The Mystics are Winning Again.

[Beelzebud]

Carl Sagan rolls in his grave.

Global Warming?
Stem Cell Research?
Evolution?

The mystics are winning. People actually think those things are fake, but they belive the following:

Earth is 6000 years old
Psychics are real!
God has blessed our nation.



I feel like an Ionian in ancient Greece. Will we begin putting scientists under house arrest? It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

[ComerPerro]

1. I consider myself an open-minded skeptic

I don't subscribe to anything unless I can see hard evidence of it myself. For example, Evolution is a compelling argument, but I need to see proof before I can put any serious belief in it.


That's why I believe that the world was created in six days by an invisible man in the sky who transcends time and space and who watches our every move day after day.

[Arugula Latte]

27. *spray*

:spray:

[coalition_unwilling]

34. ROTFLMAO -- Thanks for that (n/t)

[saltpoint]

2. The problem is, you can't trust scientists. They're always fiddling

around in a lab, trying to alter the way God intends things to be.

Craven, devious, scientists. Who needs 'em?

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. I blows me away

the number of people who live in denial of reality.

I don't care if someone wants to go back to the dark ages, just don't force everyone else to go with you.

[Scribe]

4. Arrest Scientists? No, it is easier to not fund or equip them.

[anarch]

5. let's not confuse mysticism with superstition

Not to mention idiocy.

[Beelzebud]

6. It's a quote from Carl Sagan's Cosmos series.

Only he was talking about Galileo's days.

[TalkingDog]

9. Thank you. He does undercut his argument by using incorrect terminology

I mean if you want to talk about critical thinking and a consensus reality, then you need to use the language in a way that suggests you follow the tenents you are promoting.

I myself am a Fortean rather than a skeptic. As Neitche suggested: "There is no better soporific and sedative than skepticism." Being a skeptic smacks of the same Fundamentalism and being an unquestioning believer. I prefer the open-minded, yet questioning skepticism of Fortean thought.



My favorite Future Famous Dead Artist: KarenParker

[idgiehkt]

7. hey, the psychics will tell you straight up the earth is older than that.

They know. Don't f*ck with them, lol.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Whoa.

I'm a mystic. Most of the folks I hang out with are mystics. NONE of them believe what you ascribe to mystics. We tend to agree with science about the evolution of things, only we include the evolution of consciousness along with everything else.

I think perhaps you are talking about fundamentalists. You know, those folks who think their way is the only way to go. Mystics accept all-and honor all paths. The head of my Sufi order was given training in Zoroastrianism and learned of Buddhism from His Holiness the Dalai Lama himself.

[anarch]

10. furthermore, a great many scientists sound a lot like mystics

Especially the physicists.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. I know some of them, in fact. eom

[Beelzebud]

12. Ok for those that have NEVER read Carl Sagan's Cosmos, or

Demon Haunted World. It is a term he used to describe the early persecution of science.

Sorry most of you failed to catch the reference.

[lectrobyte]

13. Time to go reread Demon Haunted World

[Beelzebud]

15. Demon Haunted World is fantastic.

I particularly love Chapter 12: The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

Another great chapter is Chapter 23: Maxwell and the Nerds

[lectrobyte]

20. Yes, it's one of those books I think everyone should read.

[Beelzebud]

14. More proof the mystic are winning.

This thread had more responses from "mystics" than people that accept science and reality.

The mystics are winning, even here on DU.

Ah but who cares right? It's more fun to believe in psuedo-science, and religion, than subjects based in rational thought.

[EstimatedProphet]

18. Bullshit

Not one single post in this thread came out seriously in favor of pseudo-science. What people posted here is that you misuse the word 'mystic'.

[Beelzebud]

19. Take it up with Sagan, it was his quote....

[EstimatedProphet]

22. I'm not talking about his quote

You said that the people are posting in favor of pseudo-science. I'm pointing out that they are not.

[LanternWaste]

26. Do you think one precludes the other?

Do you think one precludes the other?

I ask that because you wrote, "It's more fun to believe in psuedo-science, and religion, than subjects based in rational thought." which implies an 'either-or'" statement.


I mean, I'm a Christian, so I assume I'm included under your sobriquet of 'mystic', but I also have a well-grounded faith in Science and "reality".

Or maybe you consider "mystics" those who deny all sciences. Now, I can more easily grasp the sentiment if that's the case, but for my part, I don't know *anyone* who denies all aspects of Rationality and the Sciences.

Am I missing something here? :shrug:

On Edit: I saw your post that refers to you being pissed off about the upcoming stem cell vote. I'm going to assume that you've decided to lash out at everyone who has faith in any religion or anything untesable or unverifiable out of frustration. My mistake.

[EstimatedProphet]

16. That's not mysticism, that's dogmatism

They are being told to believe those things, so they believe them. Complete lack of critical thinking skills. True mystics and scientists aren't that far apart. But dogmatists are the opposit of mystics and scientists.

[flowomo]

17. proof you are totally wrong:

Associated Press

WASHINGTON - Penny Taylor and Kelly Miller scored 22 points apiece to lead the Phoenix Mercury to a 96-83 victory over the Washington Mystics on Wednesday.

Alana Beard scored 23 points for the Mystics, including 10 in an 18-5 spurt that gave Washington a 70-65 lead midway through the third quarter. Taylor scored eight in the fourth quarter for the Mercury.

[Minstrel Boy]

21. Quantum physics sides with the mystics,

and mystics don't say what you ascribed to them.

[Beelzebud]

23. Oh for the love of Rod, it was a Carl Sagan quote.

And Quantum Physics does not side with mystics... They have this thing called mathematics, and observation that they base their views on...

Oh and by the way. "Mystics" are just as bat shit crazy as any other religious person...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystics

[Minstrel Boy]

24. ever listen to yourself?

you sound like a fundamentalist.

[Beelzebud]

25. I sound like someone that has had it with religion ruining modern society.

The stem cell research veto must have did me in today.

[bloom]

29. So basically

You are insulting most artists of any sort - as well as many philosophers. A lot of theories in physics these days sounds pretty darn mystical. Eleven dimensions?

Mystics are not the enemy. They are generally anti-authoritarian people. Some people will insult anybody.

From your link:

"Mysticism from the Greek ???????? "an initiate" (of the Eleusinian Mysteries, ???????? meaning "initiation"<1>) is the pursuit of achieving communion or identity with, or conscious awareness of, ultimate reality, the divine, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, or insight; and the belief that such experience is an important source of knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. Traditions may include a belief in the literal existence of realities beyond empirical perception, or a belief that a true human perception of the world trancends logical reasoning or intellectual comprehension.

... Mysticism is experiential and holistic, and mystical experiences are generally held to be beyond expression; modern philosophy is analytical, verbal, and reductionist. However, this distinction is peculiar to the modern world. Through much of history mystical and philosophical thought were closely entwined. Plato and Pythagoras, and to a lesser extent Socrates, had clear mystical elements in their teachings; many of the great Christian mystics were also prominent philosophers, and certainly Buddha's Sutras and Shankara's 'Crest Jewel of Discrimination' (fundamental texts in Buddhism and Advaitan Hinduism, respectively) display highly analytical treatments of mystical ideas. The rift between mysticism and modern philosophy derives mainly from elements of scientism in the latter: certain branches of philosophy, influenced by the natural sciences, broadly disavow subjective experience as meaningless. That said, several areas of study in philosophy address the same issues that concern the mystic.

Furthermore, Continental philosophy, widely scorned by analytic philosophers, tends to be concerned with issues closely related to mysticism, such as the subjective experience of existence in Existentialism."

[bloom]

33. the Vedic slogan “All in One and One in All”

Schrodinger (1961) claims that the Vedic slogan “All in One and One in All” was an idea that led him to the creation of quantum mechanics.

http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/science_scientistmystics.htm


And Einstein talked about "Cosmic Religious Feeling" - sounds pretty mystical to me.

[Bill McBlueState]

37. but it's just a slogan.

"All in One and One in All" can mean anything you want it to mean.

Schrodinger's most famous contribution,



is a precise mathematical statement. It can be used to make predictions, and scientific experiments have shown those predictions to be accurate. That's why we remember Schrodinger as a great physicist. His idea held up under the weight of the evidence.

When it comes to governing, it's a much better idea to base policy on ideas that are supported by evidence instead of vague sayings that can be taken to mean anything. Schrodinger's equation probably isn't applicable in that sense, but I'd rather decisions about stem cells be made based on the evidence and not vague beliefs about when personhood begins.

[bloom]

39. Schrodinger

"He had a life-long interest in the Vedanta philosophy of Hinduism, which influenced his speculations at the close of What is Life? about the possibility that individual consciousness is only a manifestation of a unitary consciousness pervading the universe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Schrödinger


The point isn't to suggest that science is any less - or to suggest that "vague beliefs" should determine policy - it's that there is a mystical way of seeing the world that can actually contribute to science. People can dismiss that if they want. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science.
- Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955), What I Believe

Some people reject the art/mystical side. I think that they are looking at just one side of the coin.

[Bill McBlueState]

28. k & r

We could use another Carl Sagan.

[Jack from Charlotte]

30. Other examples of that crowd setting back civilizaztion... Galileo, ....

Newton and the burning of the Greek Maps...

Galileo had the audacity to say the Sun was in the center of the universe and the earth revolved around it. Kepler said the same, previously. Them people convict him of anti church activity.

Them people didn't like something Sir Issac Newton said.... like gravity exists.... so they busted him.

I saw a thing on The History channel recently about after them people started taking over Europe. Greece had very accurate maps of the "known" world which them people promptly burned and substituted there own maps which consisted of Jesus on a cross with England being at the head.... etc... It was over 1,000 years until the maps of Europe got back to the quality of the ones them people burned.

And now.... the AWOL/moron and his Rethug crowd.

The good news is no matter how bad them people screw up The US, there is always Europe and Asia to carry on the study of stem Cell research.

[coalition_unwilling]

31. Why be surprised? 70% of Americans say they believe in

"angels"

[novalib]

32. The Washington Mystics Are Winning? Again?

I thought the Washington Mystics had been losing recently.

I guess I need to look at the Sports Pages more.

[bloom]

35. It's a bad quote - and just shows ignorance on Sagan's part

And yours - if you think that mystics are against:

Global Warming?
Stem Cell Research?
Evolution?


I think it's more likely that mystics would take those things AS seriously - if not more seriously than the general population. Being anti-authoritarian - mystics tend to be liberals.

There is nothing that divides mysticism from science - and like I pointed out elsewhere - mysticism inspires scientists.

[Bill McBlueState]

36. Your definition of "mystic" may be different from Sagan's.

Sagan uses "mysticism" to mean the practice of believing things without evidence. That's actually the opposite of science. And I'm sick of having our leaders make policy decisions based on things they believe that either lack evidence or contravene the available evidence.

[Beelzebud]

38. Thank you.

For being more level headed than I came off as today.

When I posted this, Bush had just vetoed stem cell research, and I was pretty much blind with anger.

You are exactly right. People are taking the word "mystic" and applying an entirely different meaning than what Sagan was getting at.

In this regard, he is correct. Mysticism IS believing things without any evidence to support it.

Personally I would never be proud to proclaim myself a "mystic", but I guess some around here don't mind it. To me the word has a negative connotation.