NYTimes Editors: Spying on Ordinary Americans

[understandinglife]

January 18, 2006
Editorial
Spying on Ordinary Americans

In times of extreme fear, American leaders have sometimes scrapped civil liberties in the name of civil protection. It's only later that the country can see that the choice was a false one and that citizens' rights were sacrificed to carry out extreme measures that were at best useless and at worst counterproductive. There are enough examples of this in American history - the Alien and Sedition Acts and the World War II internment camps both come to mind - that the lesson should be woven into the nation's fabric. But it's hard to think of a more graphic example than President Bush's secret program of spying on Americans.

The White House has offered steadily weaker arguments to defend the decision to eavesdrop on Americans' telephone calls and e-mail without getting warrants. One argument is that the spying produced unique and highly valuable information. Vice President Dick Cheney, who never shrinks from trying to prey on Americans' deepest fears, said that the spying had saved "thousands of lives" and could have thwarted the 9/11 attacks had it existed then.

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This was not just a tragic waste of the F.B.I.'s resources in dangerous times. It was an outrageous and pointless intrusion into individuals' privacy. Anyone who read the original reports on the spying operation and thought, "Well, so what, I have nothing to hide," should think about the uncounted innocent Americans who had F.B.I. officers knocking on their doors because of secret and possibly illegal surveillance. The National Security Agency was originally barred from domestic surveillance without court supervision to avoid just this sort of abuse.

The first lawsuits challenging the legality of the domestic spying operation were filed this week, and Congress plans hearings. We hope that lawmakers are more diligent about reining in Mr. Bush now than they have been about his other abuses of power in the name of fighting terrorism.

More at the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/18/opinion/18wed1.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

We can also hope that the New York Times will be more diligent in the future regarding reporting the news instead of being a primary propaganda organ of the Bush neoconster imperialistic regime.


Peace.

[coldiggs]

1. Good article thanks for the link.

[kurth]

2. How about ordinary Americans spying on Bush?

And Cheney. Nothing major, just little things - like, show us your old National Guard records, and the secret meetings with the oil companies.

[lvx35]

3. The "I have nothing to hide" people piss me off so much.

You have nothing to hide...Really? Then you won't mind me coming and taking a tour of your house. Can I go through your underwear drawer? Your wife's? Your daughters? Can I put a video camera in your bed room? Oh, but Homeland Secutiry agents won't do that, eh? Why, because of the over sight? WHAT OVERSIGHT? THE COURTS? WHAT COURTS?

[Oilwellian]

4. Are you sure....

you wanna go through their underwear drawer? :D

[lvx35]

7. Are you sure...

Jake from homeland security doesn't want to go through YOURS??? (:silly:<~Hi, I'm jake)

[DELUSIONAL]

5. NYT is an untrustworthy news source

They are as guilty as bushie is -- all of his crimes also belong to the NYT.

[Nutmegger]

6. NY Times lost many points in my book because of PlameGate

but I'll still find something "decent" once and a while.

OP, thanks for the thread.

[DELUSIONAL]

8. I keep wondering what other crimes of the bushie gang they are hiding

What other secrets are they holding? I don't trust the NYT.

Throwing a few wild punches in bushie's direction doesn't make up for Judith Miller's reporting published in the NYT.

[Nutmegger]

9. That's true...

they held onto the SpyGate story for a year PER Bush Inc's request! God knows what else they're sitting on...!

[oasis]

14. The NYT is going after the Bushistas because of DOJ's pending case.

So it becaomes a contest of whoever gets there firstest with the mostest.

[hfojvt]

10. the uncounted innocent Americans?

Let's count them. How many people have had the FBI knock on their doors because of this?

If the FBI knocks on my door is this a big deal? If I am innocent, it is a waste of time, but am I going to be intimidated by them, or am I ready to help them?

I am betting that the average American has very little contact with law enforcement, and so there is a huge amount of naivete about how Kafkaesque it can be, but the majority of mostly law-abiding citizens will see themselves as allies of the FBI, and so do I in the sense that they are working to see that banks do not get robbed and that cars do not blow up in mall parking lots, etc.

It depends alot on whether the illegal surveillance was being used to catch threats to the public safety, or to harrass political opponents. Yet, if it was the former, then why not get the warrants?

If ordinary Americans feel that they have nothing to hide because they have done nothing wrong, then why does Bush seem to feel that he needs to hide what he is doing from the FISA court, from Congress, and from the public? Because he has done something wrong, and he knows it.

[TorchTheWitch]

17. good point

If ordinary Americans feel that they have nothing to hide because they have done nothing wrong, then why does Bush seem to feel that he needs to hide what he is doing from the FISA court, from Congress, and from the public? Because he has done something wrong, and he knows it.

Exactly so. The only reason to hide this is because whatever it was/is they are doing they knew they could never get a warrant to do... in other words, it was being used for purposes they would never have been given permission for. One doesn't bypass the court, Congress, and lie to the people about this out of mere laziness or convenience... the purpose was criminal, and that's why they hid it. No one goes OUT OF THEIR WAY to hide something that is legitimate... particularly when the method used in going of the way is a criminal act.

[EFerrari]

11. Problem: Bush started this program during his transition

not after 9/11.

So, his argument is not weak, it's simply false.

I'll try to find the DU link.

On edit: If anyone saved it, please post! I didn't, so will search.

[EFerrari]

12. Here is a truthout article that discusses pre 9/11 spying:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011306Z.shtml

Buying Thyme's thread on the Greatest page references this article. It isn't the one I remember but it's what I find tonight. fwiw.

[Catrina]

16. Thanks, Dick Cheney, caught in another outright lie!! That man's

nose should be halfway across the country by now!!

Vice President Dick Cheney, who never shrinks from trying to prey on Americans' deepest fears, said that the spying had saved "thousands of lives" and could have thwarted the 9/11 attacks had it existed then.

If only we had some real journalists who would have asked him, when he told that lie 'Dick, it DID exist, and you know it, and it didn't stop 9/11, did it? Why do you think it didn't? And why are you lying about it?

I would give anything to see these liars challenged by a real free press each time they do this. Of course they wouldn't be doing it if we had a free press. They know our miserable, treasonous, so-called press will do exactly as they expect them to! History will not be kind to the current excuse for journalism!

[EFerrari]

21. That man's nose IS halfway around the country and then some.

I personally CANNOT wait until the list comes out of the "terror" suspects he targetted.

Kerry, Dean, Daschle, Pelosi, MoveOn, Acorn -- oh, there will be many terrific surprises. :sarcasm:

Special Agent Mike, you loser! Go arrest those criminals squatting in our White House or live in shame. You have a choice.

[f-bush]

13. thanks to shrub we live in the fourth reich.

[Neil Lisst]

15. We got through the Cold War with civil liberties ...

But Bush "I'm a War President" is a narcissistic megalomaniac with no respect for Law.

[The Magistrate]

18. Indeed, Mr. Lisst

After the decades of stand-off with the Soviets, who were indeed a powerful entity posing a real threat, anyone today who professes the least degree of fear towards the enemy du jour is a contemptible coward, and should be ashamed to speak or be seen in public....

"Courage is the form every virtue must take at the sticking point."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Neil Lisst]

19. I like your thinking.

All this brouhaha about Iran, when Pakistan has nuclear, as does North Korea. And China. And India. Kashmir is the likely Herzegovina of this era.

Katrina proved that 200 million on levees is money better spent than 200 billion fighting an imaginary opponent in Saddam. It also proved that nature is still our foremost enemy in an age of dense coastal populations and global warming.

[EFerrari]

22. The only quibble I would have with his Honor's assessment

is that even the Soviet Union seems to have been less of a threat than the general pop was led to believe.

(Gracefully surrender the things of youth -- clean air, Taiwan, trust in government . .)

/the spell checker has not been working for me for two days. don't know if it's my machine or DU :shrug:

[DemReadingDU]

20. K&R

[chat_noir]

23. something for those "I have nothing to hide" neighbors and coworkers

http://www.carryabigsticker.com/sorry_we_missed.htm


Think they wouldn't be a little freaked?! :evilgrin: