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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:28 AM
Original message
Can a Conservative Christian be a good American???
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 09:33 AM by ck4829
Can a devout Conservative Christian be an American patriot and a loyal citizen? Consider this:

Theologically, no. Because his allegiance is to white, blonde haired, blue eyed Jesus.

Scripturally, no. Because his allegiance is to the three of the Ten Commandments that he can remember.

Geographically, no. Because his allegiance is to the place where they plan to get raptured to.

Socially, no. Because his allegiance to white Jesus forbids him to make friends with Americans such as Gays and Muslims.

Politically, no. Because he must submit to Pat Robertson, who calls for the 'godly' fumigation of Non-Conservative Christians.

Domestically, no, because he is instructed to turn women into 2nd class citizens (along with every other non-white person).

Religiously, no. Because no other religion is accepted by his god except Conservative Christianity.

Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is not based on Biblical principles.

Philosophically, no, because the 'christian' Right does not allow freedom of religion and expression.

Democracy and the 'christian' Right cannot co-exist.

Therefore after much study and Deliberation ....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS in this country. They obviously cannot be both good Conservative Christians and good Americans. Call it what you wish ...it's still the truth. If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country.

In light of this is it possible to have a democracy in the US? The war is bigger than we know.
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HornBuckler Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. just to sum up
Beware all fundamentalists.

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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. With some historically accurate references - this could have legs.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. No
but he believes he is.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. Religion is a reaction to fear
Good Americans don't allow their fear to overwhelm their (not-so)common sense.

Republicans think America is too weak to defeat terrorists without resorting to terrorism and giving up freedoms.


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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think your definition of Cons. Christian is different from mine
Perhaps you mean fundamentalists? And even then, I know many of those who do not think Jesus was white, don't believe in the rapture, do not submit to Pat Robertson. You are stereotyping that whole group, which will just polarize us even more. Better to find what we have in common and unite against Bushco. Bush is *not* a conservative Christian and the sooner *they* see this, the better. They think he's on their side, but he really isn't.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. The problem is with "conservative" and "christian."
The terms are incompatible. Those who refer to themselves as such are neither.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. as far as i am concerned...
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 09:52 AM by flyarm
not anymore!

they have the blood and wars dripping form their ever crevace ..if they supported this cabal in our white house..

the truth was always there..

anyone who was a good American looked for the truth..it was not difficult to find...we all found the truth..

so if someone is such a good christian , and a good american..they ( in my opinion) had the obligation to seek the truth..and many, what is it now 28% still do not want the truth..and when little lord pissy pants is lying to their faces ..and it is obvious in everyway..they still fawn all over the murderer..

i feel they are accomplices of the murder of approx 250,000 iraqi's
and 2,500+ american soldiers
and maiming approx 75,000 american soldiers..

and now the children of lebanon!

and they don't give one rats ass about the lies or murder..

as long as they think they are paying less taxes ( and yes, " think " they are paying less taxes)


and as long as they "think" little lord pissy pants is going to save fetuses..in their behalf.

but living breathing children..they fucking do not give a damn about! especially little brown children!

oh and co-mingling church with state..as they want and cheer on..is the most unamerican thing anyone could wish for..

after all ..it is clear by our founding fathers that that is unacceptable..but do the conservative rethugs give a rats ass about the constitution..fuck no!

good americans you ask???

they have no idea what the constitution says, let alone follow its laws!

good americans do not follow like sheeple..they question and they hold the feet of our leaders to the fire each and everyday..

because ...

our constitution says.." WE THE PEOPLE

our constitution does not say.. we the president, we the religion, we the cabinet , we the congress

our constitution holds US responsible..TO MAKE SURE THE LAWS OF OUR LAND ARE UPHELD ..AND MOST OF ALL UPHELD ,BY THE VERY PEOPLE WHO ARE PUT IN PLACE TO REPRESENT US..

we are the employer...and if the so called represenatives do not do their job it is incombant of each American regardless of religion to hold them accountable..

as far as i am concerned..the so called Christian Americans have failed in their responsibility in every way..and i believe history will hold them accountable for all the bloodshed by their fucker in this white house!

in the meantime..they have blood dripping from every part of themselves!

and innocent lives have been snuffed off this earth for no damn reason..but their greed and ignorance!



i fucking despise those hypocritical bastards@

fly
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
8. What is it with this?
The RW loves to bash their definition of a bad American too. Are we all just statists that want conformity? I'm an atheist who has absolutely no love for the structure of organized religion, and know all about the Christian Reconstructionists, but goddamn. This "can so-and-so be a good, true American" stuff is just way too creepy. It's what the Christian Reconstructionists do.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thank you.
This divisive talk is bullshit.

For the first 30 years of my life, I was a conservative Christian. My entire family remains so.

Shit I hate this!
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
9. Can any fundementalist be a good citizen anywhere?
No.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. i'm christian -- and i agree -- no, they cannot.
more -- they are a cancer on the faith and the country.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. Hate is hate whether it be against Muslims or Christians
America is better than this garbage....
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BuhByeChimp Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. You must know different conservative christians
Than I do.

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. Fanatical 'Religious' devotion to
ANY 'ideal' is incompatible with 'good' citizenship, in any country- even America I believe.

Your comment "...perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS in this country..." is as inappropriate, and as bigoted as saying:
"don't trust those of the Jewish faith,"
"those who are African American,"
"anyone who is Gay,"
"anyone who has more money than you,"
"anyone who has less money than you,"
"anyone who speaks english with difficulty,"
"anyone who wears a head covering,"
"anyone who is.....___________"

I HATE it that I feel it necessary to be an 'apologist' for "Conservative Christians"- but for you to make the blanket bigoted statement that you have, and for me, not speak up for the individuals who are being maligned by your 'broad-brush' condemnation, and would be abandoning the essence of what I believe being a TRUE independent thinking, open minded, progressive, inclusive American citizen is all about.

If you have a 'beef' with an individual- Shout it out- but to condemn others due to your perceived group-prejudice- and not as human beings apart from any 'societal' label (even self-imposed) - or superficial measurement is just plain wrong-

I'm sorry- I DO hate the way bush uses 'religion' and 'buzz-words' in an attempt to sway, or lure people to his way of thinking, or to his agenda-

I also hate the way a 'book' be it the bible, the Koran, the Talmud, or the Tarot is often elevated to a'god-like' irrefutable 'authority' status- but how each one of us conducts ourselves individually, is what we should be 'measured by'- and 'judged on'- if you feel the need to 'judge' and qualify.


I despise bigotry in all its devious disguises, and all its 'noble' charades.

peace,
blu
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. This is Satire
Just a copy and paste of a letter that RW'ers like to send
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'm glad you qualified this- but I wish you'd
been a bit more obvious than you were, because it is really hard to figure out what is satire and what is serious these days- And I personally have become very poor at figuring out the difference-

Please forgive my nudge, but I have to ask, why would you imitate tactics that you don't like??? Maybe I'm just too weary to get the humor anymore- but I can't help but remember that addage "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"-

Thanks for clearing this up:P

blu
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meatloaf Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. Sorry but there's to much b.s. in this list.
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 11:03 AM by meatloaf
Theologically Jesus's physical description is irrelevant, I don't recall anyone's fatih being hinged on whether or not they accepted a particular physical interpretation of Jesus. Hell, one of the most popular arguments today is about what Jesus really did look like.

I'll give you the scriptural one on humor alone.

Geographically I'd have to argue against because like most people the average christian is just as concerned about making his current corner of the world comfy cozy while eyeing their perceived prize.

Socially I can challenge because there are a few Christians who actually recognize that intollerance is not a Christian virtue, even some conservative Christians.

Politically, I don't know about Pat Robertson, but forgoing personal responsiblity to be informed and voting the way the Pastor, Priest, Bishop, or Dali Lama tells you to is definitely a strike against.

Domestically, there is issue to be taken with gender assignments as described by the Bible, but what's attributed to Jesus and what's Old Testament? For a group that Calls themselves Christians, they sure like to ignore Christ's teachings and fall back on the Old Jewish fundamentals when it suits them. Nevermind that they'll still discriminate against the Jews, and ignore actual Jewish interpretation of the older writings.

Religiously, the real hummdinger here, is that once the conservative Christian finally eliminates all the competing relgions of Islam, Buddhism, etc, they'll have to get around to fighting the false christian religions like Mormonism, Lutheranism, Baptism, Southern-Baptism, etc... Being different is the crime, once they've eliminated the biggest differences they'll get around to offing each other for the smaller ones.

Intellectually, refusing democracy because it doesn't embrace their religion is just the tip of the iceberg for the the true fundie. They can't accept evolution, the true age of the earth, etc...

Philisophically, they can't pe philisophical, they don't have that much freedom of thought, everything's prescribed for them from the Bible.

That many religions, including most forms of Christianity require conversion or elimination of those not of the parent religion, anyone who takes their religon too seriously scares the hell out of me, conservative or liberal.

P.S. I know this is intended as a sarcastic response to the Fundie-con lists that make the email-rounds, but I think it's all the more effective if it's tighter on the accuracy and makes it harder for them to challenge on the surface.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
18. Yes
Duh.
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idgiehkt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
19. the main reason, and I don't see it expressed exactly on the list
because any christian who follows the new testament is salivating for the rapture. That means that they long for the destruction of the earth, which includes the United States. They all want the rapture to happen in their lifetime, because that makes them special, part of the generation that 'will not pass away'.

So therefore, the interests of every bible believing christian run directly COUNTER to the interests of the United States. They don't want peace, they want war. They don't want stability, they want destruction. They don't want U.S. Citizens to be happy and safe and content, they want everyone they think is less than christian to be made miserable and repentant by God and then be cast into a firey hell for eternity. They are anti-patriotic by definition. Patriotism and Christianity are direct opposites. Any philosophy that has as it's end-game world war three and ultimate destruction of this planet can in no way be considered patriotic or nationalist or good in any way for America. I wish more secular people would wake up and see this.
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Ando 2 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
20. a quick view from across the lawn
Just wanted to briefly drop in and offer a little perspective from the other side of the fence. I am a lurker around here every once in a while and this was good enough for me to drop in and post a response that I hope is educational. I'll respect the site however and not hang around too long. I consider myself to be a fairly moderate, slightly right-of-center conservative Catholic. I had originally been a Republican, but I have recently registered as an independent. I would like to offer a respone to the OP:

Can a devout Conservative Christian be an American patriot and a loyal citizen? Consider this:
Theologically, no. Because his allegiance is to white, blonde haired, blue eyed Jesus.


It is correct that my allegiance is to Christ and his church, but I make no claims as to his skin, hair, or eye color. Considering his background I would assume olive skin, dark hair, and dark eyes. But that would only be conjecture, really. The good part of my allegiance is that it allows me to really be an American patriot. I don't see America as a nation that can do no wrong. Every time I hear Hannity say that this is the greatest nation God gave to man I cringe. I live in America, therefore I want to make it the best that it can be. My allegiance to Christ and his Church frees me to see America as a human institution, one that can be improved and one that can fail without hard work and dedication.

Scripturally, no. Because his allegiance is to the three of the Ten Commandments that he can remember.

That's a good little stinger. That someone can claim a Christian heritage and not know the 10 Commandments does not help me win arguments...at all. But I would assume that there are plenty of people, religious or otherwise, who have at best an incomplete understanding of the content of what they claim as truth. For me, scripture is only one part of the deposit of faith. We (Catholics and Orthodox) also have the traditions of the Church and the writings of the Church Fathers to enrich our faith. Though many conservative Christians claim the doctrine of sola scriptura, they adhere to their modern authors and cult of personality preachers just as much as they do the Bible.

Geographically, no. Because his allegiance is to the place where they plan to get raptured to.

Many conservative Christians, including Catholics and Orthodox, do not believe in the Rapture or any end-times eschatology. The Apocalypse (or the Book of Revelation for protestants) was accepted into the Canon as a historical book, not a prophetic one. We can talk about that for ages, but suffice it to say that end-times eschatology is a cancer of American Christianity.

Socially, no. Because his allegiance to white Jesus forbids him to make friends with Americans such as Gays and Muslims.

My allegiance to (any skin color) Jesus actually compels me to be friendly toward anybody. Though I may have some conservative social beliefs, I have no desire to see a legislative response to any of them. Christianity has always been a little bit subversive, we change culture from the bottom up, not the top down. I am not selective with my friends, I try to welcome friendship with anybody.

Politically, no. Because he must submit to Pat Robertson, who calls for the 'godly' fumigation of Non-Conservative Christians.

Pat Robertson can bite me, now there in one person I might find it hard to be friendly with! :) Regarding politics however, I don't want to see America become the Church and I don't want to see the Church become America. While I would love to see every American in the Church, that is up to me to bring to fruition through my interaction with others, one at a time, not through "moral law". Moral laws do not make a moral culture, moral people make a moral culture.

Domestically, no, because he is instructed to turn women into 2nd class citizens (along with every other non-white person).

I don't view people as a "class" of citizens. People are just people.

Religiously, no. Because no other religion is accepted by his god except Conservative Christianity.

This is an interesting one. While I believe in the One True Church, I have no basis for handing down judgment on those outside of it. I try to bring people into the Church that I love when I can. Otherwise, I just pray.

Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is not based on Biblical principles.

I would say the Constitution has some basis in Biblical morality, though perhaps not explicitly so. I would rather argue that the Constitution is not incompatible with Biblical principles. Accepting one does not necessitate the rejection of the other.

Philosophically, no, because the 'christian' Right does not allow freedom of religion and expression.

It is important for me to clarify between a conservative Christian and the “Christian Right”. The former term fairly accurately describes me but the latter brings a whole host of GOP baggage along with it. As I said before, though I am fairly conservative on many issues, I do not advocate a legislative agenda forcing my morality on others. I choose to share my morality with others, one at a time, and let them decide for themselves. Most importantly, I just try to be nice and pleasant.

Democracy and the 'christian' Right cannot co-exist.

I would say this statement is true in the light of my last paragraph. The important message for me to relate however is: Democracy and conservative Christianity can certainly co-exist. We’re not all the enemy, please recognize that conservative Christians are not always members of the “Christian Right” and I’ll try my hardest to restore the good name and reputation of my faith and my Church. Thanks for listening and God bless you!
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
21. it is impossible for a fundy to be a good anything
they are mentally ill
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Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
22. Praise the Lord, K & Rec'ed
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. You are desribing FUNDAMENTALIST, not conservative christian.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. and all this time I thought I was being a good American, too.
Harumph. And all this time I thought I was being a good American, too.

Since you're now at war with me, can I have a few days to go to the Appalachians? I've always wanted to see them before I get shot by someone on a Holy Crusade as I hear they're really pretty in the summer.

Since you and your Righteous Wrath are now at war with me... well, it won't take long and I'll be back before you simmer down-- I promise...
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