The real issue with Castro....

[HEyHEY]

And his possible death. Is that the world is going through some spooky changes right now. And if Castro dies it gives the USA an excuse to fuck with Cuba's domestic affairs. You never know, it could get violent there again.
Everything comes full circle.
I not the kind of person to believe in doomsday... But I will say this. The world is going to get much uglier before it gets much better.

[Sadie5]

1. Been thinking the same thoughts myself

But how many more countries are the GOP going to stick their noses into. Everywhere Bush goes a war follows.

[jpkenny]

28. I have been trying to start a thread to discuss the Cuba/Fidel situation

but can't for some reason. Nevertheless, I am very concrened that Fidel's death would incite a civil war as the FL exiles (never figured out why people who left voluntarily are called "exiles") return enmasse with US backing and weapons to take over the Island nation.

[napi21]

2. Some things I don't understand about Cuba.

I realize Fidel is a nasty guy and lots of people want him gone, one way or another, but since the announcement of his emergency surgury, I've heard sever things I don't understand.

1. The Coast Guard has enacted a long standing plan to monitor the waters between Cuba and Fl. because they are expecting a mass exodus of people fleeing Cuba to the US is Castro dies. WHY? If they don't like him, and he's gone, why do they still want to leae?

2. Cuban exiles in Fl are expected to go back to Cuba to get relatives and families to return the the US if Fidel dies. WHY? If they love Cuba as they always say they do, why wouldn't they want to return to Cuba and stay?

3. Is it REALLY that bad in Cuba now? I keep hearing about people from the US sneaking a flight fromMexico or somewhere outside the US to vacation in Cuba. They say it's a beautiful place and love to go there. If THAT's true, why are all the complainers screaming about how BAD it is there?

Anyone know the answes?

[zeemike]

6. About the Cuban exiles

Most of the ones that came here right after the revolution are the elite of the Batista regime. My guess is that if we invade Cuba they will go back and be the puppet government for us just like they were before the revolution.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. That's what I was about to ask...

how many of them are Batista supporters...

[Uppanotch]

8. answers

1. The Coast Guard has enacted a long standing plan to monitor the waters between Cuba and Fl. because they are expecting a mass exodus of people fleeing Cuba to the US is Castro dies. WHY? If they don't like him, and he's gone, why do they still want to leae?

The U.S. Coast Guard is more likely a staging group for a potential U.S. invasion. The Coast Guard is there to provide intelligence for the invaders.

2. Cuban exiles in Fl are expected to go back to Cuba to get relatives and families to return the the US if Fidel dies. WHY? If they love Cuba as they always say they do, why wouldn't they want to return to Cuba and stay?

Propaganda ploy by the U.S. to help sell the idea that Cuba is so bad under Castro that even people that love Cuba want to leave the country.

3. Is it REALLY that bad in Cuba now? I keep hearing about people from the US sneaking a flight fromMexico or somewhere outside the US to vacation in Cuba. They say it's a beautiful place and love to go there. If THAT's true, why are all the complainers screaming about how BAD it is there?

Because the complainers have a special interest: they want the U.S. to restore a Bastista-like U.S. puppet regime like in Iraq. Later, there will be rigged elections and the winner will "just happen to be" a U.S. approved right-winger.

[eomer]

11. Re: "even people that love Cuba want to leave the country."

I know quite a few people who love Cuba but chose to leave it. Are you saying that idea is a myth?

[napi21]

17. NO. I said I don't understand because there seems to be two

opposing opinions. Usually when that happens, one is right and one isn't. I don't know ANY Cubans, so I have no reference point. Even the DUers who answered me have differing opinions if you read them. Some say it's propaganda from the US gov't. THAT sure wouldn't surprise me!!!!

If I offended you, I didn't intend to do that. I'm just trying to find out what really is going on and why.

[eomer]

31. I appreciate that and am sorry if it seemed like I snapped at you.

I can see that you are sincerely seeking information.

I've lived in Miami for almost three decades, my wife is Cuban and has lots of family here, so I know a lot of Cubans.

Maybe it is counterintuitive but the Cubans that left Cuba to live here in Miami love Cuba to a fault.

Unfortunately it is also true that too many of them support Republican candidates. That is not always because they truly support the Republican agenda. It is mostly because they want a hard line against Castro and believe that Republicans will deliver a harder line than Democrats. But to think that Cuban exiles are universally neocon type Republicans would be totally incorrect. It seems that some posters in threads like this work very hard to convince that Cuban exiles are monster Batista-loving ultra elitists who just want to exploit the under classes. That characterization is probably true of a small minority but not of the vast majority. Just like you would expect in most populations, elitists are in the minority (by definition perhaps).

[eomer]

9. Here's what I think.

If the barriers to travel were lifted and if there were no longer a dictator in charge then you would see various individuals on both sides of the water making different decisions. Some from there would come here and some wouldn't. Some who are here would go back and some wouldn't. Different strokes, ...

One issue to take into account is that if the regime collapses, there would surely be a period of uncertainty and turmoil. There could be revenge and retribution. Some people might not be adventurous enough to go back at first but would want to later if and when things stablize.

With regard to how beautiful it is to vacation there, sure it is. But the expression "It's a nice place to vacation but I wouldn't want to live there" is applicable. Conditions in the hotels and restaurants for tourists are a different world than the everyday life of resident Cubans.

[Uppanotch]

15. Your message sounds like what rightwingers preach.

I've heard of rightwing Democrats, so I'm not assuming you're a Republican.

[eomer]

25. Do you mean the part about being a good place to vacation but not

a good place for those who live there?

I don't see how that is rightwing. It is just factual. Do you believe that Cuba is a good place for the people who live there now or sometime in the past 47 years?

I'm fervently opposed to dictators on the left and equally to dictators on the right.

I'm in favor of nationalized healthcare and think our current system is more of a skimming operation by the insurance companies than it is actual insurance.

I believe that we have lost control of our society to the corporations and that we are in great peril if we do not somehow get it back.

I believe that we are in the grips of fascism and that the difference between this and a dictatorship is mostly smoke and mirrors.

I am pro-choice.

I am a feminist (a male who is strongly in favor of women having equal rights).

I am in favor of gay rights, including marriage.

I am an agnostic who leans toward atheism.

I am in favor of stem cell research.

I believe in science.

I could go on but you get the picture. I am progressive in just about every way that I know of.

I am not rightwing.

But Castro is a vicious dictator and Cuba is a sorry place to live while his regime is in power.

We do not have to choose Castro or choose Bush. The answer lies somewhere in between.

[Uppanotch]

30. The Bush Doctrine.

Yes, yes...but. "I believe in everything...but at the same time blah blah."

[eomer]

32. Speaking of blah blah...

you haven't actually stated anything in my post that you specifically disagree with.

Clue me in on what statement you take issue with and we can discuss it.

[TahitiNut]

24. "... a different world than the everyday life of resident ..."

Gee ... sure sounds like a condemnation to me! I guess that works, since it's so often repeated.

However ...

How is that different from Acapulco?
How is that different from Wakiki Beach?
How is that different from Avenue George V?
How is that different from Bali?
How is that different from Rio De Janiero?
How is that different from Montego Bay and Ocho Rios?
How is that different from Beijing (popular with Wal*Mart executives)?
How is that different from Hong Kong?
How is that different from Tahiti?


Travel much? :eyes:

[eomer]

27. The original point I responded to was this:

They say it's a beautiful place and love to go there. If THAT's true, why are all the complainers screaming about how BAD it is there?

My counterpoint is that a country can have beautiful resorts and still be a terrible place for most of the people who live there. And not only can it be a terrible place, I also say that it is a terrible place for the people who live there.

I'm not clear what you're saying. Do you think that Cuba is a great place for the people who live there?

[TahitiNut]

33. It's a nonsense question

You ask "Do you think that Cuba is a great place for the people who live there?"

For many, many people, I think the answer is "yes."

That said, I don't think there are many places in the world where one couldn't gather interminable evidence, either economic or human rights or even climate, to counter the "great place" claim - which itself is hyperbolic.

I happen to love Tahiti and Tahitians. The people of French Polynesia have lots of complaints against the French and, despite some very protectionist laws, the usual list of economic laments. For some Americans who think life can't go on without TV, Internet, air conditioning, fast food, and Wal*Mart, it wouldn't be a "great place" unless they were very affluent. For me, who always spent lots of my time with Tahitians and visiting the neighborhoods, I could deal with it in an instant. A nanosecond. But I hate 'fashion' and like sandals and have little problem working at the subsistence level - or teaching.

Look at the incredibly vast amount of poverty surrounding the playgrounds of the "rich and famous." Look at the mind-boggling poverty in "the largest democracy in the world": India.

When we're reminiscing about pre-Castro Cuba, many people's heads are filled with images of sunny beaches, well-heeled casino-goers, cigars, high fashion, posh nightclubs and hotels, and party-party-party ... and rarely recall the virtual slave labor of the sugar cane plantations and enormous degree of illiteracy and substandard medical services.

The publishing/media empires of the capitalist west are terrific in portraying the fantasy land of materialism. Movies, TV shows, magazines, and newspapers flood the world with advertising the religion of materialism. We're still buying Manhattan for brightly-colored beads.

Hell, we're still peddling "some day my Prince will come" (fairy-tale Monarchism) through Disney (and the Princess Di industry)!

[eomer]

34. I'm with you on most of the background part of that.

But I still don't agree that Cuba is a great place for many, many people. Just because it has a forcible lack of materialism doesn't mean that the other aspects of life are good.

People there cannot read whatever they would like to, cannot write whatever they would like to, cannot speak freely in public and not always even in the privacy of their home.

Can you choose whatever book you'd like to read and just read it? If you couldn't would it bother you?

It's not just about, not even mostly about, materialism.

One point though that I guess is a materialistic problem. The people I know that came recently from there could not always provide food for their children at a subsistence level. And during those times when they could, it was only because they resorted to means that were officially criminal according to the government. So to feed their children they had to be in fear that someone in the comite del barrio would find some reason to turn them in.

[TahitiNut]

35. Is 10 million people who're illiterate and can't read ANY book any better?

That's the record of that bastion of capitalist liberty south of our border. Perhaps an illiteracy rate of 33% in Nicaraqua is preferred?

What's worse - a few banned books or 10-50% of the population without basic literacy?

What's worse - the rate of imprisonment in the US or the rate in Cuba?

"Well, as long as it's not me ... "

As I said, people can collect "evidence" and argue interminably. Part of the 'problem' is we're inundated with myths ... and freely pick the better fruit from one basket while pointing to the worse fruit in the other.

[eomer]

36. So I have to choose between basic human rights and literacy?

That is a hard choice.

Any chance you'd allow me to choose both or are they somehow mutually exlusive?

[TahitiNut]

37. Which is the 'right' - being able to read A book or ANY book?

Which is the greater infringement on a "basic human right" - denial of the ability to read specific books or the denial of the ability to read ANY books?

Does a "basic human right" exist as long as some have it and some don't? Can a "basic human right" be for only those able to afford it?

Would it be better if we discussed health care? :eyes:

[eomer]

38. I'm 100% with you on the failings of a rightwing approach.

I just don't think the solution is an authoritarian regime, leftist or otherwise.

Regarding health care, it is routine for Cubans to not get basic medicines and even bedsheets during a hospital stay unless they bring it themselves and many of them depend on Miami relatives to provide basic prescription drugs. I agree with the universal coverage aspect of it but other than that it is not so good. And let me agree in advance that our medical insurance system in this country is disgraceful but I think there are other models in other places that are superior to both ours and Cuba's.

Is there some other country you've come across in your extensive travels that doesn't control what people read but also provides a free education to all citizens? Is there a country that doesn't control what people can say but still provides universal healthcare? I don't accept your dichotomy.

[TahitiNut]

39. Denmark?

:shrug:

Literacy - 100% (6th out of over 200 countries)
Low infant mortality (168th of 179 countries)
High life expectancy - 77.1 years (49th of 224 countries)
High GDP - $44,742.82 per capita (5th of 184 countries)
EXCELLENT Distribution of family income - Gini index of 24.7 (111st of 113 countries)
Human Development Index - 0.941 (14th of 178 countries)
Low Unemployment rate - 6.2% (140th of 197 countries)

and

Manual vote-counting technology nationwide.

[eomer]

40. Good enough.

Why do we have to accept totalitarianism in order to get social programs? Denmark proves that we do not.

[TahitiNut]

41. Well, Denmark also has the highest number of work days missed

... due to labor strikes. They have a very strong labor union culture and respect for labor. (This has NOT impoverished their capitalists, however. Not even close.)

My family has a close personal friendship with a Danish family in the "ownership class."

Denmark also has one of the lower rates of spending on its military (1.4% of its GDP), ranking it 122 of 165 countries.

You want to know who's the lowest with 0%?? Cuba, 165th of 165.

[RagingInMiami]

10. Answers

1. When Castro dies, it's not like Cuba is suddenly going to become paradise. There will most likely be a violent transition, and this is only from within the island. Furthermore, many Cubans are not allowed to leave Cuba, which is why they have to sneak off on rafts and converted boatcars. Many have family members that live in the U.S. which they would like to visit. Many would just like to live in the U.S. after living under its shadow for so long.

2. Most are not willing to give up a house, career, friends and family to return to a country that will be going through an unpredictable transition where there is no guarantee that they will be able to maintain the same lifestyle.

3. Cuba is a beautiful place to visit, but for many Cubans, it is a society that comes with limited freedoms. They are not allowed to leave Cuba unless they go through a complexity of bureaucracies, and even then, they still may be denied permission to leave. They may have free healthcare and education, but doctors bring home between $20-30 a month and many end up driving taxis to support their families.
And they are forbidden from mingling with tourists and entering the hotels, unless they have specific business doing so.

It is not the worst place to live on earth, but it is far from the perfect society.

[sgxnk]

12. the answer is obvious

"3. Is it REALLY that bad in Cuba now? I keep hearing about people from the US sneaking a flight fromMexico or somewhere outside the US to vacation in Cuba. They say it's a beautiful place and love to go there. If THAT's true, why are all the complainers screaming about how BAD it is there?"

um...

whether or not a nation is a great vacation site that offers FOREIGNERS great amenities is tangential to what the conditions for residents are

rio is a great place to visit. you wouldn't want to live in the slums there (one of the most violent and terrible places in the world)

cuba IS beautiful. cuba would make a great vacation. it does not follow that cuban citizens are treated well by the castro regime

the best proof of the way citizens are treated under castro is that they, in large #'s, are willing to risk a flimsy raft trip to get to the US, and that castro must criminally prosecute those who try to leave

[napi21]

20. OK, that makes sense. But if it's mostly the Castro regeim, if he

dies, would they THEN want to stay? At least the cable chanels are saying his brother is different , and even with that said, he probably will not be a long term leader.

I don't know much about the politics in Cuba, except it's been under Castro for many years. what happens when Fidel dies and his bro. either dies or just doesn't want the job anymore?

[sgxnk]

23. frankly

i have no idea

this is his brother. i don't know if it's a "king is dead, long live the king" thing or what

i really don't

i think many romanticize castro, much in the same way they romanticize che.

both scummy dictators imo

regardless, it's possible cuba could get better or worse or stay the same. i don't think anybody knows

not me certainly

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised...

if the Cuban people end up with the short end of the stick on this one.

[zeemike]

4. We agreed to hands off Cuba during the missile crisis

But if Castro dies this administration just may think that the deal is over and want to invade the country and give it back to it's (in there minds) rightful owners, the mafia and a few big corporations that owned it before the revolution.
The only question will be is what will Russia do about it.

[HEyHEY]

16. Nothing

What can they do?

[NashVegas]

5. Bay of Pigs II?

We don't have the military to spend on Cuba right now, all we can do is throw money at those who will push for change. If Cubans resist, there will be military action. It will be up to the Florida fascists if a shot gets fired or not.

[Jim Warren]

7. Oil men in the WH

Look no further, say no more that this:

U.S. cut off from Cuba's oil rush
http://ottsun.canoe.ca/Money/2006/07/31/1711204-sun.html

The real issue with bushco in Florida:

Senate moves forward on oil drilling in Gulf
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4084884.html

[ender]

13. plus the gambling!

and the tourist industry!

expect Cuba to turn into Las Vegas, Carribean when Castro dies.

[Jim Warren]

14. And the PROSTITUTION.............

NOW TO MENTION international money laudering and drug running.

Poppy bush just woke from his afternoon coma.

[RagingInMiami]

19. You don't think there is prostitution, money laundering and drug-running

happening in Cuba right now?

[Jim Warren]

22. To a degree, 'course

Just not controlled by the Carlyle Mob,....... er, Group.

[Spinoza]

21. So King Fidel

has handed over power to his brother, the Prince? Well,if His Majesty, (May God Preserve Him) after 47 years of blessed rule, were to depart this realm at least the Cuban people can be sure that the Monarchy will continue. LONG LIVE THE KING!

[HEyHEY]

26. Wooosshhhh

It's not about that.

[Cathyclysmic]

29. Diplomatically, anything that reeks of 'appeasement' or 'compromise'

to this administration is unacceptable. I agree with you.

Why do we have to fight the Cold war over again? Wasn't once enough?