How clueless must one be to not know to use the term "tar baby" sparingly?

[CatWoman]

Mass. Gov. Romney Apologizes for Remark

The Associated Press
Monday, July 31, 2006; 8:37 AM

BOSTON -- Gov. Mitt Romney has apologized for referring to the troubled Big Dig construction project as a "tar baby" during a fundraiser with Iowa Republicans, saying he didn't know anyone would be offended by the term some consider a racial epithet.

In a speech Saturday, Romney, a Republican considering a run for president in 2008, acknowledged he took a big political risk in taking control of the project after a fatal tunnel ceiling collapse, but said inaction would have been even worse.

"The best thing politically would be to stay as far away from that tar baby as I can," he told a crowd of about 100 supporters in Ames, Iowa.

Black leaders were outraged at his use of the term, which dates to the 19th century Uncle Remus stories, referring to a doll made of tar that traps Br'er Rabbit. It has come to be known as a way of describing a sticky mess, and has been used as a derogatory term for a black person.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/31/AR2006073100256.html

[LisaM]

1. Especially when Tony Snow just did it!

Not more than a few months ago. Obviously, this is the way they all speak within their circle.

[electron_blue]

2. It's an age thing. It'll take some folks a long time to 'get it'

[Mabus]

12. I think it's more of a regional thing

That is, it is seen as a racial epithet more in the southern states than elsewhere. For this reason I see the GOP's recent usage and defense of the term as interjecting another GOP code word/phrase. Just like they did with "no child left behind" which is a reference to the rapture.

[partylessinOhio]

3. Why do so many worship Mitt? I could never see it. He has to be as

dumb as a rock.

Years ago that was a more commonly used phrase. Today, it is not. So why did Mr. Mitt let it flow right off his tongue in reference to a construction project???

[Lance_Boyle]

4. This is the first I ever heard of Rmoney using it -

that seems fairly sparing. I should also say that I will give both Rmoney and Snowjob the benefit of the doubt (much as I hate to do that for Republicans) for using the term. Judging from the context of both men's remarks it appears to me that they were referring to a quagmire or sticky situation, not espousing racial hatred.

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. Maybe they're just trying to 'take it back'

you know, like the guy in Clerks II trying to take back 'porch monkey'.

Ignorant fucks.

[sui generis]

5. why, some of their best friends are black!

good golly mizz molly.

as a white boy who can play super shuffle double blind nello spades with random powercuts and one eyeball tied behind my back and win without cheating too much, I learned at the card table as a young impressionable fella what a tar baby was, from the very people who would know best.

It always amazes me how the crustless wonderbread population claims to not be bothered by it because it doesn't offend them. Heh. Play some cards with some real people down in the hood - you learn lots of stuff you oughtta know, Biff or Buffy or Mitt, or whatever your name is.

:P

wonderbread :rofl:

[BuhByeChimp]

6. I never knew it was a racist comment.

But I've never used it in any conversation that I can remember. Doesn't it mean something about being a sticky situation?

[CatWoman]

8. ....

Black leaders were outraged at his use of the term, which dates to the 19th century Uncle Remus stories, referring to a doll made of tar that traps Br'er Rabbit. It has come to be known as a way of describing a sticky mess, and has been used as a derogatory term for a black person.

[nealmhughes]

20. Actually, the entire Joel Chandler Harris Uncle Remus stories have

been undergoing a rehabilitation as an authentic representative of Black folk culture after being supressed in the 60s from serious consideration. It was the use of Harris's dialect rendition that angered many, not the stories, per se. Historical linguists and folklorists have tried to rehab his work, seeing it as an authentic representation of the vernacular speech of that region and time. However, on the other hand, the famous Ex-Slave Narratives were purposefully edited to represent what the editors and publishers under the aegis of the WPA thought would be "accurate". For example, the words "gwinna" is almost always used for the construction of "going to". "Mammy and Pappy" are used instead of any other uses for mother and father. It makes the reading of them extremely difficult when one expects standard English sentences until one has read dozens and dozens of them and then gets the gist of the spelling. Many of these narratives were written in Standard Black Vernacular Southern English and then "dumbed down" for effect. Now that was racist!

The story of The Tar Baby is not racist at all, it is its use as a replacement for a racist tag that is. In fact, Uncle Remus is a representation of the wisdom of age and timeless, like Aesop. In most of them, the underdog (slave) is presented as being smarter than the supposedly stronger (master).

Would I use Tar Baby in conversation? No, unless, I was talking about folklore and Black culture.

[TahitiNut]

23. I was 'sprouted' on Uncle Remus, and NEVER made a connection

... with racism of any kind. As a kid, I aspired to having such a story-teller I could know. The one at the library wasn't anywhere as fun. I've always connected "tar baby" 100% to a "sticky problem" and have never associated it with an epithet.

It seems both tragic and a condemnation of the illiterate ignoramuses who abused the term, not having the slightest comprehension of what it meant.

:shrug:

[Xithras]

10. Neither did I

And I have used it before. I always used it the way it was described in the Remus' stories...a situation where you simply become more entrenched and entangled as you try to fight your way out of it. Something that is best avoided to prevent entanglement. I've never heard it used as a racial epithet, and didn't know it could be. I guess you learn something new every day!

Of course, it could also have to do with the fact that I live in an area that has only recently began suffering from racial-type problems, and which has never had any kind of widespread racial discrimination against blacks (Mexicans are a different story, and are really a phenomena of the past few decades).

[MuseRider]

7. We used to use that term

and it did mean what Uncle Remus meant. Once I heard it said as a racial slur I stopped and I rarely hear it anymore, in fact never until now.

What ever happened to being sensitive to other people? I guess it was just a fad by a small focus group?

[madinmaryland]

9. I can't believe people think it is acceptable to use that phrase.

:wtf:

[Igel]

31. You only think that because you don't have

their experiences and knowledge, and assume yours are privileged.

You have more information than Romney did: You know what you know, and what he said. He just knew what he knew. He may even have known that some people find terms offensive. Things slip out (and, in this case, a non-racist meaning is hardly indicative of underlying racism). For example, yesterday I was telling my toddler not to play with Happy's (his gerbil's) ball, one of those things that small animals can roll around on the floor in. "Joshua, don't play with Happy's ball--we don't let Happy play with your balls." Inanity happens.

When presented with a mismatch between what the listener assumes a word means and what the context says a speaker must mean, the listener gets to figure out what the speaker means. The listener can assume that s/he knows everything already, or check a dictionary. Esp. if the utterance is meaningless with the assumed meaning. In Romney's utterance, assuming 'tar baby' has any reference to a person, of any race, is a non-starter. No need to be familiar with African-American folklore to recognize that.

I once had to buy a replacement fluorescent light for some odd lamp. The instructions used the word "ballast" and it made no sense. It wasn't in the context of a ship. I tried assuming that the instructions were in Beijing English or the writer was an idiot, but that got me nowhere. I checked the dictionary: the ballast is what collects the charge and actually turns the fluorescent light on.

I chucked my assumptions, realized maybe not everybody was limited to my knowledge base, and learned something. The writer wasn't an idiot, he was using standard English, and my experience was restricted.

[Hardrada]

11. Oh no! The TAR BABY discussion is back!!

I personally think it is a slur but I am just from the Upper Midwest.

[survivor999]

13. I suppose Mormons are very sheltered

when they grow up... Do we want a Prez like that?

[warrens]

14. Whether it was racist or not

The Repukes would hang it on a Dem, so don't even feel bad for hanging it on this creep. It's sort of like Bush, is he evil or incompetent, or both? Every answer is a good one for us.

[CBGLuthier]

15. spook, coon, tarbaby

All words that have proper non-derogatory meanings and all words we now have to not use because they are also used in a derogatory manner?

And I guess I can't use a spade in the garden either.

Sorry, but I can't support willful ignorance. He used the word correctly. Instead of apologising he should have told people to get an education.

[leftofthedial]

16. one would have to have a brain the size of a pickaninny

not to know that

OK. I'm a jerk.

[BuhByeChimp]

18. Now I did know Picaninny was considered racist.

but honestly had no idea Tar Baby was.

[soothsayer]

19. Me, either! It's such a good analogy. Seems like we're dissing

Uncle Remus by just assigning it a negative meaning. Us gays have taken back queer. Ok, ok. Politicos should stay away from it. But it's a damn good story!

[Igel]

32. Does 'pickaninny' have any

non-slave, non-demeaning meaning?

It's sort of at the nexus between sexism, people-as-property, and racism, isn't it?

[leftofthedial]

40. I always just thought it was a misguidedly affectionate term for

African-American babies and toddlers.

[trumad]

17. That's what Johnny used---The Tar baby defense.

[Swamp Rat]

21. It's j-j-just a f-f-ff-figure of s-s-speech if T-T-Tony s-s-says it.

:D

[onenote]

22. as clueless as Molly Ivins?

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/1/2001/650

As clueless as several DUers?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2266664#2266741 (post 4)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2264053 (post 16)


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2609742 (post 6)


Manufactured outrage. Sigh.

[loves_dulcinea]

24. here in charleston, sc

we don't say things like tar baby.
that's just rude.
intent doesn't matter because mistakes happen fast.

[karlrschneider]

29. So do we hate Molly now? It's gettin' damn hard to keep with

what's permitted. The Freeps got no monopoly on anal retentive...

oh drat now I've insulted some assholes. I can't win.
:eyes:

[liberalitch]

26. ONE acceptable use.....

"Take off your shoes, you're about to track in tar baby."

[brer cat]

27. Tar baby is sticky, not racist

I grew up in the deep south. I have never heard the term tar baby used as a racial slur...only as a sticky situation. The Uncle Remus stories were told to me, or read to me, as warm fuzzy stories of a wise old man with whimsical animal friends who had life lessons to teach us. While I saw water fountains and bathrooms marked "colored only" or "white only" I was told by my parents that black folks needed to be supported as they worked to become equal citizens. All southerners aren't racists.

[Flying Dream Blues]

38. Every thing brer cat said. I don't consider myself ignorant

in matters of race, and I'm familiar w/ Uncle Remus and the sensitivity about how African Americans were portrayed, but I still never heard anyone call someone a tar baby or use it in a racial context.

I've only heard it used to describe a sticky situation, and never even saw that knowing glance of racist complicity (that hateful look that white people give other white people to get validation for some ignorant racist remark), so I don't believe those people who said it did so with racist intent.

I haven't used the word much myself, but now that I know it's offensive to some, I surely will not use it.

I really lean toward giving the guy the benefit of the doubt on this one, which is not to say he shouldn't be apologetic for offending people. It's the kind of thing where you want to educate those who want to do right, not cause more hard feelings either way.

Don't take this the wrong way, but this kind of reminds me of the whole "renege" thing that someone got in trouble for. It wasn't racist, it was a real word with no racial connotations that I'm aware of, not but the guy got burned anyway.

[karlrschneider]

28. Urk

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2425175&mesg_id=2425356

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Pretty clueless.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/tar_baby.html

[CatWoman]

34. thank you for that link, Bornagin

:hi:

[Igel]

36. It can certainly have a racist meaning.

But that's not to say that meaning the word's only meaning, or is or ought to be the privileged meaning.

Esp. if it's archaic as a GTA (general term of abuse). BTW, I also think it's not necessarily archaic, but that's another quibble.

The "coon" example from above seems relevant. Where I grew up, 'coon' was only a derogatory term for blacks. An old-fashioned one, actually. But years later I had friends from another part of the country for whom 'coon' was only applicable to raccoons; they'd never heard a live person use it derogatorily.

I was savvy enough to realize they were talking about real raccoons. I could have simply assumed they must have meant something that was offensive and made their conversation meaningless, or exceedingly strange. I eventually asked them, and they said they'd heard 'coon' used in movies, but never in person. Problem ended.

Different social or geographical dialect, different referent. Such is language.

[Rex]

33. Dam, Mitt must love the way his foot or shoe tastes.

Fucking loser...hey asshole, how bout we 'tar and feather' your ass and see if you ever use that term again?

[ismnotwasm]

35. Remember that SNL word association interview

With Richard Pryor? (Tarbaby was used twice)
It was a nation wide common derogatory word for blacks. I remember it. My DAD remembers it. My husband remembers it. My grandmother used it. All this defending of it is bullshit.


Racist Word Association Interview

Interviewer.....Chevy Chase
Mr. Wilson.....Richard Pryor


Interviewer: Alright, Mr. Wilson, you've done just fine on the Rorshact.. your papers are in good order.. your file's fine.. no difficulties with your motor skills.. And I think you're probably ready for this job. We've got one more psychological test we always do here. It's just a Word Association. I'll throw you out a few words - anything that comes to your mind, just throw back at me, okay? It's kind of an arbitrary thing. Like, if I say "dog", you'd say..?

Mr. Wilson: "Tree".

Interviewer: "Tree". < nods head, prepares the test papers > "Dog".

Mr. Wilson: "Tree".

Interviewer: "Fast".

Mr. Wilson: "Slow".

Interviewer: "Rain".

Mr. Wilson: "Snow".

Interviewer: "White".

Mr. Wilson: "Black".

Interviewer: "Bean".

Mr. Wilson: "Pod".

Interviewer: < casually > "Negro".

Mr. Wilson: "Whitey".

Interviewer: "Tarbaby".

Mr. Wilson: < silent, sure he didn't hear what he thinks he heard > What'd you say?

Interviewer: < repeating > "Tarbaby".

Mr. Wilson: "Ofay".

Interviewer: "Colored".

Mr. Wilson: "Redneck".

Interviewer: "Junglebunny".

Mr. Wilson: < starting to get angry > "Peckerwood!"

Interviewer: "Burrhead".

Mr. Wilson: < defensive > "Cracker!"

Interviewer: < aggressive > "Spearchucker".

Mr. Wilson: "White trash!"

Interviewer: "Jungle Bunny!"

Mr. Wilson: < upset > "Honky!"

Interviewer: "Spade!

Mr. Wilson: < really upset > "Honky Honky!"

Interviewer: < relentless > "Nigger!"

Mr. Wilson: < immediate > "Dead honky!" < face starts to flinch >

Interviewer: < quickly wraps the interview up > Okay, Mr. Wilson, I think you're qualified for this job. How about a starting salary of $5,000?

Mr. Wilson: Your momma!

Interviewer: < fumbling > Uh.. $7,500 a year?

Mr. Wilson: Your grandmomma!

Interviewer: < desperate > $15,000, Mr. Wilson. You'll be the highest paid janitor in America. Just, don't.. don't hurt me, please..

Mr. Wilson: Okay.

Interviewer: < relieved > Okay.

Mr. Wilson: You want me to start now?

Interviewer: Oh, no, no.. that's alright. I'll clean all this up. Take a couple of weeks off,
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml

[magellan]

37. Not clueless at all

And I refuse to validate the bigots who hijacked this term, and the wonderful African American folk tale it comes from, by castigating those who use it in its original sense...even if they are Bush**-lickin' jerks like Snow.

[hiphopnation]

39. tre clueless n/t