Aren't BOTH Jews and Arabs Semetic peoples hated by Western racists?

[benburch]

Seems to me they ought to find more common cause than differences as a result of this?

[porphyrian]

1. Uh oh, sanity. This thread'll drop like a rock...

But, yeah, you're right.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Not really.

There might be Jewish anti-Semitism in the West, but it's pretty well muted by the fact that we give Israel far more aid than any other country.

[Cassandra]

4. For many, it's not for love of Jews but...

desiring the Rapture. Plenty of people hate Jews in this country, on both sides of the political spectrum. There are those on the left who hate Israel because they identify with the Palestinians as the downtrodden. Some hate Jews here, most don't. There are those on the right who love Israel because they can kick the asses of the despised Arabs, but for them the only good Jew is a converted Jew.
Listening to Washington Journal the last week has really been puke-inducing.

[oberliner]

28. This is a lie

We give Egpypt about the same amount of aid we give Israel.

We give Iraq 4 times as much aid as both Israel and Egypt put together.

Jewish anti-Semitism is not muted in the West.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. Funny, you have no source

But I do: http://shelby.senate.gov/legislation/ForeignAid.pdf

Israel - $2.58B
Egypt - $1.84B

Since when does a $740 million disparity become "about the same amount"? For comparison's sake, outside of Afghanistan (which shouldn't really qualify simply because we are fighting a war there, for the same reason that your Iraq comparison is woefully ridiculous), $740 million is more than we give to any other single country. But, you know, that's nothing. :sarcasm:

So before you call someone a liar, it'd be best to have facts. Otherwise, you just look like the most ignorant poster on DU.

On edit: To back up my claim that Afghanistan shouldn't be there, take a look at the FY05 figures.

[oberliner]

41. your source proves my point

You know that 740 million dollars when dealing with a foreign aid budget of around 25 billion dollars represents a difference of about 3%.

Israel is receiving 3% more of the total foreign aid budget than Egypt. Is that "far more aid" ?

Seems like "about the same amount" would be a much more apt description.

BTW, the lie I was referring to is your claim that "Antisemitism has been pretty much muted in the West"

It comes through loud and clear.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Yes, it is far more aid

Why do you ask?

[noamnety]

54. according to the CIA factbook

There are 78,887,007 people in Egypt, 6,352,117 people in Israel.

So that works out to $23.32 per Egyptian, $406.16 per Israeli. Or $1,848.41 per sq. km. in Egypt, $126,906.05 per sq. km. in Israel. About the same amount.

(Carry on, I'm just doing some late night compulsive calculating.)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

65. ....

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Your ignorance is not worth my time. Have a nice life.

[Spinoza]

76. Good point.

Certainly we give Israel substantially more aid than Egypt. What about Egypt PLUS Jordan? (Jordan is about .5 illion annually. I'll let you do the math.) What about Egypt PLUS Jordan PLUS aid to the PA from the Oslo accord to the recent election of Hamas? (About $100 million annually) Hmmm. it seems like U.S. aid to Israel is nearly the same combined U.S. aid to middle eastern Arab states. But those are just facts. (Don't ask me to cite sources for aid to Jordan and the PA. You can easily google it.)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

77. Highly disingenous.

You're lumping an entire region's aid vs. that of one states? Fine, if you want to do that, no other country could possibly even come close to matching on a dollar-for-dollar basis the aid all other countries in a region receive the way Israel does. Furthermore, on a per capita basis, Israel absolutely annihilates every other recipient of U.S. foreign aid. Your "facts" are manipulated and flawed, putting it nicely.

[Crunchy Frog]

43. Egypt gets less than Israel with a population 10 times greater.

Most of the "aid" we're giving Iraq is in the form of bombs being dropped on their cities. The rest of it is the normal obligations associated with maintaining a large scale occupation. I'm sure we were giving Vietnam lots of "aid" at one time also. I doubt very much that you would want Israel to get that kind of "aid".

Also, isn't the aid that we're giving Egypt pretty much intended as a bribe to get them to maintain peace with Israel? I doubt that we're giving the aid just because we are so fond of Egyptians.

[bryant69]

3. Racism is a kind of a boogie man

Nobody wants to look at it too closely for fear of being infected by it; even saying this much will have some people feeling uncomfortable.

Racism, as reprensible as it is, comes in all the varieties of intellectual thought, from the most simplistic to a certain amount of complexity.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Ignoramus]

5. Judaism is a religion

A secular jew may or may not be semitic.

Western racists probably hold various beliefs.

[Cassandra]

9. How is a secular Jew not Semitic?

A convert may not be Semitic but is unlikely to be secular.

[Ignoramus]

14. A secular jew could be non-semitic

But, I'm not jewish and I'm interested to know if someone thinks I'm wrong.

My reasoning is, you can convert to judaism as a non-semitic person. Aren't you then jewish? Say, then your great-great-great-great-great-great grandson abandons judaism. Are they a secular non-semitic jew?

[Cassandra]

16. Theoretically but...

a convert would normally be converting to marry a Semitic (and observant) Jew, so even a 6x great grandson would be somewhat Semitic, in terms of their DNA.

[AlienGirl]

25. Conversion isn't necessarily for the purpose of marriage

[Karenina]

18. This is DUMB

The Ashkenazis, imported from Europe and Russia are NOT SEMITES.

Jewish is as Jewish does. And by this I mean the incredible code of ethics, understanding, scholarship and mysticism that has been handed down through the ages. The Israeli NEOCONS betray us ALL.

[Cassandra]

29. Of course Ashkenazis are Semites.

Where do you think they came from in the first place? Or do you think a bunch of Christians in Europe just spontaneously converted and became a hated minority just for the fun of it? (I expect your answer to intrigue me when I get back later this evening).

[cracksquirrel]

35. SHHH!

Don't bring logic into this! It ruins all the fun! And by fun I mean: :banghead:

[adriennui]

36. what confuses this issue

is that many jews have light skin and blue eyes. i don't understand it except perhaps intermarriage in north and eastern europe mixed things up a bit.
i've heard that in spain and portugal no one can be entirely sure there wasn't a mix back in the 1400's. many conversos and "marrannos" practiced judaism in secret.


however, i've noticed on the really vile WN(stormfront, KKK, etc.) threads, jews are hated more than arabs.

[porphyrian]

37. You're right. Jews originated in the region, but then came the Diaspora.

There are even some Ethiopians who are Semites because of this.

[rman]

59. Also, in Africa there are 'negro' Jews;

clearly not of the semetic race, but Jewish by faith nontheless.

[HongKonger]

80. And in...

And in... Iran there are Persian Jews.

There are also Jews in India and perhaps China.

http://www.haruth.com/AsianIndia.html
http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/china.htm

[Karenina]

45. You'll be disappointed

as the tone of your post guides me to leave you to your own devices.

[Cassandra]

62. Sorry you didn't want to respond.

I agree with you about the neocons, though. Both the Israeli's and ours seem likely to get us all killed.

[mom cat]

79. Check out Arthur Koestler's book The Thirteenth Tribe.

Very interesting research.

[Cassandra]

81. Here's some DNA research...

http://www.cohen-levi.org/
" The research was basd on samples from 29 populations, 7 Jewish, categorized into five major divisons: Jews, Middle-Eastern non-Jews, Europeans, North Africans, and sub-Saharan Africans.

The findings were that most Jewish communities, long separated from one another in Europe, North Africa, the Near East and the Arabian peninsula do indeed seem to be genetically similar and closely related to one another, sharing a common geographical origin.

These Jewish communities are more closely related to each other and to other Middle Eastern Semitic populations – Palestinians, Syrians, and Druze, than to their neighboring non-Jewish populations in the Diaspora.

The results also indicate a low level of admixture (intermarriage, conversion, rape, etc.) into the gene pool of these various Jewish communities.
<snip>
Although the Ashkenazi (European) community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups, originating in the Middle East.

A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.

The Ashkenazi paternal gene pool does not appear to be similar to that of present-day Turkish speakers. This finding opposes the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century C.E."

Koestler put foward his theory for some good reasons of his own but there's no scientific evidence that he was right.

[mom cat]

82. Thanks for the information. I stand corrected.

[Odin2005]

33. The Ashkenazim are of mixed Mid-Eastern/Western German ancestry.

The term "semetic" has no meaning regarding ancestry, in is a lingusitic-cultural term, not a term for a population (for example, the Iraqi Arabs are semites yet are more similar genetically to Iranians, which are an Indo-European culture, then they are to Saudis) Jews settled allong the Rhine river during the Dark Ages and there was some intermarrying with the native German population (Jewish law says that you only have to have a Jewish mother to be a Jew). During the latter middle ages percescution forced the Ashkenazim to migrate to Eastern Europe.

Also, "Jewish" has two seprate meanings depending on if you are taliing about religion or ethnicity.

[rman]

57. The confusing thing about it is that the term "semetic" can mean either

It can be 'lingusitic-cultural' but it is also a biological/race term.

[rman]

56. A religious Jew may or may not be semetic

Just look at all the Russian (white) Jews - those are Jews by faith only.

And a semetic Jew may or may not be religious - those are Jews by race only.

[Cassandra]

61. As a Russian (and mostly secular) Jew, I beg to differ.

I am certainly descended from Jews who left Israel/Palestine/whatever centuries ago, making their way from the Northern Mediterranean coast, up through middle Europe and France, Germany and Poland. My paternal grandmother's last name was Franck (or Frank), indicating that her family had come through France a bit before people started using last names, in the 1700's. She, herself, was born in Minsk. Jews were a very insular population and if they were in a large enough group, intermarriage would be the exception rather than the rule. I am more genetically related to Palestinians than I am to Russians or other Europeans or Turks or whoever. Ethiopian Jews, BTW were shown to be Jews genetically. Obviously they had intermarried with the local population, as had Chinese Jews, but they were originally Semitic, not spontaneous converts.
Where did you come by the notion that Russian Jews are converts?

[GrpCaptMandrake]

6. I referred to Semites as being both Arab and Jew

on another thread the other day and was told I was "intellectually dishonest." Er, um, OK. "Good luck with all that," y'know?

Sheesh!

[Ravenseye]

12. some Jews don't like it when Arabs share the appelation

In fairness the term anti-semite was coined and really used pretty specifically to mean anti-jew for a long time. It's sort of picking nits to lump in Arabs to that (and the ASsyrians...don't forget the Assyrians) but I do it.

Semite comes from Shem, the son of Noah who I guess, I don't know...uh...sat on a boat and then got off and had lots of kids apparently...and his descendants are us. The Arabs and Jews (and Assyrians).

I've used the term and had Jews like that I called myself a Semite as it brought us closer together, and I"ve had people hate it and practically snarl at me. Meh.

Way I see it we used to get along, we can again in the future...

[GrpCaptMandrake]

52. That's kind of the thing, isn't it?

If you want to get along, most of the time, you will. If you don't, you won't.

[Dhalgren]

7. You're right. The attitude of the west toward Semitic peoples

of all kinds has always been in a range from outright political murder (various pogroms and, of course, the Holocaust) to paternalistic coercion. The fact that the west (US) has a favorite couple of Semitic peoples means nothing; the West could change their "favorites" without missing a beat...

[walldude]

8. I've often wondered why there is such hatred between

the blacks and the Jews. They seem to have much in common as well. I came to the conclusion that the whole racism thing is really part of the class war. There are good and bad people of every stripe but it is the ruling class that keeps us at each others throats, because if we all actually joined forces, found the common ground, and worked together, the elite class would be fucked.

On edit: Thanks for adding Will Durst to White Rose Ben, he's one of my favorites...

[porphyrian]

13. There isn't as much as you may think.

In fact, they've been closely involved in everything from entertainment to the Civil Rights Movement. Don't let a few Farrakhan and gangsta rapper comments convince you otherwise.

[benburch]

17. You are most welcome!

Tell your friends?

[walldude]

20. Yeah... both of them... hehe

It's tough being a liberal in a conservative industry...

[Ravenseye]

10. I've taken that position

I keep telling all my jewish and arab friends that we need to stop fighting each other. It's the white man who is creating all this dissention among us through lies and propoganda causing us to fight each other, for their whims.

Jew and Arab need to unite realizing that WE ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE! We, Jew and Arab, are the children of Abraham. We must stop this senseless bickering, and realize who our true enemy is. The western white devil. He's made us kill each other for decades, nay, centuries, in order to better keep us down.

Did you know that Baghdad had public street lighting when London was a mud village and Manhattan lushly forested?

Did you know that the oldest known city in the world lies within Israel.

Semitic Peoples Unite! Fight the true oppressor!

:sarcasm: kinda...

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

15. What

an amazing piece of filth. Just what did you find so "incredibly interesting" about it?

This has about every ugly antisemitic slur in the book in it. Of all the crap I've seen posted on DU, this has to be the worst.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

19. Tosh. There is no evidence of anti-semitic ideas being propagated by

parts of the left.

[cali]

21. i take it you're being sarcastic

but I gotta say, I clicked the link and i've never seen anything quite like that site.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

30. Of course

It's depressing as hell to see shit like that on here. Thankfully it is limited, but I've come across enough of it - on DU, on the internet left & in real life - to know that it is a growing problem.

[rman]

83. There's far more anti-semitism among the new-right / neo-fascists

than there is on the left.
Wrt anti-semitism on DU, there are many claims but little if no evidence. People refer to deleted posts, but i for one do see my fair share of posts that later get deleted and none of those is anti-Semitic.

[cali]

84. Denial

is not a good thing. Particularly when the evidence is literally right under your nose.

[rman]

85. show me the evidence

[cali]

86. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1704735

[rman]

90. That's not evidence, it's you quoting supposed evidence

Though i don't think you're just making it all up, i think not all of those comments are in fact anti-semitic. Ie there's no denying strong Israeli influence on US policies - it's a fact worth noting, as is would be equally noteworthy if there'd be such strong influence on US policies by Muslim nations.

Also i think it does not contradict my claim that those kinds of comments are made by a small minority on DU. Moreover, overt anti-semitic comments are clearly not tolerated by a majority on DU. The people who make those comments are not representative of DU; it's not "DU" making those comments, but a small minority of people who post on DU. It's your drawing attention to it that makes it a bigger issue than it is.

Do you still not agree that there's far more anti-semitism among the new-right/neo-fascists than there is on the left?

[cali]

91. That you could

think that any of those comments are acceptable says it all. They certainly were all anti-semitic, and though it's a minority of DUers, it's a significant minority. I have no idea whether or not there's far more antisemitism amoung the new right/neo fascists than on the left; I don't travel in those circles. I'm more concerned with the views amoung the left, because those are the circles I travel in.

[benburch]

31. I think I agree with you.

Unless somebody has posted the Protocols.

[cali]

32. and although this is the worst

crap i've seen, it doesn't lack for company.

[mcscajun]

22. The entire article is a piece of racist delusional crap.

What's so "interesting" about it?

[AlienGirl]

23. That work is a piece of incredible bullshit

You're smarter than to fall for this.

Tucker

[Ravenseye]

24. Gimme a Break

Seriously? You found this interesting? Claiming that pretty much every Jew (80% anyway) knows they're not really Jews and lie about it deliberately?

Yeah they're doing a real slap bang job on dominating europe, what with the holocaust and all.

Give me a freaking break.

[EFerrari]

26. I recently had a DU light bulb experience.

During the "illegal immigrant" flame wars, I started using "ignore". Because I'd get so mad, I knew I was going to lose it altogether if I didn't. Okay, I thank the admins for that feature.

Well, since then, whether reading threads on the Gretna bridge incident during Katrina or now reading the threads on this latest, I notice that I can only read 4/5s of the thread.

Houston, we have a problem.

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

27. Sociopaths hate for whatever 'reason' is convenient.

People seeking to obtain 'populist' support or divide the people in order to aggregate power to themselves will often supply the 'reason.'

[arwalden]

46. Best Subject Line I've Read All Day!!

:thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

51. Thanks .. but ... I sure hope you have some better days, then.

:silly: :hi:

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

44. Probably Some Kind Of Heirarchical Thing

they hate Jews first and foremost

then they hate Arabs and everyone else after that

[raysr]

47. I can't figure out the

RW support for Isreal, we know they're fascists, skinheads KKK, anti-semtic to the core. So why?

[benburch]

49. Because Israel has to exist before the Second Coming can happen.

They are USING the Zionists to facilitate the eschaton their mythology promises.

[Cassandra]

64. I think the RW also admires the Mossad and the IDF.

They like the kick-ass reputation; it gives them a vicarious thrill. Before the last few years, I used to think of both of them being wielded more as a scalpel than a bludgeon, but that is no longer the case.

[Cleita]

48. I often wondered why they love their Bible but hate the

descendents of the writers.

[Rex]

50. If they were smart, they would gang up against the rest of the world.

Just think of the combined works of Jews and Arabs, one word - huge. In some ways the beginning of eastern/western civilization is due to these two groups. If only they could stop killing each other and realize both are losing the next generation to hate and intolerance.

I personally would be scared of an Israeli/UAE alliance. Israel knows how to make the best military hardware on the planet and the UAE has endless supplies of oil and equipment to trade for the end product. It has the interest of the US, Russia, Europe, China and a few other very large and powerful nations. The region could easily dominate the world.

It's kinda like when China decided to embrace capitalism (sans democracy), scary shit folks.

[samsingh]

53. yes

[Spider Jerusalem]

55. The word 'anti-Semitic' refers SPECIFICALLY to hatred of Jews.

It ALWAYS HAS. It is at best ignorant and at worst intellectually dishonest to suggest that it can refer to hatred of Arabs. That's just a bit like saying that 'anti-American' can refer to hatred of Canadians or Mexicans; technically correct, but practically nothing more than nonsense.

[rman]

58. But that doesn't mean that Arabs of the region do not

belong to the semetic race. The term semetic has a double meaning.

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. But the term 'anti-Semitic' does NOT.

Contrary to what is implied (though not explicitly said) in the OP.

[benburch]

67. BULLSHIT.

I never said NOR implied that.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Spider Jerusalem]

68. You most certainly DID imply it.

Quote: 'Aren't both Jews and Arabs Semitic peoples...?'


The implication is clear and obvious; if it was unintended, then your wording was very unfortunate.

[benburch]

69. Measuring my words here...

Yes, both are racially hated semitic peoples. That is a FACT. Moreover, both are people of the Torah. They ought to seek for their common cause, not for their differences, differences that I believe are intentionally fanned by their common enemies. But I never once said or implied that "Anti-Semetic" had any use other than in reference to Jews.

I know what I said and my word choice was both careful and correct.

I will thank you to NEVER put words in my mouth again.

EVER.

[Spider Jerusalem]

71. Then perhaps you should learn to scan what you write more carefully.

The implication was there, wherther or not you realise it (note that I did admit it may have been unintended); you seem to have a singularly hard time admitting that your choice of words may have been ill-considered, and a singularly graceless manner of arguing the point (NB: I didn't 'put words in your mouth'; again, the interpretation is a very easy one to make, based upon your wording).

[benburch]

72. Perhaps you ought to learn how to assume goodwill on the part of others?

And perhaps you ought to learn to not read things into people's words and words into people's writing that are not there?

:mad:

[cali]

63. There is no semitic race

It's a language group.

[Cassandra]

66. There are genetic markers...

that can be traced through Semitic groups.

[benburch]

70. And an undoubted history as documented by both text...

...and archeology.

[Meshuga]

89. You are right

The word 'anti-Semitic' refers specifically to hatred toward Jews. It does not apply to hatred toward Arabs.

Link to dictionary definitions of antisemitism:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/antisemitism


Link to dictionary definitions of anti-Semitic:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=anti-Semitic

[AngryAmish]

73. You seem to think racism is a western concept.

It is not. It is worldwide, endemic problem. Find out how Japanese folk treat Koreans. Or Chinese/Hmong. Rwanda - could the vast slaughter of a people considered different be considered racism maybe?

[benburch]

74. No, but racism against jews and arabs IS a Western concept.

I don't think that Samoans share it...

Hence my qualification.

[AngryAmish]

75. Fair enough

But Persians and Turks also hate them. Cheers.

[NuttyFluffers]

87. as did the chinese, i came to find out

but this was more 'anti-foreigner' sentiment than anything, in particular from the way the mongols rubbed their domination of the chinese in their faces by favoring foreigners over them in everything. so the backlash ended up hating persians, arabs, and jews as well as mongols at the fall of the yuan dynasty.

racism is a common phenomenon, as is pretty much any -ism. doesn't make it right though. :D

[HongKonger]

78. True

Very True.

[NuttyFluffers]

88. ;) -ists of all stripes generally hate everyone not them...

so, in a sense, all of us people who are well in the head and do not hate all over the place have common cause.

but yes, a little mutual love would be nice. i'm sure some of them realize they are being used as pawns by post-colonial western powers (in particular the -ists pulling the strings behind the scene; a.k.a. RW :) ), but apparently there's enough powermad few who think they can get away with enough to justify dancing the razor edge of 'divided we fall.'