How Legitimate is Hezbollah?

[bryant69]

On a scale of 1 to 5 - how legitimate is it? I mean on one end (5) you might have such organizations as the Red Cross or the World Health organization or Amnesty International - organizations which a very small amount of people might see as illegitimate.

On the other end (1) you might have such organizations as the Mafia or Drug Cartels or Al Qaeda - organizations that are defined by their illegitimacy, and organizations which the civilized world is trying to destroy, in so far as it is possible (obviously the question of appropriate methods doesn't enter into this discussion - one can believe that destroying Al Qaeda is a laudable goal without supporting the military adventures our nation has undertaken).

To sum up - legitimacy might be that mythical right to exist? The more legitimate an organization is, the more it has a right to exist; contrariwise, the less legitimate an organization is, the less it has a right to exist.

One other niggling point - I am assuming we are seeing Hezbollah as one organization, with different branches, not separate organizations. But I recognize that some of you might not see it that way.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[HornBuckler]

1. Just get on with it already

Maybe that sounds really f'd up and shallow - but let's get this whole human existence over with.

Edit : Maybe not shallow but really depressing - refreshing

[sabbat hunter]

2. hizbollah

is a terror organization. thus it is illegitimate


it is one organization with different branches, but one hand knows what the other is doing.

destroy hizblollah. that is the only solution.

[TAPat]

9. It was a terrorist organization -

emphasis on WAS. Hezbollah has been actively "legitimizing" itself by doing what I say the Democratic Party should do: spend it's $$$ supporting those in need of assistance/services in small, local venues. Seems to be working very well for them, as far as loyalty goes.

A question - were our own revolutionaries, especially the civil militia units, considered terrorists when they broke the warfare mold of the time and adopted unconventional tactics?
They too put down their weapons when the need for them had passed and focused on building a better system of government.

[KittyWampus]

34. Until Hezbollah disarms it has zero capacity to claim legitimacy

Example, Sein Finn

They want to sit at the table with the rest of the grown ups... they need to ACT like grown ups.

Of course at this point the Neo-Cons and far right Likud aren't exactly pinnacles of maturity either.

But at some point, Hezbollah could have boosted its prospects by making a show of disarming and garned much more sympathy in the western world.

[warrens]

37. Yes, our army was considered a pack of terrorists by the British

They complained loudly about the rabble who wouldn't fight fair in the tradition of the time. If we had lost the war, Washington and a lot of others would have hanged for "terrorism."

[KoKo]

48. Yep....it's all in the "eye of the beholder" who is legitimate and who

becomes legitimate after being considered illigitimate at one point or the other.

[T Town Jake]

67. Yeah, George Washington deliberately used civilians as human shields...

...while fighting them there Redcoats... :eyes:

You literally couldn't make some of these ridiculous anti-Israel posts up.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization and their leader is PSYCHOTIC.

Nasrallah purveys his message via Hezbollah’s own television network, Al-Manar, a primary engine of incitement to violence against Jews, Israelis and Americans. Al Manar’s stated mission is to "wage psychological warfare against the Zionist enemy." This is often done by glorifying attacks, particularly suicide missions against Israel. Last year, Nasrallah appeared on Al-Manar encouraging "martyrdom" among children, saying:

How can death become joyous? How can death become happiness? When Al-Hussein asked his nephew Al-Qassem, when he had not yet reached puberty: "How do you like the taste of death, son?" He answered that it was sweeter than honey. How can the foul taste of death become sweeter than honey? Only through conviction, ideology, and faith, through belief, and devotion.

We do not want to...leave our homeland to Israel... Therefore, we are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV , Feb. 18-19, 2005)

In May, Nasrallah appeared on Al-Manar TV to explain that "our nation's willingness to sacrifice their blood, souls, children, fathers, and families" is an advantage over the Jews "who guard their lives." (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV on May 23, 2006.)


Hezbollah terrorist attacks.


Abu Nidal Organization (ANO) and Hezbollah attacked Religious Figures/Institutions target (Mar. 29, 1989, Belgium)

Action Directe and Hezbollah attacked Business target (Apr. 13, 1985, France)

Committee of Solidarity with Arab and Middle East Political Prisoners (CSPPA) and Hezbollah attacked Transportation target (Mar. 18, 1986, France)

Hamas and Hezbollah attacked Military target (Mar. 21, 1991, Israel)

Hezbollah and Islamic Movement for Change attacked Military target (June 25, 1996, Saudi Arabia)

Hezbollah and Islamic Salvation Front attacked Airports & Airlines target (Aug. 26, 1992, Algeria)

Hezbollah and Khaibar Brigades attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 22, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah and Lebanese National Resistance Front attacked Military target (Mar. 10, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Airports & Airlines target (Dec. 25, 1986, Iraq)

Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Diplomatic target (Apr. 18, 1983, Lebanon)

Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Diplomatic target (Jan. 5, 1989, Thailand)

Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Military target (Apr. 12, 1985, Spain)

Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Other target (Feb. 6, 1984, France)

Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Tourists target (Feb. 4, 1990, Egypt)

Hezbollah and al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (GAI) attacked Government target (June 26, 1995, Ethiopia)

Hezbollah and al-Qaeda attacked Military target (Nov. 13, 1995, Saudi Arabia)

Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (Apr. 5, 1988, Thailand)

Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (Aug. 28, 1985, Turkey)

Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (Dec. 12, 1983, Kuwait)

Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (Dec. 4, 1984, Iran)



Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (July 22, 1985, Denmark)

Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (July 22, 1985, Denmark)

Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (July 24, 1987, Congo, Republic of the)

Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (June 7, 1985, Greece)

Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (Sept. 19, 1989, Chad)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Aug. 1, 1987, Tunisia)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Aug. 1, 1987, Tunisia)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Aug. 1, 1987, Tunisia)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Aug. 1, 1987, Tunisia)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Feb. 8, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Jan. 17, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Jan. 20, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (June 6, 1995, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Mar. 29, 1985, France)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (May 29, 1986, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Nov. 17, 1993, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Nov. 28, 1995, Turkey)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Sept. 12, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Sept. 7, 1987, France)

Hezbollah attacked Business target (Sept. 9, 1987, France)




Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Aug. 24, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Aug. 7, 1991, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Dec. 12, 1983, Kuwait)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Dec. 12, 1983, Kuwait)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Dec. 27, 1988, Pakistan)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Feb. 20, 1991, Iran)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Feb. 20, 1991, Iran)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Feb. 20, 1991, Iran)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Jan. 17, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Jan. 8, 1987, Cyprus)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (July 13, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (July 26, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (June 6, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 16, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 17, 1992, Argentina)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 22, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 22, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 25, 1991, Turkey)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 27, 1984, Iraq)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 7, 1992, Turkey)




Hezbollah attacked Military target (Jan. 14, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Jan. 29, 1997, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Jan. 8, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Jan. 8, 1998, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (June 1, 1989, Cote d'Ivoire)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (June 10, 1996, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (June 29, 1993, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Mar. 16, 1983, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Mar. 7, 1994, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Mar. 9, 1989, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 15, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 5, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (July 28, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (July 28, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (July 28, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (July 9, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (July 9, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (July 9, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (Feb. 10, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (Jan. 13, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (July 3, 1991, Italy)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (June 17, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (June 27, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (Mar. 16, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (Mar. 7, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (Mar. 7, 1990, Turkey)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (Mar. 8, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (May 26, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (May 20, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (May 5, 1990, Jordan)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Nov. 1, 1989, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Nov. 1, 1989, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Nov. 27, 1984, Italy)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Oct. 10, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Oct. 16, 1989, Turkey)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Oct. 25, 1988, Turkey)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Sept. 20, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Diplomatic target (Sept. 4, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (Apr. 3, 1987, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (Feb. 10, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (Jan. 18, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (Jan. 24, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (Mar. 3, 2004, Yemen)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (May 27, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (May 28, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (Sept. 26, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Educational Institutions target (Sept. 9, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Government target (May 25, 1985, Kuwait)





Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (Oct. 24, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Journalists & Media target (Sept. 28, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Aug. 1, 1984, Egypt)




Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Sept. 20, 1984, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Maritime target (Sept. 27, 1985, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Apr. 13, 1993, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Apr. 18, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Aug. 10, 1996, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Aug. 19, 1993, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Aug. 9, 1989, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Dec. 16, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Feb. 17, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Feb. 18, 1987, Lebanon)



Hezbollah attacked Military target (May 1, 1993, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (May 19, 1985, Saudi Arabia)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (May 26, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (May 30, 1996, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Nov. 9, 1989, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Oct. 19, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Oct. 23, 1983, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Military target (Oct. 23, 1983, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked NGO target (Aug. 7, 1991, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked NGO target (May 16, 1989, Lebanon)



Hezbollah attacked NGO target (May 25, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked NGO target (May 4, 1989, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Aug. 28, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Aug. 7, 2001, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Aug. 8, 1991, France)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Feb. 15, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Jan. 10, 1987, Cyprus)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Jan. 23, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Jan. 27, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (July 18, 1987, United Kingdom)



Hezbollah attacked Other target (June 11, 1994, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (May 26, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (May 7, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Oct. 1, 1987, United Kingdom)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Oct. 21, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Sept. 14, 1984, Spain)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Apr. 7, 2005, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Apr. 9, 1996, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Aug. 10, 2003, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Dec. 23, 1998, Israel)






Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (July 7, 2003, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Mar. 1, 1993, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Mar. 30, 1996, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Mar. 31, 1995, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Mar. 31, 1998, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (May 19, 1985, Saudi Arabia)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (May 5, 1995, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Nov. 27, 1995, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Oct. 11, 1998, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Religious Figures/Institutions target (Jan. 30, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked NGO target (May 25, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked NGO target (May 4, 1989, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Aug. 28, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Aug. 7, 2001, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Aug. 8, 1991, France)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Feb. 15, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Jan. 10, 1987, Cyprus)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Jan. 23, 1987, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Jan. 27, 1988, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (July 18, 1987, United Kingdom)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (June 11, 1994, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (May 26, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (May 7, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Oct. 1, 1987, United Kingdom)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Oct. 21, 1986, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Other target (Sept. 14, 1984, Spain)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Apr. 7, 2005, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Apr. 9, 1996, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Aug. 10, 2003, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Private Citizens & Property target (Dec. 23, 1998, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Religious Figures/Institutions target (Jan. 8, 1985, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Religious Figures/Institutions target (July 22, 1985, Denmark)

Hezbollah attacked Religious Figures/Institutions target (July 22, 1985, Denmark)

Hezbollah attacked Religious Figures/Institutions target (May 10, 1984, Lebanon)

Hezbollah attacked Tourists target (June 23, 1995, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Unknown target (Jan. 6, 2003, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Unknown target (June 23, 1986, Egypt)

Hezbollah attacked Unknown target (May 25, 1998, Israel)

Hezbollah attacked Utilities target (Aug. 15, 1987, Saudi Arabia)

Hezbollah attacked Utilities target (Dec. 12, 1983, Kuwait)

http://www.tkb.org/MoreGroupIncidents.jsp?groupID=3101&sortBy=0&sortOrder=0&pageIndex=0


If you wish to read about any of these attacks, go to the link above.

[TAPat]

50. Wow - thanks... nt

[Finder]

56. If you click the links they do not name Hez...wtf? Hez is Shia not Sunni.

and several of the attacks did not involve Hez..

Honest, check it out.

[Peace Patriot]

64. That doesn't surprise me. I no more expect the truth from supporters

of Israeli aggression than I expect it from mullahs instructing Allah's army. The first victim of war is the truth.

They are in a war. A war is based on THE LIE that killing will make you safe. It's old men manipulating young men. It's men of all kinds who justify slaughtering children and other innocents in the name of _____________ (choose your poisonous Father God).

We may have more cultural understanding with, and kinship with, Israel, but war is all the same. And war is not the answer. Never was. Never will be.

WW II didn't need to happen. If the greedy super-rich had not devastated Germany, and had not precipitated the Great Depression, Hitler would have had no fallow ground on which to sow hatred, which he was able to institutionalize by rebuilding Germany's industrial base.

That's the only war I know of that even comes close to being justified. And its leadup--and its aftermath--only confirm that war is for war profiteers. They foment it. And then they keep on profiting from it afterward. The failure of the US to demobilize after WW II--on the phony grounds of capitalism vs communism--has led to our plight in the US today, totally in the clutches of the war industry, which has sucked on our teat all these years, and has now killed our democracy (as Dwight Eisenhower warned that it would). Communism was ALWAYS an issue of equity. People who were treated fairly did not choose communism. It was an reaction to EXTREME unfairness. If we had addressed the unfairness--as we could have--we would have had no enemies anywhere in the world. Instead, we let US-based capitalists and warmongers run rampant.

And we have done the same thing now--to Middle Eastern peoples and others. We are lucky that the Latin Americans have chosen a PEACEFUL, leftist, democratic method of putting things right. Our corporations and our secret government have brutally oppressed them. The Middle Easterners--under the evil thumbs of US-imposed dictators, the filthy rich Saudi sultans et al--are not so peaceful. And they have GOOD REASON to be angry and hateful. I don't sympathize with their culture, or condone their tactics, but I can understand it. They are similar to a lot of rebellions by oppressed people, recently and historically. People don't listen to silky invitations to death without REASON.

And when the young are pulled into it, is it any different what the old men in Araby say to them, than what is said to our young people to get them to kill and die for their elders' ambitions? The "other" people are evil. The "other" people are doing all the bad things. The "other" people are using children as shields. (And the oil corporations, Bushites and Saudi princes are not so using the children of Israel???) The "other" people are pulling babies from incubators (bald-faced lies about Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait. It used to spearing babies with their swords--a thousand years ago.) The "other" people are inferior, are subhuman, all they want is to kill, they are all madmen.

We pump ours up with pride and patriotism, and rough treatment--and, lately, the need for jobs and education. The Israelis pump them up with Israel's vulnerability, the history of oppression of the Jews, and the bottomless hostility around them. The Arabs use religion and honor, and their poverty and oppression (flipside of honor). What's the difference? The young thus become the tools of endless war. And the only real difference is a difference of scale in their power. Young Americans and Israelis can bomb from the air with impunity--nothing but a video game. And on the ground they have far superior equipment, surveillance and logistics. These often don't work against indigenous guerrilla movements. But they cost a lot. The real beneficiaries of war--the war profiteers--are sucking the U.S. dry and laughing all the way to the bank.

And the sane people in all these societies have been neutralized.

So, supporters of Israeli aggression can go stuff their propaganda. I wouldn't believe ANYTHING they said, at this point. I'm an American who wants Israel to survive--and prosper in a transformed Middle East, where all the filthy rich Sultans and all the power-mad, greedy Bushites are gone! And Israel's current path--allied with the most despised fascists in history, outside of the Nazis themselves (and who in fact helped fund the Nazis)--is not going to get her there.

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. They ALL say they're Hezbollah. Here's just 3 random links.

Incident Date: Apr. 5, 1988

Terrorist Organization(s): Hezbollah

City: Bangkok

Country/Area: Thailand

Region: South Asia

Target: Airports & Airlines

Tactic: Hijacking

Suicide: No

Weapon: Unknown

Fatalities: 2

Injuries: 0

US Attack: No

US Fatalities: 0

US Injuries: 0

Attack Claimed: Yes

Coordinated: No

Description: THAILAND. A Kuwaiti Airlines flight en route from Bangkok to Kuwait was hijacked by members of Hezbollah who demanded the release of 17 pro-Iranian extremists being held in Kuwaiti jails. Three members of the Kuwaiti royal family were on board the flight, which turned into a sixteen-day ordeal resulting in the murder of two passengers. At one point the plane was diverted to Iran where it is reported that the hijackers received assistance. The hijacking ended in Algeria where the Algerian government negotiated with the terrorists and facilitated their safe passage out of the country. There are reports that the original plan of the hijackers was to stage a double hijacking in Bangkok, but a second team of hijackers was taken into custody by Thai authorities just before they boarded the targeted jet. It is believed that the release of this team was part of the deal negotiated by terrorists before the settlement of the other hijacking.

Information Source: Chronology Data 1968-1997

Publication Date: 04/03/2001

Incident-data Provider: RAND Corporation



Hezbollah attacked Airports & Airlines target (Aug. 28, 1985, Turkey)

Incident Date: Aug. 28, 1985

Terrorist Organization(s): Hezbollah

City: Istanbul

Country/Area: Turkey

Region: Middle East / Persian Gulf

Target: Airports & Airlines

Tactic: Bombing

Suicide: No

Weapon: Explosives

Fatalities: 0

Injuries: 0

US Attack: No

US Fatalities: 0

US Injuries: 0

Attack Claimed: Yes

Coordinated: No

Description: TURKEY. A bomb exploded near an office of the Israeli airline El Al in Istanbul, shattering its front window but causing no injuries or other damage.


Incident Date: June 7, 1985

Terrorist Organization(s): Hezbollah

City: Athens

Country/Area: Greece

Region: Western Europe

Target: Airports & Airlines

Tactic: Hijacking

Suicide: No

Weapon: Firearms

Fatalities: 1

Injuries: 0

US Attack: Yes

US Fatalities: 1

US Injuries: 0

Attack Claimed: Yes

Coordinated: No

Description: GREECE. Two Shi'ite gunmen hijacked a TWA Boeing 727 en route from Athens to Rome with over 100 Americans on board. The plane was forced to make several stops before finally landing in Beirut where U.S. navy diver Robert Stetham was killed. All but 41 of the hostages were released. The rest of the hostages were taken to undisclosed locations in Beirut. The hostages were released June 30 after mediation of Shi'ite Amal leader Nabih Berri and the Syrian government. The hijackers included in their demands the release of the terrorists being held in Kuwait in connection with the December 1983 bombings there of the U.S. and French Embassies, and two Lebanese terrorists held by Spain for the murder of a Libyan diplomat in Madrid last September. The major demand was for the release of 766 Shi'ites being held in Israel. The radical Hezbollah (Party of God) group claimed responsibility. On October 17, 1985, the U.S. Department of Justice offered $250,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the three men believed responsible for the hijacking and murder. On September 13 1987, Fawaz Younis, believed to have been the leader of the terrorist cell involved in the hijacking of a Jordanian airliner in Beirut (see incident 4215) and also thought to have been involved in the TWA hijacking, was lured onto a yacht by the FBI. Younis was later convicted of air piracy and the seizure of hostages for his role in the Beirut hijacking and received a thirty year prison sentence. In May, 1989, pro-Iranian militant Mohammed Ali Hammadi was sentenced to life imprisonment in Frankfurt on charges stemming from this incident. Both Mohammed Hammadi and his brother, Abbas, are imprisoned in Germany.

Information Source: Chronology Data 1968-1997

Publication Date: 04/03/2001

Incident-data Provider: RAND Corporation

[mmonk]

3. Hezbollah is a symptom

that won't go away without some leadership coming from somewhere in the world.

[htuttle]

4. How legitimate was Irgun or the Stern Gang?

Legally, none of them were or are legitimate, insofar as they engage in violence to acheive their goals.

Ethically legitimate? That decision is left as an exercise for the reader....

[bowens43]

5. As legitimate as Israel.....

[bryant69]

7. Please clarify.

[SPKrazy]

71. So Israel Isn't Legitimate?

Or Israel is legitimate?

don't know your feelings on the legitimacy of Israel to guide us to your views on the legitamcy of Hizbollah

Israel is a nation state

Hizbollah is a terrorist organization

how does one even compare the two?

It's like comparing al Queda to any country

is al Queda legit too?

[Finder]

6. As legitimate as the IRA/Sein Finn was/is...n/t

[dipsydoodle]

16. Excellent analogy

It was interesting that the IRA was not actually classified as a terrorist organisation until 9/11. It's also interesting to note that the IRA had no uniforms.

[malaise]

26. The majority of the EU

recognize them as a legitimate organization.

[KittyWampus]

36. Sein Finn disarmed. And a good lot of the people they lived among

disagreed with their violence and the results of their violence.

[htuttle]

39. Sinn Fein was technically never armed -- it was the IRA that was armed

From it's inception, Sinn Fein was a political party. It was affiliated with the IRA, but technically not the same group.

And to this day, there are still Provo factions that remain armed and militant (ie., Real IRA, et al).

[SPKrazy]

72. Oh Come On

Sinn Fein was the political arm of the IRA

anyone that says differently is blowing smoke

[Peace Patriot]

47. That was my thought exactly--as legitimate as the IRA, which was--at

least at the beginning--an expression of the Irish rebellion against 400 years of English imperialism and attendant horrors. Hezbollah is the expression of a rebellion, which has taken violent form. It IS representative of a people. It is NOT some secret, tiny, terrorist cabal. And if you grant its connection to Hamas, and to Islamic sympathizers in other places (pretty obvious), it is rather a large rebellion, and with some similarity to the connections between the IRA (and what it was expressing) and Irish sympathizers in the U.S. (who helped fund the IRA).

I completely disagree with the poster upthread that you solve the problem of Hezbollah by destroying Hezbollah ("that is the solution"). Should England have bombed Ireland to destroy the IRA? It would have been a "solution," all right. And what of the JUST part of the IRA's cause? The 400 years of brutal oppression? And what of those (most people) who did NOT commit violence--a mixed bag of people, most of them completely innocent, others collusive with the IRA but not directly guilty of violence, and all very unhappy about oppressive policy and its purpose--the impoverishment of the Irish people?

In both cases, you have extremely disempowered and discontent men becoming caught up in a cycle of violent retribution. And those who oppose them--England, Israel, the US--ALSO getting caught up in violent repression--at which point WAR PROFITEERS gain the upper hand on all sides.

Another similarity between the IRA and Hezbollah is the disproportion in power of the two sides. I was thinking about the Israeli air bombing of Beirut. Lethal aircraft of the highest sophistication and murderous power used against a people with no air force.* With the IRA, it was English police and military power, and that of intel agencies--of boots on the ground--that was disproportionate--although nothing like the US/Israeli slaughter power was ever used.

Which brings me to the differences between the IRA and Hezbollah. First, the cultural difference between the English and Irish was not as great (as that between Hezbollah and the west/Israel). The Irish had been integrating into English society for a long time. Intermarriage was frequent. Indeed, the Keltic culture was the older of the cultures; it is an intimate part of the foundation of English culture (for instance, the Arthurian legends), and of English racial characteristics. The two are one, in many ways. There are no great cultural barriers--such as the suppression and veiling of women. Their religions have a common foundation (including Druidic/Pagan/Keltic strains--but mostly the Bible). The religion of the English upper class is a hairsbreadth away from Roman Catholicism, separated only by a legalism. The more or less peaceful relationship between the English upper and lower classes (master/servant) has never sat well with the Irish; they are more rebellious; but it nevertheless left room for some accommodation and understanding, which finally bore fruit in the English PULLING BACK from an "ultimate solution," and bending even so far as to permit the IRA entry into the political sphere as a legitimate party.

Think of a 'New Alexandria' in which Hezbollah has seats in Parliament next to Israelis. Hard to think of, isn't it? But if something like that DOESN'T happen, then Israel can expect an endless war of attrition--of bombings of public places, of rockets over the border, and so on. Hezbollah is not a rogue bunch of murderous criminals. It is the expression of a people's discontent, exclusion and poverty. And it is not isolated. It is part of a larger discontent.

Another big difference is this Islamic jihad that Hezbollah is connected to. There is discontent--profound discontent--all over the Middle East. Israel (its creation 60 years ago, and continued existence) may be a particular inflammant to this discontent--and a focus of it--but it is not the cause, in my opinion, except in so far as Israel has colluded with the US in destroying Middle Eastern democracy. (A prime example is Iran--the US/Israel destroyed Iran's democracy in 1954, and installed the horrible Shah, who inflicted 25 years of torture and oppression on the Iranian people! WE drove the Iranians into the arms of the mullahs! The reason was WESTERN greed for oil. No wonder the Iranians hate Israel!).

The causes are poverty and lack of democracy. Middle eastern people are the prey of filthy rich sheiks and oil predators--abetted by western entities like the Bush Cartel. They are NOT benefiting from their oil. The only ones who are are the Iranians--who have a more moderate, and more truly Islamic government than the others--BECAUSE THEY INSTALLED IT THEMSELVES. Saddam Hussein was a US creation--mainly to insure oil trading in dollars, and also an outlet for our most horrible weapons (to be used against Iran!). It was a secular model, but with a dictator on top of it. The Saudi princes are also our doing--in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar and UAE. The rich have impoverished and suppressed the poor. Iran is the only place this hasn't happened (maybe partly because they are Persians, not Arabs.) There are no filthy rich sultans in Iran!

And who is the Bush Cartel buddies with? The filthy rich Sultans of Saudi Arabia! If I read Osama bin Laden's statements and background correctly, THIS is his biggest beef with the west. WE have helped destroy the self-determination, and the legitimate aspirations toward self-government and EQUITY, of the Middle Eastern peoples. THIS is WHY he is hero in the Middle East--and it is exactly the same reason that the IRA were heroes in Ireland. They expressed REAL and widespread discontent. Most people don't agree with bombings and killing innocents. But in these oppressive situations, they DO agree with WHY the violent are moved to do what they do. And ISLAMIC discontent is MUCH bigger than Irish discontent--it covers whole regions and parts of continents. "Anonymous" did a whole book about this after 9/11. Although he accepts that it was Al Qaeda (and not, as some of us believe, Al Qaeda/Bush Cartel), his point is the blithering idiocy of ignoring WHY it happened--the legitimate grievances of people who are very like the supporters of the IRA. Their voices have been silenced. Their democracies have been destroyed (or prevented). Their resources have been stolen. They have been impoverished amidst the oil riches of the Middle East.

This is what Hezbollah is connected to, and it is NOT going to go away. You kill Hezbollah fighters--and throw in dozens of dead children and women--and not 10 but 100 fighters will spring up in their stead.

The cultural difference is also a big obstacle to peace (much more serious than in Ireland). But hear this: WE may object to the veiling of women. That is NOT our business. Let those who don't like it immigrate to the west. And let Islamic society find its own equilibrium, in its own way. It is just an excuse anyway--used by propagandists for the oil and war profiteers. (And if Bush and his rightwing fanatics have their way, women will be "veiled" here as well!) The more democratic and prosperous Islamic society becomes, the LESS women are oppressed. The worst offenders are the rich oil sheiks! Iran's more egalitarian Islamicism is not nearly as bad (nor was Saddam's secular model). (The Taliban is a special case--a society blown apart by a U.S.-funded war against a communist government (probably the best Afghanistan has ever had)--the war for which the CIA created Al Qaeda.) (Note: The Afghanis are hardly women-veilers; many hated the Taliban's policies.)

I was listening to some BBC news about the Iranian nuke situation yesterday, and I was thinking this: Bush accuses them of being part of the "Axis of Evil." He groups them with Iraq (their arch enemy, Saddam!) and--????---North Korea???? Iran may have a few hotheads in their government, but it is NOT--I repeat, it is NOT--a dictatorship. Nor is it particularly "evil." You could make a much better case that the Bushite U.S. and rightwing-run Israel are "evil." The charge is LUDICROUS. So, WHAT are Iranians to think? We're gonna come and git 'em! Just like we did to the Iraqis. A hundred thousand slaughtered in the initial bombing alone. And what do they do in their defense? They go for nukes--because they are outgunned, out-moneyed and out-air forced--and, if there is a military Draft in the U.S.--outnumbered. Iran is the democracy that we destroyed!!!! It STILL HAS democratic aspirations, and a younger, more egalitarian society than much of the Middle East. And the Bushites--and now the Israelis--are pushing them as hard as they can AWAY from us--into paranoia.--after the great injury we did to them in 1954. What a crazy policy!

Where is WISDOM? How can peace and prosperity and fairness result from bombing children, and threatening peaceful people whom WE have repeatedly injured?

Those who say, "Exterminate Hezbollah," are sayinng "Exterminate children, and women, and the LEGITIMATE aspirations of Middle Eastern people." Substitute "IRA" for "Hezbollah," and you will see what it means.

That is not only wrong; it is stupid. Our governments--the U.S. and Israel--are being run by STUPID PEOPLE, who are being led around by the nose by oil and war profiteers. The Israelis have a little more excuse for having let this happen than we do. They have legitimate fears, and have been in a state of war for much long. It gets to you. You can't see out of it. And Americans haven't caught on to Diebold and ES&S yet (the election theft coup), and are utterly bewildered as to why EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT of us are opposed to any participation in a widened Mideast war, yet we are being led right into to it. (We are a "Gulf of Tonkin" away from WW III.)

I can't solve this problem in one post (--though I do try sometimes). All I know is this: Hezbollah sending rockets over Israel's border is as fair and just as the U.S. bombing of Baghdad. Violence is NEVER just. NEVER! And it always, always, always hurts the innocents more than anyone. And if you are talking about MAJOR POWER violence against indigenous rebellion, the "war crimes" will always be very lopsided, with the poor and the defenseless suffering the most. Israel may be vulnerable, but it is backed by a major power which is more than willing to jump in, is funding this aggression, and is very likely orchestrating it, with the long-planned purpose of widening the Mideast war for their own greedy ends.

If this policy is pursued of "exterminating Hezbollah," the result will be the end of Israel. And the Bush Cartel won't give a crap. In fact, once astride the Middle East, they would probably prefer it.

I think the solution lay in regionalism: A common front of Israel and its enemies against the Bush junta's invasion of the Middle East. I know this must sound crazy NOW. But the Bush junta is no "Roman Empire." Its support at home is extremely rickety (based on stolen elections), and they have pushed the American people into bankruptcy. They CANNOT protect Israel, and I don't think they want to. They don't care a whit about Israel. They are mere looters. They have no interest in government. They are completely lacking in the Roman skills of peaceful rule. And the U.S. military is at the point of revolt. (The Air Force DID revolt, apparently, on nuking Iran--but I mean more the stop-loss policy and the misuse of the military in Iraq. Why are they misusing the military in Iraq? Because they HAVE NO INTEREST in government and orderly civil rule.) "Roman Rule" (Big Brother "Prefects" protecting Israel from its neighbors) is not going to happen. The Bushites cannot rule the Middle East. They can only conquer it and OCCUPY it--a very different thing. And Israel could easily get squished or overrun in the violence and chaos that will result. And there won't be a tear in the Bush junta White House if that happens--or in the royal palaces in Saudi Arabia--once Israel's usefulness to them is at at end. A more treacherous ally than the Bush Cartel never existed.*

So, I am quite serious. Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas, and all the disaffected Middle Easterners against the Sultans and the Bushites. You want to gain a billion friends in the world overnight? Make THAT alliance!

--------------------------------------

*(Israel's bombing of Beirut is similar to Bush's bombing of Baghdad--all of a piece with the "Project for a New American Century"--pick off the weak countries first, the defenseless ones, and move on to the tougher nuts, such as Iran. It's a cowardly policy, suitable for the likes of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld--and unworthy of both Americans and Israelis, in so far as we are fair and just and courageous peoples, which I think we both are, on the whole. U.S. leaders stink to high heaven of cowardice. Israeli leaders are being led down the same path. I hope to God they--or the Israeli people--wake up to it, and realize that their survival and true prosperity lay in their identification with their Middle Eastern region, equity for all its people, and regional cooperation and strength. The west has long dominated, exploited and interfered in the Middle East. It's time to end it. Israel--as bridge between east and west--can do it. But they need a New Vision! Where are the visionaries?)

[Finder]

52. Good post but I doubt many have the attention span to read it. n/t

[RedEarth]

8. You might have an interest in this ..."What is Hizbullah? .... Juan Cole"

Monday, July 31, 2006

What is Hizbullah?

Western and Israeli pundits keep comparing Hizbullah to al-Qaeda. It is a huge conceptual error. There is a crucial difference between an international terrorist network like al-Qaeda, which can be disrupted by good old policing techniques (such as inserting an agent in the Western Union office in Karachi), and a sub-nationalist movement.

Al-Qaeda is some 5,000 multinational volunteers organized in tiny cells. Hizbullah is a mass expression of subnationalism that has the loyalty of some 1.3 million highly connected and politically mobilized peasants and slum dwellers. Over a relatively compact area.

........


The Shiites of southern Lebanon are compact enough to likewise offer a subnationalism. Note that this is a new phenomenon. The Shiite masses were not socially and politically mobilized until at least the 1970s, and probably it is more accurate to say the 1980s. ("Social mobilization" refers to literacy, access to media, urbanization, industrialization and so forth; isolated small villages have difficulty organizing big movements.)

The main factor in causing these peasant sharecroppers to become politically aware and mobilized was the Arab Israeli conflict. The Israelis stole some of their land in 1948 and expelled 100,000 Palestinians north into south Lebanon, where they competed for resources with local Lebanese Shiites. In the late 1960s and early 1970s the Palestinians became politically and militarily organized by the PLO. The Shiites' conflict with the PLO in the southern camps in the 1970s was probably a key beginning, but from 1982 it was primarily their conflict with the Israeli Occupation army that spurred them on.

......

What the Israelis set out to do, if they intended to "destroy" or even substantially attrite Hizbullah, was completely impractical. What they have done is to convince even Lebanese formerly on the fence about the issue that Hizbullah's leaders were correct in predicting that Lebanon would again be attacked in the most brutal and horrible way by the Israelis and that an even more powerful deterrent is needed. I.e more silkworms, not fewer. . The days when the Israelis could lord it over disconnected unmobilized Arab peasant villagers with their high tech army are coming to a close. The Arabs are still very weak, but are throwing up powerful asymmetrical challenges (e.g. party-militias with silkworm missiles!). Israeli alarm about the new connectedness of their foe explains the orgy of destruction aimed at bridges, roads, television and radio facilities and internet servers. But it is too late to disconnect the south Lebanese, who can easily and quickly rebuild all those connectors.

http://www.juancole.com/2006/07/what-is-hizbullah-western-and-israeli.html

[Fozzledick]

68. CIA created al-Qaeda, Iranian intellegence created Hizbullah

And Juan Cole seems to be becoming the Ann Coulter of Israel-haters, crossing the line from partisan fantatic to raving looney the way Ann did after 9/11.

[RethugAssKicker]

10. Legitimate

Hezbellah is a grass roots organization composed of Lebaneese.. This organization was created to counter Israel agression.

Over 80% of Lebaneese support Hezbollah.
Lebannon is Hezbellah. Hezbelloah is Lebanon.

[bryant69]

17. Isn't the implication of

"Lebannon is Hezbellah. Hezbelloah is Lebanon" that Israel is right to smash Lebanon if they want to eliminate Hezbollah, an organization that seems to want to eliminate Israel?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bryant69]

23. The IRA didn't say that they were in favor of eliminating England

Hezbollah has said, pretty regularly, that if they achieve their goals there will be no more Israel. Is that just posturing? Maybe.

However, I should note that I don't agree with your formulation on the interconnectedness of Hezbollah and Israel.

[dipsydoodle]

35. The IRA didn't need to say

they were in favour of eliminating England - it was solely that Northern Ireland and Eire become one again. So - treat Israel, in this respect, as though it were Northern Ireland.

[RethugAssKicker]

45. You mean the interconnectedness of Hezbellah and Lebanon..

Just watch democracynow.org

Thursday 7/27 show...


And well,, everyone has an opinion.

[KittyWampus]

38. I question the accuary of the statement 80% of Lebanese support

Hezbollah.

At least, up until the recent slaughter.

[RethugAssKicker]

46. www.democracynow.org ..... Thursday 7/27 show

ovr 80%... both Muslim AND Christian

[Taxloss]

11. As legitimate as any other paramilitary band of extremists

backed by fanatics, which gets its jollies from bombing Jewish community centres in neutral South American countries. It's a card-carrying member of that proud grouping.

So, yes, just like the Red Cross. :sarcasm:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. How legitimate is the ANC? The Sandanistas?

The ANC used "terror" tactics during the struggle against apartheid. As did the Sandanistas against Somoza.

To name just 2 "illegimtate" organizations.

[bryant69]

40. So you would argue that Hezbollah is legitimate?

Or is your point that questions of Legitimacy are a blind ally?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. "Legitimacy" is decided by the victors or the more powerful.

The Brits declared the our revolution "illigitmate". We, the victors, decided it was "legitimate" to throw off the British government, but "illigitimate" in the case of Daniel Shays and his followers to do the same with the U.S. Government.

It is illegal for you to travel to Cuba but it is legal for the United States to invade Grenada.

It is illegal for you to kill someone. It is legal for you to kill anyone if you don a uniform and are told to do so. It is also legal for the government to kill people.

The "legality" of Hezbullah is irrelevant.

I supported the ANC and Sandinistas (if not some of their violent tactics) whereas I don't support Hezbullah's aims or tactics. Nor do I support Israel's tactics or aims.

[bryant69]

51. So in practical sense

Hezbollah is illegitemate because it has been rejected by both the United States and the Europeon Union. You have no personal legitamacy to give, so don't see the question as meaningful.

Bryant
CHeck it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. As in most cases, my thoughts on "legitimacy" are irrelevant.

As are yours and the vast majority of peoples'. Unless you happen to find yourself in the ruling class.

The government of Germany has made the Nazi party "illegal". However, the United States regards it as "legal". Can, therefore, Germany invade the United States and bomb the places where Nazi's hang out?

[bryant69]

55. Well that's not a bad idea.

But probably have some negative reactions.

If the President Bush and his cronies wanted to declare war on the Red Cross (and given everything, I'm sure it's crossed their minds), could they convince the American people to go along with this plan? Maybe, but it'd be a harder sell than convincing us to go after, say, Al-Qaeda.

I guess underlining it all is how Democratic a society we are - how much does public opinion matter.

I will note that our politicians, on both sides of the fence, sure act like it matters.

Bryant

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Democracy? When did that happen?

Oligarchy:

1. Government by a few, especially by a small faction of persons or families.
2. Those making up such a government.

# A state governed by a few persons

Which is, of course, true of the governments of most countries.

Public opinion does matter. That's why the politicians spend millions buying it.

[bryant69]

58. Yes but in a true Oligarchy

The rest of us wouldn't matter in the slightest.

You should also note the differences between a republic and an oligarchy.

Bryant

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. I have noted the differences.

Between a "true" oligarchy and the one we now have.

Also, between a republic and an oligarchy.

That's why I'm an Anarchist.

[bryant69]

61. I am not an anarchist, as you probably would guess.

But going back - this is why our perception of legitimacy is different.

Bryant

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

63. No doubt.

[cali]

13. There goes the oft repeated

"No one on DU has expressed support for H'zbollah. At least 20 people do. If you think H'zbollah is as legitimate as the ICRC or AI, it can be safely assumed that you support H'zbollah.

Pretty funny.

[k_jerome]

14. more people lend some legitimacy than do not. nt.

[bryant69]

18. Well it is an interesting conundrum.

Because if and when I do a poll "Do You Support Hezbollah" it will get very few votes and more than a few angry denunciations. But of course I love angry denunciations.

[cali]

20. Yeah, I've gathered that , Bryant.

I actually get a kick out of the games you play. Sneaky little devil, aren't you?

[Finder]

31. I do not support Hez but I feel they are legitimate in the sense...

that they have shown the willingness to participate in a democratic way. Historically, most political parties have what may be called extreme beginnings.

Whether it be the american colonists, the stern gang, the mormons, violence/oppression had a part in the birth and evolution of the group.

[Renew Deal]

80. Now it's at least 60

:puke:

[The2ndWheel]

15. Who grants legitimacy?

Whoever wins. We'll see.

[aceman2373]

19. As legitimate as Al Qaeda is...

They are both Terrorist Organizations who need to be dismantled.

[slackmaster]

22. Question is irrelevant, like asking whether or not the Moon is legitimate

Go ahead and consider it illegitimate if it makes you happy, but it's still there.

[cali]

24. Bad analogy

The moon is a celestial body.
H'zbollah is an organization composed of humans.

Big difference.

[HornBuckler]

30. think about it - he makes a lot of sense

physical heavenly body - granted

real world group of humans - granted

they BOTH exist right now -

sure the moon was there before and probably after but that's just semantics.

[bryant69]

28. Hmmmmm

So why should we bother having a police force. After all shoplifting and burglery and murder and jaywalking are still there.

Bryant

[slackmaster]

41. An organization being called legitimate doesn't make it OK

Whether some people consider it legitimate or not, IMO it's in the best interests of the world at large to disband Hezbollah or at least curtail its ability to wage war.

[rinsd]

54. Good point....legitimacy is emotional semantics

Hezbollah exists, its legitimacy is a non-factor beyond the propaganda wars.

[Laotra]

25. Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria, Taif

"The Lebanese root cause of this problem is that the Shi'ites are terribly under-represented in parliament. They have been kept at the bottom of the Lebanese political heap despite being the largest sectarian community in Lebanon. They accepted this position in the 1989 Taif Accords, largely because Syria allowed them to keep their weapons. Since Syria left Lebanon in 2005 the other Lebanese communities – Sunnis, Druze, and Christian - have been demanding that Hezbollah give up its military weapons. At the same time, they have refused to allow the Shiites their proper constitutional role in government. They can’t have it both ways. If a deal to disarm Hizbullah is to be made in Lebanon, the Shi'ites, who represent 40 per cent of the population, will have to get close to 40 percent representation in parliament. This is going to be a major headache.

America professes that it wants a democratic solution to the Middle East, but it is refusing to promote true democracy in Lebanon. This is an analogy to the Hamas problem in Palestine and it is one of the reasons why Hezbollah and Hamas find themselves on the same side and why Arabs throughout the Middle East are rooting for them. So long as there is no solution to this fundamental injustice, there will be no peace in the Middle East. American and Israeli military might is no replacement for equity, justice and democracy.

The way Hezbollah has justified maintaining its arms is by focusing on its resistance role. If you want to eliminate that role of resistance, Hezbollah is going to have to be brought into the political center of Lebanon’s government so it becomes an established power, not an outsider throwing stones at a government dominated by others.

Syria helped broker the Taif accord, along with Saudi Arabia and America. The Americans were interested in maintaining Christian power in Lebanon, which they succeeded in doing by making sure that the Christian seats in the Lebanese parliament were not reduced below 50 per cent even though they constitute roughly 40% of the Lebanese population. The Saudis were interested in maintaining Sunni power in Lebanon which they succeeded in doing by making the Sunnis the most over-represented community in Lebanon - they were allotted the same number of seats as the Shi’ites even though the Sunnis are half as numerous. So in effect, a Sunni Lebanese is worth two Shi’a Lebanese in political terms. The Syrians went along with the deal because they wanted to look like good actors and, most importantly, because they were going to disarm the Sunnis and Christians and allow the Shi’ites to maintain their military weapons to act as a resistance to Israel. This allows Syria to maintain pressure on Israel to give back the Golan Heights.

All the outside actors were happy and the Shi’ites were compensated for their under-representation in constitutional power by gaining extra-constitutional powers in the form of the right to bear arms. Now the international community, Saudi Arabia and the US most particularly, wants to disarm Hizbullah without compensating the Shi’ites. Syria is not going to stand by and watch this happen. This also means that the Taif Accord is now effectively dead."

More:
http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/index.html

[Marie26]

27. I can't tell if

you're doing all these polls to trick people into supporting Hizbollah, or as some sort of satire on how easy it is to lead people sideways to a place they wouldn't go directly.

[bryant69]

32. I'm trying to spark discussion

But an important fringe benefit is the opportunity to annoy people.

[Marie26]

33. Always important! :)

I hope I've done my part.

[Massacure]

29. Define legitimacy.

This poll is pointless as there is no definition of legitimacy.

[bryant69]

42. Apparently you failed to read the text below th title

and above the poll choices.

While you might disagree with this definition of legitamacy or feel it is inadequate, there is a definition provided.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Igel]

43. Thanks.

I've wondered why when push came to shove it was difficult to even agree on facts.

Now I know.

People are taking bias as objectivity. The Contras were, by the measure used by some people here (in granting legimitacy to Hezbollah), every bit as legitimate as Hezbollah; they had the support of some people, they had an ideology, they had some sort of structure and political program. But they were on the wrong side: people that weren't really part of the people supported them, their ideology was wrong, their structure was obvious inappropriate, and their program was wrong. So by any "objective" (viz. "personally favored") measure, they were illegitimate.

Edited to avoid a bunch of ambiguity.

[NaturalHigh]

59. Hezbollah is no more legitimate...

than the crips or bloods or any other pack of thugs.

[Finder]

62. How many crips or bloods have been elected to our congress? n/t

[NaturalHigh]

66. If they were elected...

would they then be "legitimate"? To me, a thug is always a thug, and terrorist scum is always terrorist scum.

[Renew Deal]

84. Peter King was elected

and he was a terrorist supporter in the 80's.

[Renew Deal]

83. Perfect analogy.

Only lots more weapons.

[NJ Democrats]

69. 1) Not legit AT ALL

[scarletwoman]

70. It would really help if folks were more informed. As it is, disinformation

and misinformation abounds.

For some accurate history about Hezbollah, go here: Hizballah: A Primer -- as posted in my thread here: Hizballah: A Primer

sw

[cali]

73. Accurate history, my foot.

Sins of ommission and shaping of narrative. Why choose such a biased source?

[scarletwoman]

75. Lara Deeb is a "biased source"? I guess if you're

ant-cultural anthropologists or anti-women's studies.

Would you care to elaborate on the basis of your charge of "bias"?

Thanking you in advance,
sw

[The Magistrate]

76. It Is An Excellent History, Ma'am

Granted, it is prepared by a student of the Shia of Lebanon, and so to some degree reflects their view: people tend to fall a little in love with they study intently, it is part of the process of understanding.

But it is honestly prepared, and does not leave out facts or whitewash matters: everything of importance is there. It provides excellent back-ground information on a situation not widely known outside specialist circles.

[cali]

77. Yes, it's informative

but it does indeed shape a narrative and yes, whitewash information, though I agree it does provide excellent background information.

Here's one example of whitewashing:

" Samir al-Qantar, who has been in jail for 27 years for killing three Israelis after infiltrating the border."

A bland little statement that omits the full story of what al-Qantar did, as well as omitting the fact that he's been praised repeatedly by Nasrallah.

[The Magistrate]

78. In A Piece Of That Length, Ma'am

Focused on the whole narrative of the organization and the melieu from which it springs, one cannot expect that level of detail on any particular item concerning one individual, particularly one not involved as anything but a gun-man without rank or authority. If someone wrote a similar length over-view of, say, Zionist policy in the thirties and forties, would you consider it a whitewash if it merely said that Irgun gun-men killed a number of Arabs, or would you require full details of every action they committed?

[Selatius]

74. Hezbollah is! It doesn't matter whether it is legitimate or not!

If you are being attacked by an Iraqi insurgent while on foot patrol, I really don't think you give a shit whether the man shooting at you is shooting because he lost his family in one of your air raids, or shooting at you because he's a religious nutjob, or shooting at you because you're on his land. All you know is you want him to stop shooting at you, or you want him dead.

How many here think the IRA being "legitimate" or not has anything to do with the fact that it exists regardless of what we think?

It's like trying to tell who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist.

[Renew Deal]

79. There is so much wrong with the results of this poll

Hezbollah is completely legit because of what exactly? I hope this comes more from anger than true feeling, because if this result is a legit representation, there are some sick people.

[jonnyblitz]

81. they are a political party with elected officials. just because

we call them terrorists doesn't mean they aren't legitimate to the people who elected them. this isn't rocket science.

[Renew Deal]

82. The people elected

have credibility in their own right. What about those stockpiling weapons independent of the central government?

[Asgaya Dihi]

85. Legitimate to who?

As someone else pointed out already the British called our revolutionary hero's terrorists because they wouldn't engage in a stand-up fight most of the time and ambushed from the woods among other tactics. They won the war so became hero's instead.

I don't exactly support either side, both have been too extreme for that, but my sympathies are more with the Arabs than they've ever been before in my life. If a couple of Israelis are killed we're quick to call it terrorism but when they kill three times as many in retaliation we call that collateral damage and blame it on them for not getting out of the way. That's the same logic Bin Laden used to hit the towers, we have become the enemy.

Besides, the Gaza strip is starting to remind me too much of the Polish ghettos in the 1930's before the concentration camps got going. Israel has become their own enemy as well and I think they are too close to it to realize it, but what they've built is ugly, unjustified, and becoming all too familiar. They are too comfortable doing to others what was once done to them.

edit to=too, typo