Why doesn't Israel want a "ceasefire" yet?

[kentuck]

Because the job is not completed yet? When they feel they have accomplished their mission and are in a safer position and Hezbollah is less a threat, then they will ask US to push for a ceasefire. This "ceasefire" talk is all a bunch of hot air at this time. There is more killing to be done.

[jonnyblitz]

1. "there is more killing to be done." yup, they aren't finished

"clearing the land".

[ShockediSay]

3. to remake the middle east to Israel's liking

part of a NeoCon strategy first developed by Paul Wolfowitz and then prime minister Netanyahu - - part of a a new "breaking away" doctrine, doing away w/ a negotiated peace and dictating terms according to military actions

this was then carried back to Washington where, as you can see, there is are no real negotiations in the ME, it is to be dictated by force of arms

(source for the above is an alternate radio program "Between the Lines" broadcast last Wed morning)

problem is Iraq showed the NeoCon chickenhawks, they're not throwing flowers at us and in war, sh*t happens

we're seeing a lot of sh*t these days in supporting the Israel Lobby/NeoCon subversion of the US

imho

[mom cat]

9. The "new middle east" line that Bush is pushing! Bush ain't done yet!

:nuke:

[Karenina]

30. Job One

Clear out everyone south of the Litani River. Water is essential.

[mom cat]

31. Bingo!

[Warren Stupidity]

2. They haven't lured Syria and Iran into the conflict.

The job ain't done yet.

[KharmaTrain]

4. Has Hezbollah Said They'll Stop Firing Their Missiles?

Or any mention about them removing the other ones that are pointed at Israeli cities and towns that have killed over 50 people in the past two weeks?

Is has there been any mention as to removing militarized units other than the Lebansese army away from the Israeli border? Look at how out of joint people are in this country about a supposed "invasion" of Mexican across our Southern border...imagine if this was a real enemy with rockets that could hit Southern cities and a military that is digging in deep with only one purpose...eventual invasion...would we sit back and do nothing?

Negotiations are a two way street...right now it's what Israel's supposed to do. I have yet to hear whose speaking for or responsible for those missile launchers in Southern Lebanon or someone who will negotiate in good faith and not vow for the death and destruction of Israel.

Cease fires are generally the work of two sides working either behind closed doors or behind the scenes in coming up with terms where both sides feel some problem has been addressed. Where's the Hezbollah accomodation here?

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Hezbollah missiles have not killed 50 people.

The 52 Israeli casualties include 19 civilians. Most of the Israeli deaths have been from combat operations against Hezbollah.

Make your case, but try to stick to the facts.

[KharmaTrain]

10. One Death Is Too Many

Sorry, I don't keep scorecards here. Fact is Hezbollah is firing missiles at civilian centers...not military targets. They're using those missiles to create terror and indiscriminately kill people.

If we're gonna hold Israel to measure for their heavy-handed response, then where's any responsibility for Hezbollah? Now try answering that one.

[TahitiNut]

14. Yep. Imagine how much less 'collateral damage' would ...

... be inflicted by Hiz'ballah if they had the "smart" munitions that Israel possesses! After all, aren't we seeing a far lower rate of civilian deaths as a result of IDF actions? (Ooops!!) No, we aren't. Drat!

Golly, how can that be? How can it be that the rate of "collateral damage" inflicted by Hizb'allah is far, far lower than that of the IDF?? After all, the IDF has far, far more accurate munitions and a more 'professional' and well-trained military. (Scratching head.) Something doesn't add up.

[Solo_in_MD]

22. Think your Israeli civilain numbers are a bit low, particularly WIA

but then again the M$M isn't getting much right about the conflict

[Warren Stupidity]

26. I was referring to KIA and the numbers are from the IDF.

As of yesterday it was 52 fatalities, 19 civilian.

[bryant69]

7. There isn't one

Hezbollah isn't a country; Lebanon is. Lebanon isn't firing rockets on Israel, and yet they are invaded and their people being slaughtered. A lot more than 50 (a number I feel certain is inflated).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[hack89]

11. But Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government.

lebanon is responsible for disarm Hezbollah yet they refuse. Lebanon is not a completely innocent party here.

[KharmaTrain]

13. Lebanon Hasn't Had Control Of Those Borders Since The 70s

They never had a chance. The second the Israelis withdrew, Hezbollah moved right in. The Beirut government ceases to function south of the Litani River. While the maps show "Lebanon", it might as well say "Hezbollah" on it as this organization not only operates militarily but also delivers services a government would normally do.

The Lebanese Civil war all but "balkanized" that country. Christians live in North Beirut, Druze in the hills and the Shiites in the South. It's the Syrians who gladly played on group off against another to ensure they had the ultimate control of the region for over 25 years.

No, the Lebanese army and government isn't firing missiles into Israel, but members of their government are. It's an organization that the Lebanese government not only tolerates but colaborates with here and could have. But the Lebanese government is also a captive of Hezbollah at the barrel of a gun. Sadly innocent Lebanese people are in the crossfire of an on-going war that has been on-going since 1975...and not with Israel.

Peace...

[DRoseDARs]

8. Has Israel Said They'll Stop Killing Civilians And UN Personnel?

...with their "precision strike" missiles? No one really has a problem with Israel going after Hezbollah. The issue here is Israel is inflicting A LOT of collateral damage on the civilian population of Lebanon while doing it.

[KharmaTrain]

15. I'm Very Much Against The Heavy-Handed Reponses

...but having been to the region and up to that border, I can understand the mindset. Few in this country realize how small that part of the world is. I attempt to put it in a better perspective. Imagine you have enemies in the surrounding counties...all armed and vowing for your destruction...how would you feel?

Despite the cold peaces with Jordan and Egypt (which is better than no peace), Israelis feel surrounded by not only hostile neighbors but enemies in overwhelming numbers. The concept then is to internalize each casualty within Israel as a big event and justifying a dispropriate response based just on the mindset that there's "100 million of them and only 5 million of us". Again, I'm not condoning, just the observation of one who has been to the region.

[DRoseDARs]

16. Mindsets are one thing, actions are wholly another.

Israel has seemingly always been opposed to international intervention. Naturally, the world is likewise ambivalent towards step into a clusterfuck unless the price *cough* oil and no-bid contracts *cough* is right. Maybe now would be a good time for Israel to swallow its pride and let someone else patrol the border since there's so much talk about doing so coming from the world.

[KharmaTrain]

19. I Agree About The Border...But

I'd like to see a cold peace in Lebanon similar to what exists with Syria. The Syrians haven't launched an attack across their border since the 70's (primarily since they've had proxies in Lebanon and the West Bank doing it for them).

Part of me would prefer to see a NATO force rather than the UN...more for the professionalism of the military than for any other reason. These are the people who are on the front lines in the Balkans and have done a good job in keeping those sides from killing one another.

Now Israel was more than willing to accept International intervention...they were the ones who accepted the 1947 partion...the Arabs attacked. This is a two-way street and, unfortunately, there are no honest brokers here that are willing to get into this mess.

Israel doesn't want land here...just security. It's being able to sleep at night without the fear of a missile dropping out of nowhere into your town...or a suicide bomber blowing him/herself up at the local Szbaro pizza place.

The bottom line here is what security is Israel being offered? Don't they have the right to have borders that aren't staging areas for proxy armies? Where's that side of the equation?

[DRoseDARs]

20. I really need to go to bed, but here's what I'll say...

The Syrians have a frim grip of control on at least the southern portion of the country where it's within range of Israel; Damascus is only a short missile flight away from the border. Like you pointed out, proxies are better than doing it yourselves. Syria stands to get its ass handed to it by the IDF if it attacks Israel directly. Ergo, cold peace.

A NATO force would probably be much better given the UN's track record with armed conflicts...

As for the '47 plan, Israel acted like a spoiled brat who after fighting with the bully and winning took ALL the toys, even those that didn't belong to her. Israel may have agreed to the original plan, but they certainly have never honored it since then. They continue to occupy/inhabit land that was to be part of a Palestinian state, as well as other land disputes with neighboring countries, and then there are those damn illegal colonies/settlements and The Wall. Staging areas? Again, she needs to resign herself to international help instead of telling everyone to, "Fuck off, we'll do this ourselves!" And her neighbors needs to allow those same third parties the leeway they need to stop attacks coming from inside their borders into Israel. This non-interference give-me-pure-sovereignty-or-give-me-death malarky that so many have as their mantra in terms of international politics only serves to keep the cycle of death going.

[KharmaTrain]

21. So It Was All One-Sided?

Was it Israel that attacked in 1947 without even hesitation? Nope, it was Syria...and they had no dog in that fight. They wouldn't and still won't accept Palestinians within their borders and have used these wars for the power and profit of the Assads and other dictators who have maintained their power and repression on the Syrian people through support from Cairo or Moscow or Teheran. For 20 years, the Syrians rained rockets on Israeli farms and towns from the Golan Heights...and for what reason? To terrorize and goad Israel into a war...that was until they had their heads handed to them in '67 and '74. But rarely do we look at Syria as anything but a victim...where the real victim are the Syrian people who have lived under minority repression by the Assads and Alwahites. But let's talk about Israel shall we?

Now I recall seeing land given for peace in the Sinai in 1979...and then on the West Bank throughout the 90's. The PA had control of all functions of life in most areas of the West Bank and Gaza...and how billions were pilfered and how Arafat used Oslo to play all sides against the other...pretending to play peacemaker to get the billions from Washington while maintaining his power within the PA by rattling sabres about Israel's illegitimacy and destruction. Now try to square that one.

Yes, there needs to be a buffer zone to keep all parties from killing one another. Unfortunately the UN doesn't have the fire or manpower to do this where a NATO force could. Blue helmets only work when you have two sides who want them to work...that hasn't been the case in Lebanon.

Finally some real reality needs to set in here. Israel isn't going away, neither are the Palestinians. The only settlement is one where both parties have legitimate governments and leaders speaking for them...people with the power to negotiate and to do things that aren't politically expediant or self-serving. I don't know if we'll ever see such a thing.

Sleep well and peace...

[treestar]

29. That helps understand what fuels the emotionality of the

defense of Israel in the forums.

Though it does get you to wonder if it is worth it being there. As someone on the outside, you have to wonder, if you have to be surrounded by enemies to have a state, and you can never co-exist peacefully with them, is it really worth it? Especially when the area is so small.

I know I would be accused of anti-semitism for even suggesting that, but it really isn't. It just seems like common sense. Any Jewish person is safer in the US than they ever will be in Israel. I cannot see that Israel is a refuge from any potential future persecution of Jews in any way that the US isn't just as good, or better. Or any other western country, for that matter.

People in Africa and Indonesia in the meantime are experiencing actual genocides carried out now, and nobody is paying any attention.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. "and nobody is paying any attention"

Well that really hit the spot. We have real genocide, we have looming global crisis, and then we have the posturing, the feigned peril of nuclear power Israel with its world class military might, as it once again routinely massacres its neighbors in a lopsided conflict all in the name of security, while wondering why it cannot find peace.

[Poppyseedman]

5. Gee, you had me in agreement until the last sentence

...unless you mean more killing of Hizbollah who are intent on killing Jews for the simple reason they are Jewish. That would be a good thing.

[LiberalVoice]

12. Unfortunatly...

Innocent men, women, and children live in the same buildings as Hezbollah and they die too. Which is not a good thing. Not to mention the complete devastation of civilian infrastructure in Lebanon by Israel. Which is against international humanitarian rights laws.

[Poppyseedman]

17. You know if someone rolled a missile launcher up to my building

I think I might bug out.

Of course unless the people firing those missiles would not left me leave at the point of a gun. Hizbollah fighters use innocent civilians as human shields. Yes, of course they have the high moral ground here. :eyes:

I forgot just what is the beef Hizbollah has with Israel? Israel left Lebanon years ago, The UN marked the international border between Israel and Lebanon. The shebba farms issue is between Syria and Lebanon. Hizbollah fighters aren't Palestinians for the most part.

Must be, the real beef with Israel it is filled with Jews.

[laura888]

23. Maybe because they feel a solidarity with the Palestinians...

...who were suffering from Israel's recent (and normal) heavy-handedness, and feel that Israel's aggression needed to be checked, or they could be next.

The word "anti-semitic" or even the word "jew" should not be part of this dialog.

[Poppyseedman]

24. Denial is a powerful thing

"The word "anti-semitic" or even the word "jew" should not be part of this dialog."

So "jews" or "anti-semitic" have nothing to do with the events in the Middle East ?

Obviously, the arab world wasn't killing jews before Israel was granted statehood in 1948

I thought so :eyes:

[laura888]

25. Not part of this conflict

There were many groups who were oppressing jews for centuries.

This conflict is about a cycle of violence that started with the creation of Israel. Ultimately, it is about land.

[Karmakaze]

27. Prove it!

I have heard this human shield stuff over and over again, but I have not see one photgraph that shows one piece of military equipment in a Lebanese civillian area.

Surely the IDF can release ONE photo of a missile launcher near an apartment block? Unless of course the whole claim is complete and utter BULLSHIT.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. Or perhaps the photos clearly showing the Hezbollah

military equipment next to the UN observation post? It seems that this site was under surveillance from an IDF drone while the attack was underway. Just show us the photos.

[Poppyseedman]

36. Proved

Turn on your TV and watch the rockets being launched from civilian locations. The IDF released a video after it killed a bunch kids.

Of course you can pretend to believe the jews are indiscriminately targeting civilians populations, like Hizbollah, if you wish, denial is a powerful thing.

[LiberalVoice]

35. Do you hear me defending Hezbollah?

No you dont.

What about the handicapped? The elderly? I guess its "If you dont want to be blown up leave your homes and all your earthly possesions, and do it quick cuz we have alot more of your peoples homes to destroy." :eyes: Your argument is quite weak.

[KoKo]

18. The devastation of the Infrastructure and Economy was Over reach....

There's just no way to justify that, imho. :-(

[LiberalVoice]

34. Are you saying...

the Israeli bombing of civilian infrastructure was overreach or the claim that civilian infrastructure has been destroyed is over reach?

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. Or killing of one day old babies and their mothers

as just shown on British TV. They were buried in grave 105, I think (it might have been 106).