Are you responsible for the predictable consequences of your actions?

[porphyrian]

Well, are you?

[Pierre.Suave]

1. how predictable

???

[porphyrian]

2. It is or it isn't. - n/t

[patcox2]

20. I am not hectoring you, this is a favorite topic of mine - statistics.

When the predictability involves incidence of a phenomenon in a population, like the incidence of cancer amongst smokers, or the incidence of teen pregnancies amongst students subjected to the "abstinence-only" curriculum, there is an infinitely variable continuum of predictability. In addition, even though science can say that it is a fact that smoking might greatly increase your chances of lung cancer, it cannot say in regard to any one individual that they definitely would not have gotten lung cancer if they had not smoked. So, there are indeed many grades of predictability, and there is one of the greatest problem areas in the the business of assigning "responisbility" to people for the consequents of their acts.

[porphyrian]

22. Well, in the absence of a specific definition, how do you respond?

Your particular response is to dissect the meaning of "responsibility."

[patcox2]

23. No, now I am analyzing the difficulties in determining "foreseeability."

My last post was all about foreseeability, not responsibility.

The answer, in the end, is that it is a judgment which must be made in light of all the particular circumstances. The various rules used in analyzing, for example, moral fault(developed over centuries by the catholic church) and civil and criminal responsibility(developed over centuries by the courts), although not necessarily pure in a philosophical sense, nevertheless provide some pragmatic rules which are of great utility and are not to be cast aside lightly.

You are completely leaving out very useful concepts such as malice, scienter, mens rea, and the distinctions between purposeful, knowing, reckless, and careless behavior. You have reduced it to causation alone, and even then leaving out any way to deal with the problem of multiple concurrent causes.

[porphyrian]

24. Please, keep adding anything you'd like. - n/t

[patcox2]

3. What does "responsible" mean? Seriously.

Can't really answer unless I know that.

[porphyrian]

6. Responsible - adj.

1. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.
2. Involving personal accountability or ability to act without guidance or superior authority: a responsible position within the firm.
3. Being a source or cause.
4. Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior.
5. Able to be trusted or depended upon; reliable.
6. Based on or characterized by good judgment or sound thinking: responsible journalism.
7. Having the means to pay debts or fulfill obligations.
8. Required to render account; answerable: The cabinet is responsible to the parliament.

[patcox2]

16. So, which definition?

May I assume you mean "answerable for" or "liable to give account for."

Even then, there is moral responsibility and legal responsibility.

There are very complex rules governing "responsibility," whether moral or legal. The foreseeability of the consequences is just a small part of it, and not so much a rule for determining when one is responsible, but rather an exception, one is not responsible for the unforeseeable consequences of one acts, an exception to the rule that one is responsible for one's acts.

Measuring "foreseeability" is of course problematic; morally, it is not right to hold someone to a standard beyond their capacity, for example. Thats why we do not hold children or the insane to the same standard as others, they cannot understand or foresee the consequences of their acts as well. Are you responsible if the act would have been foreseeable to a supersmart gifted and talented person, but you didn't foresee it because you are a dull normal?

And what of the probabilities? Are you responsible if it is reasonably foreseeable that your act created a 50/50 chance someone would die? How about a 1% chance someone would die? How about a 1 in 100,000 chance someone would die? Assume that the chance of you crashing your car is 1 in 1 million, for each time you drive it. Now suppose if you drive the car with a BAC above .08%, this increases the chance of an accident tenfold, to 1 in 100,000? Is this sufficient difference to say you are innocent in the first instance and call you a murderer in the second?

As a general rule, the law will not impose criminal sanctions for consequences that are the result of the deliberate acts of third parties, and to some extent that holds true in the moral analysis of a chain of events as well.

If the consequences of my acts are scientifically and mathematically predictable, as in, if I roll the boulder down the hill towards town, I am certainly responsible. On the other hand, if its a matter involving human behavior an sociological phenomenon, then it becomes very unclear.

You will note Condi Rice having on more than one occasion made statements beginning with "noone could have foreseen that . . ." Almost as if setting up her defense.

These are just some of the considerations. Its too complicated a topic to be answered with a simple yes or no.

[porphyrian]

18. Well then, I'm glad you didn't. - n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Was it the Seneca

or the Iroquois Confederation that said they based their decisions upon the consequences to the seventh generation after them? Wouldn't it be nice if we looked even a little further ahead in time to try and determine consequences?

[porphyrian]

7. It sure would. - n/t

[BOSSHOG]

5. I see bush hasn't vote yet (after five votes)

Another piece of the puzzle is that many people are not held to account for some or many of their actions.

[Bretttido]

8. Too vague to answer

[porphyrian]

9. What's too vague? - n/t

[Bretttido]

25. Predictability is vague

Predictable to what level... 90% chance of something happening? and according to whom? PNAC predicted that the dominoes of democracy and freedom would spread throughout the middle-east and stabilize the region if we force-fed democracy to Iraq; they forgot to take into account, however, that they are complete morans.

[bryant69]

10. I'm not responsible for what other people see as the

predictable consequences of my actions. Unless they make a convincing argument and change my mind, of course.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[porphyrian]

11. Fair enough. - n/t

[whistle]

12. When is a consequence of an action not predictable?

...I guess Donald Rumsfeld would say: "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
Donald Rumsfeld

He also said this: "If in doubt, don't. If still in doubt, do what's right."
Donald Rumsfeld

And finally, just to cover his ass, Rumsfeld said: "If (still) in doubt, move decisions up to the President."

If this poll is to get anyone in the Bush administration of the hook, let their own words set the judgment.

[porphyrian]

14. There are lots of unforeseen factors in any given situation...

...that can cause unpredictable consequences. Say you stop to give a homeless veteran some money before you cross the street. When you say good bye and good luck and continue on your way, a pigeon shits on your head. If you had not stopped to give money, the bird shit would've missed you. Like that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. "I'll take the responsibilty but not the blame." Richard M. Nixon

Which seems to sum up the position of most politians.

As for me, I generally take responsibility for what I do, or it's given me. I've got the scars and the benefits to prove it.

[porphyrian]

15. Re: the Nixon quote

Isn't blame just responsibility with a negative connotation? Damn doublespeak.

[patcox2]

17. Not doublespeak, but a distinction between types of responsibility.

For example, a captain is responsible for the safety of his ship, without regard to his personal fault. He or she is responsible, regardless of whether their conduct is to blame for any mishap.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. The obverse would be, "I'll take the credit but not the responsibility"

[bemildred]

21. Responsibility and authority go together.

You are responsible to the extent that you have a choice.