Bush New Bill-Permits Gov To Throw US Citizens In Jail Forever W/O Trial

[kpete]

Bush proposing new legislation that would permit him to throw any American in jail, forever, without a trail or attorney

THIS is too fucking much!

U.S. citizens suspected of terror ties might be detained indefinitely and barred from access to civilian courts under legislation proposed by the Bush administration, say legal experts reviewing an early version of the bill.

A 32-page draft measure is intended to authorize the
Pentagon's tribunal system, established shortly after the 2001 terrorist attacks to detain and prosecute detainees captured in the war on terror. The tribunal system was thrown out last month by the Supreme Court.

Administration officials, who declined to comment on the draft, said the proposal was still under discussion and no final decisions had been made.

Senior officials are expected to discuss a final proposal before the
Senate Armed Services Committee next Wednesday.

more at:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060728/ap_on_go_pr_wh/detainee_rights;_ylt=AqYkldIHXLiIeuVur6hg9CsD5gcF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

[Beelzebud]

1. Soon we'll have a Final Solution for terror.

We have got to get these motherfuckers out of government...

[originalpckelly]

7. See reply #4

I don't think it would be too small however.

[LuckyTheDog]

56. Yep

How long till this is used against political opponents of the administration?

[dkblogger]

61. Yup, by locking up terrorist "QUAKERS" on CIA lists !

Ya think this is bad... tune in to c-span at 2:15 est and
watch the American Scholars Symposium. 

[EVDebs]

92. Quakers put this on their weblink...and then got spied on by Mil Intell

If the U.S. is ultimately leaving Iraq, why is the military building 'permanent' bases?
http://www.fcnl.org/iraq/bases.htm

It matches up with the Oil Fields map that Judicial Watch put on its website

Iraq Oil Map
http://www.judicialwatch.org/IraqOilMap.pdf

So now you know how the Quakers got into the mess they're in. They dared to tell the truth and put the evidence on a website.

[NJCher]

101. that's called "transparency in government"

When you transpose the Iraq Oil Map over the bases map.




Cher

[msongs]

2. the US Democratic Party Inc?????? nt

[EstimatedProphet]

22. ?

[hang a left]

33. And judge that would dare declare the law unconstitutional?

[MannyGoldstein]

80. The Party of Brave Sir Robin Will Bravely Flee

As usual, most of the Democrats will take the Brave Sir Robin approach to this:

Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!

He is packing it in,
And packing it up,
And sneaking away,
And buggering off,
And chickening out,
And pissing off home,
Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge.

Then maybe they'll go on an Estonian vodka-guzzlin' junket to get calmed down after their brush with death.

Doin' the sheeples business and all.

[NC_Nurse]

3. These people are SO F*%king scary!

Geez! Have they NO shame?

[struggle4progress]

87. It's an old item on the Republican "wish list," dating from Nixon's era ..

.. or earlier.

".. When Attorney General John Mitchell tried to introduce the concept of preventive detention into American jurisprudence, civil libertarians were all over him. In the Sixties, we didn’t let authority figures get away with much, not even when they thought they were doing us a favor ... I can’t help feeling nostalgia for that hypersensitive Sixties’ take-no-guff-from-anybody mentality ..."
Power to the Students
Nostalgia for an era of protests — even petty ones
http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0104/0104voices.html

[NEOBuckeye]

104. Not scary. They just need to be stood up to and stopped.

By any means necessary, up to and including the guillotine.

[originalpckelly]

4. I say we establish a small task force on DU...

to draft a new declaration of independence from this tyranny. This is getting ridiculous, how much longer do we need to wait people? When is it too much?

[Posteritatis]

5. Only if they *do* something with the declaration, not just write it. (n/t)

[originalpckelly]

6. We convene a new Congress and draft the new declaration...

then send it to states that are liberal and ask for their legislatures to adopt it.

[Posteritatis]

8. See, that's a Plan. That I can get behind.

I'm not going off on you in particular and I apologize if I came off that way. I just see way too many grand gestures designed to be grand destures and nothing more. If folks are willing to try and turn something into an actual deed, like you describe, then I'm either on board (if I like the idea and am in a position to do so) or nodding in approval (if I don't like the idea - "at least they're doing something!" - or can't help out).

This one, I immediately like. If it comes down to it, you have my permission to raise seventeen different kinds of hell in its name.

[shadowknows69]

12. We would essentially have to put it out there

that we no longer recognize the authority of our government. Things could get very bad for those involved. Hang together or hang separately and all that good stuff.

[originalpckelly]

13. Give me liberty or give me death.

It is scary, but we must be not afraid. The truth of what may be is far more frightening than any fate that may fall upon us now.

If not now, when?
If not us, who?

[PurpleChez]

74. Speaking as a third party, I don't think you were out of line at all,

and I heartily endorse the foregoing proposals

[atreides1]

9. Okay so how do we begin?

[originalpckelly]

11. The steps (a preliminary concept)

1. Create a list of formal grievances against the policies of this administration and why these grievances merit declaring a new independence.

2. Explain why this (the indefinite jailing, or even the mention of it) is so profoundly offensive, and explain the unique inability to reform the system because of government corruption and vote tampering.

3. Form an online petition (could be a DU thread to start off) and when the declaration reaches a certain large number of supporters, send it to the various democratically controlled state legislatures for approval. In addition send it to the DNC, and see if they support it. (I don't expect them to, they are in some ways just as corrupt with power.)

[Posteritatis]

17. One crit

The petition should be physical, not online, unless it's very carefully controlled. The problem with the electronic form is that, if it's a petition on some domestic issue in Britain, I, a US/Canadian dual-citizen, would be able to sign it - which is both irresponsible on my part, and damages the legitimacy of the petition on theirs.

Besides, which sounds better?

"Here's our petition!" *click*

or

"Here's our petition!" *giant, meaty thud on desk*

;)

[originalpckelly]

20. People could download a form...

and then print it out and send it to an address where it would be collected.

[karlrschneider]

28. I wonder how much a full page ad in USA Today would cost?

I'd be willing to kick in a c-note. If it's financially doable, I think it should be modelled
after the original Declaration of Indpendence. Just tossing out some random thoughts, but you guys
are right, something has got to be done!

[oneold1-4u]

79. Day Before Yesterday

Was not nearly early enough but first there must be at least one leader, or better, a few thousand who are willing to be moderates in the beginning and resolute in the creation of one-up-man-ship against all that this administration has already done to remove the constitution, restructure the judiciary, and create a totalitarian government of a POLICE STATE!
By the way, all the other stuff going on around the world is their CLOSET!

[readmoreoften]

123. That's a great point. A full page ad would be great. /nt

[Posteritatis]

37. That might work, yeah

The key is physicality, something you can pick up and hold and trace to the person who signed it and see that they exist and all that. A petition isn't a petition unless there's some necks being put out for it, after all.

[man4allcats]

76. Well, I was hoping all this could be avoided by possible

victory in November, but perhaps things are spinning out of control too quickly now. I regret to have to say that I agree. It would seem the time to begin has come. I like Posteritatis' suggestion of a hard copy to drop with a "thud on the desk." Your own suggestion of a downloadable form that could be printed out, signed and mailed is also good. I have in fact seen such printable petitions online.

Of course we are opening Pandora's box, but then again there would seem to be no viable options left to us. I am currently reading William Shirer's THE RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH A History of Nazi Germany. For those who have not read it, I would recommend it. The parallels are frightening. In this brief, chilling excerpt, Shirer writes:

"... the Third Reich owed nothing to the fortunes of war or to foreign influence. It was inaugurated in peacetime, and peacefully, by the Germans themselves, out of both their weaknesses and their strengths. The Germans imposed the Nazi tyranny on themselves. Many of them, perhaps a majority, did not quite realize it at that noon hour of January 30, 1933, when President Hindenburg, acting in a perfectly constitutional manner, entrusted the chancellorship to Adolph Hitler.

But they were soon to learn."


Shirer, William L., THE RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH A History of Nazi Germany, (New York: SIMON AND SCHUSTER, 1960), P.187.

It has now been six years since America entrusted its own government to this modern day Hitler. Like the Germans of the 1930s, we too have gone from peace to war and are fast on our way to our own descent into tyranny. That descent must be stopped. I am personally ready to lend myself to this effort. May we carry with us courage, justice and the belief in humanity and the nobility of the human spirit upon which our nation was founded.

[shadowknows69]

10. I'm with you pckelly

if you can get this ball rolling then I humbly ask to be considered. Fuck you agent mike. It's on.

[The Doctor.]

78. The carpet will be pulled at their discretion...

We stand on an economy, an infrastructure, and an internet. Their plan is well-coordinated.

At the time the economy fails, the Pentagon will execute it's plans for information control over the internet.
I've heard rumors, but seen nothing substantive yet, that there are prison camps being constructed all over the country.

When the Gov't 'detains' a web site operator, a journalist, then ultimately a movement leader without Habeas Corpus, they will be well-prepared to deal with the fallout.

All they need is for 23% of the populace to be utterly obedient.

[Clark2008]

53. Not just "blue" states.

Do some research.

My state votes "red" in presidential and US Senate elections, but our state legislature is Democratic. You need to send it to ALL the states for consideration. Some allegedly red states would pass it, too.

[mom cat]

14. Make it in the form of a petition against this law.

[shadowknows69]

19. Too little momcat

What pckelly is proposing is something that we need to look at logically. It has to be done in the real world with the members all meeting to put themselves on the line and sign their names again just like our forefathers did. No online pettitions real, paper ones delivered by hand to our representatives. We would need whole states to delcare secession from the union and a statewide refusals to pay federal taxes. State national guards would need to be ordered by the governors to protect the borders from federal troops which I imagine would be along directly. If we truly believe that all legal recourse is exhausted then we need to study our history and starkly face what sacrifices will be necessary to save our nation. Also it would probably be a good thing to find some financial backers because this "new congress" would need some legal help and probably money to live if they had to go underground.

[mom cat]

46. Gotch'ya.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

24. count me in.

can we start a thread dedicated to that? I mean a totally serious one, no snarks, sharks, larks or marks.

[originalpckelly]

25. Plan on doing it...

I am writing a short explanation of it now.

[shadowknows69]

27. We might want to clear this with Skinner

even a thread speculating on this could put DU in the NSA's sights. As if it isn't already but...We need to start exchanging some phone numbers and addresses is what we need to do.

[karlrschneider]

30. Well, the thing is that if they would give us any serious hassle,

it'd already be too late to do much of -anything.-

And you can bet there are freepers who have watched us and likely 'reported' any number of posts.
Just that's how they operate.

[Posteritatis]

120. That couldn't hurt, yeah - if he gives it the thumbs-down

Folks could always take it offsite, at least for the bulk of the discussion until a specific plan's hatched.

I'm sure there's any number of options for other places to host the discussion, from some other major site to setting one up to a mailing list to something more discreet. Given the topic, I don't think it'd be a black mark on DU if the admins wanted it moved - but I imagine folks would be pleased if it wasn't, of course.

[prole100]

82. Drafting A New Declaration Of Independence Is A Terrorist Act

You can't win!

[Posteritatis]

117. Feh, like we aren't considered terrorists anyway

Comes a point where you don't have anything to lose. It's easy to dismiss that with cynical one-liners, but...

[p12psicop]

84. I'm on board

I live in Texas so I'd be hung as a traitor, but splitting the country seems like an apt tactic. The red states couldn't survive without the money from New York and California. What else can we do? We're supposed to have a Constitution that protects us from this kinda fascist crap, but they don't seem to recognize it. Bush called it "...a god damned piece of paper!" It's not just scary, it's outrageous.

[nealmhughes]

91. Indeed, to proclaim the Second Republic?

using the process that the people have historically used...

[reichstag911]

125. We don't need a new one, really;...

...the old one would be adequate if its principles are observed by our craven "leaders" (n.b. the list of grievances against King George):

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.—Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.—And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

—John Hancock, et al.

[Rex]

15. Sorry don't have time to look at this, to distracted watching the

I/P crowd act like 5 year olds. :sarcasm:

[originalpckelly]

18. This reminds me of...

Because I Got High


I was gonna clean my room until I got high
I gonna get up and find the broom but then I got high
my room is still messed up and I know why
- cause I got high

I was gonna go to class before I got high
I coulda cheated and I coulda passed but I got high
I am taking it next semester and I know why
- cause I got high

I was gonna go to work but then I got high
I just got a new promotion but I got high
now I'm selling dope and I know why
- cause I got high

I was gonna go to court before I got high
I was gonna pay my child support but then I got high
they took my whole paycheck and I know why
- cause I got high

I wasnt gonna run from the cops but I was high
I was gonna pull right over and stop but I was high
Now I am a paraplegic - because I got high

I was gonna pay my car note until I got high
I was gonna gamble on the boat but then I got high
now the tow truck is pulling away and I know why
- because I got high

I was gonna make love to you but then I got high
I was gonna eat yo pussy too but then I got high
now I'm jacking off and I know why
- cause I got high

I messed up my entire life because I got high
I lost my kids and wife because I got high
now I'm sleeping on the sidewalk and I know why
- cause I got high

I'm gonna stop singing this song because I'm high
I'm singing this whole thing wrong because I'm high
and if I dont sell one copy I know why
- cause I'm high

[Rex]

29. War high or get your high on.

Wait...what was the song about again? :evilgrin:

[earth mom]

16. OMG-I have chills running down my spine. This is crazy!

:scared:

[stepnw1f]

21. Unenforcable... good luck righties (nt)

[malaise]

23. That law will soon deal with Bush n/t

[shadowknows69]

26. What law?

Not to be cynical Malaise but in case you didn't notice George is making up the law as he goes along. I don't think if we had full house control and 100 dem senators they'd impeach him.

[malaise]

31. I agree with you completely

but Georgie's bogus laws will hopefully tie him up in prison for life.

[loves_dulcinea]

32. i really don't think it will go anywhere

but if it does, count me in. i'll be watching

[Disturbed]

34. I am confused now.

Didn't the SC declare this to be Unconstitutional already?

[halobeam]

116. Thats what I thought.

:shrug:

[midnight]

122. I hope so.

I can't take one more stupid republican bill.

[Blue_In_AK]

35. Thank you for posting this...

There was a long article in our morning paper on this topic. I was enraged and wanted to share, but you need a subscription to link to our paper's website. Just when you think the administration can't get any more out of control, they manage to outdo themselves.

[EstimatedProphet]

36. They're taking bigger steps each day

A few weeks ago we lost an important aspect of defense against illegal search and seizure, remember that? Here's an explanation if you don't. That made damn few ripples on this board, and wasn't carried in the media much either. Now they're going for a bigger chunk.

If anyone doubted before, it's here. We're officially fascist now.

[VP505]

81. Don't forget

about the USA Patriot Act, it's another piece of legislation that when coupled with all the others makes your statement all the more true: "If anyone doubted before, it's here. We're officially fascist now."

38. unbelievable

there is nothing these people wouldn't do.

[Initech]

39. God, when will this insanity end?

[Posteritatis]

42. When people compel it to? (n/t)

[eppur_se_muova]

40. "Held at the King's pleasure" ... reviving an old tradition. nt

[originalpckelly]

41. Revolution at the people's pleasure, reviving an old tradition.

From the period around 1776.

[Posteritatis]

121. I'm now picturing revolution at the king's pleasure

"Attention, subjects! You have become too apathetic, and I am having too much fun taking advantage of that. You may now overthrow my sorry ass. That is all."

[eShirl]

43. is this what that whole recent "martial law" business in congress was for?

It's getting harder for me to keep up with everything.

[originalpckelly]

44. I am trying to find that in the Congressional record...

Was it during the debate of the Minimum wage hike?

[Pokey Anderson]

48. the martial law thing --

the posts indicated it was a term used within Congress that would demand a vote outside their rules, meaning that congresscritters wouldn't get their normal 24 hours to look at legislation.

It was NOT anything about invoking martial law in the U.S.

(Not this week, anyway.)

[Emit]

47. There was a recent debate about martial law?

Boy, I missed that one. It is hard to keep up.

[LynnTheDem]

119. posse comitatus; bush wanted the power to declare martial law

with any "disaster" in the US (him defining "disisater" of course) and using US troops on US soil against Americans.

Lotsa links at;

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=bush+bill+martial+law+posse+comitatus&sp=1&fr2=sp-top&ei=UTF-8&fr=slv1-&ei=UTF-8&SpellState=n-2542662090_q-g4Q%2F1kX0N%2Fnk2yissc6hkQABAA%40%40

[Postman]

45. "suspected" of "terror ties" ???? Bush should be thrown in jail, now.

eom.

[Reckon]

49. What this law really means is

all they would have to do is MAKE CLAIMS of ties and NEVER have to prove it to anyone.

[EVDebs]

72. Kangaroo Court system. And Rove making all the unsubstantiated claims

against political enemies. Nice trick.

[xxqqqzme]

106. exactly - it allows hearsay

evidence; denies defendants access to evidence - this is a blue print for witch trials; mccarthy rises from the dead!

[Cant_wait_for_2008]

50. If this passes, I am buying a gun and not paying any taxes !!

Fascist Mutha-fukkers!!!!

[liberal N proud]

51. We have arrived at the police state

Should this become law and with the republican lead congress who will not stop the tyrant, it will.
This will be the defining moment in history where America became a fascist state.

[alfredo]

52. Let's see, a bush critic gets arrested. The junta claims that he

is a terrorist. When asked for evidence of him being a terrorist they reply that it is classified, divulging that info would endanger Americans.

Of course the defendant will not have access to the "evidence" against him and could be put to death never knowing why.

[ComerPerro]

70. Exactly, that's the beauty of it. No evidence is required

[alfredo]

77. Does the new prison at Gitmo have a death chamber?

I remember a few years ago Halliburton got the contract to build a death chamber.

[acmavm]

54. Well, its finally come. We've been 'discussing' this very real threat

for a long time and now here it is and the whole country, not just us, has to face it. The fools and idiots and fundies have to be made to understand that this is the way to becoming a police state. The frigging morans need to understand that this is how this country is turned into a corporate dictatorship run by the neocon killers.

I don't think we should underestimate the seriousness of this situation. The brains in this administration understand full well that if/when the lose power the are very much in risk of all their crimes being outed. They've done wat toooooooo much to allow that.

[JAbuchan08]

55. At least its completely consistent with the due process clause

of the constitution... not.

[JackDragna]

57. It's been bad enough with Bush's other actions..

..with the detainees, with extraordinary rendition, with his actions during the last two presidential elections, with the outing of Valerie Plame, the Iraq war, his poor handling of the aftermath of the 2005 hurricanes and many other problems which show his incompetence. It's also been terrible, with the slide over the last 20 years by the nation into a first-world nation with a third-world underbelly of poverty and political corruption fostered by the right. But this, this takes the cake.

The right is wholly corrupt. Our leaders in the Democratic Party should be howling. Hell, they should walk out of the government. Isn't going to happen, though, so long as our senior leaders can keep their power by playing along and continuing the illusion the right cares to work with them or compromise with their political opponents in any way.

[Orion The Hunter]

58. This kind of legislation is seriously ridiculous!! eom

[ShortnFiery]

68. No Morans! Terrorism has been around since the beginning of

Human existence. It was NOT invented on 9-11. All 9-11 gave us was an opportunity to scare the American Sheeple into granting The Executive Branch ABSOLUTE Power. This must be stopped! For the sake of our Democratic Republic. :(

[Redneck Socialist]

59. Well, since a terrorist is whatever georgie says it is...

It probably won't be too long before terrorism is defined as not having enough flag decals on your car.

"The bill defines enemy combatants as anyone "engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners who has committed an act that violates the law of war and this statute.""

That sounds pretty freakin' broad to me.

Unfortunately most folks will never hear about this and fewer would care even if they do. After all I've got nothing worry about because I'm not a terrorist right? :sarcasm:

[Minnesota_Lib]

62. Remember what Bush said: "Either you are with me or with the terrorists."

...if that is their criteria then this nation is in major trouble.

[Pathwalker]

60. Kicking for the truth.

:kick:

[ptolle]

63. but!

But yasee it's OK if you've done, or are doing nothing, wrong you have nothing to worry about.You'd hope and think that this would get plenty of coverage in the SCLM but it won't. First because it's too complex for the "journalists" themselves who will immediately decide it too complex for their audience, and besides it's WW3 or maybe 4 or maybe 3.5 I don't know.You'd think too that people in this country are going to wake soon, but I don't know whether it's from or into a national nightmare.
Thanks to the OP. I think we ought to kick this up. This just can't be allowed to fly beneath the radar.

[Pharaoh]

64. Damn we are fucked!

Are the gas chambers for liberals and gays next?

K&R

[ArbustoBuster]

65. What the...

From the linked article: "Scott L. Silliman, a retired Air Force Judge Advocate, said the broad definition of enemy combatants is alarming because a U.S. citizen loosely suspected of terror ties would lose access to a civilian court — and all the rights that come with it. Administration officials have said they want to establish a secret court to try enemy combatants that factor in realities of the battlefield and would protect classified information."

No more damned secret courts, you Republican lickspittles! Secrets are the death of democracies!

"The administration's proposal, as considered at one point during discussions, would toss out several legal rights common in civilian and military courts, including barring hearsay evidence, guaranteeing "speedy trials" and granting a defendant access to evidence. The proposal also would allow defendants to be barred from their own trial and likely allow the submission of coerced testimony."

"Several legal rights" like, oh, the entire goddamned Bill of Rights.

"Senior Republican lawmakers have said they were briefed on the general discussions and have some concerns but are awaiting a final proposal before commenting on specifics."

Senior Republican lawmakers need to be dragged into court and tried as traitors if they don't immediately cut this proposal off at its knees and impeach Bush and his cronies for even thinking of it.

[magellan]

134. You said it, Arbusto!!

"Senior Republican lawmakers need to be dragged into court and tried as traitors if they don't immediately cut this proposal off at its knees and impeach Bush and his cronies for even thinking of it."

Good God, YES. And further, what of the "opposition party"?? I implied this question the other day when this new legislation became public and will ask outright now:

The Dems, led by Pelosi, managed to be quite vociferous over Maliki appearing before Congress last week. WHAT'S THE GODDAMN EXCUSE FOR THEIR SILENCE NOW?

[nam78_two]

66. Phase 2 of the police state

I feel like an idiot for pooh-poohing some of my more conspiracy minded friends back in 2003 when they said this was going to be the ultimate objective of these disgustoids....a military police state.

[Pierre.Suave]

67. When will it stop

and when will the masses wake up and say enough is enough...

[Up2Late]

69. Amazing. These people must figure that they will never lose power.

No more words.:banghead: :grr:

[EVDebs]

71. "Due process" has been blacked out of the Constitution

And Alito and Roberts are there to make sure of it...

[marmar]

73. Like that T-shirt says....

"Is it fascism yet?"

:scared: :scared:

[oneold1-4u]

75. Fear Tactics

To create a fearful populace of the intelligent who understand enough of this administrations total tactical maneuvers for the past 6or7 years will have to be considered. They may be able to cause a problem by broadcasting to the world that there is a NAZI like government forming to do much the same to the world as hitler attempted to do.
It might be quite another thing if they get out to other free nations to form up revolt! B,C,and especially the criminal ROVE can not afford for that to happen!

[p12psicop]

83. intolerable

This is a pure absurdity. How far will/can they go?

If this passes, can we say Scooter Libby and Cheney are aiding terrorists by outing Valerie Plame, a CIA agent charged with protecting our national security? Seems pretty broad.

[Cleita]

85. I hope it backfires and he gets thrown into jail as a suspected

terrorist.

[tocqueville]

86. that's exactly why the French stormed the Bastille 7/14 1789

exact same law. Any ideas ?

[tocqueville]

88. CALM DOWN, YOU WILL NOT BE DETAINED ...

by: dm33ngb 07/30/06 12:36 pm
Msg: 547 of 549


As long as you or anyone close to you doesn’t make any statements, and doesn't do anything unsupportive of the government,
or that might be interpreted as endangering support for government programs, as long as
you never associate with someone critical of government,
or belong to the same organization as someone who is unsupportive of government,
as long as you aren’t suspected of possibly associating with someone suspected of being a potential threat to security, or to the implementation of laws deemed important to maintain security,
as long as you don’t have anyone who dislikes you,
or anyone who might benefit by accusing you,
as long as no mentally disturbed person falsely accuses you,
as long as the government doesn’t mix up its records,
or make a misidentified arrest,
as long as no politicians will misuse their unchecked authority to benefit themselves and
their cronies at your expense,
as long as you are one of those cronies and are not doublecrossed,
or become a liability in some way,

--- you probably won’t be affected by surrendering your Constitutional rights

(found on Yahoo attached message board)

[cry baby]

95. reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials. nt

[OneTwentyoNine]

96. LOL....thats good and probably very true....nt

[upi402]

132. Good list for a Rethuglifriend of mine to see

Think I'll email it to him with the link. Then I'll call him and mention that I'm a card carrying ACLU member while on the cell phone. Maybe I should include that in my email too....

[Skidmore]

89. If your opposition can be labelled "enemy of the state" and your party

is "the state," then you can sew up the elections until someone gets the guts to slap your butt down. We have one election to turn this sinking ship back to port.

[Festivito]

90. No need to ask a judge. Gee, what happens if the pres FORGETS!?!

The president can go to a secret judge, and as president, get expedited service. Ask to hold someone, ask to use extreme measures. Say, unless we get information from this guy we might lose 500,000 people in an eastern city. The judges determine the relative cost/benefit for the risk and the veracity of the accusers.

But, no!

Not shrub. No judge. No discussion. No records?!!!

What if the shrubuffoon does this to hundreds of people and FORGETS! And, they remain held and no one remembers, no one knows?

[Reckon]

94. A Bu$h appointed secret judge and jury, no less...

We all know how that works.

This law is indeed a defining moment in our Countries history.

Even if the law is stuck down by the Supreme Court, that would take years before it's even heard, giving the NeoCons time to complete their dirty deeds of a police state, etc.

[SupplyConcerns]

93. That's it - I'm looking into leaving America

For Canada or Western Europe, I'm not sure, but I'm increasingly thinking that leaving this country before it officially falls into a Dark Age is the prudent thing to do. Once I'm out of college, that is.

[OneTwentyoNine]

98. Thats it--I'm looking into becoming even MORE involved...

in day to day poltics and get these BASTARDS gone forever. Bush and his FUCKS aren't going to run me out of this country--I'm going to do what I can to run THEIR ASS out of office.

[lonestarnot]

99. That's the spirit! NS

[SupplyConcerns]

100. Um, let's get real. Would you encourage someone living under

Genghis Khan or Stalin to simply work harder to reform their political system? Sometimes things are just so out of hand that it's delusional to say that an individual can fix their (massive) nation's political situation. We don't have a democracy, bottom-line. And American civilization overall is in steep decline, on economic, cultural and spiritual levels. I'm 21 and I realize this is the case. How old are you? I think you're being naive, basically.

[savemefromdumbya]

97. Since Bush is linked to terrorists then HE can be thrown into jail forever

[AzDar]

102. Kick (for what remains of our Country)....

:kick:

[BadgerKid]

103. And with more troops sent abroad...

there's no capable, professional guards left behind.

[Joe Bacon]

105. Bush should be afraid of what he wishes for, because he may get it!

I'd love to see this used on Ann Coulter!

[StellaBlue]

107. My comment:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1773757&mesg_id=1773980

[senseIsntCommon]

108. History Repeats Itself Yet Again, Humanity Caught Off-guard

First they came for the Muslims,
but I was not a Muslim so I did not speak out;

Then they came for the Quakers,
but I was not a Quaker so I did not speak out;

Then they came for the Homosexuals,
but I was not a Homosexual so I did not speak out;

Then they came for me,
but by that time, there was no one left to speak out.
--Me, after Martin Niemoller


So, I've been saying since before the elections in 2000 that this was the way it was going to go. In fact it was right after the elections when Dubya Shrub said,

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."

He said that on December 18, 2000. Did you think he was joking? Who says that kind of shit? No one in his right mind would say something like that unless they actually aspired to it. It's obvious he wants absolute power, if he and the Bushites didn't they wouldn't sneak around and spy on people or hold people without charge for years. They wouldn't alienate the rest of the world and try to stir up nationalistic *blind* pride. Fascism rears it's ugly head.

http://www.assassinationscience.com/Fourteen_Signs_of_Fascism.pdf


"I've met Dick Cheney. I've never stood that close to evil."--Lewis Black

[Reckon]

110. Good point about shrub's dictatorship comment.... n/t

[otherlander]

109. Ties? Well, if we go by the six degrees of seperation, I can conclude that

we're all fucking doomed.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. Oh, pshaw. I'm sure they mean well by this. It will only be used on

"evildoers". If you haven't done anything wrong, why would you mind having your phone tapped, your mail read, and your constitutional rights eliminated?

After all, whining about "Civil Liberties" is just another way of saing "I Heart Al Qaeda"

...:sarcasm:

[Malikshah]

112. Remember, Rember, the Fifth of November...

Where's V??????????????????????????

Well Aug 1 we get the DVD...maybe this whole thing is some sick merchandise tie-in... I doubt it though....

[Doctor Venmkan]

131. Aug 1...hey! That's tomorrow! Sweet....

I'll finally get a chance to watch "V for Vendetta..."

Before we all have to head for the hills...:scared:

[jonstewartgirl]

113. holyfuckingshit

THIS GUY IS THE FUCKING ANTICHRIST!!!! WHY ISN'T THIS FUCKER IMPEACHED AND ARRESTED YET??????!!!

[Guaranteed]

114. Huh....A "circular statute."

I'd argue that this statute doesn't authorize what the Administration intends it to authorize. It doesn't allow for the detention of U.S. citizens without trial.

The article states that

"According to the draft, the military would be allowed to detain all 'enemy combatants' until hostilities cease. The bill defines enemy combatants as anyone 'engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners who has committed an act that violates the law of war and this statute.'"

To be defined as an enemy combatant, then, wouldn't the person have to have been previously convicted in a court of law as having "committed an act that violates the law of war and this statute"? I mean, these are U.S. citizens we're talking about here. You can't just define them as someone who has committed such acts, and thus an "enemy combatant," without giving them their due process.

[Starfury]

115. Interesting - notice this?

The draft proposal contends that an existing law — passed by the Senate last year after exhaustive negotiations between the White House and Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz. — that bans cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment should "fully satisfy" the nation's obligations under the Geneva Conventions.

Would that be the one (of many) that Bush attached his signing statement to, declaring that he wouldn't be bound by it? Yeah, that'll work...

:eyes:

Edit: fixed typo

[LynnTheDem]

118. Saddam Hussein did it... so why can't bush do it!

If it's good enough for a tin-pot dictator...well then it'ws good enough for a tin-pot dictator!

AMERICA! RAH! RAH! RAH!

[Quantess]

124. I see it as an intimidation tactic.

People will be too terrified to speak out against their government, for fear they will be arrested......the B*sh administration hopes!

[truth2power]

126. Do you all remember..

when some here were saying, "Not to worry. AMERICAN CITIZENS are not going to be rounded up. Bushco wouldn't go that far."

Those were the same people, by the way, who were frothing at the mouth whenever anyone was so intemperate as to compare Bush to Hitler. We couldn't make that comparison until Bush ACTUALLY rounded people up and put them in concentration camps. And then, I suppose, only if crematoria were provided which were manufactured by the same companies and with the same logo on the doors as those in Nazi Germany. THEN, MAYBE, we could make the comparison. Christ Almighty!!

First they came for Arabs living in America....

[dwp6577]

127. I feel safe now!!!

Scratch that...Adolf Bushler has taken control

I'm not religious, but I'm praying for Dems in November


Everyone put a sign (poor man's bumper sticker) in the back window of their vehicle.
My current sign says:

Take back America (with my standard crossed out W)

Imagine seeing signs in thousands of windows on your commute...

[AzDar]

128. Kick....n/t

:kick:

[Deep13]

129. The difference between a civilized and uncivilized society: habeas corpus.

Per Winston Churchill

Fatherland! Fatherland!
should us the sign,
your children have longed to see.
A morning will dawn where the world is mine!
Tomorrow belongs to me!


If the NAZIs come for me, they will have to drag out my corpse. Mine won't be the only one, though. I'll have a 0.357 caliber surprise for them. Terrorists wear many costumes and I would rather be killed by Al Qieda than see our own police officers and Federal officials become terrorists themselves.

[TXVNVt]

130. The bu$hnazis won't be happy .................

until they kidnap Americans and throw them in the gulags until the Dems take over and free them.
This criminal government is just a few steps away from a Nazi goverment with it's great leader, gwbu$h, the arrogant idiot.

One thing to remember is that the bu$hnazis are spying on it's critics and political opponents.

Give the something to have to work for. Lot's of criticism.

[libodem]

133. This is insane

I really feel crazy. This is not the same county I grew up in. This sounds like the countries we were taught to hate because of the human rights abuses. I thought those bastards at least would want to preserve the basic premises of the constitution and the Bill of Rights. This is surreal. I would hope that the whole country would fill the streets and march to Washington. DEMOCRATS pleeeease SAVE us.

[dusty64]

135. And still not a PEEP

in the corporate media, I guess they are waiting till after it is passed in the middle of the night and then will sell us on how great it is and it will keep us safe.