I don't know how to say this

[cali]

but I'll try.

Criticize Israel to your heart's content. Deem it a terrorist, rogue state. Heap opprobrium on it.

But, please, don't support H'zbollah.

H'bollah is an organization who represents a philosophy that all humanists,all liberals, should oppose with every fiber of their beings. H'zbollah seeks to exercise control through a fundamentalist regime intimately related to the Taleban. If you've read anything about what life was like in Afghanistan under the Taleban, you know how terrible life was under that regime. Humanism and liberalism believe in the right of humans to express themselves in their lives. H'zbollah's philosophy is antithetical to these tenets.

So support Palestinians right to live free in their own sovereign state: I certainly do, but don't support radical fundamentalist organizations. To do so makes a mockery out of what liberals claim to hold dear.

And before the chorus of "no one really supports H'zbollah" starts up; yes, I've seen many posts that either come right out and say it, or imply support. Here's an exerpt from one of them:

"I support their social work, building hospitals, schools, feeding the hungry, etc. I support every step they take toward peace, however small, I support their demands when I consider them just, I support people's right to elect them, just like I support Israeli peoples right to elect their own war criminals like Sharon and Olmert, right or wrong. I support democracy.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=364&topic_id=1666787&mesg_id=1667611

[akushuki]

1. Hatred of Israel over Palestine blinds some people with Hezbollah N/T

[Robbien]

3. Bull

Since when does being against bombs killing people turn into some kind of blind hatred of Israel and love for Hezbollah?

[akushuki]

8. You may find it unimaginable but simply check out some of the posts of DU

All debates over Israeli military force in Lebanon I've been involved in turned into a debate over Palestine and I wasnt the one to bring Palestine up.

[Robbien]

12. Since the first bomb being dropped in this conflict was dropped on a beach

in Palestine and bombs are still being dropped on Palestine even today, I would expect the debate would of course include Palestine.

[akushuki]

15. Was that before or after Palestinian militants attacked Israelis and took

one captive? Was it before or after Palestinian militants started firing THEIR rockets into Israel?

[Robbien]

24. The little girl lost her family to the bomb before Israel took captive

two Palistinians; then Palistine took one soldier and fired rockets, then Israel took out all power and clean water and dozens of people of Palistine by dropping bombs.

Please keep up.

[akushuki]

37. Over the last 7 months Hamas has fired over 800 rockets into Israel

Israel responded by firing over 5000 shells into Gaza to take out rocket positions. During one operation a small barrage hit a Palestinian beach. Most likely fired onto the beach with incorrect firing coordinates or a stupid mistake by a artillery man.

Regardless, the beach incident was the fault of Hamas for firing rockets into Israel even after their agreement to a 'ceasefire'.

Artillery never would have been firing if Hamas hadn't been launching.

So to answer my question, it was after the rockets were being fired.

[Robbien]

45. Israel does keep saying it is dropping bombs

to stop rockets. No outside confirmation of the rockets but plenty of talk of the bombs.

The first real confirmation of events is the little girl losing her family during a beach picnic.

[akushuki]

48. OUTSIDE CONFIRMATION

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4855056.stm

[Robbien]

65. An old lost and forgotten rocket went off

from the article

The Israeli army said the explosion might have been caused by a rocket that had lain dormant for some time.

and this justifies US funded warplanes dropping bombs on civilians how?

[akushuki]

66. Please dont selectively read

However, the army did confirm that three rockets had been fired from Gaza during the day.

[Robbien]

71. Please don't selectively edit, the Israeli army said that

but the said that without any details, just that rockets were fired. No discussion of where they landed or any damage. Sounded to me as if they were trying to get out from under the big fuss they made about the musty old rocket going off.

Not confirmation, just talk.

[akushuki]

73. Try this then...

One of the rockets, which are bigger than the makeshift Qassam missiles militants usually launch, fell near a kibbutz in southern Israel.

There was no damage or casualties reported at the Itfah kibbutz.

Earlier in the day, as Israel voted in a general election, two Arab Israeli shepherds were killed in a blast caused by an unexploded shell in a field.

The rockets fell and it even said where this one landed. The people who were 'sploded were 'sploded by a shell not a rusting rocket.

[Robbien]

81. The two Arab shepherds were killed by the old musty rocket

it said so in the beginning of the article. But of course it repeats the Arab shepherds being killed again later in the article to give the impression Arabs shepherds were killed by their "rockets being fired" claim. There is no damage reported in the article by the three rockets.

I read it as if someone pointed out that the rocket which killed the shepherds was an old forgotten rocket and the Army said "Oh. Yeah well they lobbed three rockets at us earlier. They did, really." to cover up for all the fuss they made over the old musty rocket.

[blonndee]

82. I thought the article was REALLY misleading

and confusing. It relied heavily upon "the Israeli army said" AND presented several separate events haphazardly so that it's not clear how, or whether, they relate to one another.

[akushuki]

84. Nah, reread the article with your glasses.

At the beginning of the article it clearly says that a Katyusha was fired and gives where it landed and then mentioned three other missiles.

Then it went on to describe an incident where an old rocket/shell/whatever blows up two people.

If the IDF lies as much as you suggest, then why even tell the truth about the missile being old and forgotten? Why not just blame it on Hamas?

[Robbien]

87. This debate is stupid because

the article is stupid.

That article confirms nothing but the fact that the reporter is a bad reporter.

[akushuki]

88. Just cause he reports on stuff you dont like to hear doesnt make

him a bad reporter.

[blonndee]

90. Hey, if it's true I'll accept it and I think the other poster would too

no one thinks Hezbollah and Hamas are innocent, by any means. But the fact is, it is a very poorly written and researched article. Even my college newspaper could do better than that.

[akushuki]

92. Lol, my college paper does awesome stories on different ways to smoke weed

Or at least I assume from the one paper I read while visiting Binghamton earlier this year. I start this fall.

But by no means would I consider this a bad article.

[blonndee]

93. Well, I would but that's probably the copy editor

in me. Heh. Last fall the paper did a whole feature on STDs among college students, got a whole bunch of donated condoms from Planned Parenthood, and attached a condom to every single paper--like 10,000 of them. THAT was a fun night at the newsdesk.

[Robbien]

94. He reports on a bunch of "he said/she said" type of stuff. No facts

except an old forgotten rocket going off. Then he is happy when some people wave around his silly puff piece claiming it is proof of something which justifies a country dropping bombs on civilians.

[akushuki]

96. And I propose again...

If Israel is lying about the Katyusha's and other rockets then why not lie about the unexploded ordinance and also claim that on a recent Hamas attack?

[Robbien]

97. Who said they didn't. We don't know because the article is so bad.

But I wasn't the one putting forth the silly article as proof of militant bad acts.

The crime is that the silly article just flames the fire for more bombs to be dropped on civilians.

[akushuki]

98. Is the article really so bad that it is impossible for reading

comprehension to take place?

[Robbien]

99. If one is reading for facts they wouldn't find any in it.

But if someone is waving it around because they want something (anything at all) to justify all the bombs dropping on civilians, they I suppose those people would believe the article is great. It is as good as the stuff Judith Miller spewed out.

[akushuki]

100. Interestingly

BBCNEWS is one of the most respected news names in the world. They have sources.

Its not a blog, they dont link to other news articles.

[Robbien]

101. Yeah, and who does Judith Miller work for?

but wave that article around all you want. Maybe you will have better luck next time and no one will actually read the article and just take your word that it contains facts.

Have a good time trying to justify the bombing of civilians.

Good day.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. HAMAS was lobbing bombs at Israel BEFORE that bomb hit the beach.

Why leave out that fact? I know why. It doesn't further your rhetoric sufficiently if the WHOLE story is known. Sderot was being bombed relentlessly by Hamas, Israel responded. Qassam rockets travel 2-6 miles and have been improved over the years to travel even further. Sderot sits 2 miles from Gaza. Gaza is only five miles wide from the beach to the eastern border. Qassams could easily have hit Sderot and DID. It's now a ghost town. Israel did not just fire a bomb toward the beach in order to kill that family. They were being bombed by Hamas.

[blonndee]

42. According to washingtonpost.com, that's not what happened.

TIMELINE:

July 17 - Israel batters targets across Lebanon killing at least 38 people, many of them civilians. Hezbollah rockets land near Nazareth in the deepest strikes yet on the Jewish state.

Several Western nations, including the United States, launch plans to evacuate their citizens from the battered country.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair and U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan call for deployment of peacekeepers to Lebanon.

In speech before parliament, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert vows to continue Lebanon offensive until conditions are met.

July 15 - Israel targets a Hamas office in northern Gaza as well as roads and bridges. Israel demands the return of the corporal, but Hamas wants to exchange him for prisoners held by Israel.

July 14 - Israel bombs Hezbollah's headquarters and radio station in Shiite neighborhood of Beirut and destroys more roads and bridges, effectively sealing Lebanon off from the outside world.

Hezbollah rockets land in Haifa and in many northern Israeli communities; a missile also hits Israeli naval vessel, killing one sailor. Hezbollah leader Hasan Nasrallah vows "open war."

July 13 - Israel broadens Gaza offensive with armor rolling into Khan Younis, effectively splitting off the lower third of the Gaza Strip. An Israeli air raid on a house kills nine members of a Gaza family.

Israel imposes a naval blockade on Lebanon, bombs Beirut's international airport, roads and bridges. Hezbollah rains rockets onto northern Israel, killing two people.

July 12 - Hezbollah, the Syrian- and Iranian-backed Shiite Muslim movement, launches Katyusha rockets and mortar shells toward military posts in the disputed Shebaa Farms area and the Israeli town of Shlomi.

Hezbollah seizes two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border attack at Shtula that Israel calls an act of war. Eight Israeli soldiers die in the raid.

Israel immediately strikes back by bombing roads, bridges, power stations and Hezbollah posts in southern Lebanon.

Israel demands that the soldiers be released and vows to continue attacks until Hezbollah disarms. Hezbollah wants to exchange the soldiers for prisoners held by Israel.

July 3 - Israeli forces move into northern Gaza after a Hamas rocket hits the Israeli city of Ashkelon.

June 28 - Israeli forces move into central Gaza in pursuit of the seized soldier.

June 25 - Palestinian gunmen launch raid into Israel near Kisufim, killing two soldiers and capturing 19-year-old Cpl. Gilad Shalit.

June 13 - Israel kills 11 Palestinians, including nine civilians, in a missile strike on a van in Gaza.

June 9 - Explosion kills seven members of a Gaza family. Witnesses blame Israeli shelling, but Israel denies allegation. Hamas calls off 16-month-old truce.

March 29 - Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas sworn in after the Islamic radical group wins January elections.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/custom/2006/07/12/CU2006071200913.html

[akushuki]

46. It leaves out the following...

“The current situation cannot continue. The Palestinian leadership is responsible for the life of the kidnapped soldier and we are willing to exact the price from anyone who is holding him captive,” Peretz said.

Meanwhile, to allay fears Israel planned to stay in Gaza, Israel’s ambassador to the US Danny Ayalon said that if Shalit is released Israel will withdraw immediately but another objective of the operation, termed “Summer Rain,” was to stop Qassam rocket attacks.

“For the last six, seven months, we've been receiving more than 800 rockets from Gaza terrorizing our southern communities, and they do need and deserve protection and security from our government," Ayalon said.

http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=2/a/viii/280620061

Bold added by me for emphasis.

[blonndee]

52. Okay, here's one that goes back to August 2005

Full of violent acts all around, but somewhat useful, I think. At least it was for me.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast/gaza_timeline_recent.html

July 13, 2006
Israeli air strikes hit the Palestinian foreign ministry building in Gaza. Israel said the raid was aimed at Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahhar and accused him of involvement in the capture of an Israeli soldier.

July 12, 2006
An Israeli plane drops a 225-kilogram bomb on a residential building in an attempt to kill Hamas bomb-maker Mohammad Deif. The bombing kills six people, but not the intended target.

July 11, 2006
Israeli warplanes kill seven people and wound 24 in an attack on the house of Hamas activist Dr. Nabil al-Salmiah in Gaza City where a meeting of Hamas commanders was taking place.

July 10, 2006
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, speaking to foreign reporters, repeats his refusal to negotiate for the release of soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit.

Khaled Mashaal, exiled leader of Hamas, says Shalit will be treated as a prisoner of war until Palestinian prisoners are freed.

An Israeli air strike kills two Palestinian militants in the Gaza town of Khan Younis.

July 9, 2006
Olmert tells his cabinet that Israel will continue its military offensive in the Gaza Strip until Palestinian militants free an abducted Israeli soldier and stop attacking the country with rockets.

Israel bombs a key bridge in northern Gaza and knocks out power to the town Beit Hanoun. The military says the bridge was destroyed to stop militants from moving rockets.

Witnesses claim Israeli tanks have returned to northern Gaza, a day after pulling out of the area. The Israeli military denies the report

July 8, 2006
Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh calls for a ceasefire with Israel, but does not offer to release Shalit.

United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan says Israel should stop its military operations in Gaza for humanitarian reasons, pointing to air strikes that affected Palestinian hospitals, as well as water and sanitation plants.

Israeli troops pull back from the northern Gaza towns of Beit Lahiya and Beit Hanoun.

Palestinian witnesses say an Israeli missile hit a house east of Gaza City, killing a six-year-old girl, her 20-year-old brother and their mother. The Israeli military begins an investigation of the incident.

July 7, 2006
Israeli Public Security Minister Avi Dichter says Israel will consider releasing Palestinian prisoners as a "reciprocal gesture" if Shalit is released.

Officials close to Olmert later say Dichter's statement does not reflect the views of the government and that Israel insists on the soldier's unconditional release.

Israeli forces carry out air strikes on Palestinian militant positions in northern Gaza for a second day.

July 6, 2006
In some of the heaviest fighting since Israeli forces re-entered Gaza, 21 Palestinians are killed, including nine killed in air strikes in the Beit Lahiya area. An Israeli soldier is shot in the head and killed in the same area.

Palestinian militants launch eight homemade rockets at southern Israel, including five in a one-hour period and one that lands off the coast of Ashkelon. No damage or injuries are reported.

Noam Shalit, father of captured Israeli solider Cpl. Gilad Shalit, asks Israel to consider meeting the demands of the Palestinian groups holding his son.

The United Nations Human Rights Council passes a resolution condemning Israel's military attacks against Palestinian ministries, power plants and bridges in the Gaza Strip.

The resolution passes by a 29-11 vote. Canada, Japan and EU members vote against the resolution. The council will also dispatch a fact-finding team to the region.

July 5, 2006
Israel's security cabinet approves expansion of the military operation in Gaza into residential areas in response to the Hamas rocket attack on Ashkelon.

In Geneva, John Dugard, a United Nations human rights envoy, tells a special session of the UN Human Rights Council that "Israel is in violation of the most fundamental norms of humanitarian law" because of its "disproportionate use of force against civilians" in Gaza.

July 4, 2006
The July 4, 2006 deadline set by Palestinian militants holding the Israeli soldier passed without concessions by Israel or confirmation that the 19-year-old corporal is still alive. The CBC's Adrienne Arsenault reports fighting near the main border crossing between Israel and Gaza during what appeared to be an Israeli incursion into Palestinian-controlled territory.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert continues to say the military offensive will continue until Shalit is released unconditionally. The Israeli government later says that Cpl. Shalit is still alive, but does not cite a source for the information.

Hamas claims responsibility for a rocket attack on an empty school in Ashkelon in southern Israel, about 10 kilometres from the Gaza Strip. No one is injured in the attack. Olmert calls the attack "a major escalation of the war of terror against us."

July 3, 2006
Israel rejects demands by three Palestinian militant groups that Israel start releasing 1,500 Palestinian prisoners by 6 a.m. on July 4, 2006, or the country would "bear all the consequences." Olmert rejects the ultimatum, saying there will be no negotiations.

The Israel air force kills one Palestinian and injures two others. The Israeli army says they were planting explosives along the border. The Islamic University in Gaza is hit in an air strike for the second time.

July 1, 2006
Israeli aircraft attack the office of Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh. There was no one in the Hamas member's office when two missiles set it on fire at 1:45 a.m. local time.

June 30, 2006
Israeli warplanes hit more than 30 targets, including the Palestinian Interior Ministry offices and an office of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. The Israeli army says all the targets were used to plan or carry out attacks on Israel.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak tells the newspaper Al-Ahram that the militants holding Shalit set terms for his release, but Israel did not agree. Israeli officials deny there was any such discussion.

June 29, 2006
The body of West Bank settler Eliahu Asheri is found near Ramallah. The Palestinian Resistance Committees later says it kidnapped and killed the 18-year-old.

Israel seizes eight Palestinian cabinet ministers - one-third of the Hamas-led cabinet - and nearly 20 other legislators in early morning raids. An Israeli army spokesperson says they weren't being used as bargaining chips to get back abducted Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit but were taken to await charges in connection with recent attacks against Israel.

June 28, 2006
Israel launches two missiles at a Hamas training camp in southern Gaza. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says the military incursion is not a reoccupation of Gaza, but the offensive will continue until a captured Israeli soldier is returned.

Four Israeli warplanes fly over the summer home of Syrain President Bashar Assad in Latakia, apparently to pressure Assad to work toward the captured soldier's release. The exiled leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal, lives in Syria.

At a mosque in Gaza City, militants with the Popular Resistance Committees display the identification card of missing West Bank settler Eliahu Asheri. They threaten to kill him if Isreal does not end its invasion of Gaza.

June 27, 2006
Israeli army air strikes destroy three bridges in northern Gaza and the district's main power station. Tanks and troops cross the border into Gaza and take up positions east of Rafah.

June 26, 2006
Israeli troops gather along the Gaza Strip border for an expected military strike following the capture of an Israeli soldier, and the deaths of two other Israeli soldiers.

June 25, 2006
Palestinian militants attack an Israeli army post, killing two soldiers and abducting a third. They crawled through a tunnel from the Gaza Strip. Israel later closed the tunnel and shut down the border to Gaza. Israeli leaders said they would wait two days for the militants to return the soldier before launching a military response. This was the first time militants have conducted a deadly raid since the army withdrew from Gaza in September 2005.

Eliahu Asheri, an 18-year-old military student and West Bank settler, goes missing.

June 24, 2006
Two rival Palestinian groups agree to stop firing rockets at Israel from the Gaza Strip. A spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas tells Reuters that the Fatah leader and Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas have agreed to stop firing rockets at Israel. This move raised hopes of a new truce, but militants with the armed wing of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad group deny a ceasefire.

June 13, 2006
Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz says an inquiry has concluded that Israel is not responsible for an explosion on a beach June 9, blaming it on an explosive buried in the sand. Human Rights Watch says its investigation found the explosion was caused by a 155-millimetre shell "in all likelihood" fire by an Israeli gun.

An Israeli air strike kills nine Palestinians, including two members of Islamic Jihad. The others killed were civilians, including two children, hospital officials say.

June 10, 2006
President Mahmoud Abbas calls a referendum for July 26 on creating a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Hamas threatens a boycott because they say a yes vote would be a de facto recognition of the state of Israel.

The armed wing of Hamas fires more than a dozen rockets on the Israeli city of Ashkelon, ending a 16-month-old self-declared truce.

June 9, 2006
An explosion on a beach in Gaza kills eight Palestinians, including a family with three children having a picnic. The Palestinian government accuses Israel of firing the shell that caused the explosion. The Israeli defence minister would later deny that the military caused the explosion, blaming it on an explosive buried in the sand.

June 8, 2006
Israeli helicopters fired four missiles at a training camp in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, killing Jamal Abu Samhadana, the Palestinian government's top security chief, and three other militants. Ten other people are wounded.

June 1, 2006
Thousands of Palestinian police officers demonstrate in the Gaza Strip over the government's failure to pay close to three months worth of wages.

May 26, 2006
Hamas withdraws a security force of 3,000 gunmen from Gaza in an effort to reduce tensions with the rival Fatah faction.

May 24, 2006
The Israeli military conducts a raid on Ramallah, killing at least three Palestinians and injuring 30 others before withdrawing. A short time later in a separate incident, a car bombing kills Gaza security chief and Abbas loyalist Nabil Hodhod.

May 19, 2006
A gun battle erupts near the Palestinian parliament building in the Gaza Strip between members of the new Hamas security force and police officers loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas.

Sept. 12, 2005
Israeli troops leave the Gaza Strip, ending their 38-year presence in the area. Palestinians celebrate the troop withdrawal. Some of the synagogues remaining in the Strip are set on fire.

Aug. 23, 2005
The last Israeli settlers leave their settlements in the Gaza Strip, ahead of a full Israeli withdrawal from the area.

[akushuki]

57. So Militants piss off Israel and Israel bombs the shit out of them and

those in the immediate vicinity?

Yep, seems about right to me.

[Robbien]

76. Militants piss off Israel and Israel bombs private citizens

Instead of going after who is attacking them, they go after the civilians who have the bad luck of living anywhere near the range of US funded Israel warplanes.

Edit: Exactly what we did to Iraq. Israel must be taking lessons.

[akushuki]

77. Thats bullshit and you know it.

If they intentionally target civilians why even fuck around? They should just carpet bomb the shit outa Beirut instead of using guided missiles to blow up specific targets. Cheaper that way.

[blonndee]

78. So did Israel or did it not purposefully bomb

"privately owned factories throughout the country" and "he production facilities of at least five companies in key industrial sectors - including the country's largest dairy farm, Liban Lait; a paper mill; a packaging firm and a pharmaceutical plant"? http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74078

If they use guided missles, then that would mean that they're not only deliberately targeting and destroying runways, bridges, roads, houses, and "terrorist hideouts," but also Lebanon's industry, right?

I agree with you on one thing: They're not fucking around. But basically what they are doing IS "bombing the shit" out of Lebanon.

[akushuki]

83. Thats only one article I cant really find it a mention on any other news

However, my guess would be that the warehouses did or were suspected of, housing rockets/other hezbollah gear.

Then again, Israel may just be sending a message to Lebanon to get Hezbollah to cut this shit out.

[blonndee]

89. Here is one from Reuters

More info on what and who is being bombed--including locations outside Shi'ite areas and away from "Hizbollah's southern strongholds," small airports, a lighthouse, ports of Beirut and Tripoli, gas stations, fuel tanks, and power stations, abandoned homes and offices, Lebanese army, coastal radar systems--as well as Israel's claims and Lebanese civilian claims about these can be found at the link.


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B389023.htm

Israel's Lebanon campaign goes beyond Hizbollah
18 Jul 2006 14:02:09 GMT
Source: Reuters

By Alistair Lyon, Middle East Correspondent

BEIRUT, July 18 (Reuters) - A dairy factory, a lighthouse, civilian buses and a medical truck are just a few of the more puzzling targets hit in Israel's week-old pounding of Lebanon.

Israeli generals say they need several more weeks to achieve their goal of crippling Shi'ite Muslim Hizbollah guerrillas. But Lebanese are wondering what is left to hit in raids that Prime Minister Fouad Siniora says have caused material damage of billions of dollars on top of tourism and investment losses.

Israel launched its offensive after Hizbollah guerrillas seized two of its soldiers and killed eight in a cross-border raid, but air raids have shattered much of Lebanon's civilian infrastructure, as well as striking at Hizbollah targets.

According to Lebanese police, at least 42 bridges have been destroyed and 38 roads cut in an aerial onslaught that has also targeted communications equipment and factories. Runways and fuel depots at Beirut airport have been hit repeatedly.

[akushuki]

91. Thanks for the second article...

Israel must deal in lead then.

I see no other reason to bomb that stuff other to punish Lebanon.

[Robbien]

85. We dropped hundreds of bombs on Iraq to take out one "target"

and the city and its people is destroyed in the process.

Any time a bomb is dropped within city limits, civilians are the targets whether intentional or not.

Guided missles, yeah right. Civilians are dying.

[in_cog_ni_to]

59. I believe Israel over a bunch of terrorists, like Hamas.

<snip>"We have expressed our deep regret over the death of seven innocent civilians, we truly regret this. Defense Minister Amir Peretz has instructed that an inquiry be held into the exact circumstances of the event. Of course, the exact details and the conclusions of the inquiry will be made public."

At the same time, Olmert said, Israeli civilians are facing Qassam rocket attacks "designed to maim and kill."

Such attacking "strikes at the fabric of life in communities in southern Israel and threatens peoples' lives."

After the killings on the Gaza beach, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, said it resumed rocket strikes against Israel after a hiatus of more than a year.

The Israel Defense Forces says 48 Qassam rockets had been fired into Israel over the weekend, wounding one Israeli seriously.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/11/olmert.gaza/index.html

[blonndee]

64. Now the Washington Post is "terrorists?" What? nt

[blonndee]

62. delete-wrong place

[Robbien]

47. Hamas doesn't have bombs. It has rockets

Israelis are the ones with US funded bombs and warcraft.

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. Ah, yes. Rockets don't kill. Got it. n/t

[liberalhistorian]

11. When those bombs are killing Palestinians

in Gaza and the Lebanese, then it doesn't count. Haven't you got the memo by now? :mad: :mad: :puke:

[BillZBubb]

29. Baloney.

You assume people aren't smart enough to know what is what. Hardly anyone is "blinded" by Hezbollah. Show me ONE person here who is "blinded".

[YOY]

2. I'm pretty sure most DUers are quite aware that

there is no 'good guy' in this situation.

I found most DUers to be pretty repulsed by both parties.

Yep, Hezbollah are scum and a nasty nest of hornets. There are ways to get rid of hornets that doesn't involve wacking the shit out of the hive.

[MarkDevin]

5. Whacking a hornet's nest just pisses off the hornets.

I don't recommend it.

[YOY]

7. That's exactly the point I was trying to make Mark

n/t

[LittleClarkie]

6. One of the polls I saw had "both sides are wrong"

winning pretty handily.

[Scurrilous]

74. Yep...

...great post. :thumbsup:

[Endangered Specie]

4. who said anyone was supporting Hezbollah...

I havent seen one post that does say such a thing...

I for one would like to see them gone, but I seriously do not like Isreal's 'method' (which is, amongst other things ineffective to that goal).

[liberalhistorian]

13. Don't you know?

Expressing any sympathy for the Lebanese or Palestinians equates to supporting Hamas and Hezbollah.

[Endangered Specie]

107. no I thought it just made us Nazis

:shrug:

Guess we're moving up in the world?
:sarcasm:

[K8-EEE]

14. I Haven't Either...Find A Pro-Hezbollah Post!!!

Is there even ONE? This is strawman time...it's like when Bush says, "Some people think Iraqis don't deserve to be free!" WHO EVER SAID THAT??

[akushuki]

18. Did you guys try clicking the link in the original poster's post?

[melnjones]

58. So...

Is it not ok to recognize that even terrorist groups do some things that are positive? That poster clearly said she doesn't support violence and fear-mongering. I have a feeling the subject line of her post was for the sake of reaction and getting people to read the rest of what she had to say, rather than show her undying support of hezbollah and hamas. She was absolutely right in her comment on black and white thinking.

[cali]

67. Sure she was

but recognizing H'zbollah for what it is- a fundamentalist organization much like the Taleban is not engaging in Manichaen thinking.

[blonndee]

68. Yes and it also is a way to discuss WHY people in the region

feel as though they need these groups. But it seems like too many (some on each side, but it does seem disproportionate) are not interested in looking at the why of things, because it seems too much like blame. And blame should only be directed at the other side.

[cali]

27. duh.

I included one in my OP, and there are quite a few others out there. Quite a few.

[Erika]

28. No, there is not one

Don't exist.

[adriennui]

35. to even equate israel with hezbollah

is the type of blind hatred expressed by the israel haters on stormfront. hezbollah is a violent assortment of freaks who have no qualms about killing innocents.
israels' method is self defense to save its' very existence.

[Endangered Specie]

106. One: I dont equate Israel with Hezbollah...

I equate some (now most) of the IDF's tactics and 'methods' as being as distasteful as Hezbollah's actions. They seem to have remarkably similiar results.

Two: A nation does is not engaged in self defense when it kills ten to twenty times as many civilians as the group they are defending against.

Three: Don't think for one minute that Israel doesnt have its fair share of nuts and violent freaks: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/

Four: Enough of the anti-semetic/stormfront/Godwin card no one here hates Jews (otherwise they would be TSed)

[liberalhistorian]

9. Who the hell are you to tell people who to

support or not support? You've been smacking down people who dare to criticize Israel, you've been misrepresenting and minimizing the damage, death and destruction currently being suffered by Lebanon and Gaza, assuming that they can all just pick up the phone and directly control Hamas and Hezbollah, and you've been supporting Israel no matter what all through this. And now you're telling us what to think and who to support? I don't think so.

Sharon was a war criminal, responsible for massacres in Lebanese refugee camps, whether Israelis wish to recognize that or not. And Likud is full of Sharon wannabes. Do we tell/demand that Israelis not vote for them? For every Israeli who complains about the Palestinians who voted for Hamas, there's another Israeli who voted for Sharon and other Likud members, who are just as much terrorists. Give me a fucking break.

[jonnyblitz]

16. one or two people mention they like the humanitarian efforts of

these groups(which frankly I am not an expert on) and the OP makes it sound like there are a bazillion DUers wearing Hezbollah t-shirts.
the other side is starting to overcoming the side that is critical with the shrillness and hysteria. I am everything from a left wing wacko to "just like pat buchanan" to these folks. they are losing their minds trying to justify this murderous crap.

[blonndee]

20. It's degenerated into questioning whether we might be terrorists now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1668167&mesg_id=1669219

[Cvortex_10]

19. So I guess its only that someone lob rockets at Israel...

just to punish them right?

[Erika]

21. Great post

I am tired of Israeli worship, especially when their military bill is picked up by U.S. taxpayers.

[cali]

22. That's a ridiculous and unfounded accusation

I have roundly criticized Israel repeatedly. Do a search on the I/P threads. I've said time after time that I consider Israel's incursion into Gaza collective punishment, a frank breach of the Geneva conventions. That has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make here.

Calm down and review my posts. I challenge you to fine one where I've supported Israel's actions in the last few weeks.

In other words, put up or shut up.

[liberalhistorian]

31. And I challenge YOU to find a post

where someone here directly supports Hezbollah. A couple of posters talking about their humanitarian efforts does NOT equate to support of them or Hamas.

[BillZBubb]

32. Wow, I wish I would have said that!

[liberalhistorian]

41. Thanks, I guess I've just had

it up to my earballs with this double standard.

[welshTerrier2]

10. this sounds about right to me ...

http://www.tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner/news_item.2006-07-17.9426591429

[AnOhioan]

23. I have always admired Tikkun n/t

[TomInTib]

17. I just think it is their fight and I don't give a shit. nt

[Erika]

25. But our taxes are paying for their military warring

For that reason, I do give a shit.

[TomInTib]

38. Funny, I was going to mention our funding...

but left it alone so as not to be flamed.

I wish we could cut off all funding of the Israeli War Machine.

[L0oniX]

80. to hell with them all

I am tired of caring about any of them but I have been for the underdog over the aggressor. I am tired of seeing pictures of women and children all bloody and dead on all sides. They have had enough time to work things out and have failed over and over. We keep funding them like money will be the answer to it all. They can't get along and never will. When you invade and take land away from people and families they will fight back. How long has this been going on? ...over 50 years? We should just stay out of it and keep our tax payers money to help our own country. Imagine what $300,000,000,000 (the cost of the Iraq war) could do for health care for our people.:nuke:

[TomInTib]

86. Hey, LOonix...

A few things...

1. Welcome to DU

2. Tread softly on the subject of the Israeli thing (but don't hold back) - it's a touchy thing here and you want to hang around.

3. Fuck 'em. Cut them off tomorrow.

[BillZBubb]

26. Nice distortion--straw man at work!

You totally mischaracterize what the writer of that quotation meant. I haven't read anyone who supports Hezbollah's militant arm. Perhaps you can find ONE?

I don't support Hezbollah, but I do recognize there is more to them than just the militant arm. Their social services are all that many poor Lebanese have. That helps to explain their popularity among their people. And those services are needed. To deny that is to deny reality.

I don't currently support Israel, but I do recognize Israel's right to exist--within the pre-1967 borders. To deny that Israel will remain is to deny reality.

I don't like fundamentatist Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist or whatever organizations. I think blindly supporting Israel attacking Lebanon makes a mockery of everything liberal, so we obviously have a disconnect.

[cali]

30. Strawman? LOL

The writer of said post says out front that they support H'zbollah.

[BillZBubb]

39. You are being dishonest. Here's what you quoted:

"I support their social work, building hospitals, schools, feeding the hungry, etc. I support every step they take toward peace, however small, I support their demands when I consider them just, I support people's right to elect them, "

That's not support for Hezbollah's militant arm. It specifically list what is supported. Social programs and steps towards peace. You distorted that to be "support" for everything Hezbollah. That's bullshit and you know it.

[cali]

44. Sorry. First of all the subject matter title was

"I support H'zbollah", and furthermore there's fucking absolutely no separating the social services piece and the political piece from the militant arm. It's all under one philosophical umbrella.

[in_cog_ni_to]

95. That's TRUE. He was posting to ME on a thread. I asked him if he supported

Hezbollah.....He said and I quote, "HELL YES I support Hezbollah!" The thread was deleted.

[Erika]

33. I'm also sick of the maiming and killing in the name of God

It's a bunch of bs. Either side.

[Alcibiades]

34. I love Isreal

It's Likud I cannot stand.

I wish the current government success. They have gone in with a deadline to get out, and, unlike some folks, this is credible.

As for the post you cite, can you be sure that person's even an actual Democrat? They sound French to me.

[Erika]

36. Love Israel? Send your paycheck to them

and leave mine alone. Thank you.

[Alcibiades]

60. We already do

Like it or not, under Democratic administrations and Republican ones. Yes, I think it's silly to send so much of our aid to Israel. Many other nations need it far more.

I mean that I love Israel in the way I love everybody, not in a crazy "I want to send my paycheck to Israel" kind of way. No way! I have to pay the cable bill.

For that matter, I meant the "I hate Likud" comment in the same way I might say "I hate Republicans." Nothing personal, you understand, but their policies stink.

I absolutely promise that I haven't done anything to your paycheck. (OK, I confess, I am FICA!)

[Pathwalker]

43. I clicked on that link. VERY STRANGE. No thread.

Every DU link I've ever seen shows a THREAD, but this shows ONE POST THAT DOESN'T LINK TO ANY THREAD.

WHY IS THAT???????????????????????????????????

Something isn't right. If this a TRUE POST on a THREAD, why isn't there a link to the actual thread?

[Behind the Aegis]

49. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1666787&mesg_id=1667611

[cali]

50. Of course it's a real thread. I just clicked it on and there it was n/t

[Zhade]

51. And this thread is a call-out, which is against DU rules.

NT!

[Behind the Aegis]

53. Damed if he does/damned if he doesn't.

[cali]

63. I read thread after thread in which

people demanded proof via a link to another thread that demonstrated that there was support for H'zbollah here. I've seen several comments that demonstrated that, and I pre-emptively dealt with said challenge. If you believe that what I did was against DU rules, alert. If the mods lock the thread, I have no problem with that. I respect their judgement.

[Pathwalker]

70. For all I know, it could be a glitch - in either DU or my

computer. DU has been screwy for me all day, but I have never had this happen before. All I got was THAT post - as though I had just simply clicked on IT - but no thread. I STILL find it very, very strange.
:shrug:

Frankly, I find this whole conflict sad beyond belief - I personally think nothing can really be gained by arguing over whose "fault" it is, as no one seems to ever change their mind, despite all the passioned debate. You're right about the rhetoric - both sides have gone WAY over the top, which serves no positive purpose that I can see.

Peace.

[Pathwalker]

54. When I clicked on it, all I got was that one post.

No thread. I found it weird - it's never happened to me before, so I asked about it. A kind DUer provided the link to the thread.

Thank you to that kind DUer.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. .

:eyes:

[melnjones]

69. How kind of you to leave out half of that post...

How about I put the rest of it on here?

"I don't support violence and oppression and fear mongering, even though I can understand the reasons for it, on all sides, without getting hysterical about the way of the world. I support peace and dialogue, between all sides. I support Geneva Accord and Arab Peace Initiative and giving people chance to vote over them in referendum.

I don't support black and white thinking and over-simplification."

We're all gung-ho over here in the US about democracy, but then we also want to control who can and cannot have a part in the democratic process in other sovereign states? Sorry folks, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It is perfectly legit in my mind to fight against any type of terrorist activity from anyone, even those elected democratically, but we can't seem to wrap our little minds around the fact that you cannot cannot cannot fight terrorism with terrorism. It's like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it.

[cali]

72. Supporting H'zbollah is supporting the most oppresive kind

of totalitarianism and fundamentalism. Period.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Samir Kuntar

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1669305&mesg_id=1669305

[Spazito]

79. If your intent was a genuine plea, why did you only post part of

what the poster had re Hezbollah? Why didn't you post all of it for those responding to decide, in the full context of the post, whether it was as you described?

Edited to correct a typo.

[burythehatchet]

102. Because being honest will always undermine their position

and fantasies.

[me b zola]

103. I could be wrong...

But I think that there are far fewer hard-liners, on either side of the issue, then what the responses within threads seem to suggest.

When I came to DU I thought that Israel was far more innocent then I do now. Now I see a whole lot of gray. I think that is how the majority of posters feel, of course with many shades of gray. But it seems as though the discussions degenerate into people assuming that they other person holds one side completely innocent and the other totally culpable, which usually isn't true of the person who is being accused of that.

There may be a handful of posters who believe that Israel is completely innocent. There may be a handful who believe that Israel is completely culpable. I truly doubt, though, that any here believe that H'zbollah or Hamas are wonderful organizations.

I could be wrong, but I think that most of us see the horror that is happening in the ME in shades of gray as to who is the bad guy and we just want the killing to stop.

[nashville_brook]

104. amen

[Hekate]

105. Well said, Cali. When bombs are falling all around, clarity is scarce

When bombs are falling all around, clarity is hard to come by, very hard to achieve.

Israel has a right to exist. So do the Palestinians and the Lebanese. There are Jews in both Israel and the US who have been working toward a two-state solution. They may be swimming upstream, but they're still trying.

The images on the news are the same on all sides: people and buildings being blown to bits, children shrieking, families screaming into their cell phones: "Where are you, where are you? Pick up, pick up!" Was that an Israeli woman? A Lebanese? An American father calling his daughter overseas? They're all the same, all the same. :cry: :cry: :cry:

DUers -- look at our own people, look at our own government. Who is rejoicing -- rejoicing! -- at this turn of events. Who does it serve?

The Rapturists and Neocons -- our fellow Americans! -- are practically orgasmic at this new violence. The criminals in our own government are colluding because the violence serves their designs -- not "Israeli" violence. Just violence.

Hekate

[lostnfound]

108. Callout

Starting a thread to call negative attention to another member's post is a 'callout' and a violation of the rules.