not in keeping with the residential character of the neighborhood.

[Patiod]

25. My dad is going there this week

Thank you for the suggestions - that's why I love DU - there are always folks who really do know something about the topic under discussion!

He's going, and he's feeling a lot of despair right now - he and my mother (both age 82) may move to avoid this. I'm hoping the zoning guy will tell them everything will be okay, but it sounds like he indicated that he's inclined to approve the application (maybe because her husband has pull in the township administration...but that's another story)

It is neither reasonable nor customary - there are NO client-based businesses anywhere in the neighborhood. But she has said she's only going to do "a few friends and family" (in which case, why apply for a license?). Plus, a "few friends and family" won't help her pay off a $450,000 house.

[CottonBear]

26. "Customary and allowed" is typically legal language.

Either it is allowed by right with a permit or there may be some sort of variance or hearings process with an appointed citizen board (hearings or variance board) which is usually a completely different body than a planning commission which is also a group of appointed citizens.

Go with him and meet with staff. Make an appointment. Meet with the planning director if at all possible Take exact addresses and property information with you. Make sure that you ask the RIGHT questions. Many people get confused and off-track because they get the right answers to the wrong questions. Ask lots of questions and pose many scenarios to the staff person.

[jmowreader]

32. Not usually, no

There are two reasons for this.

One is because of the nature of a beauty parlor--they have plenty of noxious chemicals on hand, which would make living in the home unbearable. You could also throw in a sanitation issue, for cosmetology and cooking grease don't mix.

The other is the traffic issue. Beauty parlors cannot operate without a lot of traffic--you can't go to someone's house, pick up her head, take it back to your shop, work on it and return it.

Personal services businesses are generally never allowed in residential-only neighborhoods.

[RamboLiberal]

30. Good god how would paving a yard over hurt

As long as someone isn't turning their house into a bar or house of ill repute I could care less if someone wants to operate a small business out of their home.

In my area we have a lot of dentists, doctors, accountants, lawyers, chiropracters, small basement beauty parlors and barber shops, even an IT support company I work with that have set up businesses in homes. Some the business owners live in, some they don't but they didn't do anything IMHO that devalued the neighborhood - in fact in many cases they have helped the neighborhood by really fixing up older homes. As long as they can arrange parking that doesn't inhibit others to use their streets and driveways then I say it's fine with me. If they have the room and want to pave over their yard, so be it, it's their property. I'm not going to worry about my property value. In fact if it goes down a bit - good - less property tax.

I don't know the situation, but maybe the person needs the income but doesn't have the capitol to rent or own in a commercial building.

I think in many cases this country has a false sense of neighborhood with the McMansions with no sidewalks and concrete shopping jungles that do nothing but tie up land, make everyone drive and cause traffic jams.

[Patiod]

35. But that's exactly it - in this area there are NO businesses

offices, services, professional offices, IT support companies or personal service businesses in this neighborhood. None. Maybe someone has an ebay business, or something else that doesn't involve customers coming and going and chemicals being cooked up. It's a nice neighborhood with moms using the sidewalks for strollers, and old people walking their dogs, and kids playing in the street. They don't need all customers zooming in and out of a business.

As far as "if it goes down, good, less property tax" - the tax is based on an assessment, and tax would have nothing to do with actual sale price plummeting because you have a smelly business next door (have you ever GOTTEN a perm? have you ever GOTTEN your hair highlighted? Somehow, your screen name makes me think you may be unfamiliar with just how appalling smelly beauty parlors are :P ) The fan blowing these fumes out of the beaty parlor would be about 15 yards from my parents' living room window and their deck.

I don't mind living in a mixed use neighborhood - that's what I bargained for when I moved where I live - I WANT to walk to the diner and the library. But that's not what my parents paid for when they moved in, and they shouldn't have to have it all change because one young girl doesn't want to pay rent to have a business in an area that's zoned commercial.

[CottonBear]

37. Many ordinances prohibit over 25% of front lawn area being paved parking.

% will vary by community and ordinance.

[CottonBear]

7. Then you'd be OK if your neighbor put up a confederate flag?

It happened in my neighborhood and our homeowners association rules required its removal (thank goodness.) Me and all of my neighbors, especailly the black and gay neighbors, were very offended by the racist, young frat boy type who put up that flag. (I'm in a blue city in GA.)

[SmokingJacket]

11. I wouldn't like it, but I could counter with my peace flag. nt

[bperci108]

14. Just some food for thought for you...

...I think you should check out the the controversy of the people in Meade, Kansas being harassed by the locals for flying a rainbow flag. It was a gift from their 12 year old son, who has no idea of it's significance to the LGBT community, but the local bigots are having an aneurysm over it and are trying to ruin these people and run them out of town.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=28650

So in reference to your confederate flag question: Yes - Let the asshole fly it.

Free Speech isn't really free unless it applies to everyone, even confederate flag-flying dipshits. :hippie:

[CottonBear]

18. I read about the Kansas situation.

In reference to the Confederate flag, it's not allowed in our neighborhood and that's OK with us. We live in a blue city and we have a diverse and progressive community.

The idiot boy (his Republican real estate agent parents from a red county bought him a townhome in our neighborhood so he could live there during college, drink and drive and be really loud and awful. Thank god he moved before he killed someone while drunk driving. I saw him and his friends driving with open containers off of our private streets and onto public roadways. Oh yeah, he was underage too. He was a racist and an idiot.

I live here in GA and the freaking Confederate flag is everywhere including on our state flag, frat boys cars, hats and signs and even ads for various businesses. It's not unreasonable to choose to live in a place where one can be free from racist flags. The young man could have covered his car with confederate flag stickers if he wished. He just could not fly the stars and bars.

If you wish to live next to flag waving, neo-confederates, all one has to do is move to a red county nearby here.

[bperci108]

29. I understand it was a violation of the covenant, or some such...

...but my point was that flags shouldn't be allowed or disallowed based on "content". IOW-if Old Glory is permitted, then the Stars and Bars should be, too.

I certainly wouldn't agree with the "politics" of the above-mentioned nitwit, but what would happen if I flew my red and black Anarcho-Syndicalist Flag on May 1, or Labor Day, or on the day of the Haymarket Massacre?

I'm sure the homeowners' association would snivel and demand it be removed. :cry:

I just can't see subjecting yourself to such draconian and arbitrary rules and covenants, and paying a premium to do it.

But to each his/her own.... :eyes:

[CottonBear]

16. No one is forced to purchase a home with a neighborhood association.

It's a free country.

One of my (gay) neighbors just moved from the nearby, rural red county where he grew up in order to escape from his rude, redneck neighbors. He moved into my neighborhood (non-gated but with an association that has been in place since 1970.)

[SmokingJacket]

39. I'm not calling for them to be illegal.

I just think it's unfortunate that people feel the need to band together to control their neighbors.

I live next door to a church. As a non-religious person, I have no great interest in the well-being of their organization, but recently some other neighbors tried to drive them out of our "residential" neighborhood on the grounds that their on-street parking was a nuisance. Like, once or twice a week?? Whatever happened to live and let live? Do these neighbors think they own the street? Why do they believe that their access to convenient, 24/7 parking for guests (eveyone here has a driveway at least for their own cars) trump other people's right to go to church?

Fortunately this is an older neighborhood so any association that gets together won't have any power -- we were here first. ;-)

To me it's always been an important part of being an American that we don't force our neighbors to conform to our particular ideas about how to live -- and granted, everyone has the right to move into a development that dictates what color you paint your house and how often you mow your lawn... but I wish our society would move in a direction more tolerant of individual difference.

[CottonBear]

42. Is the church a relatively new land use in the neighborhood?

Usually zoning ordinances require that any new churches, schools and/or daycare centers are to be allowed only as conditional or special uses in single-family residential areas. Restrictions on lighting, traffic ingress-egress, parking and building size are typical. The planning commission dn then elected officials must approve such uses.

However, if the church is an older (grandfathered) use then there is no problem that I can see. Unless people are parking where there are yellow curbs or blocking driveways or fire lanes then there's no problem. The public right-of-way is for the public use and on-street parking is a public use. Any parking problems are a transportation dept. or code enforcement issue.

My neighborhood is in a college town and there are many problems with student renters here. (I was a student once and not all students are bad neighbors but when there are 35,000 of them, some do turn out to be awful neighbors. Of course, their parents and the absentee landlords are to blame as well.) There is a zoning ordinance that in single-family areas no more than two un-related people can live together. (Thus preventing the 4-6 students in an animal house situation in a otherwise nice quiet neighborhood.)

My neighborhood has a rule that the owner must occupy the home. In other words, you can't move and rent your home to, for instance an 18 year old student. If you move, you have to sell. We do have some college students and graduate students who have lived here who were very nice. They either bought the home or their parents bought it with them (both names must be on the deed.) Those students were fine and very responsible. Keep in mind that there are 1,000s of dorm rooms and 1,000s of apartments, duplexes, lofts and houses in both single-family and non-single-family neighborhoods in this city. Not every neighborhood needs to be a student slum. Ours is not and we like it that way. The social dynamics, housing patterns and bad-student caused quality of life problems of a major university town are very different than those in other cities.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Right on.

I'm so happy to live where I can do largely what I want.

It's no one's business but my own what color I paint my friggin house. A color that I'd be perfectly happy with if given the choice would be wretched if it were chosen by my busybody neighbors and their quasi-governmental club.

[CanuckAmok]

2. Thank goodness! I was just saying that you guys need more flag-waving.

Didn't I just say that, like two days ago?

[napi21]

4. I think you should be able to fly the flag whenever you want.

I never lived in a gated community, but I did live in what Texas called a planned community and we did have a Homeowners assoc. They had some rules like not allowing those great big satellite dishes in your yard, no unlicensed cars in your yard, and things like that, but I happen to think those are a good thing.

I can't imagine why any of them would forbid flying a flag, unless it referrs to 100 ft. flag polls or something. Hmmmm

[Patiod]

10. The guy who got the ball rolling lived in a condo assn that forbid

flying the flag except for on 7 specific days. He thought he should be able to put it out ANY day (only a standard-sized American flag -- the size of which is spelled out in the legislation).

[RamboLiberal]

15. I'm among those who would never live in a home in a

neighborhood/homeowners association. I'm sorry, but unless my home is a nuisance or a health/neighborhood hazard or affects something on your property, I don't think it's any of your damn business what trees, bushes, flags, lawn ornaments, lawn appearance(short of being a jungle), pool, fencing, vehicle (except junkers) I park in my garage or driveway, color I paint my house, etc.

And that some of these stupid homeowner's associations require fee paid membership, have rulebooks where the board is like little Nazi's quoting the rule, can fine a homeowner for every little infraction - well I find that fascist and un-American. I'm surprised to find DU'ers that like this kind of thing. There are some elderly people who have lost their homes on the account of these associations which I find truly heartless.

I figured those that love these associations - especially the ones run by little former prom queens and kings and little facists - would be the Repubs who just love spying on the personal lives of everyone else and telling them how to live.

[CottonBear]

20. I live in one and I think you are overreacting. Every place is different.

I've never known of any associations like you describe and I live in a medium sized urban area.

My homeowners association is very professional and reasonable and democratic. It has been around since 1970. My neighborhood is diverse and progressive. Our property values are stable and our neighborhood is a really nice place.

To each his or her own.

[Patiod]

21. It's probably a case of some bad apples spoiling the image

Most are probably very sensible. The wife in a couple my parents are friends with is the enforcer for her homeowners association, and she practically cackled with glee as she talked about bringing around paint swatches to make sure people had painted their trash enclosures the correct shade of beige. That seems a little out of hand. And I visited a friend in Phoenix, arrived in town late, and didn't want to block their driveway, since they were both leaving for work in the morning, so I parked on the street in front of their house - at 7am, there was a warning on my car saying they would be fined if there were any more such violations. So yes, people can take things a little far.

But a well-run, reasonable homeowners association would be exactly what my parents could use right now, with the neighbors selling to their RE agent's daughter, who wants to open a beauty parlor in the house a 100% residential suburban development in order to afford the extremely large mortgage they'll need.

[CottonBear]

24. See my post #22.

I can possibly help to answer some of your questions regarding home occupations. You need to meet with the local planning staff and see exactly which home occupations are allowed and what the limit on cpacity or clients is. The Zoning and Subdivision Ordinace should address this issue. Do they need to apply for a variance or is it allowed by right or by right WITH a planning department permit?

[RamboLiberal]

27. I seen some of the crap with local homeowner's assoc

in my area with my coworkers. I monitor the company email and till we got a new spam filter the emails from some members of a coworkers home owners board were getting stuck. As I checked to see if I should deliver to recipient I couldn't help but notice the picayune stuff they argued about like the type of shrubs someone planted, or the vehicles parked in a driveway, the fence someone put up, some kids playing paintball in the woods, etc. It was nuts IMHO.

Another coworker has hours he can't have his garage door open and be sitting in his own garage.

Sorry, I just don't like neighbors telling me how to live. I won't annoy you if you don't annoy me.

[CottonBear]

28. That sounds like a completely different kind of neighborhood than mine.

Anywhoo, your co-worker can move any time. It's a free country.

[RamboLiberal]

31. Yeah you can move but it seems all these new developments

have associations or gated communities. Where I grew up we didn't need rules for everyone to keep up their home and be neighbors - but then that was the like the "Wonder Years".

Anybody remember the hilarious story Randi Rhodes told about living in a house in Florida when she was married and the homeowner's assoc made them go through the expense of changing the extior paint that the builder originally painted it and had been approved by the HA. I think she said the house looked like a big hot dog or something.

I just don't think an HA should have to make the homeowner have to shell out money for some piddly reason like they think the paint scheme is ugly. Maybe I think it's beautiful. Hell maybe the neighborhood could use some color and not be so drab. I love individualists who come up with some wild color schemes.

[CottonBear]

38. I don't know where you live but that is no the case where I live.

My part of Georgia must be very different than Florida or the Northeast or the Southwest. Maybe the problems that y'all are talking about are in big cities like Atlanta or in its Republican suburbs.

Honestly, I am amazed and dumbfounded by the reaction of DUers regarding the topic of homeowners associations.

Most single-family neighborhoods in my area are older (subdivisions from the 1950s-1970s or old in town neighborhoods which date from the 1800s.) There are newer developments too and some condo developments. There are very few gated communities. In fact, I can only think of one major gated upscale subdivision in my county. Some older single-family subdivisions have neighborhood associations that were formed many years after the subdivisions were fully developed. They organize things like printing a phone directory for the neighborhood, holiday decorations on street signs and dealing with zoning intrusions around the neighborhood area. In town neighborhoods are very organized around the issues of historic preservation and zoning intrusions that threaten historic districts. Neighborhoods and residents can sign up with the planning dept. to get automatic e-mail updates about zoning issues and applications for rezonings, etc. In fact, we have a neighborhood planner who does nothing but work with the homeowners groups.

My neighborhood's association has been in place since 1970. Our rules are not unreasonable and help to maintain our property values. We have all sorts of people who live here (young, old, black, white, gay, straight, with kids and without...) and we all get along just fine. And, we have many different colored houses here! I chose my new colors when house was repainted. One of my neighbors has an eggplant purple door and another one has a very nice blue door and another has a peach door.

To each his own. I like my little in-town neighborhood. I can walk to banks, restaurants and shopping, churches, schools and it's on the bus line.

[Book Lover]

33. Pardon me, but how free a country is it when your neighbors

have a mechanism by which they can levy fines on you if they don't like the color of your house? I guess I just don't understand how your HA has benefited you.

[CottonBear]

36. We don't have fines for colors. In fact we can choose almost any color!

My neighbors have white, bright blue, aqua, plum , dark green, beige, rust, yellow and royal blue homes among the more standard shades.

We live in a town home neighborhood. We individualize our similar style homes with colors and landscaping and gardens. The variety and color and design of each home's exterior is what we love about our little community!

[RamboLiberal]

34. How about the ones who can fine homeowners then

foreclose on their home if they can't/won't pay the fines? I say beware of any HOA who can fine you money!

For example:

A man from Rancho Santa Fe, Calif., lost his home because he planted too many roses on his four-acre site. The board fined him and watched monthly as the fines mounted.

When they slapped a lien on his home, he went to court and lost because he'd transgressed the board's architectural design rules. He was stuck with the board's $70,000 legal fees and lost his home to the bank.

A woman from Pomona, Calif., who was involved in a divorce fell behind with her monthly dues. The board said she owed $1,000; she said it was less than $800, and they went to court when the board threatened foreclosure.

The woman was right -- the volunteer board's amateur accountants goofed, but the judge ruled she should have made back payments during the dispute, anyway, and the therapist was handed a $22,000 legal bill.

A Maryland man asked for a six-foot fence as protection from a neighbor who'd attacked him with a log. The board denied the request, so the homeowner sued -- and lost. It cost him $23,000 in legal fees and interest.

Chastened, he built a shorter fence, but in places it was several inches taller than the four feet allowed. Board members came with a tape measure, fined him, slapped a lien on the home and seized the man's paycheck. "They took all my savings and treated me like a common criminal," he says.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/real-estate/HOA-horrors1.asp

[Lefty48197]

17. Does this end the "War on Flag Flying"?

Or will we revisit this every time Republicans in the future don't want to talk about the issues?

[Patiod]

23. It was actually on the back page of the paper

Some poor older guy who wanted to fly his flag more than 7 days a year. No big political PR.