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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:20 AM
Original message
Fundies Inside The Gates
There's an ugly split on the Left these days. Some of us are called "Anti-Semite" because we hate war and refuse to support Israel's hell-on-earth bombing of innocents in Lebanon. Some of us are called "Zionist stooges" because we support Israel's right to exist. Some of us, like me, are called "delusional" because we think there is a better way; a way that leads to peace and security for all involved.

What is most obvious, however, is that the whole world aches for a leader. Here in the U.S., that ache takes the form of wishing we had a statesman in the White House instead of what appears to be a do-less imbecile who chews with his mouth open, has the vocabulary of a drunken sailor and gropes German Chancellors.

Some "experts" explain away this do-less-ness as a function of Bush's blind, "Zionist" support for Israel. Some see it as a Rovian machination to take the focus off the bloody meat-grinder that is Iraq. Some see it as a means of driving Iran and Syria into such a frenzy they'll provide causus belli for an expansion of Bush's mid-East mayhem.

In seeking the reasons for the profound lack of leadership displayed by the Bush Administration during this horror in Lebanon and Israel, most analysts are ignoring the 900 pound gorilla in the room: radical American Religion Industry Fundamentalism. I'm not and I won't.

Being a Recovering Southern Baptist (TM) myself, I can report to you from the belly of the Beast.

This administration is controlled by a Radical Fundamentalist Christianity more dangerous by far than any Iranian mullah. That fundamentalism is manifested in the words of Falwell, of Dobson, of Robertson, of D. James Kennedy and a host of other Generals in the so-called culture wars. This is no conspiracy theory. Control of the government of the United States has been the stated goal of the Fundamentalist Radicals for quite some time now. And now they've got the bit in their teeth and they're going at a full gallop.

Remember when Dobson tried to quell conservative fears about Harriet Miers' competence by saying he had the inside skinny on how she'd rule? Remember when General Jerry Boykin blithely announced that the U.S. is in a holy war against Islam? Remember when George W. Bush gladly accepted the advice of the Southern Baptist Convention that Jesus wanted him to invade Iraq? These are all manifestations of the profound control that Radical Fundamentalist Christianity now has over the White House.

All of these power-mad men demand that George Bush now take a step back and allow unfettered carnage to be the order of the day in the Levant because they hold to a belief system that says Jesus will return when things get "hot" enough in the Middle East to fulfill their twisted reading of "prophecy."

George Bush, in turn, lets them know he's on their side when he says Jesus is his favorite philosopher; when he says there won't be any history, that "we'll all be dead."

Among other things, the Fundies cite the "Parable of the Fig Tree" (Matthew, Chapter 24, vv. 32-34) to put a date on the so-called "End Times."

"Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near- at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."

In current apocalyptic Radical Fundamentalist Christianity, that parable stands in for the 1948 establishment of the State of Israel. "Summer" is the time when Jesus is supposed to get in his Holy Rolls and come zooming back to earth "on the clouds of heaven" (v. 30).

There's a heap of other stuff in Chapter 24 that shows what Jesus was talking about. Scholars differ. Some say he was describing the impending doom of Jerusalem that followed only a few decades later when Titus, sick of the bickering and warfare, simply leveled Jerusalem. Others think these words may have been put in Jesus' mouth after the fact by an author who wanted to show that Jesus was the Real Deal.

But that's all far too easy for the Fundies. They have to turn these words into a prophecy that suits their taste for blood and mayhem. They have to apply it to the Now. That started in the mid-19th century with an English Theologian named Darby.

The latest manifestation of this apocalyptic business started in the 1950s, after the formation of Israel, however, as "Hooo, boy! He'll be here any minute!" When that didn't happen, the apocalypticists changed it to "He'll be here in a generation." (See above) The generation passed. Still no Jesus.

Meanwhile, Hal Lindsey was making a fortune predicting the imminent demise of the world with books like "The Late Great Planet Earth" and "The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon."

And you must surely respond "Yeah, yeah, Kincaid. So what?"

"So what," indeed! So let me, raised in that fetid Fundie Southern Baptist stew, clue you mainstream Episcopals and Catholics and Lutherans and Presbyterians and Jews and Muslims and Atheists and Agnostics who go about your business and never cast a glance toward the weird fringes of Christianity into the 4-1-1 of what the Fundies have in store for you if they aren't stopped.

Let me tell you, in no uncertain terms, that the Fundies dream of, nay, yearn for, a day when the suffering of humanity will make the depredations and horrors of the Second World War look like a day at the amusement park; for they ache to see a day when all of humanity will be tormented in a "Great Tribulation," at the end of which Christ will return (again; note: that makes twice he will have returned. Go figure) and "every knee shall bow" to Him, as I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church.

Now here's the fun part. In Apocalyptic Fundamentalism, it goes without saying that not every knee shall bow. And by "bow to Him," the Fundies mean "believe like we believe." Guess what happens to those who don't!

The Fundies get to put them to the sword! That's right! (Game Show Announcer Voice) "A BRAND.NEW.HOLOCAUST!" 'Cause Jesus v.2.1 (Beta) tells them to! Somewhere. In the Bible. Someplace. In a prophecy. It's really rather enigmatic. Only the Fundies have the magic power to discern the meaning. But He said it! They know because they believe it. I'm not kidding.

Doubt me? Have a thumb-through of Tim LaHaye's literally God-awful "Left Behind" series. While it's put out there as "fiction," millions and millions of American Fundies have read it as gospel. And in it, getting to kill the unbelievers is some of the biggest fun. After all, "gospel" means "good news." And to them, getting to do a whole boatload of wanton murder is "good news."

After all, they've even released a video game for children called "Left Behind." In it, you're a soldier for Jesus who goes around a post-apocalypse New York City killing homosexuals, Jews, Muslims and various other sorts of "unbelievers."

This, then, is why George Bush is standing back and allowing the slaughter to mount up both in Israel and Lebanon. This is why the United States, instead of counseling peace, ramped up production of fresh bombs for Israel. This is why the Fundies over at www.raptureready.com are vibrating like struck tuning forks.

But don't believe me. Go and Google "Christian Reconstructionists" and "Christian Dominionists." Read LaHaye. Read Lindsey. Spend as long as you can watching the Trinity Broadcasting Network without throwing up. Read the beliefs of these Fundie sects in their own words. They'll tell you: after Jesus comes back, they get to start killing Jews. It's cold comfort that they also get to start killing everyone else who doesn't believe like they do. It's the Jews, though, that they're really excited about killing.

A long, long time ago, a pretty young girl tried to tell an aging king about the dangers of accepting things at face value.

These Fundies aren't on auto-pilot. They're actively pursuing a course of action that they fervently believe will literally end the world. They dread any peacemaker as "the Antichrist," their Boogeyman of the Apocalypse. They are sharpening their swords: for you, for me and for all those we hold dear.

I know this is difficult to comprehend. But it's real. It's real enough it should turn your bowels to water just thinking about it.

But it probably won't. I understand.

That pretty little girl I mentioned a couple of paragraphs back? Her name was Cassandra. Priam was the king. Troy was their home. And their whole world came to an end because no one heard when she warned of the perils of hollow horsecraft.

The Trojan Horse that is Fundamentalist Christianity isn't sitting out on the beach. It's already inside the Capitol gates. And most of us on the Left are sitting around wondering why it makes that hollow sound when we thump it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. Rapture Ready is great entertainment!
Those people are so delusional it is funny.
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
68. It is, isn't it?
The first time I ever saw that website, I was sure it was a parody until I started poking around in there a little bit and realized that those posters are real and that they truly believe they're going to go floating up, butt-nekkid, into the arms of Jesus. Any day now.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. Right on target.
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B3Nut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R - ya nailed the head on the hit.
This thinking is the result, largely, of Dispensationalist theology, dreamed up in the addled little head of one John Nelson Darby. Oddly, most of the Dominionsists hold Dispensationalism in low esteem, many of them being Reformed in their theology to varying degrees (like D. James Kennedy), but political expediency is the rule of the day here. Most Christian Reconstructionists are actually postmillenial, believing that they need to set up God's kingdom or at least lay the groundwork...they completely miss what Jesus taught - "the kingdom of God is within you." Sad that the rest of us have to pay the price for their inability to grasp what is plainly told to them.

But you're right - we ignore these people at our, and the nation's - indeed the world's - peril.

Todd in Beerbratistan
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thanks, Todd!
I just wish we could get more folks to see how crazy, evil, mean and dangerous these people are.

-Bob
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astonamous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
70. I see it...thanks for the post. Most informative and entertaining. n/t
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TripeOmatic Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
73. It has little to do with what Jesus taught. It has to do with stupidity.
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 11:58 PM by TripeOmatic
While it may be true that the very existence of religions depends on mass stupidity, if Jesus or Christianity or any other particular religion never existed, there would still be stupidity of the sort we like to attribute to religion(s). Stupidity came first, religions simply feed on that fact.
 
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
 
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DUgosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. Great post
You explained the core philospy well as I remember it from my early years in the fundy church. I remember frantic fund raising to rebuild the temple so the beast can sit and rule from it. It was so illogical it was impossible to stay in that atomosphere if one had enough sense to think thing through. ( a + b = c elementary stuff ) Leaving it cost me two sisters who have disowned me because of my questioning ways. I am so much better off. I only wish they could be free too.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you
and congratulations on your recovery from Fundamentalism!

My favorite part of the "re-build the Temple" hooey is the Fundie Sect in Israel that's working night and day to genetically modify a "perfect red heifer" in order to fulfill prophecy and provide the necessary sacrifice for the Temple consecration. These people are in league with other folks who want to kill them.

It's just amazing, really.
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DUgosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I forgot about the red heifer!
I've got a solid red heifer out in the field right now. It was born on Easter. I wonder if I can sell it on ebay. "Pick up only"
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. Jayzusss, no!
They'll kill you for it! I'm sure they've got some prophecy somewhere that says "Yea, verily, the heifer shall be found in the land of heat and will be guarded by a Lone Star, and they shall smite they the Guardian of the Lone Star and save the heifer from Iniquity."

'Cuz you know they would!
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DUgosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Groan
You're right again, you are on a roll today. How quickly I have forgotten how "they" think.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
58. Call it what you will
but "thinking" ain't what they do. They "believe" and pass it off for thought. That's what makes 'em dangerous.
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TripeOmatic Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
75. Heck, I've got a red heifer living next door - "Pick up only"
Does that count?
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MamaBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. Like the stem cell research veto
I'll just bet that one didn't come from the scienific community.

Scary, scary, scary.

K&R anyway.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Nope
The stem cell veto came straight from the Fundamentalist Eugenics Program (a/k/a the "Snowflake Baby" program) There had to be some pre-selection in order to make sure all those snowflakes were white, didn't there?
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
86. Black people who can't have children adopt
They don't go through this IVF horseshit. And that's what the Snowflake Babies program is: it's IVF, and it's horseshit.

Yeah, we got 400,000 precious pre-zygote babies sitting in liquid nitrogen at IVF clinics all over the world. (Of course, if you were to thaw out the whole batch and implant them in fundies right now, you'd be looking at maybe 40,000 live births...but that's okay, one of them might grow up to cure cancer. I'd much prefer that one of them would grow up to cure Republicanism or fundamentalism, but that's just me.) All those precious blastocysts came from white parents and you know none of them are the result of sleeping with the plumber in exchange for a new water heater, so they're all going to be white.

White fundamentalists who can't have children figure it's their moral duty to adopt a can of Snowflake Babies to help cut down on the number of blastocysts who don't get to see a sunset, who don't get to pet a pony, who don't get to go to church like a good little fundie...

Black fundamentalists who can't have children figure it's their moral duty to adopt a child who's already been born, to help cut down on the number of children who don't have a mom or a dad to tuck them in at night.
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Alexodin Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. I believe you. I know what you are saying is true. Cassandra
indeed. I have thought for some time now that there is a vacuum of power at the top. We have an incompetent clown for a figure head president. What happens when a real tyrant comes along to claim the crown? What happens when a real Hitler Stalin Mao sees the seat of power occupied by an imbecilic fool? I have only recently begun to think that this person may be Rev Moon, maybe not but its a thought.

As to the Christian right and the Zionists who is using whom? I see the Whitehouse divided, under W** we have the Fundamentalist Christians, under Cheney we have the PNAC Zionists. I believe the PNAC is playing the Christian right for suckers. I'll probably be wrongly accused of being an anti-semite for that last crack but I refuse to close my eyes and stick my head in the sand. The PNAC has many affiliations with Israel and the Christian right has many affiliations with Rev Moon.

I consider both the PNAC and Christian fundamentalism domestic enemies of the Constitution.

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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. Surprised you mentioned Darby! When I asked several of my SBC
co-workers about him, none had a clue that it was he who 'invented' the Rapture in 1840 something. They really believe they are a part of 'traditional' Christian teachings. I said, so everything Jesus taught was forgotten over 2000 years and replaced with Darby's insanity?
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. "Modern" Fundamentalism
should more rightly be called "Darbyism." Granted, there's a lot of end times mumbo-jumbo in the Bible, but in most cases, the prophecies came true shortly after they were uttered. As I noted, Titus brought the End Times on 70 CE. John's Revelation dealth with an era when followers of "The Way" were getting impaled on fenceposts, dipped in oil and being used for streetlights on the Appian Way.

That kind of misery often feels like the end of the world. And for many, it is.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. Since the 1500s and Francisco Ribera's Jesuits
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 11:36 AM by EVDebs
See Post #19 and

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
11. Rapture Ready
Thanks for the link. Certainly some interesting stuff. This guy in charge seems to be in the United States Air Force (the irony that GrpCaptMandrake is the O.P. is not lost here!) and must have plenty of time and energy to devote to this site. Interesting that he lists Ronald Reagan as a candidate for the Antichrist.

He'd like your donation of $100 per month. So would I.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Did you make it to the message boards there?
That's where the real fun starts!

Unfortnately, they took down some of the better posts. But they still made it into last week's "Top 10 Conservative Idiots."

-Bob
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I think some of them have been posted
here.

This guy is a bigger wacko than your little buddy, General Ripper.

But then again, maybe he's hit on a great idea for surviving the Bush Administration. Set up a nice website for the credulous to donate to.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. You trademarked it!
What about all of us other recovering Southern Baptists (I've been recovering since I was eighteen. I'm really better now)? Can we share your trademark as we have also come from the belly of the beast?
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. You may use the phrase freely
for an annual "love offering."

Hey! I'm still recovering! I haven't lost it all yet! :rofl:

:hi:
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
69. That's great ! LOL
I'm fully recovered, with one exception. I still occasionally worry that they are actually right about their stupid rapture fantasies, and as you know, the rhetoric is that once you've been saved, you are always saved. I'm worried I'll wake up one day and find I've been raptured and am stuck for all eternity with those creatures.
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RadiDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. Superb! Thanks
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
18. Nail. Head. Bang.

They pretty much fall into two camps:

Active cheerleaders of mayhem and war to hasten the return of Christ, and those who are not so active, but pleased with the results obtained by the nutjobs.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. Misinterpretation of scripture ... deliberate since the 1500s
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 11:33 AM by EVDebs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=215343

A battle of Freemasons (read Knights Templar) vs. Knights of Malta (read Knights Hospitaller) ongoing since 1307 until around 1948 with the creation of the state of Israel. Since then KOM has dominated ideologically. Now even Catholics, since Freemasonry's revolutionary aspects have been attenuated with "advanced degrees" from 4th to 32nd and the escatology is now secure, can become Freemasons without fear of excommunication.

This isn't your granpappy's Freemasons anymore.

Besides, Their Will Be Done shows that the KOM now control the CIA's upper eschelons and have since its founding

Their Will Be Done by Martin A. Lee, from motherjones magazine's archives
www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Reminds me
of the Death Cults that followed in the wake of the Black Plague

But yeah, they've been at it for a long while. The pig just gets a fresh coat of lipstick every now and then.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
21. Yup, the fundies are a scary breed.
I've been saying for a long time myself that men like James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson are a far greater threat to America than anything Osama could even DREAM of. These men are dangerous, and they will stop at nothing to get what they want.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. If a liberal
suggested, as Dobson did, that a grown man expose himself to his son in the shower, why, we'd never hear the end of it! Savage and Hannity and O'Reilly would inveigh every day against the "North American Shower Boy Love Associaition."

They would, they would!

But since Dobson's a "christian," he can advocate all kinds of sick stuff, like beating children "until they cry real tears," and the nation says "Aw, isn't that Christlike!"

Ewwwwwww! :puke:
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. Yup, the infalliability of the Xtian right is what scares me
And even non-Christian republicans. They see the government as infalliable as long as there's a republican-controlled goverment. I mean look at how viciously they tried to attack Clinton for everything he did, and he's been out of office for six years and he still gets blamed for stuff that this government has done. It scares the shit out of me, to be honest. These people are sheep, with absolutely no thoughts of their own.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
22. These people are scary ass crazy
I don't know how we get around them, They're a minority, a very vocal and at present time very powerful minority. They are no better than fundies everywhere, punishing the majority, bending reality to fit their vision,
How do we remove this cancer? it's going to be painful, we can't start throwing bombs into fudie gatherings, though I suspect it's going to come down to something like that.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. It starts with awareness
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 11:36 AM by GrpCaptMandrake
That's what I was getting at.

The other night on my show, a guy said "Well, I just can't believe there really are people like that." Such was the genesis of my little essay.

There really are people like that, and they're in charge.

After awareness, the next step is confrontation. They must be openly challenged, refuted, scorned and marginalized. Not violently, but intellectually and honestly.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
25. Thank you!!! I've been trying to say the same thing
without success and you did so very very eloquently.

A lot of people in Blue states think you are making this stuff up or are exaggerating the Fundie stuff.

I live in a bright Red state and I can tell you, you are NOT making this stuff and you are NOT exaggerating. If anything, you are describing the fundie craze in less alarming terms than they deserve.

These people are batshit crazy and they vote like crazy and their guy is in the WH, on supreme court and fill the halls of congress. We have been taken over by fundies, whose aims are carefully hidden by the MSM.

Thanks again for a great post, and yes, the fundies on all sides will be what brings back the next Dark Ages, which we are rapidly approaching

Recommended
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Thank you
It is incredibly important that those of us who live near this Fundie hate expose them to our "normal" friends in states where they might not be so pervasive.

This isn't a "fringe group." It's a full-on, blood-in-the-eyes coup.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
26. Great read
You summed it up tidily, there GrpCaptMandrake.

These people are the progeny of those who stood in the public squares begging for hangings and beheadings and lynchings. They love blood. They love cries of anguish. They practically orgasm when they imagine sinners burning in HELL forever.

I have no clue what their bloodlust has to do with Jesus, but somehow they see the connection.

It's a miserable mess, to think that such lower life forms claim the divine right to rule and judge.

We have a call to shame them out of their murderous ways.

:applause:
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Precisely!
"We have a call to shame them out of their murderous ways."

And when we do, we need to be prepared to hear them wail "Oh, Jayzussss, we're bein' persetuted, er, prosemuted, er, prostituted,, um, they're bein' mean to us!"

At that point, we'll need to remind them that challenging their hate doesn't constitute persecution. We need to let them know that getting caught with too many items in the Express Lane at their local Wal-Mart isn't quite the same as being ripped limb-from-limb by a wild animal in the Circus Maximus.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. And don't forget YuricaReport.com ...
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. That's a great resource n/t
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
33. Great Post! I had alarm bells going off in my head when * started
amping up his Christian B.S. after he was elected. The minute I heard some of his crap, my gut reaction was bad, really bad! :puke:

And another thing; whenever I see Robertson or any of those other assholes preach, I am totally turned off by them! Not a one of em is mesmerizing to me, but rather they strike me as nasty pompous old fools! I can't turn the channel fast enough! I don't understand how they can get anyone to follow them! :wtf:

Now if it were Robert Redford preaching the gospel, I might be more easily swayed. ;)
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Yes
Sorta like I could convert to Martian Shamanism if Scarlett Johannson or Charlize Theron was preaching it. :evilgrin:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
61. I picked Redford because he is older and wiser...
but someone young and cute like Colin Farrell or Orlando Bloom would certainly get me to listen...!

:evilgrin:
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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #33
83. Redford preaches something much closer to the true Gospel than
the CEO's of the current Religious Industry have ever come close to understanding. Not only talks about it, but acts on it in his everyday life too.
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. Dead on! You are so, so, right!
Thank for posting. I am a recovering Fundamentalist, and I see it the way you're calling it!
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thank you mandrake!
As another recovering fundamentalist Baptist from West Virginia (where are you from, BTW?), I know the truth of what you speak. Too long mainstream Christians and others have ignored these groups or dismissed them as fringe radicals, to the peril of this nation. I have conversations like this with my husband -- an atheist from Seattle who attended a progressive Catholic school -- all the time. Mark Crispin Miller's book "Fooled Again" apparently (it's still on my to-read shelf) discusses the plans of the religious right for a theocracy and their plans for making it happen courtesy of their friends at Diebold.

:applause:
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. I'm from Fayette County
Not too far from Fayetteville, and about 50 miles east of Charleston.

That's where we have the home studios of the Head-On Radio Network (H.O.R.N.) We're the only southern-based liberal talk network. We're at www.headonradionetwork.com

What part of the Mountain State did you call home?
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Monongah
About 5 miles away from Fairmont.

Thanks for the post about HORN. I'm actually moving to New England soon, and it's good to know that sort of thing is available online. I'll be sure to send a link to my friends still in WV.

Montani semper liberi!
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. Thanks!


Monongah. It was a word I heard for the first time right after the Sago disaster.

Heck, please feel free to send to tell all your friends about the H.O.R.N. We're a global network with a southern twang! And we're greatful for all the help we can get spreading the word about our existence.

And a hearty "O, the hills, the beautiful hills" right back at ya! :)
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
39. The ONLY way to defeat fundamentalist christianity is to end all religion.
The religious right will never be defeated until the ideas of a bible, religion and god are defeated. The bible is crap. If god exists, he can prove it by setting me on fire - right now damnit! Religion is for weak minds.

You are correct about all the clueless catholics, protestants, etc. They'll never defeat the religious right because they can't get past the main premises of christianity. Most of them had religion drilled into their little 5 year old heads.

BTW - god has still not set me on fire. He is either chicken sh*t or doesn't exist.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Or he might be highly ironic
Waiting to set you on fire at the worst possible moment, like at a gas station next to a school bus full of orphans. He's good at that kind of thing! :rofl:
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. He'd wait for a different bus, like one headed to the titty bar
God doesn't kill orphans, that's for some of those who think they are following God.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Of course, there's that line
in Deuteronomy or somewhere that says "Stone disobedient children." Mean dude, that God.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. I'm with ya
These people are fanatics. They're dangerous and they are a threat not only to world peace but also to civil peace. If they get what they want, they will murder us all. But if they don't get what they want, they're likely to take things into their own hands and murder us all. People keep trying to dismiss them as delusional-which they are-but seem to forget that powerful delusional people are threats. David Berkowitz was delusional too, and look what he did. Picture 4 or 5 million David Berkowitzes running around all at once.
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
44. But do our leaders REALLY believe it?
I agree that Christian Fundamentalism is scary. But do you really believe Bush, Rove and the rest of this country's leaders genuinely believe it?

I don't buy it. I think they're apeing fundamentalism to scam votes. They do showy things, like beat up on gays and play around with anti-abortion, but genuine belief? That's for the rubes.

And a few of the Fundamentalists are starting to realize it. Bush has been unwilling to take the steps they want to see, like declaring Jesus Christ the King of America, or branding all gays on the forehead with triangles and the numbers 666 before burning them at the stake. They're starting to sound like they want to take their votes home and sit out the next election.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Actually, Bush is marching lockstep with their dogma
His actions with regard to Israel at present are straight out of End Times mythology. Israel has to be ganged up on with no one but the U.S. to defend her. Fed Ex-ing the latest bomb shipment to Israel was a nice indicia.

Bush doesn't have to declare Jesus King of America. It's not part of the script. And they can't start tatooing gays, liberals, secular humanists, Catholics, Episcopals, et al until a few more "prophecies" are fulfilled.

Bush believes it. Rove is a notorious Fundie. It's what makes them such bloodthirsty monsters.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
81. Self delete - put in wrong place
Edited on Tue Jul-25-06 09:49 AM by Time for change
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #44
82. I agree with you
I don't know it for a fact, but I think it's naive to believe that there isn't a great deal of political calculation going on. Rove is a political animal, and so is much of the rest of Bush Co. There is an unholy alliance between the fundies and those that are simply in search of wealth an power.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
48. Lord, send them rattlesnakes and copperheads and let Pat and
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 01:44 PM by Hubert Flottz
Jerry sort it all out! Let them use trumpets instead of F-16s and US made 155-mm sp howitzers. Throw them all in the lion's den and let them drink posion from a mason jar and dance to a holy rock and roll combo from someplace on high, if that's their thang, but leave me and mine alone. Bush, BTW, does speechify in those hither to unknown, undecipherable, vernaculars, about every time I see him get up in front of the cameras, to lie to us again and again and again.

Your reference to the Book of Matthew, Chapter 24, made me think of Matthew, Chapter 24, verse 24...

24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

These false prophets of today, that have the people fooled into submission already, can't "show great signs and wonders" and they still fool the very elect. The Sheeple want to be fooled and the wolves know it!




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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
50. Great Essay! nt
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
51. Rapture Ready: Doesn't Bush get it?






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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
52. If you want to hear more from this author...
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 02:20 PM by benburch
...you can catch his show, "Head On with Bob Kincaid" every weekday from 7pm-10pm ET on the Head On Radio Network, http://www.headonradionetwork.com/
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B3Nut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #52
80. Okay, now I *know* he's cool :-)
I click on the H.O.R.N. link, and up comes a pic of an Ampex 440 2-track. Instant cool points. :D

I used to hang out at a studio that ran 440's, up to a 1" 8-track (later replaced by a 2" 16-track). Incredible sounding tape machines, huge, warm, and gooey sounding. :)

Todd in Beerbratistan
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
53. I find it odd that Michael Ledeen has written on this subject
Here's an article written by, of all people, Michael Ledeen and his wife, Barbara, discussing Christian and Jewish fundamentalists. In light of your post, thought you might be interested in it. I have read that Ledeen and his wife are/were involved in the Temple Mount movement (I cannot confirm this with a decent source). Given the neocon manifesto that 'is' Ledeen, are they true believers or stirring things up to manipulate the masses through religiosity?

Personally, I find this all very interesting, and equally frightening. I know Michael Ledeen has written extensively about Machiavelli, Nationalism and Fascism. I realize that Machiavellian philosophy advocates using religion to control the masses. What's going on here? Who's using who (whom?)?


A CASUAL OBSERVER might be excused for believing that nearly all of the recent violence in Israel has been part of the usual cycle of Arab-Israeli conflict. The observer would be wrong. Though some of the recent acts ... seem to be the work of extremist Israeli nationalists, much of the destructive intent is fueled by a mixture of nationalist politics, messianic longing, and the search for roots. In fact, some of the current extremism is a direct outgrowth of the ancient forecast of the Apocalypse... The targets of the most spectacular incidents over the past months have been Muslim authorities and the area they control in Jerusalem, but for the most part the people who planned or participated in the attacks are the violent fringe of an informal movement that stretches from the United States to the Middle East, and encompasses millions of evangelical Christians as well as some Israeli Jews. This unlikely coalition rests upon a common belief that the Final Days are upon us. For the Christians, this means that the Second Coming of Christ is imminent; for the Jews, the Messiah is about to arrive. Both believe that the crucial spot for the fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, because that is where the Temple of Solomon is to be rebuilt. According to the fundamentalist understanding of Christian prophecy, three great events are required for the Second Coming: Israel must be a Jewish nation; Jerusalem must be a Jewish city; and the Temple must be rebuilt. Today only the third condition remains to be met. Though most Jews believe that the building of the Temple will occur after the arrival of the Messiah, a growing number of deeply religious Jews believe that efforts to rebuild the Temple, and other steps for its proper functioning, should be made before the Messianic Age.

~snip~

On March 10, 1983, more than forty Jews suspected of planning to penetrate the Temple Mount were arrested in Jerusalem. ... Their legal fees--amounting to $50,000--were paid by wealthy Christian evangelicals from Texas. Less than a year later, only last January 27, Israeli security forces thwarted an assault on the Mount ... There is good reason to believe that the money for this group, the so-called Lifta Band, also came from Christian sources in America ... the suspects began to be cooperative only after an Israel officer had "scolded them for using a Bible published by a Christian group as their religious source." ... At the Temple Mount the religious passions of the Muslim, Christian, and Jewish religions intersect as at no other on earth. Not only is the Mount the site of Solomon's Temple, it is also where Abraham came to sacrifice his son Isaac; where Jesus taught, and threw the money-changers out of the Temple; from where Mohammed ascended through the seven Heavens into the presence of Allah... Except for a few years during the Crusades, the Temple Mount has been under Muslim control since the conquest of Jerusalem almost fourteen hundred years ago... Political pragmatism, however, is unlikely to withstand the messianic passions that are directed at the Temple Mount... The Israeli courts have generally denied the right of Jews to pray on the Temple Mount, but there are signs of change there, too. ... The driving force behind the Temple Mount movement, however, is the American evangelical community, some 45.5 million strong. The evangelicals met regularly with former Prime minister Menachem Begin over the years, reportedly urging him to rebuild the Temple, and they raced to Washington this spring to endorse the proposal to move the American Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, citing Biblical prophecies of the day in the near future when Jerusalem will become the capital of the world. ... The most visible link between the evangelicals and the drive to rebuild the Temple is found in the Jerusalem Temple Foundation in Los Angeles, the latest of several organizations (and the only such group in the United States) designed to put pressure on the Israeli government to limit the Waqf's control over the Temple Mount. The chairman and executive director of this ecumenical foundation are Terry Risenhoover and Douglas Krieger, two Christian evangelicals who have the means, the energy, and the network of friends necessary to catalyze a mass movement (Risenhoover is a multimillionaire, owner of a company called Alaska Land Leasing that is currently planning searches for oil in Judea and Samaria). ... ... Deloach's senior pastor at the Second Baptist Church in Houston (the switchboard operator answers calls by saying, "The amazing second"), H. Edwin Young, is likely to be the next president of the 13 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, America's largest Protestant body. Both pastors accompany groups to Israel and take them to the Temple Mount and to the Jewish yeshivahs training priests for the Temple. Deloach is candid about his objectives: "We will do whatever is right and politically expedient to make that Temple Mount free for all three religions." ...

~snip~

Some of the members of these committees, yeshivahs, and groups are simply interested in the historical or scientific aspects of the Temple Mount. But many--and their number is growing--are working for a Jewish presence on the Mount, and eventually the rebuilding of the Temple. Some of these people are highly orthodox, and firmly believe that the Messiah will soon arrive. Others are primarily Israeli nationalists, who view Muslim control of the Temple Mount as an insult to the Zionist Dream. But in the end the religious and nationalistic themes are hard to distinguish from each other, and the effect is the same: Waqf control over the Temple Mount is being challenged. ...BY FAR the most dynamic of the challengers is the Israeli section of the Jerusalem Temple Foundation, headed by Stanley Goldfoot, a South African Jew who came to Israel in the '30s and fought in the Stern Gang during the postwar period. A passionate nationalist, a highly skilled rhetorician, and a man of demonstrated activism, Goldfoot believes that the Temple Mount belongs to Israel, and to Israel alone. ... Goldfoot sees the Christians as logical allies, for he believes that "Christian fundamentalists are the real modern-day Zionists"; in Goldfoot's view, it is the christians above all who realize that "we are coming to a crucial period in earth's history, and they want to help fulfill prophecy and thus hasten the coming of the Messiah." ...It is thus not so surprising that those who planned to sabotage the Temple Mount in January carried Christian versions of the Old Testament, for the Temple Mount movement is based on a messianic vision that, at least in its first stages, is common to both Jewish and Christian religions. To be sure, there is a basic disagreement, but it is one that will only be resolved in the Final Days. As one Jewish leader put it to us last summer in Jerusalem, "They believe that once the Temple is built, Jesus will come again. We expect the Messiah to come for the first time. Let's build the Temple, and see what he looks like."

~snip~

Historically, messianic movements tend to be strongest in periods of intense internal turmoil and external threat. Both of these elements are present in contemporary Israel, and the Israelis' anxieties are largely shared by the American "Christian Zionists." All we know about the Temple Mount suggests that it will grow in interest and become a source of conflict, with international consequences that are hard to predict. Up until the arrests of the twenty-five extremists, the Israeli government either ignored the Temple Mount movement or attempted to co-opt it, but neither approach was successful. It remains to be seen whether the arrests will dampen the ardor of the zealots. With the redemption of mankind and the fulfillment of prophecy at stake, arrests are transformed into temporary setbacks, extremism becomes righteous action, and political considerations pale into such insignificance that even conservative Christians and radical Jewish nationalists can become allies.


Source Citation: Ledeen, Michael, and Barbara Ledeen. "The Temple Mount plot: what do Christian and Jewish fundamentalists have in common?." The New Republic 190 (June 18, 1984): 20(4). It is from Lexis-Nexis so I have no link.

Also of interest is that Barbara Ledeen is an aide to Rick Santorum and does seem to be involved in creating alliances:


Conservative Christians and Orthodox Jews “are just a natural alliance,” said Barbara Ledeen, an aide to Santorum at the Senate Republican Conference.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=13926


COURTING THE COMMUNITY:
Jewish defections irk Dems (Alexander Bolton, 3/30/04, The Hill)

“On the GOP side they’ve been very aggressive in courting the community,” said Nathan Diament, director of public policy at the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations. “The point person on the Senate side is Rick Santorum. Over the past two or three years they’ve been working the community and having a lot of meetings.”

Diament said Barbara Ledeen, the director of coalitions for the Senate Republican Conference, initiated the efforts.

Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.), who is Jewish, has also been active. He has traveled around the country “stumping in Jewish venues trying to convey a sense of why Republicans are more deserving of support,” said Diament.



http://www.thehill.com/news/033004/jewish.aspx


On a final note, off subject but equally as interesting, Barbara Ledeen, apparently may have been responsible for Santorum and Hoekstra's WMD in Iraq claim a short while back:

It's also worth pointing out that a couple weeks back, I was told by a Republican Hill source with direct knowledge that the person who originally brought the "non-governmental source" with the recent "WMD in Iraq" claims to Hoekstra's attention was Barbara Ledeen, the director of coalitions at the National Republican Senatorial committee, headed by Sen. Santorum; calls to Santorum's office inquiring about that were not returned. (The strange thing is, when I spoke to Gaubatz after learning this, he said he had written Hoekstra independently, and first spoken to him by telephone on a conference call that was held in Weldon's office. He couldn't recall Barbara Ledeen at all. Which perhaps bolsters evidence that there's another source on the claims in the mix. Perhaps this fellow, former FBI translator William Tierney, who handed off some tapes to Hoekstra?) I suspect the trail to this whole saga runs through the people behind the "Intelligence Summit" chaired by John Loftus earlier this year, in which Loftus presented Gaubatz's and Tierney's claims as a major find. Several US government-connected people reportedly dropped out of the conference at the last minute, reportedly under the orders of DNI Negroponte, with whom Hoekstra seems to have a continuing gripe. Previous incarnations of the Intel summit have included Barbara Ledeen's husband on the advisory board...



http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/2006_07.html

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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Fascinating!
I well remember conversations among adults walking out of church to the effect of "Those poor Jews. Why won't they learn?" And hearing "God needs to make an example of them."

Woe is us.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. That needs it's own thread. Important stuff.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. What do you make of Ledeen's piece, Joanne98?
And, of Ledeen's wife's position working with Santorum? I wasn't aware of it until just recently.
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Az_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
55. when Condi arrived in Beirut...
she called the conflict “Birth Pangs of a New Middle East”. Sounded like code words from the rapture ready crowd.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Sure is!
"The NEW Jerusalem." Streets paved with gold. Pearly gates. The works.

They're criminally insane.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
59. It's not just government
The fundies intend to take over all branches of government and all social institutions.

I've been documenting and combatting this for years.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Thanks for fighting them
It is nothing short of a wholesale elimination of our government as we now know it. These people have more in common with the fundamentalist Wahabis than they do with the teachings of Christ or any other "holy" figure.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
62. Everything she says is true. In fact it's worse.
We will have to fight them someday.......For real. Start getting ready now.
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LunaSea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
64. kay&are!
Nice post!
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Pathwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
65. Kicking this because it is so very important.
:kick:
:dem:
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Thank you
It's easy to not treat these murderous cretins with the seriousness they deserve. On first blush, they're laughable; but when you realize they really mean to destroy the world, it gets a whole lot creepy.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
71. What an excellent summation of our very own alQueda...
...our very own American Taliban, our very own dangerous religious extremeists. Unfortunately too, they've taken over our government and our country and are driving us (and the entire planet) fullspeed to complete destruction. The terrorists are in the White House.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. They have their own "whole entire parallel universe..."
Here's an article that was posted on DU yesterday. It is worth repeating here, and, unfortunately, confirms your comments. What this woman writes about is absolutely frightening:

"I don't want to be alarmist, but this is actually quite alarming," Michelle Goldberg said. She was referring to the subject of her new book, "Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism," which chronicles the steady rise of the neocons of Christianity.

~snip~

Traveling around the country on her book tour, Goldberg notes that many people have approached her with stories that illustrate the religious intolerance that is the hallmark of an aggressive Christian movement.

~snip~

Michelle Goldberg: I've done reporting on the subject for a long time. One of the first pieces I did on the Christian right was on the ex-gay movement. What struck me going to the Exodus Conference was that it takes place in this whole entire parallel universe. They have their own psychologists, psychological institutions and their own version of professional medical literature. The amount of books, magazines and media, and the way it almost duplicated everything that we have in our so-called reality, is remarkable. What struck me years later when I was reporting on the Bush administration was that the parallel institutions that I had first come into contact with were replacing the mainstream institutions -- especially in the federal bureaucracy.


Roychoudhuri: Can you give an example?

Goldberg: In the Department of Health and Human Services, the people they hired to formulate sex education policy, at both the national and international level, didn't come from the American Medical Association or the big medical schools. They're coming from places like the Medical Institute for Sexual Health, which is this Christian Nationalist medical group.

One of the earlier stories I did for Salon was on the UNFPA (United Nations Population Fund) which does family planning, but they don't do abortion, mostly safe childcare and reproductive health through clinics all over the world. Congress had appropriated $35 million to the UNFPA. There's this group called the Population Research Institute -- another one of these parallel institutions. They're radically anti-family planning and claim that population control policies are part of this "one-world conspiracy" to cull the population of the faithful so that the "one-world government" can more easily assert its control. On the website it said that not only is overpopulation a myth, but all the people on Earth could live comfortably in the state of Texas. I did this story in 2002. I still had this naïve idea that this kind of thing would remain marginal.


Cont'd: http://www.alternet.org/story/38830
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. And in the Senate
And in the House

And in the Supreme Court

And in the Embassies

And in the Governor's Mansions

And in the Legislatures

And in the Mayors' offices

And in the Probate Courts

And on your Police Department

And your Fire Department

And your School Board

If you would contest them, you must contest them eveywhere they are.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
76. The American Taliban
Ready, willing and able--to commit genocide.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
77. Here's a group that is attacking the "the faith of good Christians "
The Institute on Religion and Democracy Funded By Far Right Political Groups

The Institute on Religion and Democracy (IRD), the organization that recently released a report charging mainline churches of anti-Semitism for their advocacy efforts lifting up justice issues in the Middle East, turns out to be a political group that receives funding from some of the most far-right political extremists in the country.

The charge of anti-Semitism was carried by the mainstream media in publications like The Washington Post and US News and World Report. But do Americans fully understand the political nature of the IRD? It doesn't appear that the media does.

The Rev. Andrew Weaver writes in an article on the University of Chicago Divinity School web site that:

The political right-wing, operating in the guise of a gaggle of so-called "renewal groups," particularly one named the Institute on Religion and Democracy (IRD), has acquired the money and political will to target three mainline American denominations: The United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church USA, and the Episcopal Church. The IRD was created and is sustained by money from right-wing foundations and has spent millions of dollars over 20 years attacking mainline denominations. The IRD's conservative social-policy goals include increasing military spending and foreign interventions, opposing environmental protection efforts, and eliminating social welfare programs.


~snip~

A more complete list of IRD's political backers can be found here.

The Right Web has information on their site that exposes ties between IRD and right-wing groups like Concerned Women for America, "Project for the New American Century (PNAC), Institute on Religion and Public Life (IRPL), Ethics and Public Policy Center (EPPC), and American Enterprise Institute (AEI), as well as links to the conservative publications First Things, Christianity Today, and The Weekly Standard."

http://chuckcurrie.blogs.com/chuck_currie/2004/10/update_the_inst.html

Here's an excerpt of IRD's Mission Statement:

The Institute on Religion and Democracy is an ecumenical alliance of U.S. Christians working to reform their churches’ social witness, in accord with biblical and historic Christian teachings, thereby contributing to the renewal of democratic society at home and abroad.

Our Commitments: To Historic Christian Teachings and to Democracy

The Institute on Religion and Democracy is founded upon a recognition of the lordship of Christ over all of life. Our work is undergirded by biblical faith and fidelity to the ancient ecumenical creeds of the Church. We encourage greater unity among all Christians across denominational lines.

~snip~

Needed: A Reformation of U.S. Churches

Even today, the triumph of democracy is far from assured. In our own society, cultural trends are sapping the virtues and institutions of “civil society” necessary for democratic life. These worrisome trends include an extreme emphasis on the autonomous individual, the elevation of rights over responsibilities, a hostility toward definitive moral standards, an excessive dependence upon the state to solve all problems, and the cultivation of divisive identity politics. Perhaps the most serious threat to American democracy comes from the fragmentation of the family, the building block of society.

Nor is democracy in a good state abroad...

~snip~

Never has there been a greater need for strong churches, as a crucial component of civil society. America and the world require a fresh impetus of Christian evangelization, transforming both individuals and cultures. Yet tragically, important segments of the American church are spiraling into deep decline as they retreat from this task. Particularly in the historic “mainline” Protestant denominations, but also in other churches, many leaders and institutions have lost their focus on the Gospel, the basis of their existence. They have turned toward political agendas mandated neither by Scripture nor by Christian tradition. They have thrown themselves into multiple, often leftist crusades – radical forms of feminism, environmentalism, pacifism, multi-culturalism, revolutionary socialism, sexual liberation and so forth.


Cont'd: http://www.ird-renew.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKVLfMVIsG&b=356299

Here are some familiar names on their Boards:

Board of Directors:

Mrs. Roberta Green Ahmanson, Chairman, Pattee Enterprises
Mr. Fred Barnes, Editor, The Weekly Standard
Dr. J. Budziszewski, Professor, University of Texas at Austin
Mrs. Mary Ellen Bork, Writer & Speaker (also listed as an Officer)
Mr. Michael Novak, George Frederick Jewett Scholar, American Enterprise Institute
The Rev. Richard J. Neuhaus, The Institute on Religion and Public Life
Mr. George Weigel, Senior Fellow, Ethics and Public Policy Center

Board of Advisors

Dr. Hillel G. Fradkin, Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute
Mr. James Kushiner, Executive Director, Touchstone Magazine
Ms. Frederica Mathewes-Green, columnist for Beliefnet.com and National Review Online
Mr. Michael Medved, syndicated talk-show host

Cont'd here:
http://www.ird-renew.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKVLfMVIsG&b=356301



We're in deep doo doo, folks!
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
78. Have you seen the Rapture Letters?
No, not the one at http://www.raptureletters.com

but the ones at http://www.raptureready.com/leftbehind/rr-left-behind.html

Apparently these folks are all required to write a letter telling their loved ones that they've been raptured. And some of them are written by people who are certifiable.

This is what confuses me, and perhaps someone who really understands Rapture Theology can help me break this out. All the letters that get e-mailed right after the Rapture happens (or some hacker with an extremely broad sense of humor breaks into one of the rapturists' websites and resets the system clock to a time which would trigger the sending of all those rapture letters--not that I would ever suggest someone do such a heinous thing) say that if you immediately get down on your knees and pray the sinner's prayer you won't be there when the devil unleashes his firestorm upon earth. But rapture theology as I understand it says that when the Rapture hits, only the people who are rapturable, right now, get to go and everyone else gets to contend with the firestorm. Now which is it? Do you have to believe there's going to be a rapture before it happens and start going to church now...or can you wait until the rapture before you start praying?
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. In their theology, there will be two Second Comings.
First will be the Rapture, in which the faithful get a free "Get out of pain and suffering" card. After that, the suffering will begin--and the OP is right that they are really sick about just how bad it will be. After that and a few more signs, etc., there will be the official Second Coming, and anyone who's become a Christian in the meantime will be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven, too.

It's weird, I know.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #78
87. Your post and question reminds me of the movie
Edited on Tue Jul-25-06 04:14 PM by Emit
'The Rapture', with Mimi Rogers, where the notion of one being allowed to redeem their faith is explored. It's a very interesting movie, but I won't say more than that because I hate spoilers.

Honestly, I have no idea -- I do know that there are many variations on the end time beliefs from what I've read and from those I know who hold these beliefs.

edit typo
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
79. Anyone ever see that Simpson's episode...
where Homer thinks he predicted the end of the world. Hilarious.
Hey now, I've said it before...when the Catholic Church seems like the voice of reason in the mess that people have made Christianity, I secretly feel proud that I was raised Catholic.
Until the Vatican starts freaking out I think we're all okay. And I'm guessing that isn't happening any time soon, considering Pope B-man has issued several calls for cease-fire. Doesn't exactly sound like someone trying to usher in the Four Horsemen.
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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. I remember one Simpson's episode
where Homer exclaims something like "It's the Rapture! Hide the boy!"

To us reasonable people, people who would believe such obvious flim-flammery are alomst comic.

Until, that is, we realize just what they mean to do.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
85. Many evangelicals are in this, too.
Their official theology is against Dominionism and all, but many believers and preachers are more in line with Darby than anything else.

It's really scary. I went to an evangelical college, and I had friends who really believed this stuff. It was hard to know them and not be super-freaked out at the same time. I remember one religion major, a cool guy normally, went off before class started one day about how Al Gore was the anti-Christ, which was why no one could vote for Clinton--he had the most amazing conspiracy theory I've ever heard, before or since. His eyes were crazy, and he went on and on until the prof shut him up with some Scripture about how we don't know the hour or day.

You're completely right about how powerful these people are. It's very scary.
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