Do "the people of Israel" bear of guilt of their elected leaders crimes?

[DistressedAmerican]

I keep seeing people try and tell me how "Israelis" or the "Israeli people" are not behind this action and it is just the government to blame (specific government individuals only of course).

Well, didn't they elect those people? Do they not still pay taxes? Do they not still report in overwhelming numbers for duty when conscripted?

I feel that "Americans" bear as much blame as anyone for Iraq. We (collectively) let it happen. 85% supported it the day the bombing started. I do not give the citizens of a democracy a pass for the actions of their leaders. Now everyone will rush to tell me how they are not responsible. Before you do, I'll just ask how many of you are sitting in jail for refusing to pay into the war machine?

Thoughts?

[QuestionAll...]

1. oiy, look what bush is doing -

I don't think it's your fault....

[DistressedAmerican]

2. My tax money supports it.

I am too much a coward to refuse to pay and go to jail. Therefore I get no pass even though I spend nearly every day working against this war. I still bear blame if I help buy the bombs.

[QuestionAll...]

4. I dunno, DA

the system is set up so you don't have a say so stop feeling guilty.

[DistressedAmerican]

9. Sure I do. It is called civil disobedience.

Thoreau made a choice not to pay into the "system" and he was willing to go to jail for that choice. If I were more corageous (actually if my wife wouldn't kick my ass to be more accurate) I'd sit in jail and refuse to pay just like American hero Henry David Thoreau. He never surrendered. Not a cent.

Imagine if one million people in this country had the couage to do the same.

[QuestionAll...]

13. civil disobedience on a huge scale is

only a matter of time away, imo.
thinking more pitchforks and torches tho.

most likely will be impromptu by a fresh new hell of a horrific event bush will bestow on us all.
gather signatures and promises to do what you are considering just wouldn't work right now. Need a bonfire up people's asses to get them to do something like that and I'm sure * has something in mind...

[DistressedAmerican]

17. I do not see it., I see a coming terror attack and the enhanced

overreaction from our citizens AGAIN. you think they turned this country fascist after 9/11. Just let another one happen and America will start turning their own kids in. We are largely frightened sheep. Stupid, frightened sheep.

I see less and less indication of opposition to the war in the streets. The polls say it is more and more unpopular. But, the major protests have all but stopped. Shouldn't they be growing with the growing opposition? Are those that supported it and now turned ever going to join up with those of us that opposed it from day one to fix what they helped fuck up? Don't know. May take years and thousands more dead at this rate.

[itzamirakul]

27. If America is ever attacked again, in any way, shape, form or

fashion, I will be just like Don Corleone when he discussed bringing Michael home from Italy. I will blame everyone in this room if any attack takes place again.

IMO, if anything even remotely resembling an attack takes place again, I don't care if they catch an Arab with the burning match in his hand, there is no way I will not believe that the Lobby and members of the American government are directly involved.

It is the use of unnamed, unnamable, unspeakable, unthinkable fear, that we are kept under control. People fear dying and above all they fear dying in some painful way....so they don't go out to protest anymore because the police have government license to beat the shit out of them and lock them up without food and water for days without legal representation. People fear losing whatever it is they have worked so hard acquire. People fear speaking out for fear of being held up to ridicule. People fear taking "the wrong side" because they fear not "knowing enough" to make good judgments. People fear that the tactic of torture will be brought to bear on them by the very government they thought they voted for and elected to office.

You might be interested in reading this paper by Mearsheimer/Walt:

www.londonreviewofbooks.com/v28/n06/mear01_.html

[DistressedAmerican]

28. Very Intereting Read. Thanks.

[deaniac21]

30. >People fear speaking out for fear of being held up to ridicule.

I can understand how you would feel that way.

[SaveElmer]

3. Uh no...

Olmert replaced Ariel Sharon after he had his stroke I believe...and Sharon had been surprisingly working on peace with the Palestinians

As a Democracy they have an obligation to act if the Government does something they disapprove of...mainly through the ballot..they haven't had that opportunity yet...

They have to be given time to absorb what is happening and then act...

[DistressedAmerican]

6. Seems to me like you missed a recent election.

Even if you were not overlooking that fact, the elected sharon. They voted overwhelmingly for him after he marched to the temple mount and started the second infafada. They elected a hard liner party. They supported isolating Palestine rather than further attempts at negotiation when they did that.

Taxes? Still paying. Concription? Still showing up to fire the weapons. Olmert is not pulling all those triggers himself is he?

[SaveElmer]

8. Has the public had a chance to vote for Olmert?

Perhaps I did miss one...

[DistressedAmerican]

10. Yes. In March

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/elections2006.jhtml?contrassID=1&subContrassID=30

Final results: Kadima on 29 seats, Labor on 19, Shas and Likud on 12

Labor loses one Knesset seat to Ra'am-Ta'al, leaving it with 19 seats, after mistakes found in documentation of vote tallies in Arab ballots.

* Kadima MKs hail Ehud Olmert as the next PM

* Q&A - Our experts answer your election questions


Netanyahu: Likud took a blow, but I'm staying on

Says will 'continue along the path we have only just begun in order to ensure our rehabilitation.'

Peretz: We will march toward peace and social justice

Says will establish new society; Meretz disappointed with 5 seats.

Pensioners say will achieve goals within a year

Party leader says will join any coalition that cares for pensioners


Taxes and conscription?

[SaveElmer]

12. Thanks...

March was a very bad month for me...I missed alot of important news then!

I still say it is more important how they react now...

In my view the government in Israel has been criminally negligent...if the Israeli people hold them accountable they have done their job...

[DistressedAmerican]

15. As with all news. You had to look to know in the US.

Not like anything that does not directly involve Americans gets reported. :hi:

[movonne]

22. I have always thought there was something about the timing of

Sharon's stroke as a tin foil hat for me..I see evil everywhere bush is concerned..I don't think Sharon would have gone along with this...and I'm more inclined to think that we are the one's pushing Israel...

[Taoschick]

5. So that means

The people of Afghanistan collectively were responsible for the attacks on America because they tolerated the taliban and harbored al Qaeda?

[DistressedAmerican]

7. No they were not living in a democracy. They did not elect the Taliban

In fact, many were actively at war with them. Can you say the same for Israeli citizens?

[Taoschick]

19. So...

Only people living in a democracy are responsible for overthrowing an irresponsible and tyranical government?

[DistressedAmerican]

20. THEY WERE AT WAR WITH THEIR TYRANTS.

Are Israelis?

What are you missing? Not a democracy and fighting with their lives to get their freedom from the Taliban.

As to the Afghanis that supported them. Yes. Responsible.

How about you just answer the questions in the OP and stop wasting my time with this distraction.

[Scurrilous]

11. Days of darkness

<snip>

"In war as in war: Israel is sinking into a strident, nationalistic atmosphere and darkness is beginning to cover everything. The brakes we still had are eroding, the insensitivity and blindness that characterized Israeli society in recent years is intensifying. The home front is cut in half: the north suffers and the center is serene. But both have been taken over by tones of jingoism, ruthlessness and vengeance, and the voices of extremism that previously characterized the camp's margins are now expressing its heart. The left has once again lost its way, wrapped in silence or "admitting mistakes." Israel is exposing a unified, nationalistic face.

The devastation we are sowing in Lebanon doesn't touch anyone here and most of it is not even shown to Israelis. Those who want to know what Tyre looks like now have to turn to foreign channels - the BBC reporter brings chilling images from there, the likes of which won't be seen here. How can one not be shocked by the suffering of the other, at our hands, even when our north suffers? The death we are sowing at the same time, right now in Gaza, with close to 120 dead since the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, 27 last Wednesday alone, touches us even less. The hospitals in Gaza are full of burned children, but who cares? The darkness of the war in the north covers them, too.

Since we've grown accustomed to thinking collective punishment a legitimate weapon, it is no wonder no debate has sparked here over the cruel punishment of Lebanon for Hezbollah's actions. If it was okay in Nablus, why not Beirut? The only criticism being heard about this war is over tactics. Everyone is a general now and they are mostly pushing the IDF to deepen its activities. Commentators, ex-generals and politicians compete at raising the stakes with extreme proposals.

Haim Ramon "doesn't understand" why there is still electricity in Baalbek; Eli Yishai proposes turning south Lebanon into a "sandbox"; Yoav Limor, a Channel 1 military correspondent, proposes an exhibition of Hezbollah corpses and the next day to conduct a parade of prisoners in their underwear, "to strengthen the home front's morale."

It's not difficult to guess what we would think about an Arab TV station whose commentators would say something like that, but another few casualties or failures by the IDF, and Limor's proposal will be implemented. Is there any better sign of how we have lost our senses and our humanity?"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744061.html

[DistressedAmerican]

14. Good Article. Thanks.

Sounds so like the US after 9/11 vengence and retaliation are all that the people the author is desribing are thinking about. Not"self-defense".

[itzamirakul]

29. Sounds like they have greater freedom of the press than we have

here in America. That's why it bothers me that people think that America is forcing Israel to do her will. I think it is the Israeli Lobby that is forcing America to do its will.

If you have not already read it, this is Mearsheimer/Walt's paper on the influence of the Israeli hardliners and their American collaborators on U.S. foreign and domestic policy. It is really a vital read for perspective on this crisis.

www.londonreviewofbooks.com/v28/n06/mear01_.html

[madeline_con]

16. Only those who support them. n/t

[DistressedAmerican]

18. Taxes and conscription?

Are they fighting in the IDF? Yep. Are they paying taxes? Yep.

Why does everyone want to ignore those two facts. You can not wage a war of your army refuses to fight. They army isn't refusing to fight. They are pulling the trigger.

You can not wage war of your citizens refuse to pay for it. They are well funded.

[madeline_con]

21. No, their "elected leaders' crimes".

There are groups who try to help military members who refuse to do the dirty work of the Israeli government.

I've heard a good number of citizens of draftable age are elsewhere, preventing taking part in their government's war crimes.

[pelsar]

25. some names?

"draft dodgers" though not common in israel is not a problem.....for those that dont want to serve all they need is a "back problem" a doctors note etc to get out, a psych problem...they hardly need a "organization" to help them

its pretty simple.

[NJCher]

23. NPR Reports on this Regularly

I've heard numerous reports of polls of the Israeli people and they are staunchly behind this war. They support it, believe in it, and a huge number of them think the attacks should be even more intense.




Cher

edited to add: here's a link to coverage of the polls I refer to:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5592589

[pelsar]

24. yes....

the israeli electorate elected the present govt....there are in fact few protests against the current govt, in a country where protests are common. Furthermore the polls show over 80% favor the current actions...but most telling are the reserve units...it is they that have a lot of influence on the govt since they are both older, experienced citizens as well as soliders:

current news shows the called up reserve units have over 100% showing up...that means there are also those volunteering for service.

israelis in general take the responsability for their govts actions (which is why they dont always last very long....)

those evacuated or staying in bomb shelters are not complaining, quite the opposite, they support the actions.
_______
which means for one looking at israeli society, an educated society with a history or protesting its govt actions, one would have to wonder either the society as a whole is a war mongering society that wants to kill "arabs' everywhere, or it sees the war through a very different perspective.

[DistressedAmerican]

26. It does seem that large numbers of the people DO support the attacks.

Hardf to give the "people" a pass when they seem to overwhewlmingly aprove.

[itzamirakul]

31. It is hard to believe that so many of the "people" are unable to

connect the dots for themselves. For some of them they have had to wait nearly six years to even hear a 2 hour discussion on the 911 opposing side. The side opposed to the official version and the offical investigation, where right in front of their faces, they watched their leaders twitch in their chairs and tell baldfaced lies.

It's hard to believe that in the U.S. we have "Free education and dumb Americans." Unable to look at a situation from both sides....well, this is the result of "The Selling of America" and "The Dumbing of America."