Question to weopon experts , Why can't Katyusha's be simply intercepted ?

[UndertheOcean]

I mean , don't they make anti-rocket batteries ?

And if they're laser guided they'd be very accurate .. why not target the missiles at the Katyusha's rather than civilian structures..

won't that mitigate Israels problem..

Sorry if I sound like a total novice when it comes to weapons.

[MADem]

1. Because they have no GUIDANCE systems.

Interception of rockets relies on being able to fry or scramble or lock on and track the electronics systems guiding said missile. They're aren't any on these. They just sort out a trajectory in advance (or take a wild ass guess) and light the fucker off. Again, and again, and again.

[TomInTib]

4. Well put

kinda like a bottle-rocket war.

[Mr_Spock]

9. "bottle-rocket"

That's exaclty how I see those things.

Bottle rockets against precision guided & designed to kill as many humans as possible missles.

I wonder who is winning the "killing more people" contest? :eyes:

[MADem]

18. Well, they are desperately launching their bottle rockets against

fuel farms, gas terminals, and other targets in Haifa that, if hit right, could go BOOM to rival a fucking nuke.

You cannot really be suggesting that it's "OK" simply so long as they miss??? They don't MEAN it? Only because they are INCOMPETENT?

Of course they MEAN it, they've just not got good shit. If they had it, Haifa would be toast, Tel Aviv would be toast, the only city NOT toast would be Jerusalem, because they want to occupy it and toss out all the Jews and Christians. They want that entire land mass, though, make no mistake. And they want it "cleansed" of pesky Jews.

This is ten steps up from a shit/fertilizer/diesel fuel bomb that killed 241 American peacekeepers in Beirut twenty some odd years ago (and was, at the time, the biggest explosion since HIROSHIMA)....it is absurdly naive to think they aren't going to keep gleefully climbing the ladder of destruction.

What happens if they get lucky, and Haifa is GONE??

What rung do they need to be on before they are equal to the Jews on the DU BAD GUY scale?

What happens if they get lucky and hit, and there's a Hiroshima-like explosion in the port of Haifa?

I don't give these bastards a pass because they get shitty weapons from Iran today.

What if they one day get good weapons from China?

I've seen them at work; they're BUMS. There is NOTHING noble about their cause, and they bear a preponderance of the blame for the suffering of the Lebanese people.

[Mr_Spock]

20. So lets murder them all

That will solve the problem.

If they kill one more civilian I am taking names of those who support the mass killing of innocent civilians.

Haifa destroyed by a missle - what a bunch of childish ridiculous tripe!

[MADem]

30. Oh, my...and why haven't they chosen you to lead the UN, I wonder?

Great solution you got there...not.

[Karmakaze]

40. You can say the same thing about Israel

"They want that entire land mass, though, make no mistake. And they want it "cleansed" of pesky Jews."

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

[MADem]

45. Well, if we want to pretend the UN has no moral authority, sure

But Israel has fallen in line with UN thought on this matter, and has come a VERY long way since Begin's remarks way, way back then, and so has the Palestinian Authority, to give them credit as well. But they have NOTHING to do with Iran's militia, the Hiz'b'Allah, nothing at ALL, beyond a bond of hatred. They don't mesh at all, culturally or religiously. And Sharon has been in a coma for months, is for all intents and purposes, dead, and he sure as hell doesn't represent the totality of thought in Israel. He was a compromise leader, remember. As a nation, they were always a few notches the other way from him...of course, Hizb'Allah is doing a great job shoving them a few notches back.

And Israel did not start this Northern mess up. Hizb'Allah did. And they could END it, NOW. Turn over the bodies of those two kids (and we know they are probably dead, just like the last bunch they took) and stop shooting rockets. Let the Lebanese Army secure the border. Dismantle the militia, IAW 1559.

No side in this thing is "right"--there is no "right" in this. But there is plenty of blame to go around, and it's remarkable how many people forget to give Hizb'allah their fair dollop, to say nothing of their patron, Iran, and their facilitator, Syria.

[TheWraith]

57. Go crazy much?

For one thing, no fuel terminal could ever rival a nuke. The largest chemical explosions in history can only compete with the smallest nukes ever built, and if you weren't exaggerating the threat beyond all possible perspective, you would know that. You'd also know that the chances of a Katyusha rocket producing secondary explosions are also very slim to the point of nonexistance.

If what you said was true, wouldn't it also apply to the Israelis, who are dropping not 40 pound unguided rockets, but 3000 pound laser guided bombs? By your logic, they seem to want to cleanse the border area of pesky Lebanese.

I've got no great love for Hezbollah, but the Israelis are clearly the ones in the driver's seat for this thing.

[MADem]

66. I beg your pardon?

Look what Hezbollah managed to do with just a dump truck:

A month later, a five-ton Mercedes dump truck hurled past sandbagged Marine sentries and smashed through a guardhouse into the ground floor of the "Beirut Hilton," the U.S. military barracks in a former PLO headquarters next to the international airport. The truck's payload was an incredible 12,000 pounds of high explosives. "It is said to have been the largest non-nuclear blast ever detonated on the face of the earth." "The force of the explosion," continues Eric Hammel in his history of the Marine landing force, "initially lifted the entire four-story structure, shearing the bases of the concrete support columns, each measuring fifteen feet in circumference and reinforced by numerous one and three quarter inch steel rods. The airborne building then fell in upon itself. A massive shock wave and ball of flaming gas was hurled in all directions." The Marine (and Navy) death toll of 241 was the Corps' highest single-day loss since Iwo Jima in 1945...
http://www.juancole.com/2006/07/congress-expects-islamic-dawa-to.html

Sorry, I am not rooting for the Iranian team to win this one.

[Clarkie1]

39. Bottle rockets with hundreds of pieces of metal inside. nt

[MADem]

46. Ball bearings, and sometimes nails and feces....the better to

deeply cut and infect one.

[dipsydoodle]

54. Yes that's how I've heard them described -

a shell on a stick : nothing sophisticated and less accurute than a Roman ballista. Sort of explosive popsicle really.

[TheWraith]

12. Very well put.

Katyushas really are giant bottle rockets. And in any event, destroying a missile or rocket inflight is easier said than done--it's kind of like trying to use a handgun to shoot down a pop fly in a baseball game.

[rman]

41. can lock onto heat- or visual signature

see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcmI6UnR4gg&search=laser%20israeli%20mthel

[MADem]

51. It is not operational yet

The Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL) program is a key component of U.S.-Israel strategic cooperation designed to counter short-range rockets. Israel faces a constant threat from Hezbollah-guerillas staging attacks on its northern border. The THEL, still in developmental stages, will serve to protect Israeli troops and civilians in advent of these affronts.The THEL precursor, the Nautilus, destroyed a short-range rocket in flight during testing in February 1996 at a site in New Mexico, nine months after the project was launched. This was the first time a laser has ever destroyed a ballistic missile.
In April 1996 the U.S. agreed to accelerate high energy laser development after Hezbollah guerrillas fired over two dozen of Katyusha rockets at Israel during its 17-day period operation against the terrorists. Soon after, both President Clinton and former U.S. Defense Secretary William Perry have pledged to expand work on the THEL.

THEL will be a transportable laser weapon system which will be used by both the Israeli Defense Forces and eventually will have applications for the U.S. Army. The U.S. Army Space and Strategic Defense Command and the Israel Ministry of Defense are managing the program and the test program is conducted at the High Energy Laser Test Facility (HELSTF) in New Mexico.

The system is capable of intercepting both the Katyushas in the hands of the Hizbullah in Lebanon and the Kassam missiles fired at Israel from Gaza, controlled by the Palestinian Authority. These missiles are also liable to be stationed in the West Bank, from where they could threaten Ben Gurion Airport.

The choice of the Israeli and US companies' concept was a preliminary step in producing an operational prototype of the MTEL, the mobile version of the THEL. Production is scheduled for completion in 2004, and the project is slated to end in 2007.

The laser could be in use in 2007. Since development began in 1996, the Army, the Israeli Defense Ministry and TRW had spent $250 million on the project through 2002.


http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/systems/THEL.html

[rman]

52. That's what people said of F117 stealth technology

Turned out it was operational years before it was made public. The military has this habbit of doing things in secret.

Moreover, what's new about high power lasers is not the target tracking technology. "Heat seeking" is hardly new technology, and although locking on to visual signature is more recent, it's not exactly science fiction.

[MADem]

53. Well, they weren't doing promo videos of the stealth fighter either

while it was being tested. That was a bit different.

If this thing were operational, we'd know about it, I'm thinking...unless it ain't performing to specs. Too many rockets are hitting Haifa and points thereabout, so if this thing is in fact deployed, it's a total piece of shit....

[lvx35]

2. Cost prohibitive and they are low flying.

The lebanese have figured out how to make missiles in a garage practically, and those patriots are spendy. (and how many israelis have died? 20?) plus they are small, fly low and tend not to hit things, so sending up a patriot for every one would bankrupt them.

But speaking of lasers and guidance, I just wonder how long it will take for the lebanese to find a way to rig in GPS devices into their rockets...they are so cheap these days, its worrisome. But hey, then again maybe if they hit what they were aiming for we could actually tell whether or not hezbollah actually wants to kill civilians...

[UndertheOcean]

8. Well, its enough to read the history of the Lebanese Civil war , and

the 150,000 civilians killed to know that none of the factions in lebanon really give a shit about targeting civilians.

[MADem]

19. Jesus, the LEBANESE are NOT making these rockets and missiles

The IRANIANS are.

And they are being shipped via Syria to the Hizb'Allah, who are being commanded and trained by Iranian Revolutionary Guards, and funded by Iranian Ayatullahs.

Good grief. The Lebanese are like an elderly couple suffering a house invasion. They have NO say in this matter.

[lvx35]

22. Scare tactics about the "axis of evil?"

It really sounds to me like you are repeating Bush's talking points. These rockets are not some high tech weaponry being imported from abroad. I have seen similar rockets being made in documentaries by palestinians, on the west bank.

[MADem]

24. Oh cut the crap--the Lebanese are NOT making those weapons

You start off with a chunk of stinking bullshit and want to be taken seriously. Sorry.

Do some reading.

Lebanon is NOT The West Bank. It's not GAZA, either, where most of the Filistine factories are.

You'd know that if you'd ever been there. Different worlds.

[lvx35]

29. What?

"Lebanon is NOT The West Bank. It's not GAZA, either, where most of the Filistine factories are. "

Did I say it was? No, I said that palestinians were making similar rockets themselves in simple conditions, without having to import them, thus demonstrating it was quite possible for the lebanese (some of whom are in fact members of hezbollah though this may suprise you) to make them without requiring Iranian support.

The idea that Lebanese are like a poor old woman sitting in a house is also silly. According to recent polls, 82% or the lebanese population now supports hezbollah, though this number was MUCH smaller before Israel invaded. This is very much a local phenomenon in Lebanon. No Axis of Evil involvement is required to explain these things.

Good night.

[MADem]

34. Hey, let me quote you, from your post

These rockets are not some high tech weaponry being imported from abroad.

If they are not coming from abroad, that means they are home-grown.

These are not home grown, they come from ANOTHER COUNTRY.

Seems pretty clear to me what you meant, unless you are one of those people that doesn't acknowledge borders amongst those "Islamic-kinda-sorta" countries, and assumes they are all the same...even when they don't speak the same LANGUAGE.

The rockets in question are Persian made, with elements of Chinese technology, shipped to Lebanon via Syria.

Good night to you, too.

[Moochy]

44. Weaponry imported from a 'broad' (Condaleeza Rice?)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/26/wmid26.xml

Britain has been used as a staging post for major shipments of bunker-busting bombs from America to Israel. The Israelis want the 5,000lb smart bombs to attack the bunkers being used by Hizbollah leaders in Lebanon.

Two chartered Airbus A310 cargo planes filled with GBU 28 laser-guided bombs landed at Prestwick airport, near Glasgow, for refuelling and crew rests after flying across the Atlantic at the weekend, defence sources confirmed. The airport has also been used by the CIA for rendition flights carrying terrorist suspects.

[MADem]

47. The poster's reference was weaponry for the militia, not Israel NT

[Moochy]

48. This I know

I can read. I was jumping your train to try and make a point about "weapons from abroad."

Apologies if it made you think.

[MADem]

50. Why "jump my train" at all? Why be so confrontational?

I'm well aware of the dynamic over there, and up to speed on developments, thanks anyway for your earnest concern.

But that wasn't the topic.

More like derail the train, rather than jump it.

[TheWraith]

58. Actually, none of that is neccessarily true.

The rockets are BM-21 class Katyusha style rockets. They were originally made in the Soviet Union, and variants are now produced in six countries, including China, Iran, North Korea, and Egypt.

Now, I've yet to see any actual evidence that the Iranians are actually making the particular rockets that make up the bulk of Hezbollah's capabilities. Or that they're anything other than Russian military surplus, for which there is a brisk trade in the Middle East.

Riddle me this: if Iran were actually providing the rockets, wouldn't they offer more than two or three of the longer-range rockets that everybody's been talking about but only barely been seen or used? If they had more of them, they'd have used them by now.

Similarly, there's no evidence other than the unreliable claims of the Israeli government, that there are any Iranian personell involved.

A paranoid person would suggest that these claims are part of a pretext for planning to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities.

Last but not least, support for Hezbollah is now quite strong in Lebanon, even among the Christian and Sunni populations. More to the point, they are home grown, not some group FedExed in from Iran or Syria. The bombing campaign by the Israelis has done nothing but strengthen the general public's support of Hezbollah and their opposition to Israel.

[MADem]

65. No evidence? Common knowledge, more like.

It's not speculation. It's fact.

Iranian Revolutionary Guard Teheran has supplied Hezbollah with approximately 11,500 missiles and projectiles.
http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=5651

DOZENS of Hezbollah rockets, including some with Iranian-made warheads, yesterday slammed into Israel's port city of Haifa, threatening to transform the rapidly escalating conflict into a direct confrontation with Tehran.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19812364-601,00.html


Israeli officials have been complaining about massive Iranian airlifts to Hezbollah since March 2001, when Prime Minister Ariel Sharon warned that Iran, "in full cooperation with Syria," was providing Hezbollah with large numbers of rockets capable of hitting "the center of the country."1
http://www.meib.org/articles/0211_l2.htm

But rockets that hit cities deeper into Israel, like the ones that killed eight people in Haifa, are suspected of being a newer version of the Katyusha — most likely the Iranian-made mid-range Fajr-3 and Fajr-5.
"This is definitely beyond their ability to build themselves," said Guy Ben-Ari, a senior fellow at the Center for International and Strategic Studies. "These are military grade. There is nothing secondhand or homemade about them."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/20/world/main1821335.shtml

WASHINGTON The power and sophistication of the missile and rocket arsenal that Hezbollah has used in recent days has caught the United States and Israel off guard, and officials in both countries are just now learning the extent to which the militant group has succeeded in getting weapons from Iran http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/19/news/missile.php[/i>


Just because Iran denies something, doesn't mean they are telling the truth; they're horrible liars, they've been lying since Khomeini came back and promised that women wouldn't lose the gains they had made in terms of access to higher education and equality. And then, there's this: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9D847ABA-473C-488B-9288-08F51C0D04D3.htm

If I had to guess where Nasrallah was, since he came back from his jaunt to Iran and Syria, I'd say he's probably in the Iranian embassy--becaise they're denying it: http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0607260070122239.htm


I'm sure they have a few feet of imagery documenting the transfers of the weaponry and full knowledge of the storage sites over the years. It's likely why they were hitting in some odd places with relatively little weaponry, and making massive explosions.

The very temporary unity of disparate religions due to anger at the US for not stopping this business will fade once this is past, and Nasrallah's crew does something stupid like attack a Christian church....again. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-muslims6feb06,0,4694855.story?coll=la-home-headlines There's a "common enemy" element at play here, that will not stand the test of a long alliance.


But, whatever. Believe what you'd like.

[Rex]

3. Too low tech.

Ain't that a bitch? Countries spend billions on R&D, only to be trumped by an outdated rocket.

[Cobalt-60]

16. Robert Heinlein once said

The ultimate weapon is a kitchen knife in the hands of a man who's had enough.
Granted I'm an atavist, I would hardly call the Katusha outdated.
The only improvements possible in its design are improved propellants and lighter structure.
Guidance would make it expensive and subject to jamming.
A weapons should be simple and reliable. Katushas are.

[Rex]

Should have put "" around outdated.

If it wasn't for American 'terrorist' tactics against the British, I'd be saying "evenin govner".

[Bob Dole]

21. They could be improved in several ways.

The guidance system could certainly be improved. I don't mean anything that could be jammed, like radar. A few tailfin and body modifications would make it fly in a much straighter line.

[Forrest Greene]

5. Be Happy

...that you are a total novice to weapons. Stay that way.

[Selatius]

6. Too small to hit, too low to track

Katyusha rockets are very small and fly very low. Scud missiles are much larger and tend to have a very high trajectory. Anti-ballistic missiles are usually built to handle larger targets like scuds, but Katyusha rockets are very small in comparison. Their warheads are very small, so if they hit, you will less likely have a mass-casualty event where dozens of people are killed in one blow. These are not V-2 rockets they are launching like Nazi Germany at Londoners. One of those things could level half a city block.

[The Traveler]

7. That;s difficult

It is an adaptation of a FROG (Soviet era "Free Rocket Over Ground".) Launch setup is quick. It is not guided by active radar or other emitting systems, so they have a relatively small signature. Range is short, so time of flight to target is also short. Apogee of the trajectory is low (max height of flight path). They are small, and small fast moving targets are hard to hit. They can be launched en-masse with simple coordination.

The good news is that they are not accurate. The bad news is that they are not accurate. A FROG aimed at a military position will often blow up the school down the street. Their tactical effectiveness is therefore questionable, except when deployed in large numbers as we have been seeing. They are best thought of as a form of artillery. Soviet military manuals literally described such rockets as "cannon balls that burn and run".

[everythingsxen]

10. Katyusha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha_rockets

Well, the basic problem with interception is that Hezbollah fires tons of them at a time, they are designed to be fired in huge volleys.

As far as using laser guided weapons to hit the launchers... well that's where it gets tricky. If you want to use a laser guided weapon, someone actually has to have the laser shining on the target. The Lebanese army has been trying to prevent ground forces from entering, which is of course one way to laser guide.

Israel is trying to minimize their own casualties and the best way for that is high speed targeted bombing runs which unfortunately is not all that accurate.

They do have some "smart weapons" but they have a lower supply of those than standard weapons. Also they are not so smart, they did go through the U.S. education system after all. :P

[Bob Dole]

11. Interception of small rockets

Israel and the US have developed a laser based system capable of intercepting small rockets(Like the Katyushas), artillery rounds, and mortar shells. Per shot, it's a hell of a lot cheaper(And more accurate) than a Patriot missile or similar, and cheaper per kill than a Phalanx CIWS(There are ground based versions). It works by heating the warhead(In the case of a mortar or artillery round) till it explodes, or, in the case of a rocket, by heating it so that it falls apart(Although in-air warhead detonation is preferable).
But it still hasn't been deployed, and may not be for a few years - Plus, they're trying to cover a lot of border. It's not a lot of border for a country, but it's still a pretty large area.

[Poll_Blind]

13. Israel has MTHEL-actuallycan shoot down Katyusha rockets. (see VIDEO link)

MTHEL in Israel- Katyusha's mentioned a few times. Worth seeing. Sound may not be present until about 37 seconds into it, but it goes from there on.

PB

[MADem]

25. Fascinating...ya gotta wonder how much of the presentation is a

PENTAGON WARS spin job...but the tech has promise.

[lapfog_1]

27. So, it can, according to the video, shoot down multiple

targets, including mortar shells and Katyusha rockets...

So why doesn't Israel have about 100 of these along the Lebanon border?

Can't be for lack of funds or permission, after all, the video shows IDF using the widget.

So, either it doesn't really work (possible)... OR Israel doesn't really want to stop Katyushas (also possible).

[MADem]

32. The tin foil on the top and on the legs of the thing made me suspect

that those tests might have been conducted under "optimal" conditions.

Otherwise, Israel would have one of those muthas every ten feet along every damn border, and we would gladly foot the bill for them. NO MATTER the cost!!!!

The film had a PENTAGON WARS quality about it (if you have never seen that film, GET IT...it will bust your gut and make you sick, all at the same time). http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/

General, it says here that you taped electric hotplates to the surface of the vehicle to help your heat-seeking missile find its target, and that the surface temperature of the vehicle was so high it could have fried an egg at twenty feet!

http://viasat.live.noname4us.com.nyud.net:8090/images/archive/0117/m_011798.jpg

Olympia Dukakis plays an Olympia Snowe character in it, and that GOP bastard "Frasier" does a MASTERFUL job as a bastard general officer who has his stars hitched to a boondoggle wagon.

It's a grand film.

[lapfog_1]

36. This film was obviously made by whoever builds the laser system.

I've used to be the intended audience of such films, and you always take them with a very large grain of salt.

However, they usually have enough facts and proven technology in the system (since it was shown in a live demonstration rather than a animated "how it might operate once we build it" mode). And the film purports to be near the year 2000 (or at least 2000 is mentioned).
Given that 6 years have gone by, unless there was some real wool pulling going on, it would seem that massed versions of these, operated 24x7, would have been deployed at some point along the fixed border with Lebanon. In fact, it would seem that even though they indicate its a mobile platform, that a fixed defensive position would be ideal for this (though I'm guessing that the first mile or so of Lebanon wouldn't be all that great to live in, given the amount of radar that would be associated with a mass battery of these things).

Anyway, even if the test results are rigged, you'd still think that Israel would have deployed these things a year to two ago and at least be willing to try them now in a shooting war.

Which makes me think they don't want to shoot down the Katyushas.

[MADem]

37. See, I come to the PENTAGON WARS conclusion

which is the diametric opposite of your conclusion. I think this swell weapon is just like the adventures that preceded the rollout of the Bradley. Six years? That's an EYE BLINK. Their WHACK 'EM, SMACK 'EM ROCKETS is likely not even CLOSE to ready, and they're still possibly wrapping those feet in tin foil for some obscure reason.

And I'd not be surprised if not a single one of those things is deployed anywhere NEAR Israel. There may be a prototype or three at a Proving Ground somewhere, and an undermanned (due to Iraq) cadre of lazy bastards picking their teeth and waiting for work; and half the time getting stuck on BS duty.

They just may come up with something that delivers half of what they are promising now, in ten years, at twenty times the cost!!!

If you have not seen PENTAGON WARS, it's instructive. There is SO much wrong with the film from the POV of a military purist (uniforms, anachronisms, congressional hearing protocols, all sorts of stuff that rings false to someone who has done that work in that building) but EVEN with the glaring errors, there's a huge grain of truth in the thing that shines through, regardless.

That huge grain of truth is SO compelling that you forget the silly mistakes. It's a grand film.

[lapfog_1]

42. Every contractor wants a deployment contract, not a development

contract. You make only small fortunes with RnD contracts, you, your lobbyist, your bought and paid for congresscritter only make serious bucks (large fortunes) when there are orders to build a boatload of the widgets. Especially weapons widgets.

So there is every incentive to press it into service, whether it works or not.

Let's take the patriot as a prime example. It certainly didn't work as well as advertised. But it hit a couple of Scuds, or appeared to it news videos... and the whole world ordered a buttload of the things.

If this thing could knock down even a handful of Katyushas, and someone wanted it to, it would be there now, complete with embedded reporters and bottles of champaign chilling in the contractors boardroom.

[MADem]

49. Yep, as you said, IF it could...which is why I look at that tin foil on

the feet of that thing...it just looks...slapped on there. Like this thing is NOT yet ready for prime time.

The IDEA is positively addictive. A lot like the BRADLEY. Which took FOREVER to roll out, and cash kept getting thrown at it, because it kept changing it's mission and design, and when it did finally burst on the scene, it didn't do what it originally was supposed to do...

[jerry611]

14. Not really...

Katyushas are old (build by the Soviets in WW2). They're accuracy is horrible. And it takes forever to reload. However terrorist groups like Hezbollah likes to use them because they are very cheap. And they can be moved quickly or hidden easily.

The absence of a guidence system makes it impossible for anything to lock on to. They are also not in the air long enough for a Patriot interceptor anyway. Their range is limited to under 15 miles in most situations. And many times it doesn't even get that far.

But on a more bigger and longer-range missile, you would have a guidence system and it would be in the air for a significant amount of time. That would allow the Patriot system to have a chance at intercepting it.

Now the US military has some equitment and techniques that may be able to intercept them. And the Israelis could probably develop it. But it would not be cost-effective for them to install this technology that is really isn't battle tested anyway.

[longship]

15. All anti-missile systems are flawed in principle

They basically cannot work. This includes the Patriot batteries that were used in the Gulf War I and Reagan/Chimp chimerical Star Wars system.

1. Interception of high speed projectiles is extremely difficult and very expensive for the side wanting to implement the system.

2. Circumvention of the system is very easy. Just launch more missiles. Even modest increases in the number of incomings overwhelms the system or makes it too expensive to make it work.

3. Missile interception is a hit-or-miss business even under the most optimum conditions, which would be extremely rare in any real life war situation. The Star Wars tests were all highly contrived cheats where, for instance, the interceptor was pre-programmed with a known trajectory of the incoming missile.

Etc.

[Bob Dole]

17. It's not really hit and miss...

When you're using lasers and a modern AESA radar. Said radar updates extremely quickly and lasers, well, will hit anything they're pointed at.

[longship]

23. Lasers will hit anything they're pointed at????

What lasers are you talking about? There are a couple of systems they've discussed. They use a disproportional amount of energy to produce coherent light. This isn't a James Bond movie; this is real world. High power lasers that blow things up just aren't that practical, or small.

Maybe you are talking about x-ray lasers? They'd be deployed in space to intercept a missile after boost phase. Of course, these things are one-use lasers, triggered by an atomic explosion. Putting them in space violates a whole lot of common sense and a few international treaties against weaponizing space.

And how many of those will we need when all an opponent has to do is launch more missiles to overwhelm it? When your opponent is spending 50 million dollars to shoot down each of your 1/2 million dollar missiles, doubling or tripling the number of your missiles makes good offensive sense given that it will likely nullify your opponent's defenses, or break his bank trying to keep his defenses up. Anti-missile systems are a nightmare for weapons reduction advocates.

BTW, do you know how many Star Wars tests have been successful? I'm not sure of the exact percentage, but I don't think it's 50%. So not only are the systems impractical and expensive, but they don't seem to work too well.

[Bob Dole]

26. Yes, they do.

Well, not EVERYTHING, but something within a few miles of a light source is, as far as anything that isn't moving at thousands of miles a second is concerned, hit pretty much instantly. And, as mentioned, they do not cost nearly as much as a patriot missile to fire. Around 1000(Maybe 10,000) US dollars, I believe. Certainly no 50 million.

And yes, the lasers are fairly small, for their purpose, and for laser weapons - They can be carried on the back of most transport trucks. I believe there was a video posted earlier.


This is not about 'Star Wars' at all, by the way. SDI is for large, long range ballistic missiles - Katyushkas are neither.

[longship]

33. Fine, fine, then.

I'll just put a mirror finish on my warheads. Not enough energy will be absorbed to damage them. Then, my opponent can shoot all the lasers he wants and it won't stop the missiles.

Then what will you do with your multi-trillion dollar laser-based missile defense system.

BTW, you do know that ICBM's travel at a speed on the order of Mach 10. Your lasers aren't going to have much time on each target. I'm going to make sure of that. I'll just launch enough of them that all my targets will have a reasonable chance of being hit. I'll accept some risk of misses and hitting metropolitan areas in order to insure target coverage. This is well within my country's military budget. I know that your country will not be able to keep up with it since you'll be spending orders of magnitude more money to defend than I will to offend. The law of dimishing returns rules the game. You lose.

[Bob Dole]

63. A mirror finish on a missile will...

Not help at all.


And, again, please listen this time: This is not about defense against ICBMs. This is about defense against small rockets, which are significantly easier to hit and which M-THEL and the like have a proven, repeatedly demonstrated effect against.(Something like 50 of these rockets have been shot down in one test session)

[longship]

64. Citation?

Please provide citation for your claim. I would like to read about this.

BTW, a mirror finish WILL reflect the energy of a LASER. A partially reflective surface will reflect part of the energy. This is a physical fact.

[MADem]

28. Well, not to hop in this fight betwixt you two

...but a laser IS a handy thing to have when you want to MARK a target so someone else can come along and blast the shit out of it. As a weapon at this point, though, it IS a bit iffy, unless you want simply to blind helo pilots coming up on your intel ships disguised as fishing vessels.

I take your point about Star Wars, and agree with you completely.

Waste of money; hell, we would have gotten more value added if they'd just...given it to Halliburton or some other piggy contractor outright....at least they employ a sector of the economy in their nefarious enterprises!!

[Moochy]

31. Katyushas are murderous weapons at this range

They are necessarily immoral weapons when use at the ranges that Hezbollah is using them. Werent they designed to
attack armor at close range?

Likewise indiscriminate bombing of enemy irregulars in densely populated civilians is also immoral.

killing one bad guy along with 30+ innocents
vs.
an unguided rocket landing on and killing an innocent Israeli civilian.

Both are evil acts, one is anonymous murder from 20 miles out, another has the "side effect" of murdering innocents while accomplishing a "legitimate" act of war.

The weak and the conquered are always the ones that are blamed for all the misfortune that has befallen them.

[Hekate]

35. Wasn't that the fantasy that was spoon-fed to Ronald Reagan?

Doesn't work, but it's made billions for the "defense" industry here.

Aside from that, the other posters are probably right about the size and altitude of Katushyas presenting a problem.

Hekate

[rman]

43. High Power Laser is no fantasy

The "Star Wars" project was largely fantasy, but that doesn't mean all elements of it are nonsense.
Also that was some 20 years ago; technology has advanced since.

[JackNewtown]

38. 60 year old cheap rockets can't be intercepted

Yet, Bush and co. tell us that high-tech, modern Russian or Chinese missiles could be intercepted. It would be funny if it didn't cost us billions of dollars.

[Crunchy Frog]

55. They don't really need to be.

They're so ineffective that they almost never even hit an inhabited area. When they do, they rarely cause more than minimal property damage. It's extremely rare for them to actually kill or injure a person.

There ought to be much better ways to deal with them than by leveling inhabited buildings that might be harboring a few of them.

[TheLastMohican]

56. I can't understand

why is everybody calling them "Katyushas"?

Katyusha is a WW2 guard's mortar of the Soviet Army and has nothing to do with the BM-21 "Grad" Rocket.

It is the same thing as to call every American tank a "Sherman".

"Sgt. Pepper, the Shermans are here, the Iraqis are fuked".

[TheWraith]

60. Sort of a colloquialism, I believe.

The original design for the truck-mounted MLRS was called "Katyusha" by the Russians, and subsequent generations of similar design were commonly called Katyushas as a general name for unguided rocket artillery.

[deaniac21]

59. Israel doesn't have enough quality defensive backs.

[sweetheart]

61. The wall is not tall enough

1000 feet on the wall should fix that... or fixed vertical impulse lasers that fire straight
up out of the top of the wall along the path of border rocket fire.

That fancy mobile system is exactly "mobile", and a fixed system of lasers would be better chanced.

But that said, its not really about taking out the rockets, its about an excuse to war and take the winnings
from the war like no givebacks of land. No interest then in stopping rockets and tolerating a neighbor, when
all those nice valleys are begging for a star of david.

[Lilith Velkor]

62. Oh, they'll give it back

...after they've taken all the water they want.