Please join me in a thread for PEACE

[theHandpuppet]

Let me begin with these words of wisdom:

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Yesterday I had posted my thoughts on the current crisis between Israel and Lebanon on a thread by Rucky (now locked) and fellow DUer Jacobin asked that I begin a new thread with my post. I was hesitant to do so but tensions seem so high that perhaps it could serve as a springboard for my own offer of a cease fire -- or a deep breath, whichever you prefer.

Won't you join me and add your own thoughts, words of wisdom or prayers for peace to this thread?

My post from a previous thread:

Y'know, it's interesting because on a visit home to my mother just a few short weeks ago she told me a story she'd never before related to anyone. When her family escaped Europe (my maternal line are German Jews) they were headed for a ship which was to take refugees aboard but for one reason or another they were delayed and by the time they got to the dock the ship had already raised the gangplank. Despite the fact that the crew was ignoring their pleas the captain of the ship, seeing their plight, ordered his men to redeploy the gangplank and allow them to board. "If it wasn't for that captain," my mother said, "perhaps none of us would be here today."

That story only reinforces my dismay at the turn of events in the ME. There is plenty of blame to go around, but blame is not what is needed here. How could we not relate to the ghettoization of Gaza, the usurping of others' lands, a feeling of hopelessness against a vastly superior military force, etc. when it is so much a part of our own history? Can we not recognize the irony of treating others as we have despised and feared being treated ourselves?

Conversely, the history of the Jewish people is fraught with persecution, imprisonment and genocide, of being surrounded by those who despise, distrust and curse you and will at the drop of a hat blame Jews for everything from the Black Death to "genetic pollution" or collapsing economies. Jews in Israel fear because they have much to fear -- it's only that some Arab and/or Muslim peoples who are honest (or perhaps "up front" would better describe it) about the reasons for either their anti-Semitism or hatred of Israel, yet it is "our" (so to speak) history which is littered with the bodies of murdered Jews.

So what will more killing accomplish? For every member of Hezbollah or Hamas who is killed, how many more is this war creating who will take up arms to avenge their dead? Have we learned nothing in Iraq? When the new Lebanese government, one struggling to establish a ME democracy against all odds and which had finally managed to drive Syria from their land, is undercut and made impotent as the result of this war, how exactly will that make Israel any safer? Will the families of dead children remember that bomb was intended for a Hezbollah militant and not their child?

More war, more killing, more blame, more vengeance, more tit for tat, bomb for bomb has never been the answer and is not the answer now. What we need is courage. Like that captain who saw a wrong and decided there was another way, we need someone to face the monster and lower that gangplank and offer a way to life and peace. For all our futures, there must be a better way.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

-- Mahatma Gandhi

[LiberalVoice]

1. K&R

:hippie:

[Fredda Weinberg]

2. And if no one fought Hitler?

I'm sorry, but I can't condemn all uses of violence.

[lvx35]

5. Gandhi was prepared to fight Hitler non-violently.

He said that it could be done, that there would be great bloodshed, but that it could be done. If that's your convictions I say fly with it, if your not bullshitting yourself: Gandhi also said it took more courage to be non-violent than to fight, because you literally are called upon to die before you kill, but never run away. So I respect it.

[Fredda Weinberg]

9. I'm willing to die for a cause I believe in

The mornings I stood outside a former crack house, waiting for the cops to arrive so we could be our computer class ... yeah, that's worth dying for. But I would have killed to protect the kids in my charge, though the closest we came to violence was the stabbing victim who stumbled in one day.

I think Gandhi was bullshitting himself when he wrote to Hitler. As for courage, I see no advantage in combat to sacrificing my life for a noble cause - I think Patton put it best, "Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

[lvx35]

13. I don't think Gandhi was bullshitting himself.

There's this mythology of the "Evil Man" that comes up when people talk about non-violence, where somebody always brings up Hitler as this manifestation of pure evil, as if he were the pure cause what happened in Nazi germany. But the ugly more complex truth is that Hitler didn't kill 11 million people in camps, the german people did, millions of them through direct action and consent...It was a social phenomenon, not just 1 evil man which created the whole situation...yet history seems to forgive the nameless ones who operated the gas chambers and pulled the triggers to focus on the unforgivable evil man. Its almost a psychological protection mechanism to let us justify acceptance of modern peaceful germans in context of their history, but its a necessary one. WWII was ended by forgiveness, as every war is, and started by a fearful instict for self protection which justifies the killing of others before they kill you, as every war is.

[enigmacat]

16. Very good point

"But the ugly more complex truth is that Hitler didn't kill 11 million people in camps, the german people did, millions of them through direct action and consent..."

[Fredda Weinberg]

35. Sure he was

If he really thought those letters to Hitler would make any difference.

One evil man didn't create the whole situation ... but one evil man did enable an entire nation to act on its fears. Sound familiar?

History may have forgiven the nameless - I know my father never did, but he survived the labor camps. He also sabotaged the rail lines on which his squad was forced to work, packing snow instead of soil beneath the tracks.

Did "innocent" people die as a result of what he did? You bet. But it also helped cripple any planned Spring offensive and saved countless others.

Sorry, but I can't condemn violence in all applications.

[lvx35]

44. Yeah, I hear you.

I was doing some research last night that lead me to info on Nazi medical experiments, ghastly ghastly stuff. Looking at the pictures didn't fill my heart with feelings of forgiveness, I'll tell you that! But I think in any case its really important to be reason oriented, and consider the application of non-violence as a rational thing, not a faith based thing. Take what you said about Hitler enabling. I think you hit it dead on, the Nazi political machine shaped hearts and minds to be hateful and destructive...But consider the implied opposite of this fact, which is that hearts and minds can also be shaped to be loving and peaceful. This is the realm of non-violent action, winning the war in people's heads before its fought with bodies. I believe there was a point, before we had to start shooting germans, that the war could have been won in german minds against Hitler. But that opportunity slipped by and things got ugly as we know. Nevertheless, I think that there is lot of power in looking at ideas as the enemy instead of the people who hold them.

[enigmacat]

15. I get your POV, but disagree.

"I think Gandhi was bullshitting himself when he wrote to Hitler. As for courage, I see no advantage in combat to sacrificing my life for a noble cause - I think Patton put it best, 'Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.'"

The thing is, violence begets violence. It should be obvious by what is occurring right now. Israel/Lebanon/Palestine, US/Iraq. Dealing with violence by committing violent acts does not work. It just doesn't. In the 60's, Martin Luther King had the right idea. If you remember back then, violent protests did not succeed. Non-violent protests were FAR more effective. Gandhi, MLK, Jesus, the Buddha, etc., they all got it.
Cutting off any financial support, and instituting embargoes are what should be happening, with countries that kill and war, not indescriminately dropping bombs on people.
I mean, if Iraq had the capability to bomb the United States, and they did, in your rationale, it would just be "taking us out" before we "took them out." This way of thinking is incomprehensible.
What also complicates the Israeli issue specifically, is the kidnapping and response ratio; it is way out of proportion. Only naive people would believe this war is happening because of a soldier's kidnapping, or more accurately, "capture." The soldier storyline is a red herring.

[Fredda Weinberg]

36. Yeah and shooting rockets is just horseplay

We can disagree agreeably.

The history of the US would contradict your analysis ... native Americans were once an existential threat but now co-exist peacefully with their dominators. I'm glad Israel didn't follow our example and offered citizenship to the Arabs who remained.

As for the effectiveness of violence, may I remind you that Jesus did not free the Jews from Roman domination - Moses did and didn't hesitate to use "persuasive means"; Buddhism did not stop the bloodletting in Sri Lanka or deter the Japanese; in his Nobel prize acceptance speech, MLK called war "obsolete" but only because he thought that modern weapons changed the equation.

To quote him, "There may have been a time when war served as a negative good by preventing the spread and growth of an evil force" - you may disagree, but Israelis believe they are resisting an evil force that threatens their lives.

[shadowknows69]

32. Wars need to go back to "Fields of battle"

The hawks want to fight for what they think is right? Fine then be real warriors. Two armies assembled on a neutral field of honor. No threat to people who just want to liv in peace. Fuck the guns and planes too I say we go back to swords and spears. General or squire were only as good or as safe as their own skill and that of the men to their flanks.

[ShortnFiery]

7. What countries are acting "like Hitler" did TODAY?

We are acting like world class bullies. Both Israel and the USA consider THEIR PEOPLE's life as "more precious" than the Arab Peoples. They are building an empire, not the Arab countries. :(

[Fredda Weinberg]

10. Israel's building an empire?

Then why did she return the Sinai to Egypt, pull out of southern Lebanon instead of depopulating it and evacuate troops out of Gaza? No, the Jewish state wants to survive, that's all ... after a half century, she has negotiated peaceful relationships with half her neighbors and can defend herself without fear of annihilation.

That's not even remotely close to the US possessions and territories in the Pacific, our bases across Europe and economic dominance. We're an empire, all right - no sense denying it.

But like Hitler? Sorry, you lose me there. I guess it's the effect of time, but the comparison is frankly ludicrous.

[ShortnFiery]

12. They invade and cede land "at will" they are bullies. eom

[theHandpuppet]

29. To Fredda and others in this subthread...

Please... there are literally hundreds of threads on DU debating the merits of war, which side has the moral high ground, etc. This thread is provided not to judge but simply express a hope for peace. Peace not only for others throughout the world but amongst ourselves at DU. Is this not possible even for one thread? I would hope that it is.

Be well! Here -- have a morning repast on me! :donut:

[Boomer]

3. There is no way to peace

"There is no way to peace. Peace is the way."

-- A.J. Muste.

[NotGivingUp]

4. Seriously? We don't have time for a thread for peace.

[lvx35]

6. To be honest I wish Israel would engage in tit-for-tat

instead of these huge disproportionate resonses that target innocents and strengthen the enemy. But yeah, even tit-for-tat is not peace. My opinion is that peace in the middle east can ONLY come from interfaith alliances and these can ONLY come from religious moderates and liberals getting active instead of letting fundies run the show with their own hatred of muslims and end time prophecies of israels demise.

[Spazito]

8. Thank you for posting this

"For all our futures, there must be a better way."



Beautifully written OP.

[Nikki Stone 1]

11. Joining, kicking and recommending.

:kick:

[cry baby]

14. I'm here nt

[tinfoil tiaras]

17. I'll join

Cause i <3 peace...

Kicked & recced...woot woot

[Spazito]

18. Back to page one for Peace n/t

[Martin Eden]

19. Courage

When personal tragedy strikes, which takes more courage: seeking vengeance and adding to the escalating violence, or vowing to do everything in your power to prevent more people from suffering the grief and horror you experienced?

Someone brought up the argument that non-violence is not the best strategy against an enemy like Nazi Germany, and I agree. Defeating Hitler militarily was necessary to prevent greater suffering. The question now is whether the military action taken by Israel and Hezbollah will prevent greater suffering in that region. I think the Israelis are mistaken if they think they can beat Hezbollah or the Palestinians into submission, and I also think Arabs who vow the destruction of Israel are only making things worse for their people.

True courage in the face of danger is the determination to resist the violent passions that consume human beings in the midst of bloodshed and grief. When every impulse in your body wants to kill, yet you devote your energies to helping people live, you are the real hero.

[smokey nj]

20. Peace.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Great idea!

K&R

[oasis]

22. Peace. What a beautiful choice.

:grouphug:

[Just Me]

23. my hand and heart joins you

[Just Me]

26. Recommended,...from the depth of my own humanity. eom

[UrbScotty]

24. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God"

Matthew 5:9

[helderheid]

25. Thank you. Tonight I was looking on my harddrive for pictures from the

school I attended in the Netherlands but realized I only had physical pictures and not digital ones. My classmates were from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Dutch colonies as well as one from Russia and one from Scotland.

Our commonality was the Dutch language.

I was pregnant when attending these classes. The men from Iraq made sure to open the door for me every morning. The women from Afghanistan shared with me their stories of having their babies for the first time and how frightening it was in their country. Each and every student regardless of where they were from treated me as an equal - even though I knew our government had a huge role in their destinies.

We all want a good life.
We all want our children to have bright futures.
We all want health, a wage that we can live on, and friendship.

We all hurt when there is war.
We all hurt when our children are hurting or are in danger of hurting.
We all suffer when we are deprived of what will keep us healthy, when we are deprived of a decent wage, and when we are isolated.

Please - we are all people. Those radicals in power are killing us - we are family.

[OneBlueSky]

27. how quickly the world has forgotten the teachings of Gandhi . . .

and Martin Luther King, Jr. . . we pay lip service to them as exceptional human beings, but completely ignore the truth of what they taught us . . .

[theHandpuppet]

30. Speaking of Dr. King...

So many words of wisdom!

"Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."

and

"Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

[KitchenWitch]

28. Kick for peace!

:hi:

[GeorgeGist]

31. Does Peace ever lead to War...

?

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Thank you. That's very well said. nt

[magellan]

34. “When the power of love overcomes the love of power,

...the world will know peace.” ~ Jimi Hendrix

[Boomer]

37. Kick

Already did the "R" part.

:kick:

[bloom]

38. One society against another

Will one concede and let the other have it ?

Israel won't (with the help of the US). And I can't imagine the larger ME non-Jewish Semitic society conceding itself if it's all brought into this.

I would think that it could be worked out if that was the desired result (that is what I wish for). I also think that when you have one side that sees itself as capable of domination - as the US/Israel alliance might - that unfortunately - they will. Or at least - they will try.

[PaDem]

39. "Israel has the right to defend herself"

crap.....sorry, wrong thread.

[LSK]

40. K&R

[H2O Man]

41. Peace .....

[lastliberalintexas]

42. Blessed are the Peacemakers

Even a non-Christian like me quotes Jesus all the time.

And for a little perspective, I personally find this incredibly offensive: Every minute the world spends more than a million dollars on war, while 30 children die of starvation. Priorities, people.

[theHandpuppet]

43. "Words of War and Peace" from Women for Peace

http://www.womenforpeace.org/warpeacewords.htm

Let these words soothe your soul and recommit to PEACE!

[Tsiyu]

45. Peace is the answer

But greed and prejudice and a desire for vengeance cloud minds into thinking that some people don't matter.


Here's a song I wrote some months back about the Iraq war and Bush's excuses. I'm agnostic, but i still can imagine "What if"



What if every person matters
not the ones yet to be
but the ones in front of me?

You keep saying there's no god
who'd put your war to shame
But what if god really did
love everybody just the same?

What if every person counted
On a list way up high
Every one that you let die?

You keep saying some are better
and some can be blown away
But what if god's gonna pay you back some day?

Do they haunt you like a trip to hell
the screams of souls as they leave
Or do you imagine your golden hour
Is making babies and mamas and papas scream?

What if every spirit witness
to the misery here
whispers right into god's ear?

You keep saying death is life
to the victims of your crimes

but what if god's been watching all this time?



Peace