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Either you're pro war or you're not. You can't be for one and not another

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boolean Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:17 PM
Original message
Either you're pro war or you're not. You can't be for one and not another
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 02:20 PM by boolean
Everyone here who supports the Iraq war raise your hand. Now everyone who supports what Israel is doing, raise your hand.

I notice more people raised their hands on the second one.

"But Israel has good reason to!", you say. So did bush when he invaded Iraq. WMD was a good reason. It turned out to be false, but it was a good reason. Then when the WMD claim turned out to be false, he switched to "Saddam was bad". Also a good reason. Spreading democracy in the mideast? A good reason. There are many "good reasons" for war. The people of North Korea are starving because of a brutal dictator. The people of Darfur are being systematically wiped off the face of the Earth. The Chinese and the Cubans are oppressed. Vietnam. Somalia. Kosovo. There are so many places where there's good reason for war.

It's not about whether or not there's reason for war. It's about whether or not war will solve anything. From the beginning of the 20th century, 99% of the time war has never solved anything. Count 'em. World War 1 didn't solve anything. In fact, it can be argued that Hitler would never have even come to power had WW1 not happened. The crippling sanctions after WW1 that plunged Germany into economic ruin was precisely why Hitler was able to scapegoat the Jews and gain popular support. Fast forward a little bit after the end of WW2, the supposedly "successful" war where freedom won over tyranny. Yeah, right.

It was after WW2, (which happened because of WW1) that the Brits carved up the Middle East, conveniently drawing lines around where the oil was. (Kuwait). Had WW2 never happened, Israel wouldn't even be there. But it did happen and Israel was drawn on the map and the Arab countries all around it decided they didn't like that. So then they started another war. They invaded Israel and they lost and once again, what the fuck did the war accomplish? Nada. Zero. Zilch.

Vietnam. Another war. No positive outcome. Iran/Iraq war. No positive outcome. Pakistan vs. India over Kashmir. Still stupidly going. Civil war in Sri Lanka. Not over yet.

How many wars can you count on your fingers that actually had any benefit whatsoever? Kosovo, maybe? The fucking revolutionary and civil war? There aren't that many of them. It's almost as if human history has reached a point where war, once a useful method of dispute resolution, has become obsolete. War used to be between enlisted armies killing one another over whatever reason(s) there may have been. Sometimes the reasons were valid and the war was necessary. But civilians were left out of that (for the most part). It was one army on one side of the field and another army on the other. That all changed with modern warfare, where planes can drop bombs without any regard to the civilians caught in the middle.

How, exactly, is what Israel is doing right now going to improve the situation in the middle east? If they're trying to convince the people of Lebanon that it was Hezbollah that blew up their homes, it's not going to work.

This is the 21st century. War is not necessary anymore. The globe has become too small and the bombs have become too big. The entire human race must stand up to the old warmongers on every side. You just can't justify it anymore. We're not living in an age where bows and arrows and swords are used. We can communicate with one another easier than ever before. Gone are the days when you had to send a horse with a message. We have translators to overcome language barriers. We have modern communication. Why couldn't bush give Saddam a call? Talk it out. What is it about these old men that they can't remember the lessons they learned in kindergarten? I don't really believe war exists anymore in this day and age. Today one country can comfortably sit on its ass and watch as another country gets blown to bits on TV. How is that a war? It's not war, it's terrorism.

When Osama had planes flown into 3 buildings on September 11, 2001, that was not war. It was terrorism. How is lobbing smart bombs into Baghdad any different? How are missiles being dropped in Lebanon any different from rockets being fired into Haifa? None of this is war. It's ALL terrorism. And it's all being perpetrated not by the civilians, but by the old warmongering farts currently running the world. Bush, Osama, Saddam, Ehud, Abdullah, take your pick. They're all a bunch of old men protecting their resources by convincing young people to terrorize.

Osama would never dare blow himself up. He's too rich. Bush would never pick up a gun and go fight himself. Saddam would rather hide in a hole in the ground than put on a kevlar vest and raise hell with the best of 'em. Yasser preferred to chill out at home while enemy troops surrounded his mansion. These are all a bunch of old rich narcissistic asshats who are very good at convincing many (and I'm pointing at YOU!) that "war" is necessary. It can be seen in this very forum, where the same people who are against the Iraq war have no problem with Israel's actions.

Ask yourself: How were you convinced? How did the old men sway you to support the killing of civilians?

I was struck by the article on Gore Vidal that was linked from here a few days ago. Vidal said it best: There is no war on terror. It's like a war on dandruff. It doesn't exist. It's advertising. The old men are advertising and people are falling for it. War itself is terror. War doesn't exist anymore today, only terror does. It's time for us, the pawns in this game that the farts are playing, to stand together and demand an end to this nonsense. If we allow them to continue to play this silly little game, we're all dead. It only takes one nuclear weapon to ignite the end of the human race itself.

To get back to my subject line, I ask everyone here this: Are you pro war or not?

I'm not.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
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NJ Democrats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. I agree
This post is complete bullshit.
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great post
Feels very Howard Zinnish.

Recommended.
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Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sez you.
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 02:26 PM by Drum
Tell me what you think.

Don't presume to tell me what I may---or "can't"---think.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. I wish it were that simple...
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 02:27 PM by hlthe2b
I also wish I had time for a detailed response. While I generally agree with your thesis, when one considers the scenario (generic scenario, not referring to any specific current event) where ones country is literally being invaded by another, I can't deny a need to fight back....:shrug:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. Some people aren't pacifists
People who are complete pacifists, fine, I respect their belief system. You seem to be requiring people to choose, pacifist or pro-every war.

Somebody who would support military action if this country were literally invaded by another, is not a pacifist.

Seeing the difference between WMD lies and written vows to destroy a people and their country does not make a person pro-every war.

So, would you support military action if another country invaded your county??
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not true. I supported Afghanistan, WWII, and Bosnia
Those were "good" wars as opposed to wars for cash or fascist ideology.
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MoseyWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. Isn't it odd that liberals
are supposed to be the ones with relativistic ideas, yet the "moralistic" minority has so many contradictions within their "belief" system that one would have to be a mental contortionist to have it remotely make sense?

Pro life yet pro war

the party of fiscal responsibility that has quadrupled the deficits

the party of abe lincoln, yet 92% or more of the black americans vote Dem

believe that tax cuts for the wealthy will somehow magically help the poor

I could go on................
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. I liked the way our war in the former Yugoslavia was done, with it's...
...success, it's low cost, and it's zero US combat fatalities.

I'm not against all wars.

I'm against waging stupid costly scam wars of aggression, and I'm against committing crimes against humanity.

For those reasons I oppose both our war on Iraq, and Israel's war on Lebanon.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. I guess when you put it that way I am Pro War.
May God have Mercy on My Soul.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. So being anti-war, you must be pro-genocide
we should have stayed out of Kosovo?

*sings* Bless the beasts, and the children...
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. You're heart's in the right place, I guess.
But you're wrong about a couple of things. First, the middle-east's modern history really begins after WWI with the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, not after WWII. Second, there's just no moral case to be made that the world should not have gone to war against Hitler and Nazi Germany. There may not be any such thing as a "good" war, but some wars are necessary--WWII really was a case in which the survival of nations and ethnicities were at stake. You can, perhaps, blame Hitler's rise to power on the excesses of Versailles, but blaming the victims for Nazi Germany's aggression and the several genocides Hitler undertook is just wrong-headed, IMO.
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SutaUvaca Donating Member (472 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. Pro war or not?
Not.

Rather a profound a statement by Vidal: "there is no war on terror......It's advertising."
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. Boolean is a good username
with your black and white thinking.

Unfortunately, real life isn't that easy - we don't usually have two distinct choices when confronted with complicated issues like war.
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boolean Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. WE or THEY?
See this is what I'm talking about.

Is it you who sends people to war, or the old man with the money and the power? What if nobody listened to them?

They're advertising to you. Meanwhile, you'll be the one to die.
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Who is this nebulous "THEY" of which you write?
And why are you trying to lump me in with them? You seem to be blaming me for "send people to war", the insinuation being that war deaths are on my head. In your final paragraph, the implication is that I'm a naive idiot who is going to die. Definitely bizarre thinking...

Some war will always be necessary, and true pacifism, while admirable, is impossible. There are large swaths of gray in between your black and white choice of Warmonger and Pacifist.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. bogus logic - see: abortion
believing that war is sometimes justified/necessary does not make one "pro war" any more than believing abortion is sometimes justified (it's justified when the woman chooses it imo) makes one "pro abortion"

you are using the EXACT same false logic that those who are against reproductive choice make in regards to abortion

how typical

it also flies in the face of reality

war, unfortunately, is sometimes necessary, and is sometimes better than the consequences of not going to war

that's reality

and believing war is sometimes
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. Selective examples at best...
Your arguments contradict each other...

WW1 - crippling sanctions occurred AFTER the war was over.
WW2 - Israel occurred AFTER the war was over.

It wasn't the war, it was the diplomatic decisions made afterward that were the problems. By your arguments, we should fight the diplomats who screw everything up after the fighting is over.

As for no good comes out of a war, well, that's wrong too...

WW2 did end a horrific Holocaust and lead to the ultimate demise of the colonial system throughout the world.
Probably should have had a military action in Rwanda.
Military should have gone into Bosnia sooner.
Civil war erased slavery and reunited the country
Revolutionary war ended foreign rulers for our country

You don't have to be "pro-war" to recognize that it can be an viable option of last resort. It's just that sometimes it's used when other options are still available.



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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. So are you saying that if a country came in and launched bombs
at America that the U.S. Government should just sit back and say "Oh well. They were just being mischievous."? I believe thar every country not only has a right, but an obligation to defend it's citizens against the aggressors. Does that make me a war monger? According to your simplistic subject line, I guess I am.
Let me make this very very clear. I am against the Iraq war because it was illegal from the very start. It would be great if all war would end forever as of thias minute. But that is simply not going to happen. 99% of the people on this planet likely do not want war, but it has been going on since the beginning of time. In fact, this very country was founded because of a...war. People wanting to be free from tyranny. That type of attitude still exists today all over the world. For that reason alone, there will always be wars.
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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. I agree with the conclusion but not the reasons
First of all, we all have equal value. So, the measure of what is acceptable should be what you would do to your own town. Under what circumstance would you bomb your own town to deal with people who are doing something you consider unacceptable.

If someone in your town is shooting missiles at you, the solution obviously isn't to obliterate your own town, since if you are okay with obliterating your town, you should also be okay with the less extreme situation of someone in your town shooting missiles at you in your town.

Some military action is necessary some times, and it depends on the circumstance. But the general case applies that it is immoral to commit acts based on the idea that people are less valuable because they live in a different area.

The notion that you can give rights to a government to justify killing of people subject to other governments just because they are under a different government is flawed.

If you imagine there are a group of violent people killing people in order to conquer them, until they manage to seize some territory and end up being able to call themselves a country. How was it that the killing was wrong when they were trying to conquer people, but then it becomes okay once they have succeeded? Is the rationale that terror is wrong until you terrorize people enough that they submit, after which you are justified to rule by terror and keep challengers to your conquest away with more terror? Nonsense.




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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. There is aboslutely no difference between the Iraq war and Israel's
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