Who Do You Think Killed John F. Kennedy?

[DistressedAmerican]

I have never asked people's thoughts on this historical event around here.

I'd be curious to see what people think.

Who do you think killed JFK?

(I'll list common suggestions. If there are any theories I've not listed, feel free to add suggestions.)

[hippiechick]

1. Co-hort of Military Industrial & BFEE inflitrated CIA ops

:tinfoilhat:

[surfermaw]

6. I go with hippie Chick...

[acmavm]

12. So do I.

[long_green]

65. I too, think a hippie chick was responsible

What better cover could you have? The gunperson probably looked a lot like Edie Brickell.

[DiverDave]

127. Great minds think alike Hippychick

The contract for Haiphong harbor alone was worth 1 Billion dollars...thats 1962 dollars too.
Ollie Stone was right, and Garrison was on the track...gotta stay healthy, I wanna see the reports that were sealed for 75 years.

[JDPriestly]

15. Second -- military industrial complex

Johnson had a very close relationship with certain major U.S. companies who will go unnamed but who profited greatly from Johnson's accession to the presidency.

[hippiechick]

57. Right but they had to have 'insiders' for logitics ..

which is why the CIA or Secret Service or FBI or somebody gave out some 'trip planning' info and then turned a blind eye ...

... and I really and truly believe that while Johnson may or may not have known about it ahead of time, he certainly figured it out soon enough and was scared shitless of what those people could and would do to him if he didn't dance to their tune. That's why he left office such a sad and broken old man, IMO. As much of a bastard as he was, I don't think he really understood the thugs he was playing ball with.


:tinfoilhat:

[blm]

25. exactly right - not regular CIA, but operatives loyal to the BFEE fascists

.

[xxqqqzme]

75. my vote goes here as well.

[mod mom]

88. You have another backer: MI and BFEE faction of CIA.

[hippiechick]

95. An interesting follow up ....

This came to my attention a few years back on some 'Discovery Channel' sort of thing.

Take it for what it's worth .... but it sure makes me :scared:




http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_3.htm

[LSK]

110. you got my vote

:tinfoilhat:

[onenote]

2. according to the rolling stones: you and me

(me being the devil).

[Hippo_Tron]

55. HAHA, I was just thinking that

[flowomo]

3. everybody who reads the Onion knows the answer to this

KENNEDY SLAIN BY CIA, MAFIA, CASTRO, LBJ, TEAMSTERS, FREEMASONS
President Shot 129 Times from 43 Different Angles

[cynatnite]

157. The only real news...

:rofl:

[darkmaestro019]

4. I'm nowhere near as well-read in this as I'd like to be......

I hate "conspiracy theory" because it automatically de-values whatever you're saying, and I've found that according to my semi-functional truth compass that most sites that feature "nontraditional history" (ha) are a mix of logic and insanity......

I think They took him out, because he might've saved us. And I can't think about it without thinking about Tommyknockers when Gardner says something like "it's ALWAYS the Dallas Police..."

[checkmate1947]

5. none of the above

time and those who control it killed him,,,, the world was not ready for Jack Kennedy

[Omaha Steve]

7. Did people forget GHW Bush was on site then ran the CIA b4 becoming Pres?

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush2.htm

[jwirr]

14. Bingo.

[Dinger]

46. I THink GHW * Took A Shot At Ronnie Too

I've heard that discussed also. Guess he was mad he didn't make it to the general election.

[The Revolution]

8. George H. W. Bush. nt

nt

[RPM]

153. seconded

n/t

[the other one]

9. It was a Magic Bullet. Thats right MAGIC!!!

The plot itself was probably hatched in the State Department. I surmise that the plot was created by former Nazi intelligence agents who had been brought to this country after WWII to aid in the fight against communism. Certain CIA agents were involved, but they were probably interested in revenge for the lack of promised air support during the Bay of Pigs invasion. Anti-Castro Cubans were involved for the same reason. Organized crime provided weapons and safe houses for shooters, and Jack Ruby was connected to organized crime. The shooters themselves were probably hired guns who only guessed who the target was. They were probably killed later in the day to guarantee their silence. The Dallas police force was complicit. They did no investigation, but rather accepted Oswald as the lone subject from the word jump. The FBI was instrumental in controlling the flow of information out of Dallas and in to the Warren Commission.

Oh I could go on forever...

[Alexodin]

36. Thats how I see it as well. It was a combination of groups

some people call these groups "the shadow government". You have put a very large complex concept in a nutshell. Not an easy task my friend. Some people believe that such a large group could not have acted in such secrecy but where would they have gone to blow the whistle? Large groups act secretly all the time thats why we have organized crime and it isn't all that often that an inside member rats them out. In this case I believe most of the conspirators were murdered by others. Intelligence agencies are large groups that act in secrecy all the time so in fact such phenomena is common.

[libhill]

50. "Most of the conspirators were murdered by others"...

I agree, hence the long list of mysterious deaths that befell the key witnesses / participants for years after the event.

[TheMightyFavog]

10. It was JFK.

Specifically JFK from an alternate timeline where a Scouser, some obnoxious git with an "H" on his forhead, a guy with pointy teeth dressed like a pimp, and a weird man with a head shaped like a novelty condom interfered with Oswald's shot, thereby saving Kennedy's life. Two years later, JFK was impeached and arrested for his involvement with Marylin Monroe. In order to preserve his legacy, this JFK went back in time to Dallas with the Scouser, dressed as a Police Officer, and shot JFK from the grassy knoll.

"Smeg! I forgot to ask him if there were any curry 'ouses in Dallas!"

[librechik]

11. "secret service officer" in the front seat of the car

delivered the coup de grace, although another assassin shot him in the neck from behind the motorcade.

motive? I vote for option one; also it rcently came out that documents prove Kennedy was pulling out of Nam. Bad for the "BFEE" even then.

[SixStrings]

73. Where did you hear this? I have heard the same thing.

Something about a bullet filled with Shell fish poisoning. When everybody missed the kill shot, the driver just leans back and pulls the trigger on a small concealed gun. It's supposedly caught on the original Zapruder film but has been edited out for the public's viewing.
Why did Jackie keep her mouth shut? The Secret Service was holding her children and she just saw her husbands head blown off - scared shitless probably.
I don't know if this is true, but I do know the official 'story' is so ridiculous as to be comical.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SixStrings]

133. Why did that get deleted? Just curious...

All the poster did was link to a movie of the assasination. Not trying to be obtuse, but what rule was broken?

[kimpossible]

13. According to Thom Hartmann's book, the mob

He makes as good a case as any I've heard in his book, Ultimate Sacrifice.

* Ultimate Sacrifice details a previously unknown "Plan for a Coup in Cuba" authorized by President John Kennedy, run by Robert Kennedy and set for December 1, 1963.
* The Kennedy plan, unique and different from any previously disclosed operation, was—as detailed in a Joint Chiefs of Staff memo—to have included a "palace coup," a provisional Cuban government and, if necessary, a "full-scale invasion" by "invited" US military forces.
* The CIA's code name for their part of the operation, AMWORLD, has never previously appeared, making it one of the most covert operations in United States history.
* Ultimate Sacrifice will detail how the Kennedy plan was penetrated by the three mafia godfathers—Carlos Marcello, Santo Trafficante and Johnny Roselli—being vigorously pursued by Attorney General Robert Kennedy, along with a dozen of their associates, six of whom were also working on the Coup Plan.
* The crime bosses then used parts of the Coup Plan/AMWORLD to arrange JFK’s assassination in a way that would prevent a truly thorough government investigation, in order to protect the Coup Plan, its participants, and national security.
* By using the secrecy surrounding the Plan, the mob bosses would target JFK not only in Dallas but in two earlier attempts, one in Chicago on November 2 and then one in Tampa on November 18, which Ultimate Sacrifice reveals and details for the first time.
* Ultimate Sacrifice reveals why Robert Kennedy told several close associates the name of the Mafia godfather who had his brother killed—but couldn’t do anything about it.
* Ultimate Sacrifice has finally pieced together the whole story by building on the work of the seven governmental committees that have investigated aspects of the assassination, on the labors of former government investigators, and on the four million documents that were declassified in the 1990s, in addition to exclusive interviews with dozens of witnesses and participants including Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Press Secretary Pierre Salinger, and the Kennedys’ closest Cuban exile aide, Harry “Ruiz�? Williams.

[the other one]

16. How did the mob control the Warren Commission?

Well?

The Warren Commission was instrumental in covering up the assassination. What was their motive in protecting the mob?

[ProfessorGAC]

28. Pictures?

Big time politicians with LOTS to lose being compromised by incriminating photographs or proof of graft?

Not saying i agree that it was the mob; not saying i disagree, either. But that is one way the mob could have controlled the commission.
The Professor

[rman]

20. Hartmann's book leaves a lot unexplained

- multiple security stand-downs; FBI, military
- changing the route of the motorcade
- the cover up; including media silence, the Warren commission and messing with the autopsy.

The mob did play a role in it - and the network that did do it is organized like the mafia (cells, need-to-know-basis and all that) - but if "the mob" did all the above, then it means they have infiltrated the agencies and organizations so deeply that they are practically running the country. If that's the case then you call it the mob, but it sure isn't the mob as we used to know it.

[rman]

17. CIA/Oswald/Anti-Castro Forces/Military/FBI/local police...

There's a lot of overlap between the CIA and the Anti-Castro Forces (think Bay of Pigs).

Oswald was part of the team - he was set up to be the patsy.

The military had a hand in the stand-down of additional military security.

It's not the agencies as such, it's 'certain elements within' the agencies, which function largely as one mafia-like network that appears to be directed by big capital interests.

[the other one]

21. The "patsy" is not "part of the team"

Oswald was the fall guy from the start. It appears that he thought he was infiltrating the assassins on behalf of US intelligence. He had his own FBI agent assigned to him, Agent Hosty I believe. I think he really believed he was serving his country. He was painted into looking like a "Lone Nut" long before the assassination. The time in Russia, the very visible confrontation with anti-castro cubans and the TV debate in New Orleans served to give him a history, but he thought it was deep cover.

I can only imagine the thoughts of this 26 year old former Marine as he realized the extent to which he had been used. He fled the book depository in order to meet his FBI contact in the movie theater. Somehow the Dallas police knew that the man who snuck into the theater was not just a vagrant, and sent dozens of officers to arrest him. They knew he was there because that was the plan. He was set up from the start.

No one mourns poor Lee Oswald, who only wanted to serve his country, yet will go down in history as one its worst criminals. They even changed his name: he never included "Harvey" when giving his personal information.

[rman]

31. Stone's "JFK" has it

that Oswald was present when the plan was conceived/presented, where it was explained that one of them had to be sacrificed (was going to be the patsy).
Not that Oswald knew until is was to late, but it seems he did associate with 'mid-level' people who were involved with the assassination.

It may be that i was being inaccurate in calling those people "the team". I didn't exactly mean the team of hitmen and spotters on the ground that day.

Anyway, you explanation does tie up a few loose ends for me.

[long_green]

62. It's interesting that you say that Oswald had his own FBI agent

The FBI is supposed to have put together a list of suspicious persons to watch during Kennedy's visit. Oswald, who worked in a building along the changed route, was tops on the list. I don't know who fired the shots but I do feel that AT BEST the Warren Commission was framing a guilty man; it's primary mission was to protect Hoover's Bureau and the CIA from any blame.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

155. Jack Ruby going in to kill Oswald is all the proof I need of

Mafia involvement...I believe that LBJ was in on the plan as well. I have never seen where anyone publicly discussed why the motorcade route was changed that morning to slow it down and swing it into the street in front of the TSBD..

[sam sarrha]

18. Oswald was BEHIND him, the BACK of his Head came off...shot from the front

a comment about the second shooter theory from the guy that wrote the Sniper Manual for the Army said.. 'he was shot from the front, the brains go that-a-way, been there done that.'

i can not believe anyone voted for Oswald... i believe it was 7 people were shot in police stations after the assignation, one was a black woman screaming at the top of her lungs that she saw another shooter shoot the president.. and why wont anyone take my statement.. she was shot with a police revolver, the police said it was an unfortunate accident. President Ford was the last living member of the Warren Commission

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. President Ford Is Still Alive

And Arlen Specter was on the Warren Commission.

[sam sarrha]

47. . didnt know that but it figures..Im supprised he didnt pull the trigger

[mod mom]

89. Specter was the one who delivered the "single bullet theory" if I'm not

mistaken.

To be quite honest, I never really thought too much of this until discovering DU, but it ties in the BFEE with current events, that anyone who wishes to understand today must be a student of what occurred then.

[mod mom]

93. Arlen Specter and the Single Bullet Theory:

The single bullet theory (also known as the magic bullet theory by the majority of critics and conspiracy theorists) is the crucial element of the Warren Commission theory that only one assassin shot during the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

The theory, generally credited to by Warren Commission staffer Arlen Specter (now a US Senator), posits that a single bullet, known as "Warren Commission Exhibit 399" (also known as "CE399"), caused all of the non-fatal wounds in both President John F. Kennedy and Governor John Connally. It is an important theory because its plausibility has been a popular point of contention. The 1979 House Select Committee on Assassinations Report agreed with the theory, but differed on the time frame.

<snip>



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory

[Spider Jerusalem]

102. Except the back of his head DIDN'T 'come off'.

Nor was he shot from in front.

Look closely: you'll see the front upper right side of Kennedy's head exploding. Which given his position, is consistent with a shot from BEHIND, not in FRONT.



I can't belive so many people cite supposed 'evidence' to support their beliefs when the evidence clearly shows the OPPOSITE of what they claim.

[liberalitch]

19. Oswald.... BUT...... why I voted other.

He was almost certainly a patsy.... a god damn trigger pulling patsy!
Was he the only one there that day? Probably not. It HAD to go right!
Lee was the most likely candidate for anyone who wanted JFK dead.
He had problems.... His wife caught him dry firing the murder weapon out of a window of their home.... practicing. He was easy prey for anyone who APPEARED to espouse his ideas.
NOW, Who wanted the president dead?
The Cubans?
The Mob?
The Military Industrial Complex?
Mobbed up Cuban arms dealers?
Who knows? ....But Lee was the right man for the job.

[the other one]

22. Is that straight from Posner? nt

[liberalitch]

40. Don't know.... never read any of his stuff.

That's straight from me.

[rman]

24. "Lee was the right man for the job"

But you also say others were involved.
Do you think Oswald took the kill shot? Do you think JFK was hit in the head from behind?

Lee was the right man for the job alright - to be the patsy. Not that he's an innocent man, far from it. But it is doubtful that he did hit JFK even once, and highly improbable that he made the kill shot.

[the other one]

27. Oswald never touched a gun that day.

He was told to wait in the second floor break room until he got a call with his orders. That call did not come. 90 seconds after the shooting he was confronted by a police officer in the break room, at which time he was informed that the president had been shot. It is not physically possible for him to have fired the shots, cleaned up the shells and place them on the windowsill, and then run down 4 flights of stairs past people who said they did not see him, and end up calmly sipping a coke - all in just 90 seconds.

He was used. And then he was blamed.

[liberalitch]

41. I disagree.... but even if you're right.....

that implies involvement.

[liberalitch]

39. I think he was there, I think he was shooting....

But I also think that others were too.... they couldn't risk this not going right.... whoever THEY were/are

[sam sarrha]

76. the real issue is the head shot came form the front.. jackie got on the

trunk to get the piece of skull that was blown to the back.. so the head shot was form the front.. his head went back when shot, oswald shot from behind

[Greeby]

26. (VIDEO) These might interest you

Someone has put the monologue from X (Donald Sutherland) in JFK into 4 parts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPO720G5-wM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA0hk3_FZ5M&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oJleQf6nT0&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTuLc0AdGI&mode=related&search=

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. I Think Sirhan, Ray, and Owald All Pulled The Trigger

Were they instigated?


Perhaps.


I remember Arthur Schlessingers' words in A Thousand Days, his history of the Kennedy presidency. He basically said people look for conspiracy theories because it's hard to accept a loser like Oswald could so easily take down such a great man.

Some times Occam's Razor is true.

I do no know the debate between those who believe they were random acts and those that believe they were conspiracies will never be resolved.

[Virginia Dare]

33. I think you may be right about that...

but if you do a little research on the CIA/Military mind control experiments that were being conducted post-WWII, and what happened to some of the people that were involved in the project, it kind of makes you go hmmmm.

[yurbud]

68. it's funny that we had a decade of "lone nuts" who took out lefties

and ended with potential Nixon spoiler George Wallace.

Were all those nuts subconsciously Republicans?

[jobycom]

71. Not that odd. The lefties were the ones stirring things up, so they would

be the one to draw hatred. When the Repubs took over, people shot at them, too, but missed. Ford, Reagan, Wallace (though I know what you are saying about Wallace being a Nixon spoiler).

There are stories that people have gone after Clinton, HW Bush, George W Bush, Jesse Jackson, and no telling who else. The SS is better, bigger, and has more toys nowadays, so things don't get through much anymore.

[yurbud]

117. Why would anyone go after W?

Righties love him and lefties know it would make him a martyr for the Tard Nazi cause.

[libhill]

129. Maybe they were "Manchurian Republicans"....

n/t

[yurbud]

132. what's sad is after seeing the new MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE...

it was obvious corporations don't need to brainwash people to get them to be their slaves--they can just pay them.

[jobycom]

70. I think you are right. They pulled the trigger. Whether there was more

to why they did it, don't know.

I worked for a while for a former senator who was in the motorcade, sitting beside LBJ when it happened. He would rarely talk about it. When someone asked, he would say that people should praise JFK for his life and worry less about his death. But he spoke often enough on it--he had no doubt that Oswald fired the shots. He heard them, he saw what happened, he saw where everyone looked, and he had a great vantage point, obviously. He never waivered, he was completely sure that Oswald fired the shots.

However, he would never answer whether he thought anyone else was involved.

He also claimed LBJ lied to the WC. LBJ said he was leaning over to pick up a cufflink when the shots were fired, and the SS agents jumped in the car and held him down, so he never saw anything. Yarborough says that wasn't true, that LBJ was waiving to the crowd. LBJ lied about everything so often that there's no telling why he lied here. Yarborough told some people that LBJ was just trying to protect the SS, who he felt had gotten a bum rap, from charges of being slow to respond. But that was just Yarborough's guess.

We may never know. Then again, if there is a conspiracy, who knows what will turn up in a diary or trunk or attic one day. Look how long it took to prove Napoleon was murdered.

[lonestarnot]

30. Bushitler's big bushitler daddy was in Dallas that day.

[libhill]

32. The driver shot him -

it's right there on the Zapruder film, plain as day. But there were other shooting teams involved, indicating conspiracy. Maybe they missed, and the driver had to make sure of the kill...?

[Mind_your_head]

100. Who was the driver? Now that you mention it, I don't think I've

ever heard his (her?) name identified before. Is he/she still alive?

[libhill]

101. I believe his (the drivers) name was

William Greer. A Secret Service agent. A lot of web sites and independent researchers emphasize that if you watch the Zapruder film and concentrate on Greer (the driver) rather than on Kennedy, you will see him turn around, with what appears to be a nickel plated pistol of some sort, in his left hand, and fire a shot. A lot of skeptics try to say it's a trick of light, a reflection off of the top of the head of the Agent who was siting beside Greer. But if that is true then that guys head must have been flat as a board. I thought it was a load of bull when I first happened upon that theory, but as has been said, seeing is believing. :) Oh, and on edit, Greer passed on some years ago, not sure when. Cancer I think it was....

[Mind_your_head]

112. Interesting. Thank you for the information.

I will do that (watch the Zapruder film again and pay close attention to the driver (Greer). When I've watched the film before I never thought to look at the driver, I was always looking at the "main characters" 1) JFK and 2) Jackie.

[libhill]

113. Same with me...

that's why I had a hard time accepting the "Greer kill shot" theory. I have seen the Zapruder film countless times, but I always watched J.F.K. and Jackie, and never even looked at Agent Greer. And I suppose it could be an optical illusion, but it sure as hell looks to me as though Greer is firing a pistol over his right shoulder. Even skeptics can see it, but as I said, they always explain it away as "tricks of light" or "optical illusions".

[deaniac21]

34. It was either Fiddle or Faddle out of jealousy.

[liberalitch]

45. Heckel or Jeckel.....

He was caught in the crossfire of a lover's spat

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. I don't know

but GHWB paid the check.

[Freedomofspeech]

37. Bill Clinton....

he is personally responsible for all the evils of the world. And that's the truth, just ask the RW.

[liberalitch]

43. AGAIN..... the CLENIS!

[givemebackmycountry]

38. Don't you know? It was Bill and Hillary!

Tipper got the gun and Al bought the ammo.

Liberals did it to make the Republicans look bad.

:sarcasm:

[DistressedAmerican]

42. Damn Now I Wanna Change My Vote To The CLENIS!

:rofl:

[liberalitch]

44. Oh, how I long for the days of blow jobs and travel scams!

[yurbud]

48. really two questions: who ordered and who did

[libhill]

51. Who ordered it is the real question...

who and why. How the assassination went down is really irrelevant. The shooters were just "technicians", not being told anything more than what they just had to know to get the job done.

[yurbud]

60. yeah, like "who was the first pilot to drop a bomb on Pearl Harbor?"

interesting but doesn't change main point of the history.

[libhill]

66. Exactly -

thank you....

[yurbud]

49. Didn't Church or Pike committees address this?

[AngryAmish]

52. Darryl Revok

[Initech]

53. My theory is Bush, Oswald, and Ruby all knew each other.

And the whole thing was as coreographed as a Backstreet Boys video.

Acting CIA officers are supposed to disclose where they are at all times.

There's no record of where George HW Bush was on November 22nd, 1963.

Then Barbara Bush admitted that yeah, they were in Dallas that day.

Why were they there? Location scouting.

So my theory is - as an acting CIA officer, he knew the exact route the limo was taking from Love Field to Dealy Plaza, and that he only had one chance to do this.

So he went out to Dallas the night before and met with Ruby and Oswald. Knowing that he only had one chance, Oswald took the shot, but purposefully missed.

Then Bush, knowing that Oswald had missed, fired on the limo himself and fled the scene.

Then a year later, Oswald was murdered by this guy Jack Ruby, and my theory on that was to shut him up. Oswald was getting ready to squeal and blow the whole case wide open.

The other thing is - where's the murder weapon? If this theory is true, then someone would have seen the gun Bush used. I think Bush has kept it on him this entire time.

[DemonFighterLives]

59. Oswald was killed just days later- I forget exactly

I voted for cia/mafia, but it was only elements of each and several other players. I originally thought nixon was the leader of the pack, but later had to believe that Johnson knew and poppy was deeply involved.

I am amazed that 20% here believe Oswald was the culprit. My theory is that the younger set has come to believe that. I had to argue with one of my nieces who was damn sure that Oswald did it. The text books after-all have the story. :rofl:

I follow rman and the other one as having hit closest to the truth.

[donsu]

54. poppy and his neo con band of criminals

nt

[hedgehog]

56. Oswald denied being the shooter

As far as I know, every other assassin proudly proclaimed his/her deed. The fact that Oswald was shot before he ever had much of a chance to talk is significant. Ruby kept quiet. No official ever showed up to question James Earl Ray before he died although a Congressional Committee found good reason to suspect a conspiracy in the death of MLK.

[Ravy]

58. I think the secret service did it by accident.

There is a book "Mortal error" that makes a pretty good case for it.

[ProfessorGAC]

61. Really?

I've never heard of that book. Could you give a quick synopsis of the thesis of that book? An accidental shooting of the president by his own bodyguards is a hard thing to visualize.
The Professor

[Ravy]

69. Sure.. it has been a while since I read it...

but the gist was that Oswald fired and missed, a secret service agent in a car reached for his rifle and it accidentally discharged striking the president. Sounds implausible, but the author made a good case, I thought.

here is a blurb from Amazon.com:


... Mortal Error , while much more technical in content, is another fascinating account of what happened in Dallas. Menninger skillfully summarizes the research findings of ballistics expert Howard Donahue, who spent 25 years reexamining Warren Commission evidence, the Zapruder film, and other materials. Donahue's startling conclusion is that the fatal headshot was accidentally fired by special agent George Hickey, who was in the car behind Kennedy's. Donahue shows where the Warren Commission went wrong in its original interpretations and answers critics who question the "pristine" bullet anomaly. Donahue initially wondered why a ballistics expert was not called upon during the initial investigation. He now believes that Robert Kennedy, among others, did not want this tragic accident to become known. Donahue's findings were published in the Baltimore Sun in 1977 but engendered no follow-up studies by government officials. While many questions remain, these two books are substantial additions to the field and both are highly recommended for most libraries.
- Gary D. Barber, SUNY at Fredonia Lib.
Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc.

[ProfessorGAC]

72. Thanks!

Well, i learned something new today!
The Professor

[OzarkDem]

92. I read it too, it was interesting

He pointed out that the ballistics were different for the bullets that struck JFK. The one that killed him was of the type the Secret Service uses - it does big damage on impact - for shooting someone at close range to disable them and not injure bystanders.

The SS agents had stayed up late partying the night before and were hung over and sleep deprived. Kennedy wanted them to ride in the car behind, instead of on the running board of the Presidential car. When the agents heard the shots from Oswald's gun, they had to jump out of their car and run up to Kennedy's. One of the agents may have accidentally discharged his gun and hit Kennedy as he was trying to get up there.

It does explain a lot, including why everyone wanted to cover it up. There would be no point in blaming the agent, if it were a tragic accident.

The guy who wrote the book was a very well respected expert in ballistics, IIRC. He's also the same person who explained the "magic bullet" by showing that Connelly was not sitting directly in front of Kennedy, but off to one side and was partially turned to the rear when he was hit.

[JVS]

63. Using the Mafia to get W Virginia from HHH in the primaries, and then...

repaying them by sicing his brother on them seems to be a reasonable explanation for why the Mafia would kill him.

[norml]

64. The CIA answers are too divided up.

Of course the CIA worked with other people, and you left out military intelligence.

[TheWraith]

67. You forgot one--Nixon.

There's an old rule of criminal investigations called "Cui bono," latin for "Who benefits?" In this case, the person who had the most to gain is Nixon. JFK humiliated Nixon by beating him in the 1960 election, and both Kennedy and his brother stood in the way of Nixon ever having another chance at the White House. I'd speculate that whoever pulled the trigger, Nixon was somewhere at the top of the food chain.

[schmuls]

74. I voted "other" because I think an agent of the Federal Reserve

did it. He was trying to expose the fraud!

[rman]

122. Others besides the Fed had more incentive:

JFK's withdrawal from Vietnam, and dealing with Castro diplomatically rather than by sabotage, assassination and invasion, as performed/attempted by the CIA/mafia Anti-Castro movement.

The discussion about Vietnam withdrawal is on tape:
http://www.whitehousetapes.org/clips/1963_1104_jfk_vietnam_memoir.html

[Swamp Rat]

77. Hmm...

[Gabi Hayes]

78. who dat man?

I have an interesting Oswald/Crescent City Garage story, swamp.

[Swamp Rat]

79. Go for it, brah

I'm all ears... though I may have heard it already. RE Octafish. ;)

[Gabi Hayes]

81. very peripheral, but.....a guy I know grew up in NO, then became a cop.

Crescent City Garage was part of his beat. He'd check in there fairly frequently around lunch time, and there was a guy in there who'd often be reading gun magazines, and my friend would talk to him every so often, so had somewhat of a recollection of him. This was in the time frame during which Oswald was in New Orleans, before he moved to Texas. After the assassination, he realized that the guy was Oswald.

I have some other info on this that sounds very tinfoilish, because the same guy became a US Marshall between then and the time LHO moved to Dallas.....I'm going to give him a call and have him re-tell the story, cause it's very bizarre.

some background on the Cresecent City Garage:

http://www.law.uga.edu/academics/profiles/dwilkes_more/jfk_22destiny.html

The Warren Report saw nothing significant in Oswald’s sojourn in New Orleans in 1963, and required but six pages to narrate the story of his stay. Its story is as follows. Oswald arrived in New Orleans by bus on April 25 and soon was joined by his pregnant wife and child. He found a job at the Reily Coffee Company in May but was fired in July after spending too many of his working hours at the Crescent City Garage, next door to the coffee company, talking with an owner of the garage, Adrian Alba.
.......
Three places Oswald frequented in New Orleans, the Newman Building at 544 Camp Street, the Reily Coffee Company, and the Crescent City Garage, were all but a few blocks from the CIA’s New Orleans offices.

[Swamp Rat]

82. Thanks

I barely remember the Cresecent City Garage, as I was an embryo at the time. :D

[Gabi Hayes]

84. I added some more on the tie-in. IIRC, there may have been some

connections with the garage owner, Bannister, and others, involving, possibly gun-running.

I have to split, but will see what I can find on this. It WAS part of Oswald's nexus when he was in NO, however, and it's been speculated that he may have thought he was "investigating" certain activities while being played for a patsy

sure is a fun story, though, yes?

and who IS that person in your original JFK printup? I can't recognize him

EDIT: from another link, which brings back some memories....

The FBI told us Oswald, in the summer of 1963, worked at
Reilly Coffee, was fired, and handed out Fair Play for Cuba literature
in support of Castro. (RIGHT 21) But the FBI didn't tell us that nearly
everyone with whom Oswald came in contact in 1963 in New Orleans was
connected with US intelligence.

Reilly Coffee employee William Monahan, an ex-FBI Agent, reported
Oswald's employment to the FBI. FBI Agent Milton Kaack interviewed
Oswald's landlord, Jesse Garner, a few weeks after Oswald arrived.
Adrian Alba owned the Crescent City Garage where the Secret Service,
FBI, and CIA parked their cars. Alba witnessed an unknown FBI agent,
using a government car from his garage, hand packages to Oswald on two
separate occasions.

Oswald was seen in Guy Bannister's office on several occasions by
Bannister's secretary and girlfriend, Delphine Roberts, as well as
several Bannister employees. Former CIA Agent William Gaudet saw Oswald
engaged in "deep conversation with Bannister". Gaudet's identity was
hidden by the FBI for years--perhaps because he and Oswald obtained
visas to Mexico on the same day.
http://home.wi.rr.com/harveyandlee/NID98.txt

not vouching for the accuracy of this speech, but it is heavily dependent on documents, primary-source interviews, and repeats much of what I've read elsewhere.

it's an interesting compilation

[Swamp Rat]

86. GHW Bushler

:hi:

[Gabi Hayes]

87. danke! I can see now, in larger format....also, I added some

more stuff to the link you just answered.

[Octafish]

143. Poppy Bush

... for starters, would make a great grand jury witness...

George Herbert Walker Bush told the FBI
he heard someone named James Parrott threaten to kill President Kennedy.
Of course, Poppy didn't mention it until an hour after JFK was dead.
Then, he said he was driving to Dallas.
My source is the FBI.



No wonder Poppy doesn't remember where he was on November 22, 1963.

MORE: http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush.htm

Here's where Poppy was on November 23, 1963.
Talking his pimply ass off to J Edgar Hoover about the pro- and anti-Castro Cuban communities in Miami.
My source is the FBI.



Here are transcripts of the above memos, without all the tags and mimeograph blots:

TO: SAC, HOUSTON DATE: 11-22-63

FROM: SA GRAHAM W. KITCHEL

SUBJECT: UNKNOWN SUBJECT;
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN F. KENNEDY


At 1:45 p.m. Mr. GEORGE H. W. BUSH, President of the Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company, Houston, Texas, residence 5525 Briar, Houston, telephonically furnished the following information to writer by long distance telephone call from Tyler, Texas.

BUSH stated that he wanted to be kept confidential but wanted to furnish hearsay that he recalled hearing in recent weeks, the day and source unknown. He stated that one JAMES PARROTT has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston.

BUSH stated that PARROTT is possibly a student at the University of Houston and is active in political matters in this area. He stated that he felt Mrs. FAWLEY, telephone number SU 2-5239, or ARLINE SMITH, telephone number JA 9-9194 of the Harris County Republican Party Headquarters would be able to furnish additional information regarding the identity of PARROTT.

BUSH stated that he was proceeding to Dallas, Texas, would remain in the Sheraton-Dallas Hotel and return to his residence on 11-23-63. His office telephone number is CA 2-0395.

# # #


Date: November 29, 1963

To: Director
Bureau of Intelligence and Research
Department of State

From: John Edgar Hoover, Director

Subject: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
NOVEMBER 22, 1963

Our Miami, Florida, Office on November 23, 1963, advised that the Office of Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in Miami advised that the Department of State feels some misguided anti-Castro group might capitalize on the present situation and undertake an unauthorized raid against Cuba, believing that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy might herald a change in U. S. policy, which is not true.

Our sources and informants familiar with Cuban matters in the Miami area advise that the general feeling in the anti-Castro Cuban community is one of stunned disbelief and, even among those who did not entirely agree with the President's policy concerning Cuba, the feeling is that the President's death represents a great loss not only to the U. S. but to all of Latin America. These sources know of no plans for unauthorized action against Cuba.

An informant who has furnished reliable information in the past and who is close to a small pro-Castro group in Miami has advised that these individuals are afraid that the assassination of the President may result in strong repressive measures being taken against them and, although pro-Castro in their feelings, regret the assassination.

The substance of the foregoing information was orally furnished to Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency and Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency on November 23, 1963, by Mr. W. T. Forsyth of this Bureau.

# # #

The Truth is an awesome thing.

Truth is what keeps Democracy alive.

NATURAL BORN
LIAR & TRAITOR

[blues90]

80. For me this is so long ago

It is like we are in another world and that even though that was so horrid and depressing , I was in high school that day , it does not seem to matter anymore to me . It hurts to much to think about what's going on today that thinking about the past just adds even more dispair for me .

It's really a wonderful world we live in isn't it ?

[libhill]

97. It matters to me...

because the men who killed Kennedy are the same ones responsible for the shitty state of affairs in this country today. And you can take that to the bank. Ever notice it's not conservative Repukes getting knocked off? Sorry, but I don't believe in "coincidence".

[blues90]

98. sure it that respect it matters but

This was 40 years ago nd what it demonstrates is how these people succeed working under the ground . You see they had all these years to plan and scheme , the US was still in working order and they had time to perfect their plans and even test the results .

Right now we have the effects of their plans dropped on us and we live in a mess with nothing making sense and we don't have time to plan and test the success rate as they had . It's one thing to learn but in order to learn you must deal with the situation we have now and pour all effort into this or we won't be to concerned how Kennedy was murdered and I doubt we will ever find the truth to that one .

I not saying we should forget or dismiss the past or it's a personal waste of time to try to uncover any truth it's just that so much time has gone by since Kennedy was murdered that even if you the people involved are still alive they would never face jail time , they got away with it . So if you intend to stop them form further destruction then you need to focus on what they are doing now and name them .

[libhill]

99. I think it's a safe bet

that you could start with Poppy Bush and go from there. But I agree with you in a sense, as most of the original movers and shakers are probably pushing up daisies now.

[blues90]

107. I'm sure papa bush was the head

Of the entire Kennedy death , and I believe it had all to do with military hardware and of course Kennedy's ability to have a positive effect of the people offering plans for the poor . These criminals don't want poor people or even middle class people in the plan at all .

But father bush is now old and well past conviction so he got away with it all , just as bush jr will get off clean and go on with his live no matter what he does or did .

[Jara sang]

83. George Brown of Kellogg, Brown & Root.

Now known as Halliburton. He had the most to gain. He owned LBJ and Sam Rayburn. This is probably part of the Military Industrial Complex theory. I read an interesting account of Kennedy driving himself(no Secret Service)to Sam Rayburn's Middleburg estate where had Sunday lunch with LBJ and Brown.

[Full Metal]

85. Bring me any evidence that Oswald wasn't the ......

..... shooter and I'll shread it courtesy of the history channel.

Oliver stone is full of shit

[Gabi Hayes]

90. with your ''shreadder?''

the Posner shreadder?

funny stuff!

[Ahpook]

104. "courtesy of the history channel."

Paid?

If not.. you are losing out on some bucks.

[Jara sang]

135. I'm not saying that George Brown pulled the trigger.

But He definitely had a hand in ordering the hit.

[Jara sang]

134. Correction. It was George Brown's estate in Middleburg.

I've visited the house myself.

[ronnykmarshall]

91. Ari Onassis

'nuff said!

[yodermon]

94. it was cancer-man

don't you guy watch the x-files, c'mon.

[KAT119]

103. LBJ!! I was going to Georgetown Univ. at the time, and lived in a large

Georgetown house w/ roommates who were all working on the' Hill '-and everyone of them immediately said it was LBJ.

However,there are photos of GHW Bush nonchalantly standing by the Dallas Book Depository on that day, and when ever he was- in later years -asked by Larry King, for instance, (or newspaper interviews) where he was on THAT day, he always says that he cannot remember. Which literally makes him the ONLY adult in USA who does not! Most suspicious for this former CIA man.

[BringEmOn]

105. Poppy Bush was there...

http://www.tomflocco.com/Docs/63/BushJfkBookDepo.htm

[Sir Jeffrey]

106. I voted "other"...

It was elements of the CIA, operating in conjunction with the Mafia and the Anti-Castro Cubans.

Some of the major players, according to Mark Lane, were:

E Howard Hunt- Operational side...might have pulled a trigger
Dick Nixon- Helped coordinate as revenge for the Mafia putting Kennedy over the top in Chicago
George HW Bush- Obviously helped cover it up...probably helped logistically
Allen Dulles- Had enough "pull", even after being fired, to give orders pulling back the secret service protection

Oswald was an FBI informant working with Hoover to help inflitrate the anti-Castro training camps. The CIA found out about it, framed him, and threatened Hoover to keep quiet about it. Oswald was a patsy, and was probably a patriot who found out what the CIA was doing and paid the price for trying to stop it.

Google the Hoover memo and you'll see Hoover "denying" any knowledge of the anti-Castro group's involvement while placing George HW Bush in the fucking CIA in 1963.

I'm sure I'm leaving many things out, but this is a quickie post.

I saw a fabulous summary of what really happened a few weeks ago. Google "JFK II" and watch it for yourself. Pretty neat (albeit utterly depressing) video.

[tom_paine]

108. The George HW Bush Wing of the CIA

Poppy Augustus got an HQ Building named after him, the first proto-Emperor (though we didn't know it at the time...his reign consisted of a lot of behind the scenes work and the intial assaults on the system of checks and balances).

His son got to wear the first Crown in America in 224 1/2 (now 230) years.

The Kennedys who got within whiffing distance of the Presidency got a bunch of bullets for their trouble.

Ironically, letting poor MJ Kopechne drown may have saved Ted for a lifetime of reasonably good work. If he had any kind of a chance at the Presidency, he would have been Wellstoned, too.

Like JFK Jr.

In truth all things are possible but one: the official story. That undoubtedly contains some or all lies.

[KamaAina]

109. Every American of that age knows where s/he was when JFK died

except one. George H.W. Poppy Bush. He was "somewhere in Texas, I think". :sarcasm:

[NJ Democrats]

111. CIA-Cuban Exiles

[StellaBlue]

114. GREAT poll

Maybe The Greatest.

I am shocked that so many people thought Oswald acted alone. :wtf:

[greccogirl]

115. The Mafia.

Kennedy took their help and then sent Bobby after them. A foolish thing to do.

[rman]

121. How did the mafia arrange for

- multiple security stand-downs; FBI, military
- changing the route of the motorcade
- the cover up; including media silence, the Warren commission and messing with the autopsy.
?

[Behind the Aegis]

116. You forgot...the Mossad.

:evilgrin: I couldn't help it! Feeling frisky!

[AtomicKitten]

118. The History Channel had a 2-part piece on this that was

probably the most comprehensive discussion I have ever heard or read anywhere. It implicates the CIA and Johnson. Oliver Stone's story took a wrong turn with the Cubans. The fact that the evidence was locked up and then disappeared is as creepy as it is disgusting.

I still love Kevin Costner's speech in JFK before the jury admonishing them not to forget their dying king.

[rman]

120. How did Stone's story take a wrong turn with "the Cubans"?

Stone doesn't so much say that "the Cubans" were involved, but rather the anti-Castro movement. CIA was doing the anti-Castro operations, making use of various criminal elements that had an interest in regaining Cuba as their haven (this is well known from many sources - see pre-Castro mafia presence on Cuba), and that some resources (people, money, weapons, transportation) from that group were used in the assassination, for which there is more than a little evidence.

[AtomicKitten]

124. Stone stopped with the prosecution of Clay Shaw.

The documentary on the History Channel I mentioned presented Stone's scenario as ancillary to the plot that they laid out with the real perpetrators being CIA/military industrial complex. (I meant anti-Castro but was thinking of the "bad elements" Cuban characters; I'm tired :)).

[rman]

128. Stone's scenario does not exclude the CIA and MIC.

You can see it first-hand in his film "JFK".

It shows that Garrisson's investigation does get close to the CIA (Shaw, among others), but if i recall correctly the evidence was legally inconclusive. The investigation does stop short of the MIC - not surprising since those people are practically untouchable.

But Garrisson's conversations with "X" (Prouty) make it clear the whole thing reaches up to the highest levels.

see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPO720G5-wM&mode=related&search=

[Awsi Dooger]

119. This is scarier than how the other side votes

Oswald acted alone. The simple answer is almost always correct. I'd love for the truth to be revealed tomorrow so I could take all the sucker cash. Looks like the consensus here would allow me to get above even money, instead of giving 1/1000 or higher, which would be be true odds. Unbelievable.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[libhill]

130. If Oswald acted alone -

then the tooth fairy is real, and the moon is made of green cheese. You want facts? The fact is, Oswald was a crappy shot. He barely made the lowest qualification on the rifle range in boot camp. And that was after several attempts. The first time he drew "Maggie's Drawers", which loosely interpreted, means he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door with a howitzer. Trained snipers and marksmen have tried to pull off what Oswald was alleged to have done, using the same type of weapon, and couldn't make it. And his Manlicher - Carcanno rifle is widely acknowledged by people who know guns, to have been a cheap piece of crap rifle, manufactured during the World War Two era by the Italian government. But believe what you want to, I understand that some people can't accept that our Government would do such a thing. I at one time wouldn't accept that our Government could torture prisoners of war. They can and they do. And try to understand, that even 40 years on this atrocity still stirs a lot of emotion. For my money, I'd like to have seen the real perps hanged from the nearest available lamppost. Now go ahead and flame me, I know I have it coming....

[Spider Jerusalem]

131. You should try getting your information...

from somewhere besides Oliver Stone films; Oswald qualified as a sharpshooter (twice) while he was in the Marine Corps (that's 48 or 49 out of 50 aimed shots on a 200-yard target in rapid fire with iron sights, by the way--not something someone who was a poor shot could do).

And you may not be aware of the fact that the crucial matter of the timing of the shots has been called into question by recent re-analysis; it was thought that there was only a gap of 5.6 seconds between the first and last shots, but more recent study has shown that it may have been as much as eight seconds--and even if it were only 5.6 seconds, that doesn't make it 'impossible'; it takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the bolt of a Carcano, and the fraction of time used in ejecting the spent cartridge and loading a fresh one into the chamber is used for target reacquisition. And the Carcano may not be the world's best rifle, but with a scope, using boxes or a window ledge as a rest, and firing on a target less than 100 yards away, a marksman of Oswald's known capability should have no trouble hitting two out of three shots.

[libhill]

137. Oliver Stone?

Try "Crossfire, the Plot That Killed Kennedy", by Jim Marrs. And "qualification" doesn't mean a whole lot, as there are different stratas - Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, etc. Earning the lowest qualification doesn't make you Hawk eye. On edit - I have never seen "J.F.K." nor am I a fan of Oliver Stone films. But the way it makes people squirm he must have been onto something. I'll have to put that on my must see list. If the Government has nothing to hide, what is it they're trying to hide? And why all the controversy and mud slinging when the film first came out? Give me a damn break here. If you sincerely buy the government line that "Oswald did it", then take a chill pill and get off of Stones case. After all, it's only a movie, right? Uh huh.

[Spider Jerusalem]

141. When you use a phrase identical to one that appears in a film...

then I'm going to assume you got it from the film, especially when the original source is a book I haven't read (and by the way, 49 out of 50 hits on target isn't 'the lowest qualification; it's almost expert marksman).

[Full Metal]

138. Good somone saw JFK and believed it

Time for a vivisection:

then the tooth fairy is real, and the moon is made of green cheese. You want facts? The fact is, Oswald was a crappy shot. He barely made the lowest qualification on the rifle range in boot camp.

That's a lie Oswald was an exceptional shot I've seen the records in the History channel special debunking every single point in the JFK movie it featured a representation of one of Oswald's actual targets which eerily enough resembled the small of a mans back and the top of their head just as Kennedy would of appeared from Oswalds vantage point in the book depository, he was qualified as a Marine sharpshooter.

And that was after several attempts. The first time he drew "Maggie's Drawers", which loosely interpreted, means he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door with a howitzer. Trained snipers and marksmen have tried to pull off what Oswald was alleged to have done, using the same type of weapon, and couldn't make it. And his Manlicher - Carcanno rifle is widely acknowledged by people who know guns, to have been a cheap piece of crap rifle, manufactured during the World War Two era by the Italian government.

The gun used was very similar to the rifle which Oswald would have trained with in the marines, also in the special an oldman using the same rifle made the shot well under the alotted time aiming carefully on the third and final kill shot (as Oswald would have done) debunking the myth that the first shot would have always been the most accurate.

But believe what you want to, I understand that some people can't accept that our Government would do such a thing. I at one time wouldn't accept that our Government could torture prisoners of war. They can and they do. And try to understand, that even 40 years on this atrocity still stirs a lot of emotion. For my money, I'd like to have seen the real perps hanged from the nearest available lamppost. Now go ahead and flame me, I know I have it coming

Of course our government has done bad things but this is not one of them.

[libhill]

139. You'll ever convince me Oswald acted alone..

and as for "the History Channel", they've done programs on Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark too. That doesn't mean those myths are historical. The History Channel doesn't hold much water with me.

[Full Metal]

140. I saw the documentation....

.....and the taking the shots in the allotted time with my own two eyes.

[Octafish]

144. When was that?

Were you working for the government?



Bonus question: Which one of these does the government claim fell from JFK's body Connally's body in Parkland Memorial Hospital?

[Full Metal]

145. I saw it on the history channel

are they in on the consiracy too?

And the answer is none of the above the bullet is flattened it was also in the special here it is:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CE399butt.jpg#file

[Octafish]

146. Here's the side view.

It appears to have been fired into cotton wadding.



BTW: The History Channel also reported that Iraq had WMDs, just like George W Bush said.

[Full Metal]

148. Ya it was clearly flattened and deformed in the non-deceptive angle:

The non-deformed bullet: The bullet fired from Oswald's gun was a 6.5mm 'Full Metal Jacket' bullet. Using the exact same ammo and gun, the Discovery Channel team used ballistic gel and human bones to line up the same shot. Striking ribs and gel on the 2 targets, including muscle sinew and cartlidge, the bullet was more deformed than the one found on the gurney, but only slightly. This was determined to be caused by the bullet striking 2 entire ribs in the target dummy, instead of just the one in the actual shooting. Also, the 'pristine' bullet found on the gurney was not pristine at all, but was in fact quite bent and flattened, with part of the lead internals deformed out of the casing. So much for pristine.

http://planet-geek.com/archives/000626.html

And I guess the CIA got to the history channel too. lmfao

[blonndee]

149. Which History Channel documentary are you referring to?

n/t

[Full Metal]

150. The one that debunks the JFK movie line by line

I forget the exact name though.

[blonndee]

151. Well, there are three of them.

I was wanting to read up on it to see what the reviews and analyses of it are, and who produced it.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

152. that's so convincing

not

[arcos]

125. "Just a man with something to prove, slightly bored and severely confused"

Any other Postal Service fan here?

:hide:

[goclark]

136. CIA with the backing of the NEOCONS

[porphyrian]

142. Bubba Ho-Tep.

That was after the faked assassination and the operation that put a bag of sand in his head and gave him a racial change. He died battling the mummy right beside Elvis.

[MGD]

147. Karl Rove for sure.

It's straight outa his playbook.

[rasputin1952]

156. There are so many scenarios, some make sense and others are

just plain so far out there, it is hard to find them credible in any way.

But one of the things that stands out in my mind, is when Oswald was questioned by the press...when asked if he had shot the president, he looked a littel startled, and when he was told he was charged w/shooting Kennedy, he looked downright shocked. He recovered quickly, but there is a LOT to be said as to initial reaction.

I don't know who shot Kennedy, but I am almost positive it was not Oswald, although he may have knbown something.

[Generarth]

158. I've put down the CIA, although I tend to think it's more complicated

it might have been them, it might not have been them. Definitely forces traditionally lined up on their side of the ledger though.