I mad assed okie will support the dem canidate in '08 no matter

[madokie]

who it is. It could be Saddamm himself I don't care. I don't know of a dem so crooked as this cabal in the WH now

[Deep13]

1. Yep, pretty much.

There's a few I won't support in the primary, but any D is better than any R.

[BushOut06]

4. I don't know if I'd go that far...

Lieberman, Zel Miller, and Ben Nelson are DINOs. If it ever comes to one of them against a gopher for pres, then it truly is time to leave the country.

[madokie]

8. But they'll never be there to worry about

Too old and proud to run, I'll stand and fight to the bitter end and then take it like a man if it need be.

[madokie]

6. as in '04 I was for Dean first but backed Kerry in the elections

I will have my preferences but they will not trump my desire to clean this mess up that we have in our government now. Any dem, hell even Mickey Mouse, it don't matter. I want my country back and that is the first step to take.

[The_Mule]

52. With his love of money,

I'm pretty sure Mickey Mouse is a Republican.

[madokie]

53. Oh shit didn't think of that

:rofl:

[Deja Q]

9. I disagree!

NAFTA, DMCA, DOMA, 1996 telecom reform, 1995 welfare reform, and numerous other things instantly shatter your claim.

All of the above have led to real problems, and that welfare reform didn't include corporate subsidies... one of the biggest frauds of all time.

[Deep13]

12. Would the Rs have been better?

I kinda doubt it.

[acmejack]

2. Joe Liebermann thanks you!

nt

[rodeodance]

5. I would scringe as i cast my ballot but i would it (the thought of it is

not a nice image).

[Inland]

11. Oh, there will be a republican candidate that will make Joe look

like a democrat. You'll still have a choice between dumb and dumber.

[bunkerbuster1]

40. As angry and frustrated as I get at Joementum...

if he were a Reep, every single Freepig would be crapping on him, calling him a "tree hugger" and "baby killer."

I've been saying for awhile that the worst Dem is still better than the best Reep, at least on a national-politics level, and I've seen no reason to change that view.

[Inland]

46. In rephrasing an old joke, he should switch to repubs

and raise the level of both parties. No seriously, he's a democrat, just the worst democrat around.

[gordianot]

3. In supporting any Republican remember the motto "Caveat Emptor".

[The Whiskey Priest]

7. A suggestion---the same sentiment should apply to 06

Maybe we can prevent Imhoff from returning to Washington.

[madokie]

10. You got it, and then we work on dr tom

[MadHound]

13. And thus the continuing enabling of

The two party/same corporate master system of government proceeds unabated.

When will you people start to realize that if we continue to blindly support people simply due to the D behind their name, we will continue to wind up with corporate candidates, who put the interests of big business ahead of the interests of the people? Do you really want to see pro-war candidates running for the Presidentcy? Do you really want to sacrifice the lifes of thousands of our soldiers, and hundreds of thousands of innocents simply in order to hollowly claim "We Won"? Everybody moans and groans about how far the party has shifted to the right, how it has lost its spine, how it bows down to the demands of corporate America, well, guess what. It is the type of uncritical thinking and actions that got us into this situation, and continuing to employ the same strategy is not going to bring different results. What good is "winning" when in reality, once that candidate is in office, we will continue to lose jobs overseas, our social safety net will continue to be shredded, and the war will still be a bloody meatgrinder? Is that really a win?

If we want real change in this country, if we want it to fulfill the potential that we all can see, we have to start holding our political leaders accountable for their actions. If they're pro-war, don't elect them. If they're in favor of contined increases in outsourcing, don't elect them. Keep this kind of pressure up and soon they will get the message that they really do have to be accountable to the people. But to continue to vote for them, without any sort of accountability simply because of the D behind their name is only enabling their further trashing of this country. It is a short term "gain" that will lead to dire consequences for all of us, and the rest of the world.

This is a democracy people, we're the ones who our politicians are ultimately accountable to. If you want real change in this country, stop blindly voting for people, and start holding them accountable for their actions. Do this and they will get the message soon enough, and we will have the country we dream of. Don't do this and we will continue down that merry path to complete corporate control, and a country that weeps under our burden of oppression. It is up to you.

[madokie]

14. You better get started on whatever it is we gonna' do bro, time is wasting

[MadHound]

16. We're in the midst of it now, and it isn't just up to me friend.

It is up to all of us to hold our so called leaders accountable. It isn't a magic fix, it is a long term deal. But if we continue to settle for the short term "fix", the Democratic "win", we will continue to wind up with what we deserve, corporate controlled candidates who put the interests of big business ahead of the people that they are supposed to represent.

[madokie]

17. I guess I'm just dense, but fill me in on what to do.

[MadHound]

22. Use your vote wisely to hold your leaders accountable.

Don't vote for a pro-war candidate simply due to the D behind their name, is that any way to stop a war. If it means going Green, go Green. The power of our vote is the strongest tool we have for holding politicians accountable. Time to start using it.

[madokie]

23. I know what you are saying but not much of a chance of a 'green'

making it. And I won't vote one issue, I vote the whole package.

[MadHound]

32. Of course there isn't much of a chance friend, that's not the point.

The point is to scare the shit out of our reps in order that they shape up. See my post below about FDR and the Socialists, a victory that we can achieve again if we would stop blindly voting for letters.

And I'm not asking you to be a one issue voter, by any means. But given the corporate control of both parties, you will find that on many, if not most issues, there is little difference between the two parties. I mean really now, how much more evidence of that do we need than watching the Dems for the past six years. Voting for the IWR, Patriot Act, bankruptcy bill, on and on ad nauseum. They're starting to show some fight now, but frankly, it might be too little too late.

It is time that all of us start holding our leaders accountable. Doing anything else will only insure that this once great nation will slide down that slippery slope to plutocracy and fascism. The warning signs are there, let's start heeding them.

[The Whiskey Priest]

15. You get a viable number of voters registered

that would give that party a snowballs chance in hell of winning and that party has a good progressive agenda, then I would consider working and voting for them.

[MadHound]

18. I'm not neccessarily saying that we should vote Green,

Though it would probably come down to that at one point or another. We still have the power of the primary to wield. Thus, if it comes down to a pro-war candidate and an anti-war candidate in the primaries, then by all means, vote for the anti-war canidate.

If it comes down to two pro-war candidates during the general election, then yes, we should all turn our backs on this false choice. Don't sit there and state that you're waiting for X number of registered voters, the ball will be in your court, and you should act accordingly. Even if the Greens don't win, we will send a powerful message of change, and will put change into motion. Let me give you an example of this sort of power.

Back during FDR's first term, as his first re-election approached, he was scared shitless of the threat from the Socialist party. He could see that they were gaining a great deal of following, not enough neccessarily enough to win an election, but enough to throw one. Thus he acted bolding to stop this threat. He did so by adapting two of the Socialists biggest issues. And by doing so he got swarms of people coming over to vote for him because they wanted to see those two issues made into law. Thus, FDR pre-empted the Socialist threat, and implemented two of our most long lasting relief programs for the people. Those two issues that FDR snagged as his own? Social Security and Unemployment Insurance.

This is a perfect example of holding our politicians accountable, and this is what we have to start doing now. We can't sit here and wait for others, it is up to each and every one of us to start holding our reps accountable. We hold the ultimate power, the vote. And it is high time that we started using it. Anything else is simply wrong, morally and spiritually wrong. You may be cofortable with the blood of innocents on your hands, but I'm certainly not. Think about it.

[The Whiskey Priest]

20. I am all for telling them how I feel

and working like hell to convince to take up my position...but in an elections you sometimes have to take the lesser of two evils....which means in some locales you vote Democratic when they don't quite pass the purity test.

[MadHound]

27. And thus evil continues to flourish in our country.

Really now, I know it is hard to get past this sticking point, but it's true. Voting for evil, lesser or greater, only continues to empower that evil. What is the difference between two pro corporate candidates, one of which has an R behind their name, the other with a D? Both will continue to support outsourcing, both will continue to erode the protections for our enviroment, for consumers, for more corporate control over our lives. What it comes down to in the end is simply. . . letters, D, or R. Do you really just want to vote for one letter over another? This isn't Sesame Street friend, there are real consequences at stake.

And telling them how you feel is all well and good, something that I wish more people would do, and that I encourage everybody to do. But when push comes to shove, the only real power that we have is the power of the vote, and if we want to bring about real change, we have got to start using it. Otherwise, we'll just continue this little trip in a handbasket, and watch as this becomes a nation of perpetual war and corporate serfs. I'm not willing to let that happen without a fight, neither should you.

[The Whiskey Priest]

33. Just voting for a dream

doesn't mean that dream becomes reality. You can go to bed with a great feeling that you did the right thing, but at the same time there are people going to bed hungry that might not have done so with the lessor evil. With the repubs you can count on the little guy not getting a fair shake....with the Democrats they at least so some empathy and have done some great things for the disadvantaged in this country.

You cannot have it all...so you take the most you can get..then work like hell to get a little more. The ruling elite understand that principle. They have been chipping away for more than three decades. Take a little, then take some more...if you vote for a cause that is un-winnable vs a cause that is somewhat fulfilling of your cause and you win, then you have denied those who are totally against your cause.

[madokie]

35. I will vote for the dem because he will have a viable chance of winning

thanks

[MadHound]

39. And thus, with your vote, you will be working towards

The rest of your fellow citizens, and the hopes of restoring this once great nation.

How in the hell do you expect real change, the kind of change that we all dream of and scream for, if we continue to do the same ol' same ol' that got us into this position to begin with? Sorry, that just doesn't fly. This is government of the people, by the people and for the people friend, high time the people started getting involved in it again. Just because somebody is a winner doesn't automatically make them a good person. Quite the contrary, some of the most evil people in history were wildly popular. Think about it.

By the by, love your morels, and am looking forward to mushroom season this year.

[MadHound]

37. How very telling that you call a government, responsive to the people

A dream. Very very telling, because once, back in the day, it was a reality. But yes, now alas, it is but a dream.

However we can make that dream a reality again if we start holding ALL of our elected reps accountable for their actions. We no longer have the power of the pocketbook, nor of the media, but we still have the power of the vote, and if we're going to come anywhere close to achieving that dream, we have to start using it. Is it going to be quick and easy, hell no, nothing worth fighting for ever is. But it is the only way we can start to return this country to its former greatness.

And if you continously settle for the lesser evil friend, soon it will grow into a greater evil. The little guy isn't getting a fair shake with either party for the past thirty years, why in the hell do you expect that to change now, especially if we continue to reward them with our vote? Settling for one evil over another simply begets more evil. If we want real change in this country, we have to stand up and fight, not settle. You may be willing to compromise with evil friend, but I'm certainly not. There is too much at stake, the lives of our soldiers, the lives of the Iraqis, the well being of our fellow citizens, the restoration of a once great nation. That is a dream worth fighting for friend, and it can't be done without holding every politician accountable. Yes, it will be a nasty ugly business, but most such things are. Time that we roll up our sleeves and get to work.

[madokie]

38. With all due respect, The point is to return our government

back to a dem majority so a 'green' can even have a chance. Hey bro' go ahead and vote green I could care less. I'm going to vote in '08 for the dem because he will be the only chance we have. sorry

[MadHound]

41. So, you will vote for anybody with a D behind their name?

Even if they're pro-war, pro-corporate, willing to ship YOUR job off shore, wreck our civil liberties, and pollute our land? What in the hell good will that do? Geez, open your eyes and look around you! The Dems talk a good talk, but when it comes down to the people vs corporations, the vast majority of them will side with their corporate masters everytime. And you want to vote for this simply so that you can say "We won"? Please, spare me that kind of victory any day, many more of those will kill us.

[madokie]

42. Yes but I don't see any of that happening.

Thats all republican
On the morels come down here and we'll go harvest some together, last year I didn't get to look, couldn't walk but the year before I found 140 or so in one day. If it doesn't rain won't be much of a chance though.
I have had good luck finding them after a place burns off so that is encouraging since we have been damned near burned to the ground the last couple months
peace

[MadHound]

43. But see, that isn't all Republican friend

Look who started the outsourcing mania, Clinton. Look who took away the collective media voice with the '96 Telecom Act, Clinton. Who ripped away a good chunk of the social security net with welfare "reform". Clinton. Who expanded the draconian War on Drugs, and speeded the erosion of our civil liberties. Clinton. And don't forget, he passed all of this with the help of Dems in Congress.

Since then we have all seen Democrats support the war, support the Patriot Act(both I and II), support the bankruptcy bill, support the appointment of insane AGs, Bolton, Roberts, and many others too numerous to mention.

Please, wake up friend. This isn't your grandfather's Democratic party. It has been taken over by the conservatives and corporatistas, and they are putting it to use to enrich themselves, and to destroy the rest of us. It is high time that we started holding them accountable, and our vote is the only big weapon we have left.

I do hope you folks get some rain, not just for the morel's sake, but to stop the burning. We're running fairly dry up here in Missouri too, and I'm wondering if we'll have any kind of mushroom harvest this year. :hi:

[AZBlue]

63. Yes and No

No - I will support, campaign for and vote for those who have the same ideals and priorities that I do.

Yes - when it comes down to the Presidential election in '08 for example and I have two choices: a D who matches some of my opinions but not all and an R who matches none and will continue the corruption in our government, I'll vote for the D.

Sometimes it's the "lesser of two evils." It shouldn't be and we need to keep working to eliminate that situation, but in the meantime that's the reality and we have to deal with it.

We can simultaneously work for change now and change in the future.

[MadHound]

66. And when you pull that lever for a pro war Democrat

Who shares some of your views, you will be condemning innocents to death. What is more important friend, stopping the killing, or sharing some views? I go for ending death every time.

And part of working for change is recognizing, and admitting that we have some problems. And holding accoutable those responsible for getting us into this situation.

[AZBlue]

72. I'm not a single issue voter.

Plus, you'd have to define what you mean by "pro-war" - it has different definitions, especially here on DU.

I have a very definite albeit minority view of the invasion (it's not a war, let's call it what it is) of Iraq but don't know that I will find any candidate that agrees with me on it.

[MadHound]

75. I'm not a single issue voter either, but I cannot in good conscience

Vote for somebody who is going to continue an illegal, immoral war. I'm sorry, but life is precious to me, and playing political games with life and death just shouldn't be done. I cannot have that kind of blood on my hands, can you?

[AZBlue]

77. Again, I can't comment either way.

Continue? Meaning we should withdraw tomorrow? Or we should stay but only to help rebuild what we tore down?

[Village Idiot]

This is what it has come down to.

If you vote Dem or Rep, you are contributing further to the Plutocracy - it's just that simple and that inevitable.

Candidates no longer represent their constituents - they represent the Party and their corporate masters, period.

Vote Green, Independent, Libertarian, ANYTHING other than CORPORATIST.

Of course, the problem with this is that the other 100 million people voting are all MORANS.

[madokie]

31. I just don't see how giving the presidency to another of bush's* cronys

is gonna help us in our plight.

[The Whiskey Priest]

34. Lay out the party platform of those you mentioned....

If they speak to the people the people will vote for them. You cannot be a fringe group and hope to govern...hope just puts you on the outside of the window looking in and carping about the way things are going.

[Inland]

47. What good is "winning"? How about letting us win, and we'll show you?

After all, what good would a Gore presidency have done?

He would have bugged us illegally.

He would have invaded Iraq.

He would have nominated Alito.

He would have given tax cuts to the rich.

He would have withdrawn from Kyoto.

He would have invited Jack Abramoff to the WH.

He would have had a K Street Project.

He would have

Oh, fuck it all.

Fact is, you want the dems to lose and you don't care what happens next. You think that if the world gets blown up that some more preferred race of humans is going to arise to make a third party. It's ridiculous.

[MadHound]

50. I've seen what happens when the Democrats win

I've seen the welfare "reform" that Clinton pushed through, and the misery it has caused the poor.

I've seen what the '96 Telecom Act has done, concentrating 95% of the media into the hands of six corporations, and the subsequent silencing of the left's voice.

I've seen what has happened when Cliton backed NAFTA throughout, and the subsequent enviromental devastation on the Tex-Mex border. I've also seen how well paying manufacturing jobs disappeared due to NAFTA and outsourcing.

I've seen what happens when Clinton enforced the sanctions on Iraq, backed up with thrice weekly bombing runs over that country. During the the years from '93-'00, 400,000 innocent men, women and children were killed because of these actions, more than has died during the Iraq war so far.

I've seen how Clinton racheted up the War on Drugs, and the following disappearance of our civil liberites.

Yes, I've seen all of this and more, when the Dems win, and sadly the rest of us, including the vast majority of those who voted for Clinton(myself included), wound up losers. Lost our well paying job, our social safety net, our media voice, and so very much more.

And you're wrong, I care very much what happens next, and that is one reason why I want to force real change and accountablity in the party that I have been a member of all my life. But if the Democrats refuse to change, what the hell good are they? If they continue to take us down the primrose path of plutocracy, corporate serfdom, and perpetual war, had can I, or any decent human being in good conscience continue to support them. Yes, I have and do support the Democratic party, but I put the good of this country, her people, and what is best for all of us above and beyond partisan politics. And if the Dems can't do what is right and good for this country, then they by all means deserve to be thrown on the dustbin of history and let a new, better party on the left take their place.

What are you going to do when faced with a choice between candidate A, a pro-war, pro-corporate Republican and candidate B, a pro-war, pro-corporate Democrat? A vote for either one is irresponsible friend, a choice that will leave blood on your own hands. Can you deal with that, can you really afford to carry that kind of karma?

It is all well and good to be loyal to your party, but when that party is out of control they either must be held accountable, or discarded altogether. Right now I'm for holding them accountable. And if they don't respond to that, then they deserve to be discarded altogether. This is our country, our government. It's about damn time we started acting like it and reign in these crony corporatistas in power, by any means neccessary.

[Inland]

54. And you aw what happens when Bush won. And you're cool with it.

I mean, anyone can list a parade of horribles on Clinton, and blow them up, but the fact is that Bush won because there's this rule, apparently, that voting in a manner that Bush gets elected doesn't invoke karmic consequences. Well, maybe it doesn't. It invokes real world consequences.

Your idea of holding parties accountable is to get republicans re elected. Too funny. Dems are imperfect, republicans are evil, and you work so hard to get the latter in. The dems get punished for not being perfect, and the republicans get rewarded. Of course, the real incentive is for dems to realize that people such as yourself can't be pleased and write you off completely. YOu see, if indeed the dems really are so craven and weak minded that we just sell out, then we sure as fuck are going to take the higher price of moderate positions.

But telling you that you are dooming the entire left side of the spectrum to failure won't faze you. Failure is not just your proof of moral rectitude, the equivalent of a political monastery, that no position is provided that would dirty you with popularity: its the hope. It's your preferred result.

Fact is, I think when you say "by any means necessary", you want more conservative domination. You think that another century of conservative domination will so screw things up that people will be ready for something truly radical along the lines of your preferred politics.

Oh, you probably actually believe that everyone involved in today's politics really is an irresponsible fiend, and therefore there's nothing to be lost by another eight, or eight hundred, years of conservative domination. It's all for the good in the end, right?

And like all radicals, you've got an agenda that you would rather not let on to. You think that republicans winning and making this country worse is a good thing. Anyone who agrees doesn't regret Nader in 2000 or the next debacle.

Yeah, don't sign me up. Another few hundred americans have died since we last had this conversation, and I'm not going to take the bet on a nirvana coming out of another day of republican ascendancy.

[MadHound]

56. LOL, you assume a lot of things friend, and you know what ass-u-me means?

Yeah, I thought you did. Your laughable attempt to lecture me on real world politics assumes that I'm sort of star struck naive leftist who just fell off the turnip truck. For your information, I've been working in Demcratic politics for well over thirty years, in all positions from the street to party delegate. I know all about the good, the bad and the ugly of real world politics friend, and don't need to be lectured to like a school child by your happy ass.

Secondly, you are assuming that the last two elections I've worked for Nader. I haven't, nor did I vote for the man despite my many misgivings about both Gore and Kerry. In fact I'm willing to stack the money, time and effort I put into both of those campaigns up against what you did during them any day, and dollars to doughnuts, I'm betting I'll come out ahead.

Third you're assuming that I want some sort of conservative domination in order to teach the Dems a lesson. I don't, and have never stated that I have. What I have stated is that I want to hold the Democratic party accountable for their actions, and if that means taking our votes to the Greens, so be it. And gee, if enough people did that, neither the Democrats nor the Republicans would win, but the Greens would. D'uh friend, what part of that says anything about conservative domination?

Fourth, I would suggest that you do some reading to correct your political ignorance, some Zinn, Chomsky and Palast are a good place to start. You think that I'm either making this shit up, or blowing it out of proportion, I'm not doing either, if anything, I'm downplaying things. Don't believe me, fine, prove me wrong, go do your research and PROVE ME WRONG. Prove that I'm lying in my statements above. I'll be waiting. But somehow I doubt that you'll do that.

And finally, you never have stated what you're going to do when you are faced with the Hobson's choice of two pro-war, pro-corporate candidates on the ballot. Will you vote for the Democrat and thus have the blood of innocents on your hands? Or will you do the responsible thing, and start holding our politicians accountable for their actions and stances?

And yes, a few hundred Americans have died since we started having this conversation. Thanks to Clinton ripping away a good part of the social safety net with his accursed welfare "reform". Think about it.

And just so you don't make another ass-u-me mistake friend, let me state right now, I don't, nor ever have supported Bushco and his minions. I do believe in holding them responsible for their actions also. But the reason I'm going off on the Dems is that I feel that they can do better, with a little prodding. The conservatives are a lost cause. Just thought I'd straighten that out for you before you blow another gasket.

[Inland]

60. Blowing a gasket, no. Following your logic and preferences to

their necessary conclusion, yes.

Sorry, but no amount of argument that Clinton did this or that changes the purpose of the argument, that is, to tell us that it doesn't make any difference whether Bush or a democrat is elected.

No amount of argument that not voting for democrats changes the fact that you are rewarding republicans and preventing them from being held responsible.

No amount of rhetoric about what to do when faced with a hypothetical hobson's choice changes teh fact that you, when faced with an actual choice between a democrat and a republican, are deciding to eschew the choice altogether and not help.

No amount of criticism of clinton for "ripping away the social net" is going to make anyone believe that it absolves one of not assisting in stopping republicans.

More generally, the tactic of bringing up hyperbole about how bad Clinton was in order to avoid teh simple fact that republicans are worse on every single level is pretty tiresome. I talk about war, and you talk about welfare reform, and if you were equating the two, that would be bad, but you aren't. You are just changing the subject rather than face where you are taking the country.

And of course, you are taking it there. You change the subject because you really do think that a few more years of republican dominance is going to bring about a huge radical change. It's not the first time that radicals have hoped that things get worse so they will get better, and it doesnt' matter whether you admit it or not.

The hope is the only thing that explains what would otherwise be a completely irrational position, that explains how a person could talk about heavy karma, holding people responsible, while not assisting in getting rid of republicans as hard as you are working to get rid of democrats. It allows you to say you don't want conservative dominance and that you are holding people responsible while undermining the effort to remove the irreponsible conservatives. Nader 2008, anyone?

As long as DU members know the price you are asking us to pay for your goal of a green resurgence. No thanks on my part.

[madokie]

62. No thanks on my part either. It is simple, we have to change the course

of this country so we can SAVE it, nothing more nothing less, we have to do it. Any dem will do at this point in time. Pretty fired up after watching our dem leader's on cspan just now. No green or other argument will be heard here.

[MadHound]

65. Any Dem?

Wow, how about Biden, Lieberman, or Miller. Answer me this, how are you going to change the country if your candidate is pro big business and pro war?

But since you're not open to any arguement, you're not open to any real answers. And thus, when you go into the voting booth to pull the lever for that pro corporate, pro war Democrat, the blood of innocents is going to be on your hands to, because you refuse to hold our party and its leaders accountable. Way to kill a bunch of innocent kids friend:eyes:

[madokie]

67. Yes if by chance they get there, voting for anything but a dem at this

point is only prolonging the agony, can't you see that. Most every one here agrees with you but we have to have a strategy, first we get dems back in the majority, without that nothing you say is relevant.

[MadHound]

69. OK, so you've got Lieberman in office

How are you going to change things? He's not going to end the war, he's not going to end his or the Democrat's cozy little corporate relationship, and at the slightest threat of disloyalty, Lieberman will bring out the spectre of Boooosh, booga, booga, do you really want this man back in charge? booga booga!

And meanwhile people will continue to be fed into the meatgrinder of an illegal, immoral war, the rich will continue to grow richer(granted, it will probably be at a slower rate since a nominal Dem is in office, but hey, you never know, look at how well the rich did under Clinton), the poor will continue to grow poorer, and when their quite limited time in the social safety net is up, they will start to die.

So tell me freind, in this scenario, how in the hell are you going to get the Democratic party to change one goddamn thing without holding them accountable via your vote? Time's running short friend, and we really do need an answer.

[madokie]

70. smoking joe ain't gonna' get there simple, neither is biden

or the others you stated earlier, ain't gonna' happen. The first step is to get control, nothing else matters, quit worrying about joe or joe.

[MadHound]

71. Oh please friend, you know that, I know that, we're just playing with

Hypotheticals here. Stop avoiding the questions. Tell you what, I'll even give a plausible scenario, if it will make you happy, What if pro war, pro corporate Hillary gets in? Again I ask, with the meatgrinder taking its bloody toll, with the rich sucking the poor dry, how are you going to change one single thing without holding Democrats accountable via the vote?

[madokie]

73. There is just not enough votes to secure a win so it is not in our best

interest at this point in time. we need regime change and now not 6 or 10 years down the road.
come we go hunt mushrooms
edited to add: peace

[MadHound]

74. OK friend, you're dancing around the crucial question

But hey, if you won't answer it for me, at least answer it, honestly, for yourself. It is a very important question to think through, and we need to come up with the solution soon, OK. So think it over, and get back to me. Say about the time when the mushrooms pop up:hi:

[MadHound]

64. Mighty big damn leap there

Going from my wishing to hold the Dems accountable for their actions, using the only power we the people have left, the vote, to your assumptions that I'm wishing for a green, or republican dominance. Please, point out to me in this thread where, exactly, that I stated the words you are trying to make mine.

And where, exactly, have you talked about the war. In fact the only talk about war that I see is the talk that I've brought up. Specifically I've asked you what you're going to do when faced with two candidates who are pro-war. Tellingly, you have avoided answering that question. Things that make you go hmmmmm.

Your arguements, your knowledge base, and your reasoning are all faulty, and it shows. It shows in how you try to shove words into my mouth, it shows in the tiresome rhetoric that you use, it shows in the assumptions you make about me for daring to question the principle of "Democrats right or wrong".

So, I suppose that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But please, at least do some research on the issue. Take off your rose colored glasses, look at what the Democratic party has done over the past thirty years. Take a cold hard look and answer me this; Judging from their actions, whose best interests does the Democratic party consistently work towards, we the people, or corporate America? Answer this question honestly, you don't have to tell me or anybody else, but please answer this question honestly to yourself. And then ask yourself the question I've been asking all thread long, Do the Democrats need to be held accountable for their actions, and how do we do so?

I think that if you're being honest with yourself the answer will suprise you.

[Inland]

76. Will you NEVER address the issue that matters to either of us?

Apparently not.

Really, you go right back to the assertions that the democratic party is bad without ever addressing that the republican party is much worse, you talk about holding the democratic party accountable by keeping it from defeating the party that is more responsible for just about everything, you bring up the hypothetical of identical dem and rep candidates while ignoring the reality of much different candidates....where you STILL won't vote for the dems.

It's predictable and evasive and only can be explained in two ways.

For example, do democrats need to be held accountable for war? Sure. By ensuring the election of republicans that backed it then, now and the next one too? It would be an idiotic conclusion to reach, and yet, you won't let go of it despite its apparent idiocy. Aside from lunacy, there's only other one possible explanation.

You are hiding an actual hope that things get a lot worse before they get better, that the dems are destroyed and we have a two party system with different parties.

Whether you admit it or not.

[jsamuel]

19. would you rather have a "less bad" person, a "good" person or a "great" 1

[madokie]

21. after this last one I would take anyone of the three.

[The Whiskey Priest]

24. Tom Coburn

Dr Tom, Dr Tom.....prime example of what you get if you dont take even the less bad person.

[madokie]

26. exactly

[Inland]

48. I want Jesus H. Christ himself, or I'll throw the election to the Repugs.

That's my moral choice. After all, as long as I uphold my personal purity,the results of my actions don't matter.

[jsamuel]

55. now who is being extremist here?

So someone who doesn't think we should go with "anyone but Bush" now will only accept Jesus H. Christ as president?

Slander...


Edit to add:

"results of my actions don't matter" --- of course the results of your actions matter... If you vote for Nader in Florida in 2000 or don't vote at all in Florida in 2000, then obviously your actions have had a great consequence. I am one of those people (didn't vote - was in my first year of college and was away from home). I feel EXTREMELY guilty for it too. In fact, that is probably the one of the biggest reasons why I have been so active since then.

I stayed up all night pulling for Gore. I watched the aol returns and saw them go from 20,000+ for Bush to 10,000 to 5,000 to 2,000. I was hoping and praying... I missed my classes the next day glued to the tv and computer. I felt like I was in the middle of a hurricane and didn't evacuate.

My actions (or inactions) have had serious consequences.

Other actions do as well... such as voting for people like Bush in the first place. If Republicans (or whatever party) had never voted for Bush in the primaries then we never would have got him. If the Democrats vote for someone who I think is like Bush in the primaries, then those actions also have consequences...

Not just the final vote.

[madokie]

57. .

:sarcasm:

[jsamuel]

59. I can do that too

:sarcasm:

[TahitiNut]

25. That's how the Republican Party became what it is today.

Just sayin'. :shrug:

[madokie]

28. Let me ask a question, who/what republican could you support

[The Whiskey Priest]

29. Are you asking if I would be a pall bearer for a Republican

the answer is yes.

[madokie]

30. rofl

[TahitiNut]

36. Bill Milliken, for one ... long, long before I'd support Ben Nelson or ...

... Zell Miller or ... or ... or ... or ... :shrug: Your question is totally irrelevant to my observation.

[Inland]

49. You mean, in charge of everything? Sign me up for some of that.

I can't imagine why a political party has to equate winning and unity with some sort of moral failing. Used to be a time that acceptable candidates actually winning elections was a sign of the system working in some small manner. Now winning is a mark of satan.

Does anyone still want to win elections, or have we joined the republicans and started to rethink the value of elections?

[TahitiNut]

58. All you do is make me happier I'm an anti-partisan independent.

Whenever principle and/or ethics takes a back seat to ANYTHING, I'll pass, thank you.

Anyone under the delusion that Lord Acton was only talking about 'them' (no matter who 'them' is) when he said "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is not someone I care to waste time attempting to reason with. That's just another flavor of "It can't happen here" Kool-Aid.

[Inland]

61. See? You assume winning means no principles.

You see winning as proof of a lack of principles and ethics.

When winning elections becomes a reason in itself to cricitize or causes a presumption of evil, I'd LIKE you to pass. Please don't infect a political party with such bizarre, anti democratic values.

[TahitiNut]

68. Reread the 'Original message' and climb off the high horse (or ass?).

You can take your own "bizarre, anti democratic values" and use 'em as a suppository for all I care. :shrug:

[Inland]

78. You make a comparison to the repubs, and I'M on a high horse?

Really, you can be really, really happy that you are a non-partisan independent, but you're the one with the attitude that what I want is morally suspect and similar to the republicans. Maybe the rest of us are tainted with being partisan, but if you don't want to be, then please go find a monastery. I've had about enough of the purity of losing.

[Bridget Burke]

44. I'm not flushing MY vote down a Green commode, either.

Some Democratic possibilities do not excite me--to be polite. I'll do what I can during primary season.

Certainly, some folks in the groovy all-Blue states will cast their votes for unattainable perfection. A form of performance art! They know there are enough Democrats in their state to make up the difference. Perhaps.

Not in Texas. (Or Baja Oklahoma!)

[madokie]

45. At this point in time we need to return the dem's to the majority

for our country's sake, until we do we can't have anything. I like the idea of a green party as such but right now we have too much to loose. Any dem over any other right now.

I have more trust for someone who is a dem.

[w8liftinglady]

51. Job one-get the dems in majority-then we can argue semantics.