72 Die In Lebanon In Deadliest Day of Israeli Attack

[pberq]

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/1434244

72 Die In Lebanon In Deadliest Day of Israeli Attack
At least 72 civilians died in Lebanon on Wednesday making it the deadliest day of the Israeli assault. In the village of Srifa, Israeli warplanes flattened an entire neighborhood. 15 homes were destroyed. At least 17 civilians died including several children. The local mayor described the attack as a massacre.

. . .

Report: Israel Weighing Ground Invasion
The British newspaper Guardian has reported The Bush administration has given Israel a window of a week to inflict maximum damage on Hizbullah before it will consider a ceasefire. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Israel is weighing a ground invasion of South Lebanon. Some Israeli military experts are now saying the air war has been insufficient and that a ground war will be needed to dislodge Hezbollah. Israel’s Defense Minister Amir Peretz said the attack on Lebanon would continue "without letup and time limit."

Israel Drops 23 Tons Of Bombs On Suspected Hezbollah Bunker
Last night Israeli warplanes attacked what the military described as a bunker in Beirut used by senior members of Hezbollah. 23 tons of explosives were dropped on the site. In a statement that aired on Al Manar, Hezbollah said none of its leaders were killed and that the site was actually a mosque under construction.

Death Toll in Lebanon Reaches 330; 500,000 Displaced
The death toll in Lebanon now stands at around 330. The Israeli bombardment has displaced over 500,000 people. One in every eight Lebanese residents has been forced to flee their homes – and the refugee situation is expected to worsen. The Israeli military is broadcasting radio messages in South Lebanon ordering all civilians to leave the region. The Israeli military has also warned it will bomb any truck driven in the area.

(More. . .)

[shadowknows69]

1. So the israeli's have now exceeded

the average daily civilian casualties inflicted on Iraqi citizens by the insurgents. Way to set a new benchmark Israel.

[atreides1]

2. Are these numbers accurate?

We need to make sure that they are coming from a totally unbiased source. After all the Israelis are questioning the actual numbers that have been killed, along with many DU members. So the source of this report must be vetted and not have any connections with the Lebanese government.(Sarcasm)

[BobRossi]

4. Reuters good enough?

"BEIRUT (Reuters) - A tiny U.S. Marine force landed in Lebanon on Thursday to evacuate Americans stranded by a nine-day-old Israeli bombardment, which has killed more than 300 people but failed to stop Hizbollah rocket strikes on Israel."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060720/ts_nm/mideast_dc_446

[jonnyblitz]

16. lol...

I thought I was bad.. :rofl:

[pberq]

3. UN: Israel and Hezbollah May Be Committing War Crimes

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/1434244

<snip>
UN: Israel and Hezbollah May Be Committing War Crimes
While the U.S. has fully backed what Israel is calling Operation Just Reward, criticism of the war is growing in the international community. A top UN official is warning that Israel may be committing war crimes in Lebanon by attacking civilians. Louise Arbour of the UN High Commission on Human Rights said “International humanitarian law is clear on the supreme obligations to protect civilians during hostilities.” Her comments were also directed at Hezbollah.

Hezbollah Rockets Kill Two In Nazareth
On Wednesday the militant Lebanese group fired over 100 missiles into northern Israel hitting Haifa and, for the first time, Nazareth. The rocket attacks killed two boys in Nazareth – they were both Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. 37 others were wounded.

UN: Children Account for One-Third of Casualties
Over the past nine days, 10 times as many Lebanese have died as Israelis. The United Nations' emergency relief coordinator, Jan Egeland, said that neither Israeli nor Hezbollah seemed to care about civilian suffering. He estimated that nearly a third of the dead or wounded were children. He warned that many of the wounded could not be helped because roads and bridges had been cut by Israeli air strikes. The International Committee of the Red Cross also criticized Israel for killing so many civilians and for destroying much of Lebanon’s public infrastructure.

[burythehatchet]

10. Why do you hate Israel?

What if people in Mexico were lobbing rockets into Texas?

What do you expect Israel to do?

Israel just wants to live in peace.

[High Plains]

12. Did you forget the sarcasm button? I hope.

[burythehatchet]

13. Like to keep everyone guessing

:)

[jonnyblitz]

17. it may not be sarcasm, ya never know!! nt

[SledDriver]

5. 17 civilians died including several children...

Children??? Israel is using precision guided munitions to slaughter fucking CHILDREN? There can be no justification for that. None. They're children.

"In the village of Srifa, Israeli warplanes flattened an entire neighborhood. 15 homes were destroyed. At least 17 civilians died including several children.

No doubt these were all legitimate military targets?

Fucking cowards. The military should never engage defenseless civilians, regardless of provocation. To do so is pure cowardice, genocide, and a war crime.

[CuteNFuzzy]

6. Can't argue with these sentiments

Bombing children and targeting these civilians is incredibly cowardly.

But who will bring the killers to justice?

[aceman2373]

9. But what about...

When a person straps a bomb on their chest and walks into a cafeteria, in Tel Aviv, and blows himself up and hundreds of men, women and children. Would we not consider them a coward. Why do we not make a bigger deal of that when it happens, then when something is covered by the media and all the press?

[SledDriver]

14. When Timothy McVeigh blew up the Federal building in OKC...

did we send in the Army? Did the Air Force fly dozens of sorties and drop 500lb bombs on anyone? No. It was handled by law enforcement (FBI, ATF, State Police, etc...).

We are talking about the civilians here. There can be no justification for using military weapons against an unarmed civilian populace. Israel is using artillery shells and precision guided bombs dropped from F-16s. They have the ability to control and direct, with a high degree of accuracy, where and what their munitions hit - and they are targetting civilian infrastructure.

I'd have to side with Bill Maher in answer to your question: Strapping dynamite to your chest and going in to blow people (and yourself) up is less cowardly than to push a button and blow people up from a safe distance. I don't admire or support that, mind you. But given the choice, which one would you pick?

[jonnyblitz]

18. oh that ploy is so fucking tiresome. nobody supports that here

just because it wasn't mentioned in this thread. quit trying to change the subject. :eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. So you want a "bigger deal" to be made on the occasion of other atrocities

Is that your defense of THESE atrocities?

Because it's a piss-poor one, you know?

[Tulum_Moon]

22. I do not see suicide bombers as cowards.

Suicide bombers in the middle east are some very courageous people. They ar willing to give their lives for belief in something. Flame away! But I stand by my statements.

[blonndee]

46. Neither do I.

How many of us would be willing to do the same for what we believe in?

I can't honestly say I would. Maybe, maybe not.

[pberq]

7. "Israel has carte blanche to hit wherever it is that they want"

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/1434252

AMY GOODMAN: We go now to Lebanon to speak with Jackson Allers, a correspondent with Free Speech Radio News. He joins us on the line from Beirut. Welcome to Democracy Now!, Jackson.

JACKSON ALLERS: Thank you, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you describe the scene on the ground now?

JACKSON ALLERS: Predictably, it’s tense in Beirut right now. The reports continue to stream in about the bombardment in the south, and there's really a sense on the ground of not knowing when an Israeli strike is going to happen in the city and when it is not. In Achrafieh, the eastern Christian district of Beirut, yesterday, the Israelis targeted different construction vehicles within the neighborhood, and that was sort of a crossing of the line in many people's minds. They now think that Israel has carte blanche to hit wherever it is that they want. So predictably things are very tense on the ground with the people.

(more. . .)

[pberq]

8. Refugees

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/1434252

. . .AMY GOODMAN: Jackson, you have been speaking with refugees?

JACKSON ALLERS: That's correct.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what they’ve said, and where they come from and where they’re staying?

JACKSON ALLERS: They are coming mostly from the south, of course. As you’ve mentioned, 500,000 internally displaced in Lebanon. But they’re also coming from the southern neighborhood of Dahiya, the Hezbollah-controlled neighborhood of Southern Beirut that was absolutely decimated over the last five days. They took out the Hezbollah headquarters. And so there are some 30,000 refugees from Dahiya. They are locating themselves all over Beirut into schools. I visited a parking garage in not-so-far outside of Dahiya that housed some 3,000 refugees. So these are the locations that they are going to.

Now, the coordination of what’s happening with these various shelters and schools, the government has been unable to meet that demand. And in talking to these refugees, there's clearly a tenseness to their voice. They don't know what the outcome is going to be with this conflict, and they don't know where they’re going to stay. Supplies, I talked with the Minister of Economy yesterday, Sami Haddad, and he said supplies are good enough with food and fuel to last for two months, but how to get those resources to people is the problem. So the refugees are very tense. . . .

[Tom Joad]

15. 500,000 Displaced! One-half million people. Hurricane Olmert!

[jsamuel]

11. geez...

wow, all for an badly conceived policy that blowing up a country will stop terrorism

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. But..but..they were killed for the "Good of Lebanon".

Just ask the Israelis and our congress who voted to support the slaughter.

[babylonsister]

20. This sucks, period. What, we now have 2 wars competing with

each other? Who has the highest body count? It FUCKING SUCKS!

[Selatius]

21. It is time for a cease-fire, period! This is enough violence. n/t

[Clarkie1]

23. It's a tribute to the care Israel is taking that the toll is not higher.

330 dead is tragic, but considering the amount of munitions dropped it is clear Israel is making an effort to avoid the loss of innocent life whenever possible. Of course, in war mistakes will always be made, but Israel does not want civilian deaths. They are painfully aware that every civilian death lowers their standing in the international communtiy, and creates more anger for terrorists to feed on. They have made the decision that the benefits outweigh the costs in the long run, and hopefully they will suceed in significantly neutralizing Hezbollah.

The greatest potential benefit, with international help from the U.N. and U.S. leadership, will be a more peaceful Lebanon. Setting the groundwork for a stable peace in the region hs the potential to save a far greater number of lives in the long run than are being lost now.

[CuteNFuzzy]

26. hundreds of civilians dead

and your response is to tribute Israel?

That's pretty impressive I have to give it to ya

[blonndee]

27. It's a tribute to Israel that the toll is as high as it is.

No justification. They are murderers just as members of Hezbollah are murderers.

[CuteNFuzzy]

29. "murderers just as members of Hezbollah are murderers"

perfectly stated.

[Clarkie1]

30. Who has Israel murdered?

[blonndee]

31. Read the news, my friend.

There are plenty of murderers on "both" sides.

[Clarkie1]

32. I have, but I have not seen or read about any murders by Israel.

Do you have a link?

[blonndee]

33. Surely you are not unaware of all the people

killed by Israel's latest incursions?

[Clarkie1]

35. I'm aware of that, but who have the Israelis murdered? nt

[blonndee]

38. See above post. n/t

[Clarkie1]

39. It says people have been killed, who has been murdered? nt

[blonndee]

43. Same thing. They knew they would kill civilians and they

did it anyway. That's murder. Or at least, manslaughter, according to US standards.

Hezbollah and Israel are both guilty of murder or whatever you wish to call it. They KILL. The dead are dead.

[Clarkie1]

47. It is not the same thing, it was not murder.

Hezbollah has a policy of murder, Israel has a policy of limiting the loss of innocent life.

[blonndee]

49. Justify it however you will,

call it whatever you want. The deaths attributed to Israel far outweigh the deaths to those whom it oppresses and/or those who "want its destruction." That you cannot deny. So that makes me wonder who, really "has a policy of limiting the loss of life."

However, I am not one to keep a scorecard, and I do not feel compelled to attempt to justify murder on either side. It's wrong no matter who does it. I find it sad that some people feel as though some lives are less valuable than others. And who would justify the deaths of these "unworthy" people.

[Clarkie1]

51. So you believe Israel has murdered civilians?

Again I ask you, what is your evidence for this? Do you know the definition of murder? Throwing words around inappropriately makes it impossible to have a reasoned discussion on such a complex matter as this.

[blonndee]

52. Yes I do. As I believe Hezbollah and Hamas have

murdered civilians. I think all of these groups are equally guilty and the solution is not simple at all. All I know is, it's wrong. And anything one can do to prevent this death is right.

[Clarkie1]

53. Yes, Hezbollah and Hamas have murdered civilians.

However, Israel has not. They have killed civilians. You might not think there is a difference, but there is, and it's a critical one in order to understand the current conflict.

[blonndee]

54. Yep, the difference is,

these people are brown and not special.

[The Magistrate]

56. That Is Not Quite Fair, Ma'am

It does seem to me that there is a signifigant difference between an operation that is aimed deliberately at killing civilians without any military objective, and an operation that is aimed at a military target but cannot reasonably be carried out without killing civilians.

It is also true that a fair proportion of Hezbolah's military activities are quite legitinate, being aimed at Israeli military personnel.

[blonndee]

57. If you look at my past posts

I have indicated that I believe it's murder all around. I think where we disagree is whether or not a military objective that can reasonably be expected to kill civilians is or is not murder.

My opinion is that if one knows that civilians will be murdered, then any action to facilitate that action is murder, whatever side one is on. Perhpas my opinion on the legal aspects is wrong; however, I firmly stand by my positions from a moral perspective. Honestly, Magistrate, you cannot say that the IDF is unaware of what they will/have wrought, and it seems to me that you have indeed acknowledged the legitimacy of some of the anti-Israeli actions thus far.

[The Magistrate]

58. That Is A Respectable Position, Ma'am

On moral grounds you are quite sound. But those who take the amoral and legalist view do not, it seems to me, do so as a means of tailoring the outcome according to complexion of the corpse; they simply employ a different frame of reference, that in particular cases yields particular results.

[minkyboodle]

34. you just don't stop do you?

eom

[blonndee]

45. edit: friendly fire

My apologies.

[The Magistrate]

40. It Would Be Wisest, Sir

Not to hold too high a hope for any lasting benefit coming from this episode.

[Clarkie1]

42. I think it would be unwise not to.

We need to make the best of every situation, and this will change the dynamics in the region. We need to look for any opportunities for a more lasting peace that develop from the crippling of Hezbollah. Not to do so would be even more tragic than the current violence taking place.

[The Magistrate]

48. It Is Not Going To Happen, Sir

Israel is attempting to neutralize an irregular partisan body that is populatly supported by a populace, operating in very rugged terrain. This is a very difficult operation, that cannot be done without a great deal of infantry work, and a great amount of time. Success requires complete sequestration of the area harboring the guerrillas, and complete domination of it by soldiers. It cannot be done from the air, and it cannot be done by cannon firing from a great distance.

It is clear by now that the Lebanese government has not been, and will not be, moved to co-operate with Israel in the effort to suppress Hezbollah's armed detachments. It would, in my view, have been in that government's interests to do this, but it is has decided otherwise, for its own good reasons. With co-operation of the Lebanese government, the thing might have been possible of achievement, but that is not going to happen.

About the most it seems likely that Israel can now achieve is to destroy a pretty good proportion of Hezbollah's weapons caches, and kill a goodly number of its armed fighters as the Israeli infantry and armor go into the southern hills. Both can be replaced readily enough. The inevitable Israeli retirement from the incursion will certainly be presented as a victory for Hezbollah among its adherents, and greatly raise its prestige.

The problem, at its most basic level, is this. Military power cannot achieve the victory desired in a political conflict when it is weilded on purely conventionalmilitary lines. This is a lesson military leaders in all countries seem to have a very difficult time absorbing....

[Clarkie1]

50. I agree there is not a military solution to this.

It's only part of the equation. However, after the dust settles, a stronger international peacekeeping force as well as massive Western ecomonic aid to Lebanon could I think lead to a Democratic, peaceful Lebanon without Hezbollah. The government has to provide the services Hezbollah was providing, and the international community should help them to do it.

Even taking your position of hopelessness, for Israel to stop now would be worse than the situation before because it would not accomplish changing the situation at all, and this would (for certain) simply happen again and again.

[The Magistrate]

55. No One Will Put An International Force Into This Cockpit, Sir

Any force put into the southern border marches of Lebanon would become a target for the Hezbollah, and it is no nation's compelling individual interest to place its soldiers in the way of their attacks.

Israel has no choice but to press on with the infantry operation, and secure what temporary gains it can, if only to save the face of its government domestically. But no great change in the situation is going to be wrought by it, and the thing be repeated in some form or other in the future.

Not everything, Sir, can be solved....

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. I hereby nominate Israeli military planners for the Nobel Peace Prize!

Their bombing campaign has reduced civilian casualties to a mere statistical anomaly, with only .00078 civilian deaths per ton of munitions! This extraordinary feat of humanistic thinking is a tribute not only to their own keen sense of humanity, but to the humanity of us all, and has gone further in advancing the cause of human worth and global peace than any other bombing campaign in recorded history. For this reason, I nominate the planners of the Israeli bombing campaign on Lebanon for the Nobel Peace Prize! Who is with me?

[Clarkie1]

44. Excellent and humorous sarcasm...well done.

Putting the noble peace prize aside, has there ever been a bombing campaign that has led to a more lasting peace?

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. Huh?

Is this one over yet?

[threadkillaz]

24. A poem for Lebanon and Iraqi civilians

Ehud and George sitting in a tree
B-o-m-b-i-n-g
First comes drones
Then comes missiles
Then comes both in the war crimes trials

[blonndee]

28. We can only hope

but then we poets and hippies have always been idealists, haven't we?

[threadkillaz]

25. dupe-ity dupe

nt

[minkyboodle]

37. does anyone doubt it will continue to rise?

I sure don't especially with foreign nationals
leaving. I really don't know what to say at this
point, everday I wake up and its worse and you
turn on CNN and want to pull your hair out. Just
an awful tragedy.