When I went to Quaker School in the 50's and 60's

[PCIntern]

There was a poem we recited which had the lines:

God loves everyone,
Even the Turks and the Jews.

In my classes, beginning with the first grade, we learned through our teachers that the occupied state of Palestine, held by Jews, was an abhorrence to the traditions of reasonableness. That the moneylenders and the military, neither of whom are revered in the New Testament, had conspired to steal this holy land from the rightful owners. The German killers of many people (the term 'Holocaust' had not yet come into common usage) were terrible, but that did not excuse the usurpation of the Arabs by the Jews and the removal of them from their land 'by force'. There was a tacit political sense in the school that if the Pan-Arab movement led by Nasser, were to regain control of the Holy Land, then it would be simply a deserved reacquisition by displaced, passive, undereducated but honorable folks. This is how the Arab population who fled in 1948 were presented to us as young children. When asked by a classmate whether the United Arab Republic had promised Arab residents of Israel that if they left, their property would be restored after vanquishng the Jews, the teacher responded that that had not occurred. That the Jews had driven these people out with '2x4's with spikes' and pitchforks. during the 1967 War, many of the teachers and members of the Meeting were outwardly rooting for the victory by the Pan-Arab 'coalition', such as it was. When they were trounced badly in six days, a pall descended upon the school which exceeded that even of the sadness after Kennedy's death in Dallas.

As a Jewish student, we became second-class citizens - sarcasm, ridicule, and direct reproach were de riguer. Many parents removed their children from the school that summer and relocated them elsewhere, generally non-sectarian schools. In those days, there were no such statements as 'return to pre-1967 borders' - it WAS 1967, and the result was catastrophic for the movement. Parenthetically, the Algerian crisis was also occurring and the French were not too welcome either, but that's another story for another day.

What amazes me about this whole movement here at DU is that we ourselves live in a country appropriated from others, and the return of Manhattan Island to the Native Americans is not going to happen. It's just not, no matter what anyone may postulate. Such is the natural succession of civilizations, like it or not. For 58 years, Israel has existed in a state of war. During that time, they have turned the tiny strip oi\f land into an oasis in the Middle East - what could they have done if there was peace? You may argue that they have been excessive in some of their military campaigns, ill-advised in others. Perhaps. But I will tell you one thing of which I will never be unconvinced: if the Arab populations ever had the wherewithal to overrun Greater Israel, I do not believe for one instant that there would be 100 survivors. I believe that there would be a genocide which would rival that of Pol Pot and Hitler. The one thing I believe is that the Arabs are good for their word, and when they say that they want to see the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and Haifa running with the blood of Jews, I am more than willing to accept that as a fact. And that, my good friends on the Left, is why Israel fights in the manner that they do.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

1. Unfortunately, I have never fully read, and therefor understood,

the whole reasoning behind the UN taking this one strip of land and saying ok, this is the land we are going to give to the Jews. I however, have clearly understood all of my life that it didn't go over real big with the Arabs. I have had an understanding that what this seems to basically boil down to is a land dispute that goes back for centuries. Can you provide some background on that?

Thanks

[PCIntern]

2. No, I am not an historian.

there are many texts to read written by all sides. I refer you to your library for that.

what I am saying is that the eradication of the Jews in Israel is not post-1967. It is post-Moses. And if this attitude were taking place in any other sovereign state in the world, it would be considered extremist. I defy you or anyone else to show me a country where the adjective 'illegitimate' is often placed before it other than Israel.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

3. Tibet.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

6. Your silence is deafening. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. I'm For An Independent Tibet

But I will admit I don't know much about the problem.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

9. You are not alone as most Americans don't.

Unfortunately for Tibet, when the Chinese invaded in 1949, and murdered over a million people, Tibet didn't have any oil under their feet so no one was "morally outraged" at the fact that they were being literally wiped off the map.

[Midlodemocrat]

12. I wondered that myself. I have always thought

that 'giving' Israel that particular piece of land came from a collective guilt that the world felt about the Holocaust. It is precious soil to all Jews, Christians and Muslims, but I am at a loss as to understand why it is worth killing over.

As a person of faith, this entire situation dismays me. I feel as though I should be re-reading all the books/papers produced on the Holocaust, the Inquisition and the Crusades. I just don't understand it. I don't think I ever will.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

15. I would encourage you to do so.

Unfortunately, too many people have no familiarity with the religious history of our own religion let alone that of other countries. It really is interesting and does explain a lot of why the world functions as it does today. However, much of it is bloody and downright disgusting, but then some of it, especially if you start with Greek mythology, can be uplifting and humorous.

The importing thing, in America anyway, is that the founders were painfully aware of the history which is why they went to great lengths to insure that it and the government was never commingled. But, seeing how Americans have never been real big on knowing their history, and they really don't teach it in school, the theo-crates have, over a long period of time, subverted the founders efforts.

[oneighty]

4. Quaker School?

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[eShirl]

5. There's a light that was shining when the world began

It's the light that is shining in the heart of a man.
There's a light that is shining in the Turk and the Jew
It's the light that is shining, Friend, in me and in you.

Walk in the light, wherever you may be
Walk in the light, wherever you may be
In my old leather britches and my shaggy, shaggy locks
I am walking in the glory of the light, said Fox.


I believe the title is "The George Fox Song."

[undeterred]

8. Quakers believe

that there is something of God in every person.
that the here and now is sacred.
that hatred destroys, but love endures and overcomes.
that speaking Truth to Power and taking non violent action can bring about peace on earth.

Since 1660.

[lonestarnot]

11. Beautiful! My wonderful boss is a Quaker and in my over

half a century on the planet, I've never met a better man. I'm going to miss him.

[undeterred]

13. I'm a new Quaker, though I've been a Christian for a long time.

It is so simple and so profound... and its really hard. Quakers look inward. We are supposed to look for the best in other people.

How does one find "that of God" in George Bush?

[lonestarnot]

16. I don't mean to be rude so I hope you don't take this that way,

but I will not comment about any religion, faith or lack thereof on the boards here again. It is just too controversial, and I prefer to keep my God and my faith to myself. Separation of Church and DU. I will say that George Bushitler worships himself and that's about it.

[Crunchy Frog]

10. I went to Quaker school in the late 70's.

I don't recall anything like what you're describing, but maybe things were different by then.

I do recall singing that song cited in eShirl's post. The lines in that song, I think, refer to the somewhat heretical belief among the early Quakers that there was that of God in all people, even in the non-Christian ones.

On a separate note. If you are going to compare modern Israel with the USA as it was being stolen from the native Americans, are you prepared to demonize the Native Americans for the periodic raids and other acts of violence they engaged in against the European Americans? Or conversely, are you prepared to say that modern day Arab terrorists are the moral equivalent of Native Americans who engaged in acts of resistance against the theft of their land?

[PCIntern]

17. No, what I'm saying is

that this country no longer belongs solely to the Native Americans. And 'Palestine' is not going to be given over to the ''returning' Palestinians even if they wre entitled to the land which they're not.

That's the way of the world. Now it's time to move on.

...and FYI, the manner in which the teachers stated directly to us people of the Jewish persuasion was..."God loves everyone..even the Turks and the Jews, and even YOU."

this was in Newtown, Pennsylvania. In addition, my mother taught in Quakeer school for nearly 20 years. I know wherefrom I speak. Interestingly, since 'tolerance' is the watchword of the faith, I suggest that it be looked up, as it were, in the dictionary. The meaning differs a whole lot from the word 'acceptance'.

[Mandate My Ass]

19. I'd really like to see you go onto a reservation and say

"get over yourselves already, time to move on."

I've heard the same speech from George Bush. They'd like to see us dead, so we'll kill them for harboring that thought. We love life. They hate it. So let's kill the uncivilized in the name of peaceful civilization.

[PCIntern]

20. what are you talking about...

Do you really honestly believe that the Israelis are going to conquer the Middle East and genocidally destroy the indigenous population? is that why they gave back so much of the land which they had conquered following a defensive war? Name another country which has done so in the modern era, one with natural resources like the Sinai Peninsula? They gave it back for a frigging peace treaty with the Egyptians and foreign aid from the Americans. That's right...we bought off both sides for peace. And both sides accepted it. Do you see the Egyptians waging war on the Israelis? No...why do you think that is...congruity of ideology?

Not hardly. That's because none of this has anything to do with Palestinians, right of return, or any of the other specious matters that those at DU feel the Arabs and Palestinans have been shortchanged upon. Do you really think that the heads of Syria and Iran give a s--t about Palestinians when they don't really care about their own peoples? Give me a break, pal. They are using the Palestinians as a foil to fight Israel so that they can get their own peoples' minds off the subjugation and the rights denied by the Monarchies, both religious and secular of these countries.

And one more thing: if the Jews had been given the South Pole, they'd have had it up and running in no time and you and yours would be there saying it had to be given back, because the Jews were there illegitimately. Would Pluto be far enough away for everyone's tastes?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

18. that there was that of God in all people, even in the non-Christians

oohh, that is a heretical belief!

Everyone knows that our God is the only right God and if you don't know that then it's too the eternal barbecue for you.

[Nutmegger]

14. You Quaker-types better watch out.

The DoD is known to spy on your kind.