I'm an atheist, so

[MoseyWalker]

always watch the religion wars with angst and sorrow.

Someone always says, "I'm on this side, so this is the reason this is wrong"

Someone else always comes back with, "well, I'm on this side, and this is the reason this is right"

Then someone else chimes in with "well, I'm not really on either side, but.........."

then someone else responds "well, I'm not really on either side either, but..........."

And NONE OF IT MAKES ANY SENSE TO ME

I always come back to the issue.

Are people being killed?

Yes?

That is wrong.

I don't give a shit what your beliefs are. If people are being killed, that is wrong. I don't care what country they are in, I don't care how young or old they are, I don't care.

that is wrong.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[beam me up scottie]

1. Thank you.

From an atheist who has spent her entire life looking at the problems caused by religion and going :wtf:

[mike_c]

2. yep-- me too....

:wtf:

[beam me up scottie]

4. Explain to me again exactly WHY their god doesn't want me to buy Plan B?

And the part about persecuting homosexuals, I never really got that either.

[MoseyWalker]

6. My understanding thus far

is:

sperm is sacred. Ovums that produce possible human eggs are sacred.

Then, there's something about seed being spilled and eggs with alien fundy genetics, and then they lost me.

The part about homosexuals is easy to explain.

Man should not be with man. It is an abomination. The bible says so.

The reason for that is because Jesus never had sexual relations with anybody, and his parents were embarassed.

Conversation:

Mother Mary: Jesus. Who was that cute girl I saw you talking to at the temple?

Jesus: Oh, that was just Mary Magdalene. She's a friend, ya know?

Mother Mary: Jesus. What the hell did I tell you about hanging out with prostitutes?

Jesus: Well, mom, she's really nice, and I got tired of spilling my seed with all the other gay guys.

(please take this as humor! I have had many gay friends over the years, and some of them were even religious. Shit. I just pissed everybody off)

[beam me up scottie]

9. BWAHAHAHA !!!

Oh, okay, I completely understand now.
:rofl:

You're going to fit in just fine here.

Welcome to DU!

[Canuckistanian]

26. LOL

Yes, sperm certainly IS sacred to these fundies. It's the "precious bodily fluid", and to waste it in a barren field is worse than... well, I can't figure it out.

[Rex]

27. Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good.

Don't waste that shit man...God gets quite irate!

[Canuckistanian]

25. Second that

:wtf:

[michaelpush]

3. Its all about Nature,

A lot of humans still function on a primitive level, doesn't matter what they believe, they will find a way to justify what they do. Its not about religion, its about basic instincts. People are irrational, selfish, self centered, power hungry creatures, by nature. It cant be overcome by many thats why the world is such a mess in so many places. Sorry to say, you cant change that.

[krkaufman]

35. A major characteristic that I think you left out: fearful.

I believe humans are also wired to be fearful, of the "other" and the unknown. Some people cope considerably better than others, but -- in my opinion -- you'll find fundies and Right Wingers, in general, ameliorate their fear through doctrines of certainty.

[michaelpush]

39. "fearful" is one of the most

intense primitive emotions, which, rules rational thought. It is good in certain situations, like getting out of the way of a train, but, when it becomes a tool for political gain and to control people, thats when its dangerous. Then it intensifies and becomes paranoia.

[Taxloss]

5. Without wanting to be drummed out of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy

after years of membership:

The Middle East is a hugely strategic geographic crossroads with vast quantities of the world's most valuable strategic energy resources and precious little fertile land and fresh water. You could clear out all its present inhabitants, replace them with the same number of pacifist atheists cloned from one breeding pair pre-selected for their calmness, articulacy, cooperative natures and passivity, and within a week they'd be divided into eight or more teams and knocking the shit out of each other.

In my humble opinion.

[Mr_Spock]

10. Or, you might have China

Different cultural backgrounds do have different results.

[krkaufman]

36. Very possibly. Especially if all else remains the same ....

... and you have external influences affecting the state of affairs ... assasinating members of one group to foment divisions, in order to create political leverage and opportunities for exploitation.

[The Straight Story]

7. It does not make sense to me, but

I am not sure religion is the whole motivating factor here or in other wars.

It is an easy scapegoat, but then I refer back to my thread on hatred between DU and freeperland here. People can, and do, hate - for many reasons outside of religion.

ONE cause may be religion - but to me there are many more causes which have to do more with rhetoric and idealism than religion.

I don't see, nor have I ever, Hitler being religious - but he motivated people by hate of things nonetheless.

FEAR is what we motivate with. Fear of bush, fear of fundies, fear of muslims, etc and so on. In short - fear of death of ourselves and those we love.

Hatred sucks no matter the reason or source. We hate those who don't share our views (politically, scientifically, etc and so on) and that breeds enemies all over.

[MoseyWalker]

8. You are absolutely right on with your observations

I would only add that it seems that wars for religious reasons seem to involve and kill a lot more people. I may be wrong, and am thinking right now about genocides in Africa that seemed to be political in nature, but I don't know enough about the reasons for those atrocities.

[The Straight Story]

12. My take on that:

If someone truly believed in their faith, they would not wage a war.

Hitler was not a man of the faith, he was more motivated by national pride, etc and so on. Faith let him down as he wanted results right now versus over time. He used any method he could to promote his hate and agenda. Mein Kampf was pretty straight forward (to me) and yet many signed on to his ideals. And it was not due to religion imho.

Not that religion cannot and does not lead to wars - my point is that if we focus on just religion as a reason for war we overlook so much.

That is one reason I posted this today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1780423&mesg_id=1780423

It ain't about religion to me, it's about hatered of others and their ideals.

[sgxnk]

33. bingo

the soviet union, and communist china (among others) are proof positive the problem aint religion

it's a people thing

[malaise]

11. Thank you n/t

[Ron Green]

13. You don't have to be an atheist to watch this stuff with angst and sorrow.

My own concept of God has nothing to do with the way these people have divided themselves from each other, except to call me to forgive their folly, even as what they do angers and disappoints me.

Religion is a way to control people, just as government is another way, and the market is the other. You ask why it's so hard to understand that it's wrong to kill people, and here's the answer:

It's not hard to understand. The natural state of mankind is fear and slavery, and just as the institutions I listed above can enslave, so can they free people. We've had times of peace, and times of war. Back and forth, back and forth.

[MoseyWalker]

17. Thanks for your response

"just as the institutions I listed above can enslave, so can they free people"

Yes, they can try, but think about people like Nelson Mandela. No one ever made him a slave, and they tried for something like 27 years while he was in prison.

I don't want people to be enslaved by institutions, or by their own belief systems, to the point that these things happen.

[Floogeldy]

14. I understand perfectly.

Good post! :)

[iamahaingttta]

15. Wars are NEVER about religion...

...wars are ALWAYS about resources!

Religion is just the insanity that the masters use to control the peasants and get them riled up to fight in those wars. They always fight over stuff 'n things. The crazier the religious hoooey, the easier it is to get the peasants confused, angry and motivated. Then the masters insert the right kind of propaganda, and they can get the peasants to DO THINGS CONTRARY TO THEIR RELIGIOUS DOGMA so that the masters can steal whatever resources they are after this time. It's one of the oldest games and yet there are still vast swaths of the peasantry that fall for it EVERY TIME!

And of course, it is always wrong...

[poverlay]

30. Right~ What I have yet to discover is precisely what resource

the Israelis are after with this latest adventure. Good land? Regional control? Political power? Probably all of the above, but I can't shake the feeling that I'm missing something else. Of course I realize that I'm hoping it's something more just to deal with my constant disappointment in world leaders.

Any insight?

[iamahaingttta]

32. Water!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Not Sure Your Being Atheist Has Anything To Do With The Points Raised.

I'm the furthest thing from being an atheist and agree with your points completely.

[MoseyWalker]

18. thanks for reading

and agreeing! You are someone with a belief system that, in your individual mind at least, obviously makes sense. It's when the systems get out of control, and control, that things start not making sense.

It's like being a conservative in the old days. It meant something relating to the word. Nothing seems to relate anymore, particularly the word of god, and I admire those who can believe and think and respond in a positive manner still.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. Just For The Record, I Belong To No Organized Religion. Mine Is Mine And

mine alone.

[MoseyWalker]

20. and that's the way it should be!

I've read many of your posts, and think highly of you, so please don't think I am in any way denigrating your personal beliefs.

peace

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. I Didn't Think That For A Second :o)

I just wanted to make clear that when I say I'm religious I mean in a personal way, and not as a christian, hebrew etc... I'm more just very spiritual I guess. But then having been ten times over suicidal, living in a car through two winters, and spending some good ole time behind bars gives a different outlook on things. I just could never buy into the whole organized aspect of religion, with the repetition and all. I can't help thinking that God (for sake of argument if he exists) would be sick to DEATH of some of those hymns and prayers by now LOL

But no matter how deeply spiritual I am and in my own way, I still completely respect every one else's religious views including those that choose to have no religion at all. In the end, like you, all I give a fuck about is that we treat each other decently and with respect, and strive to make lives better for all while always having open hands and outstretched arms.

[longship]

22. Furthermore, to kill for your religious beliefs is hugely wrong.

FUCK all the the theocratic states, like Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran, and all the rest. And FUCK Bush for what he's trying to do to this country. Only the end of theocracy will end the hate, the killing, the ideological intolerance. Government based on theology is the problem. It has to end or it will be the end of all of us.

We deparately need a 21st century enlightenment.

[MoseyWalker]

23. amen to every word you wrote

I just can't remember what amen means!

I agree with your response completely. Thanks.

[grannylib]

24. Not hard at all, even for some Christians!

:-) I agree, it's wrong. Period.
For me, faith is personal but also a call to action. NOT proselytization...actions of love, justice, acceptance, tolerance, etc. (Although I must say I have no more tolerance for intolerant rePiglicans!) I've had it with organized religion...but I keep the faith in my fashion, as Sting would say.
Doesn't mean I have to judge others for their beliefs.

[threadkillaz]

28. Religion Kills - Science Saves

nt

[snot]

29. I wonder why killing shouldn't always be treated as a crime --

justifiable only if a reasonable person under the same circumstances would have believed that the person killed had both the full intention and ability to kill someone else in the immediate future, and that killing that person was the only reasonably available option sufficient to prevent that person from actully carrying out that intention.

[NMMNG]

31. It is wrong

I just don't get the mentality where it's ok to kill people who don't pose an imminent danger to you or anybody else. Freeper types amaze me the way they prattle on about how life is sacred when they're railing against abortion and stem-cell research yet once a person is born they'll come up with a million excuses as to why it's ok to kill them in some of the most heinous ways possible. They're gay, they smoked a joint, they stole a loaf of bread, they live in the wrong nation, they worship the wrong deity, they worship no deity, they belong to the wrong political party, and so on and so on. Then there are those operating on alleged mandates from gods or holy books.... It's heartbreaking and frightening both.

[krkaufman]

34. I'm honestly curious ....

A hypothetical....

Assumptions:
Side A believes Side B should be eradicated from the face of the Earth.
Side B is OK w/ coexistence with Side A.

Scenario:
Side A is killing people on Side B.

This is wrong.

Side A kills more Side B people.

This is wrong.

Side A kills more Side B-ites.

This is wrong.

What is Side B to do?

[Ghost in the Machine]

37. I'm an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac...

I stay up all night wondering if there really is a Dog.....

[theanarch]

38. i've posted this elsewhere, but it can always be...

...posted again: "There is just enough religion in the world to make us hate, but not enough to make us love." Jonathan Swift