The UN outpost in Lebanon was there for 20 years. TWENTY.

[QuettaKid]

and had UN painted on all four sides of the building. I guess the israeli's just didn't have any good maps of that area.:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[ShortnFiery]

1. I don't think Hamas nor Hezbollah would get-over with

what Israeli is calling the "shit happens" excuse.

Way to make the world HATE YOU (and US) More Israeli Leaders. :nuke: :grr:

[CuteNFuzzy]

2. The killings were deliberate no doubt

[Kagemusha]

3. Why was the fire getting close to scare them in the first place?

I don't know what the hell the Israelis were thinking. Did someone decide (against the PM's assurances) that this was a legit military target? That Hezbollah was hiding behind it? Hiding arms under it? Something?

[Norquist Nemesis]

4. The paint was peeling. They thought it had been abandoned,

by mistake. :sarcasm:

[Cooley Hurd]

5. Israel's excuse - Hezbollah was hiding behind the building...

...however, I cannot understand why they felt the need to blast it anyway. Couldn't they have waited, or sent paratroopers in? Was it worth killing UN personnel?:shrug:

[Igel]

20. I hadn't heard an actual reason for striking the building.

But the UN's complained about being used as shields in a few other instances.

They're like Lebanon. They won't make Hezbollah mad by telling them to move away; the reason's obvious. When they run across Hezbollah checkpoints, they follow orders and present their credentials. They don't even complain. They have good relations with Hezbollah. They have bad relations with Israel. Then again, they live in Hezbollah-controlled territory, *not* in Israeli-controlled territory.

They may have a mandate to help disarm Hezbollah and restore central-government control in the area, but their first priority is staying alive.

[Ms. Clio]

55. The UN says Hizbollah was not in the vicinity at the time of the strike

and it sounds like you are obliquely (per usual) calling them "terrorist sympathizers," which was what someone else on this board, rather more crudely, said.

[greguganus]

34. Yes, the paint peeled and all the pilots saw was a huge 'X' n/t

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

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[cali]

16. That's totally unneccessary

and unhelpful. Shame on you for calling the poster antisemitic. Her feelings about Israel don't mean she's antisemitic.

[cali]

17. self-delete.

[Cooley Hurd]

19. You're joking, right?

If not, let me say that I'm SICK TO DEATH of any mention of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty being met with cries of anti-semitism.

Read up on it...:grr:

[LostinVA]

31. They aren't joking -- read their other posts

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

51. My thoughts, too...

[malaise]

59. Video on UN post

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/help/3681938.stm

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. I'm curious about this.

Why is the assumption made that someone who disapproves of Israel's actions as a sovereign nation is by extension anti-Semitic?

When I've said the Bush administration should go to hell, no one has accused me of being anti-Christian and last I checked I'm pretty sure they all claim the label.

[fooj]

65. I don't know...but it is really starting to piss me off.

It's bullshit. What they are doing is in direct violation of international law. The Americans are doing the same. Wrong is wrong. A crime is a crime. I don't give a damn WHO you are.

[niyad]

25. there is a particular reason you are being so offensive? since when is

it not permissable to actually discuss in detail all of a country's actions, motives, etc?

oh, I get it, you forgot to turn on the sarcasm icon, right???

[LostinVA]

32. Read their other posts --

[Tyler Durden]

27. Evil to him who evil wishes.

I can personally dislike, disapprove the actions of, and wish for the comeuppance of the Militaristic, Exclusionary and Racist (YES, RACIST) State of Israel all I want, and still be the least anti-Semitic person that YOU will ever meet.

I suppose a CHRISTIAN of WHITE SUPREMACIST exclusionary, militaristic and racist state would be JUST FINE?

When Israel comes RIGHT OUT and DENIES the right of Palestinian Refugees to return to land they have been EVICTED from, soley because it would "Dilute" the "Jewishness" of a "Jewish State," then you can substitute WHITE, GERMAN, BLACK, or MUSLIM for JEWISH in that statement, and the racist policy is demonstrated.

Israel can exist all they want, but it's time to quit squatting on land that belongs to others and bombing the SHIT out of people who didn't launch rockets at them.

[Jacobin]

35. Thank you.

Theocracies suck.

[Tyler Durden]

38. ALL Theocracies suck.

Muslim ones.

Christian ones.

AND Jewish ones.

I am sorely tired of having my life and liberty threatened by people who (DISCLAIMER: IN MY OPINION) believe in imaginary omnipotent beings requiring slavish, abject worship.

Didn't the 21st century, not the TENTH, start recently?

[Pacifist Patriot]

68. An opinion we share.

I agree.

[oberliner]

26. Memos show Liberty attack was an error

WASHINGTON - New documents released this week by America's National Security Agency support Israel's version of a long-festering controversy between the two countries: Israel's shelling of an American spy ship, the USS Liberty, off the coast of Gaza during the 1967 Six-Day War.

Israel has always said it had no idea the ship was American, but conspiracy theorists and anti-Israel propagandists still claim Israel struck the ship in the full knowledge that it was American.

<snip>

"It's the last piece of intelligence that remained classified, and every rational person that will read it will understand that there is no truth in these conspiracy theories against Israel," Cristol said yesterday. But he added: "Those who hate Israel, who hate Jews, and those who believe in conspiracy will not be convinced by anything."

link: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=315949&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

[Tyler Durden]

33. A 76 minute long error.

Right.

I am tired of excuses made for militaristic, xenophobic, and RACIST (YES, RACIST) states and their military adventures, INCLUDING the one I live in, the United States.

You want to post against anti-Semitism, fine. But your bias towards a state with a "LOOK OUT, IT'S GOT A GUN!!!" Shane and "PICK UP THE GUN!" mentality in the name of opposing anti-Semitism is showing.

[fooj]

66. Interesting how new info was released on JULY 24, 2006...

Give me a break.

[Cooley Hurd]

40. Utter bullshit - she was flying a US flag and was clearly marked...

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/u120000/u123118c.htm



A. Jay Cristol has issues with telling the truth:
http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/commentary/cristol/critiquecristol.html

<snip>
Among the endorsements shown on the back cover of The Liberty Incident is one from Vice Admiral Donald Engen:

"The name I want you to remember is Jay Cristol. . . . He knows more about the Liberty than anybody else in the world. . . . He's got the most balanced view of anybody I've ever known."
What is the purpose of a book jacket quotation? Presumably, it is to advise prospective readers of the opinions of knowledgeable experts who have read the book and recommend it.

The Liberty Incident was copyrighted by its publisher, Brassey's, in 2002 - the year of the book's publication. Notice the date of death in the photo below.


</snip>

[rman]

41. BS

WAR CRIMES REPORT FILED BY USS LIBERTY SURVIVORS

War Crimes Committed Against U.S. Military Personnel, June 8, 1967

Submitted to the Secretary of the Army in his capacity as Executive Agent for the Secretary of Defense, June 8, 2005.

This report of war crimes committed against U.S. military personnel is submitted to the Honorable Secretary of the Army in his capacity as Executive Agent for the Secretary of Defense, pursuant to Department of Defense Directive Number 5810.01B (29 March 2004) <1> .

This Report is filed by the USS Liberty Veterans Association, Inc. a California non-profit corporation, recognized by the Internal Revenue Service as a Section 501(c)(3) tax exempt veterans organization, acting on behalf of the surviving crewmembers of USS Liberty.
http://www.ussliberty.org


http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm

Survivor James M. Ennes, Jr., Exhibit 12:

"Yet despite these things a few Americans seem to accept the preposterous claim that the attack was a mistake and that firing stopped with the torpedo explosion. One can accept and understand this attitude from an Israeli, as he would have a natural tendency to believe his country's version of events and to disbelieve contrary versions -- especially since he has no personal experience to draw upon. But how can an American disbelieve the virtually identical eyewitness reports of scores of surviving fellow Americans and accept instead the undocumented claims of the foreign power that tried to kill them? That is very difficult to understand or to accept.

The typical Israeli reaction is that we are liars or antiSemites, which of course we are not. We are American sailors honestly reporting an act of treachery at sea. At the very least we deserve your courtesy and understanding."

...

The Israeli report indicates that a ship was reported in the area by reconnaissance aircraft at 0600 and that another report was received of a contact between an Israeli aircraft and a surface vessel about 0900. The Navy Court finding of facts, plus testimony of various members of the crew indicate reconnaissance overflights of the Liberty at 0515, 0850, 1030, 1056, 1126, 1145, 1220, and 1245."

...

At the time of the attack, the U.S.S Liberty was flying the American flag and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. It was broad daylight and the weather conditions were excellent. Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air. At 1450 hours local time on June 8, 1967, two Israeli aircraft circled the U.S.S. Liberty three times, with the evident purpose of identifying the vessel. Accordingly there is every reason to believe that the U.S.S Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined, by Israeli aircraft approximately one hour before the attack. In these circumstances, the later military attack by Israeli aircraft on the U.S.S. Liberty is quite literally incomprehensible. As a minimum, the attack must be condemned as an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life.

The subsequent attack by Israeli torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life. The silhouette and conduct of the U.S.S Liberty readily distinguished it from any vessel that could have been considered as hostile. The U.S.S. Liberty was peacefully engaged, posed no threat whatsoever to the torpedo boats, and obviously carried no armament affording it a combat capability. It could and should have been scrutinized visually at close range before torpedoes were fired.

---

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"
-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson

"The highest officials of the administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."
-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)

[oberliner]

47. read the transcripts

They are declassified and publically available.

[Cooley Hurd]

48. The men of the USS Liberty are UNANIMOUS in believing that...

...the attack was intentional. They were there, you and Jay cristol were not.

[Tyler Durden]

49. I will accept HAARETZ the same day I accept AL JAZEERA

Which is...NEVER.

I suggest you are joined to the hip with ANYTHING pro-Israel, no matter how silly. Your posts suggest they do no wrong, and everyone who is not on their side espouses their destruction.

Your mind is closed, making your arguments invalid.

[rman]

50. Sequence of events:

1. USS Liberty is bombed
2. US spy plane arrives in the area while Israeli helicopters are being dispatched to USS Liberty, spy plane records orders to the helicopter pilots: "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian."

So there's no actual evidence that the Israelis did not know the ship was a US vessel at the time that it was attacked.

The evidence does however reveal that the Israelis had at first identified the ship as a war ship.

[lebkuchen]

7. It was white, UN flags all around it, and Anan got personal assurances

from Israel that it would be left alone after bombs were dropped all around it.

That Israel can`t get its coordinates straight goes to show that Israel has no business dropping bombs.

Personal opinion: Israel bombed the UN on purpose to dissuade other countries from leading an international peacekeeping force there. The US wants war, and it wants to entice Syria and Iran into that war.

Israel is outraged by Anan`s comments that Israel probably bombed on purpose. The Canadian, Finnish, Chinese, and Austrian outrage is yet to be heard. If anyone has the right to be outraged, it would be those countries­.

Meanwhile, Condi talks stability and democracy while delivering ``precision`` bombs to Israel. What a crock.

[malaise]

10. It was fugging deliberate

After many hours of being close to being hit and after repeated UN efforts to stop the attacks, a precision guided missile was dropped on a KNOWN UN POSITION. The Zionists can spin and lie as they like - it was fugging deliberate and it has not been condemned internationally as it should have been.

The rest of this planet better wake up and fast.

[jerry611]

14. Wake up and do what about it?

If you arn't on Israel's side, then do you pick Hezbollah's side? Hezbollah intentionally targets civilians. They intentionally kill women and children.

So...you want the world to wake up..but what do you want to do about it? This is a very, very ugly conflict that has been raging off and on for 1,000 years. There are war crimes being committed by both sides continuously. They just dont care about the rules of war anymore.

[rman]

45. You got to be kidding

"If you arn't on Israel's side, then do you pick Hezbollah's side"...

[Igel]

23. Do you have a source for the

"precision guided missile" bit?

Hours of strikes, and the precision guided missiles always missed, it seems. But the use of a precision guided missile guaranteed success.

Still sounds like cross-border helicopter-mounted missiles and artillery shells to me.

Otherwise, I've heard a few facts--UNIFIL people killed by airborne explosives after asking that their position be defended--and little else.

"Unarmed" is new, though. If UNIFIL's completely unarmed, it explains why Hezbollah can treat them as a magic anti-attack charm.

[malaise]

42. Yes

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19925375-31477,00.html

<snip>
UN observers made 10 frantic telephone calls to the Israeli military, warning them aerial attacks were getting close to their post, in the hours before a direct hit on their bunker killed four peacekeepers.

A UN report released last night said the peacekeepers were told during each of the calls that the bombing would cease, but they were then hit by a precision-guided missile.

Meanwhile US Ambassador Bolton sided with the Israeli interpretation that it was an accident. Surprised - NOT:puke: :puke:

[Igel]

54. Thanks.

But the article doesn't help; it's either a shell or a missile, according to the reporter, but I doubt it's both at once; and the reporter refers to a statement from Annan and a UN report that was released last night, but the UN website only has one thing, Anna's statement, released last night. Has anybody got a link to the report referred to by the reporter?

[malaise]

58. More details here now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5217176.stm

[lebkuchen]

61. CBC is saying 3 precision guided missiles.

[tabasco]

44. False choice.

"You're either with Israel or you're with the terrorists!"

LMAO. It sounds just oh so familiar. :crazy: :dunce:

[LostinVA]

52. GWB, the newly anointed Darth Vader...

[Igel]

53. Obviously you're responding to somebody else.

You won't find your quote in what I said.

If it was artillery, it means it was fired from miles away in response to fire from near the UN position. If they staged some 14 attacks, it makes it unlikely they knew they were attacking a UN facility from that distance. What, they'd think that nobody had a phone? Even though they were getting calls to stop the shelling?

Rather than put things in neat little pockets based on fragmentary reports, I'd like to know exactly what happened to the greatest extent possible before drawing a conclusion; for me, to claim 'reasonable doubt' is a simple task, but to claim 'war crimes' is a harder task. Currently, I have no information that pushes me in either direction. Apparently there's a UN report that I hadn't heard of when I made my post that either says 'precision guided missile' or which the reporter interprets to mean 'precision guided missile.' I can't find the report online to check which it is--it wasn't on the UN site this morning--but would be curious to see the basis for the claim; Annan referred to "aerial attack", but that's ambiguous. I'm not ruling out that the 'precision guided missile' business is merely a reinterpretation of 'aerial attack', by a reporter who hasn't seen IDF descriptions of how they strike Hezbollah targets near the border. But I'm not assuming that it wasn't, either.

Here's a bit of trivial: The news story definitively calling it a 'precision guided missile' also says there were other missiles that landed nearby, and referred to the one that struck the bunker as a "shell." I'm unfamiliar with precision guided missiles being referred to as 'shells'. Was it a shell or a precision guided missile? Well, from that story, both: yet only one line gets cited.

Just the facts, for now. 4 UNIFIL observers killed, unarmed, by the Israeli military. Means, unclear; purpose, unclear; actual target, unclear.

[tabasco]

69. I'm terribly sorry, I was repsonding to post #14.

Thank you for your assistance and have a wonderful DU day!! :hi:

[lebkuchen]

60. CBC news says the UN site was bombed 3 times.

That is as deliberate as it gets. The US provided the bombs, btw. Condi is a worm, talking stability and democracy while providing Israel the ammo to undermine the preamble to the UN constitution, whose stated goal is to prevent the scourge of another world war.

I just read the poll about the malaise of the American people. Who can blame them for being depressed. They have a lot to be concerned about.

[blonndee]

15. Annan: Israel bombed UN base for hours

Annan: Israel bombed UN base for hours

· UN chief proposes joint investigation
· No sign of ceasefire agreement
· Aid agencies criticise Blair

Staff and agencies
Wednesday July 26, 2006
Guardian Unlimited

The UN general secretary, Kofi Annan, today accused the Israeli military of carrying out a sustained bombing of the UN base on the Lebanon-Israel border that culminated in the killing of four unarmed monitors.

<snip>

"But the shelling started in the morning and went on until after 7pm. You cannot imagine the anguish of the unarmed men and women peacekeepers who were there."

According to a detailed timeline of the incident provided by an unidentified UN officer and reported by CNN, the first bomb exploded around 200 metres from the post at 1.20pm (11.20am BST) yesterday.

Unifil observers then telephoned their designated contact with the Israeli military, who assured them the attacks would stop. In the following hours, nine more bombs fell close to the post, each one followed by a call to the Israeli military, the UN officer said.

full story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1830397,00.html

[Malikshah]

8. It was a mistake? A la USS Liberty??? Website below

http://www.ussliberty.org/

It's deja vu all over again.

[Cooley Hurd]

18. Similar to USS Liberty in this respect... Israel doesn't like witnesses...

...to its war crimes.:grr:

[jerry611]

12. Both sides of this hate the United Nations

The arabs think the UN is against them because that is the body that established Israel. Israel doesn't like the UN because they think they favor the Palestinians and wont do anything to stop terrorism.

Remember that Al-Queda bombed the UN building in Baghdad a few years ago. They think the UN is a tool used by the western powers to try to change the culture and politics of the mid-east. Israel doesn't listen to UN resolutions...and neither do the terrorist groups.

So, it is just not a very friendly region for the United Nations.

[Recursion]

21. Was it in Hebrew?

Would you recognize ונ if you saw it on a building? :sarcasm:

20 years, though... I'm really really having trouble believing they didn't know what it was. Though it's just possible that the IDF has some brass who are crazy enough to think the UN is their enemy -- I know the US has some brass like that :(

[shadowknows69]

24. One CNN anchor threw the theory out there while talking to an analyst

that it could have been hizbollah rockets. They have been comepletely shameless with their bias toward israel since this started.

[QuettaKid]

29. I gotta say though

it is really upsetting to see how divisive this makes us. Trying to think of an analogy on the freepers side of things, and off th etop of my head, I can't. Anti-Israeli does NOT mean Anti-Semite. That cannot be repeated enough.

[flpoljunkie]

28. BBC: "Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea"

Last Updated: Wednesday, 26 July 2006, 12:56 GMT 13:56 UK


Israel had hit Khiam a number of times earlier on Tuesday

Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea

Israel had hit Khiam a number of times earlier on Tuesday

UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling nearby, diplomats familiar with the initial probe into the deaths say.

The news came as crisis talks in Rome failed to call for an immediate ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel.

Reports say up to 13 Israeli soldiers died in the latest fighting.

The four unarmed UN observers from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, died after their UN post was hit by an Israeli air strike on Tuesday.

The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop.

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5217176.stm

[shadowknows69]

30. So then somebody explain to me why this doesn't make Olmert

a war criminal?

[Tyler Durden]

36. But it DOES...NO, WAIT!!!!

YOU ANTI-SEMITIC BASTARD! ANYTHING ISRAEL DOES CAN BE JUSTIFIED BY ANTI-SEMITISM!

-sarcasm off. And heartily bored with US support of ALL terrorist states, not just Israel.

[shadowknows69]

39. Hear hear

If I have to wear the Anti-semite tag so be it. Israel will get no cheers from me for killing the enemy along with innocents.

[Imajika]

43. and it achieved absolutely nothing...

"The UN outpost in Lebanon was there for 20 years. TWENTY."

Kind of waste of world taxpayer money wasn't it?

I certainly felt bad for the UN observers that got killed, but my first reaction was why were they still there and had they actually achieved anything at all ever?

[rman]

46. Except for creating more "anti-semitism"...

which is then reason for Israel to act even more forceful.

Ten eyes for an eye makes world go blind real quick.

[Sensitivity]

56. Their job was to "OBSERVE," take pictures, do reports: Thats why they were

eliminated.

[Malikshah]

57. Wow-- might want to put those questions to their families

Maybe the area in which they were stationed remains a hotbed...

Guess folks in the DMZ area in Korea...

Wow...just wow.

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. The more indefensible the position

The more shameless become the apologists.

It really is a curious phenomenon, and worth study.

[CuteNFuzzy]

63. true

[ecstatic]

64. had they blown it up on the first try, people might have been more willing

to give the Israeli military the benefit of the doubt. But this assault took place for hours and hours, after repeated frantic calls and pleas.

[nebula]

67. Not the first time

Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 05:44 AM by nebula
" On April 18, 1996, Israeli Armed Forces shelled a United Nations Interim Forces in Lebanon (UNIFIL) Compound in Qana, Lebanon killing 106 civilians and wounding hundreds of others. The shelling marked one of the bloodiest massacres in Lebanon’s modern history. Israeli and American pressures shelved a UN investigation, but legal actions are now being taken in an effort to redress this injustice."


link


Israel seems to be making a habit of it. Horrible.