Does Israel have a right to defend itself?

[Renew Deal]

[bryant69]

A more thorny question is what does israel have the right to do

to defend itself.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Renew Deal]

2. Right

At what point does it go beyond defense. In the Israeli's minds, this is a unique opportunity to squash Hezbollah. What it would take to do that is way beyond what most people find reasonable, but it looks like Israel is thinking that way.

[rock]

1. Obviously, Yes

Now we just have to decide what does and doesn't constitute "defense". bush*es attack on Iraq was "defense", so says the WH.

[Poll_Blind]

3. Again, Israel has the right to defend itself (Just as the Lebanese,

...Palestinians, Iranians, Japanese, Indians do). But for a nation with access to and an inventory of top-shelf U.S. military hardware (including laser-guided munitions, etc.) their intentional destruction of the Lebanese civilian infrastructure (and the Palestinian civilian infrastructure) can be described, charitably, as grotesque.

  The Israelis make no bones about their collective punishment of Lebanese, Palestinian civilian governments and infrastructure. Even if every Israeli attack on civilians was either accidental or the result of rogue-IDF soldiers (like "Kurdi Bear"), their destruction of the chambers of the hearts that help keep Palestinian and Lebanese people alive is uncontroversial and equally indefensible.

PB

[jobycom]

4. Yes, and so does Hezbollah. When someone is attacked, they have

the right to defend against that attack. No one has the right of a pre-emptive attack under the guise of self-defense, though. Not Iraq against Kuwait, not America against Iraq, not Israel against Hezbollah, not The Union against the Confederate States, not Nazi Germany against Austria and Poland and Czechoslovakia, not Japan against America at Pearl Harbor... no one.

[ginnyinWI]

5. what they are doing is not self defense

It's a punitive assault on a neighboring country which will only escalate the hatred, instability and violence in the region. They should have gone into talks with their neighbors instead, and we should have been there to help broker a peace. But president AWOL chose not to pay them any attention-- and so here we are.

[Critters2]

6. Israel has the right to defend itself

but defending itself should mean NOT depending on funds and weapons from the US. If we're defending Israel--and we are--Israel should stop claiming to defend itself.

[flyarm]

7. why is the question not..does every country have the right to defend

itself??

i suggest this is a piss poor question..it seems if Iraqi's are defending themselves against us..the occupiers..they become insurgents..

but if Isreal is bombing its neighbor..they are defending themselves...even if they are bombing the shit out of innocent civilians..and children

its all in the framing of the question..and who the framers are!

oh, and as an aside..i have many jewish friends who have no problem telling me over and over again that Lebanon is in violation of a UN resolution..while totally ignoring the fact that Isreal is in viloation of almost 60 un resolutions...

as i said..it is a question of the framing of the question..as to what the answers might be..but more importantly ..who the framers of the questions are!!

fly

[Balbus]

8. Of course - As long as they don't use rockets,

bombs, shells, guns, tanks, airplanes, boats, submarines, grenades, knives, arrows, or pointed sticks. They may throw rocks as long as the rocks are smooth and can fit easily into the palm of your average Israeli child's hand. In fact it would be best if the children threw the rocks instead of the adults. Don't want anyone to get hurt too badly. It's only their measly existence they're fighting for - don't want anyone to lose an eye.

[Little Star]

9. They have just as much right as

the US whom also claim self defense from those terrorists who want to kill americans. "sigh"

That dog don't hunt in this aggression against Lebanon.

[Lars39]

10. I've been trying to think of why this phrase bothers me,

and I've finally figured out why. The definition of defend is being changed.
Defend, to me, means to stay put and fend off attacks.
It doesn't mean clearing out everything miles over the border and creating a buffer zone.
That is going on the offensive.

[Mrspeeker]

16. it bothers me too

Because its the common misconception that defense is what everyone needs to secure there country, when really its offense.

Building a wall would be a act of defense!
Building Bombs, or missiles and launching them across a border is not defense but rather offense.

even more simply,
A shield would be for defense, you could hide behind it and not get hurt and its purpose is not to inflict damage on someone else but simply to shield you from incoming attacks.

A sword how ever is for offense even when used in defense because its very purpose is to stab not shield.

The defend phrase is bothering and has been bothering me for years!

[AliceWonderland]

11. All peoples must be able to defend themselves against aggression.

That's a given.

Using that argument is a strawman, intended to give a spurious connection between "all peoples must be able to defend themselves against aggression" and "therefore Israel is justified in its actions and if you disagree, you are denying that all people must be able to defend themselves against aggression."

I'm starting to see these spurious "arguments" increasingly challenged.

A similar tactic: if you don't think Israel's actions are justified, then you don't accept Israel's right to exist. This one is also unbelievable -- I've actually seen several posts on this forum stating something like, "I agree with Israel's right to exist but these actions have gone too far." This is not about questioning Israel's right to exist, and one can have legitimate objections based on humanitarian law without questioning anyone's "right to exist."

These problems can't be solved with this kind of rhetoric.

[Lilith Velkor]

15. Like constantly accusing all males of being sexist

That crap did the feminist movement a fat lot of good, didn't it?

[Mrspeeker]

12. It goes both ways!

If Israel has the right to defend it self in the way it has chosen to, by bombing kids and so on, then Lebanon has that same right!

There are huge holes in this way of thinking which is stemming from the current BUSH administrations philosophy of preemptive strikes, and the war on terror.

We as a common people that share this planet should be working for peace and there will be no peace if there is Defense or offense for that matter.

So many different ways of thinking and different cultures have divided us, and a big part of that is Governments and the way they operate. With so many Governments sending mixed messages to its people, mainly influenced by huge corporations which only actually care about there own bottom lines, We continue to divide and fight. This all leads back to Government itself, for Governments don't act for the people they act for themselves and claim its for the people. They act for big business and control. One very great way of maintaining control is to create a enemy of the government, even though the enemy itself is the government. By dividing up the planet and sectioning it off with land ownership and border lines we in essence have created a society in which the strong shall survive and even on the world level we can see this happening.

What is the solution? well obviously we can't continue to divide up pieces of a planet and claim sides. At the sametime we must have common laws or we will have anarchy. Common laws should be followed by every country. This means if we pass a clean air act, then every country has to follow it. Which would actually put the corporation back in check, they would no longer be able to jump to another side and do there business there because it was cost effective and legal for them to do so.

Ever country should join together and drop and destroyed every weapon and bomb on this planet, instead our governments use them as leverage in some crazy game!

We as a common people of the same world need to change our ways and ways of thinking.

Killing is wrong in defense or offense!


People should be asking what does my government really do for me?

[MemphisTiger]

13. Define defend

if defending itself involves bombing of civilians than no. If it involves bombing military areas that have attacked them, then yes. They don't need to go on the offensive.

[endarkenment]

14. Certainly not by committing war crimes.

Your question is, to say the least, loaded.

[Renew Deal]

17. No it's not.

It's a simple yes or now question. Do they have a right to defend themselves or not? What's ridiculous is more people believe Hezbollah has a right to defend themselves thant Israel.

[endarkenment]

21. It is not a simple yes or no question.

If I say no, meaning not the way they have gone about whatever it is they think they are doing in Lebanon, then I have tacitly denied Israel any right to self defense.

If I say yes, meaning that in general all people and all nations have a right to self defense, then I have tacitly agreed to whatever it is Israel thinks they are doing in Lebanon, under the theory that this is somehow self defense.

Your question is loaded.

[warrens]

18. Like we have a right to defend ourselves by destroying Iraq, I guess

What a dumb question.

[RSMS9999]

wow

not one mention at all of the fact that 100s of rockets are flying directed SOLELY at Isreali civilans everyday. I guess it is an inconvinient fact when arguing against a country trying to destroy the threats that plague her civilians.

[endarkenment]

23. 100s of rockets a day? Not really.

And if they are directed SOLELY at civilians they are doing a piss poor job of hitting their targets. Israel, on the other hand, with the latest in high tech precision weaponry and surveillance systems is killing about 90% civilians. Hmmmm...

[RSMS9999]

19. wow

not one mention at all of the fact that 100s of rockets are flying directed SOLELY at Isreali civilans everyday. I guess it is an inconvinient fact when arguing against a country trying to destroy the threats that plague her civilians.

[bigmonkey]

20. Sure it does.

But the government of Israel doesn't get carte blanche to define any and all actions as self-defense. That's what the real argument is: what is legitimate self-defense? Does collective punishment count as self-defense? Does seizure of territory count as self-defense? Use of banned, inhuman weapons? Torture?

To break the cycle of violence, self-restraint is incumbent on the stronger in the conflict.

[Bretttido]

22. Enough of these flamebait polls already n/t