Russ, Shut the F*ck Up!

[SaveElmer]

"I stand firmly with the people of Israel and their government as they defend themselves against these outrageous attacks."

When a constituent at the Wisconsin session criticized both the Palestinians and the Israeli government for taking a "dysfunctional" approach to the conflict and said the U.S. needed to "lean on Israel" to change its behavior, Feingold offered a different view.

"There's blame to go around for everybody," he said, but he argued that Israel had been acting constructively in recent years and blamed Hezbollah, Iran and Syria for provoking the current crisis.


http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=7/15/2006&id=8593

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

I agree, but not just for this. (nt)

[applegrove]

1. Well - Hezbollah knowing provoked Israel. They did. Perhaps they

were not expecting a war. But they did. They started using an al Qaeda tactic against Israel..kidnapping..with threat of murder...not like your kidnapping of Terri Wait. And there you go!
So they did provoke. That much is true.

I'm a little more concerned that the USA, Canada, Europe didn't sit Iran and Saudi Arabia down at a table when they pulled all but emergency aid from Hamas in Palestine.. and said... step up and stop funding the terrorists...build something for fuck's sake.

I'm sure neocons are dancing on tables all over the place.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. Perhaps if you only watch CNN, you'd get that take.

It is, unfortunately, a woefully inadequate assessment of the situation. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself.

[JuniperLea]

17. Yes, it takes two to tango...

A hard stance and action geared toward getting those who were kidnapped back would have been one thing. This is heinous.

[applegrove]

25. It was stupid of Hezbollah: to borrow an al Qaeda tactic (tactic

is imminent threat of death in kidnappings). You wanna go borrow a tactic al Qaeda has used to terrorize and shove that at Israel..be my guest.

Neocons like it when formerly non-al Qaeda types get jiggy with al Qaeda moves. They love it. They are freaks. But so are the terrorists who start emulating al Qaeda. It was so predictable. Chances are the leadership of Hezbollah sees no future in Israel going it alone with a wall. That is career ending for terrorists in Palestine.. so they went with a new tactic.

If they want to play into neocons hands.. fine. But leave the ****ing civilians out of it.

If the backers of Hezbollah were not aware that is was the neocon plan all along ...to make each mid east ruler, and each executive of terrorist organization go black or white (al Qaeda or not) they have been hip deep in sand..asses out for the last three years.

But fine for them. They are likely in a safe house somewhere. It is only the vulnerable and innocent who pay. So what is it to Hezbollah to up the anti? They must feel they have nothing to loose.. and so they must think all these victims are nothing.

[frylock]

32. soldiers get siezed or captured. civilians get kidnapped..

just like the civilians the IDF kidnaps.

[Rude Horner]

2. Ahhhh

:popcorn:

[SaveElmer]

8. I actually agree with him...

Pointing out the stupidity of posts like this aimed at people more disliked than Russ who say the same thing.

[Junkdrawer]

22. So...this is a pro-Hillary, flamebait-by-design thread...

I see....

[SaveElmer]

30. As opposed to the...

anti-Hillary, flamebait-by-design thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1662661&mesg_id=1662661

[MADem]

41. It's a "not what is said" but "who said it" moment of truth.

And it should make some assholes feel uncomfortable. If they are honest with themselves, that is.

[Tom Joad]

3. Russ stands firmly against the human rights of Palestinians, the people

of Lebanon. He is also acting against the people of Israel who want their government to act in a wiser fashion. (think of the contempt we felt for European leaders who supported bush's adventure in Iraq, and i can imagine many Israelis feel the same way about Russ.)

[Norquist Nemesis]

4. Ok. Then bomb the fuck out of Hezbollah!

From what I hear they're amassed at the southern border. :shrug:

[Warren Stupidity]

47. Hezbollah is not quite that stupid.

The IDF tried that day one and got nowhere. With an edict from the politicos to not put the ground troops back into Lebanon, they decided to simply terror bomb Lebanon on the off chance that this would convince the dysfunctional Lebanese government to convince Hezbollah to lay down their arms and unilaterally cough up their prisoners. This hasn't worked either, not that it had a chance, and Hezbollah has demonstrated a military capability and resilience that was most likely quite unanticipated while the Lebanese Army has demonstrated a willingness to continue to defend their country against the IDF air campaign. Now Israel, unwilling to take the obvious steps to resolve this crisis, is faced with re-invading Lebanon instead, mostly to save face. Their prior occupation was a disaster both politically and militarily and Hezbollah has had something like ten years to prepare for this invasion. Hezbollah emerged from the last invasion stronger and better organized.

There is a simple resolution that both sides could accept: complete and unconditional ceasefire and return of all prisoners and detainees.

[cboy4]

6. Hmmmmmm.

:popcorn:

[Critters2]

19. Yep, an Israel/Arab thread

Should be fun.

Can I have some popcorn?

Thanks.

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[cboy4]

34. Have some:

:beer: also! :pals:

[Critters2]

42. Yep, I'll have a cold one!

Thanks!:toast:

[cali]

7. Yeah, let's savage

one of the best Senators we have. That's productive.

You know it's one thing to be critical of him for this, but it's another to start a thread with a vicious title.

[SaveElmer]

9. As compared to this one perhaps!

"Hillary, Shut the Fuck Up"

I assume you posted a criticism of that one as well!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1662661&mesg_id=1662661

[cali]

20. I missed it, but I'll rectify it.

I don't think that serves us well either.

[mtnsnake]

11. You just totally proved SaveElmer's point in all this. nt

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. Why not? He savages our party's Senators all the time.

[Sugarcoated]

53. How does he "savage" other Democrats?

Critisizing them to stop cowering and stand up to Bush is not "savaging" them, it's the truth and they need that kick.

[Sugarcoated]

59. Dupe

[the other one]

10. Pulling up a chair

:popcorn:

[Catherine Vincent]

13. I love DU!

:-)

[LSK]

35. you mean how yesterdays flavor of the week is todays goat?

:popcorn:

[Pirate Smile]

43. I think this thread was more about pointing out double standards.

Good point, Save Elmer.

:)

[rodeodance]

14. Russ was aked by his constituants where he stood--He has not

avoided the issue.

[nolabels]

23. When no words would be better than some words.........

a lot of things will go without saying

[MADem]

15. Why? It's his opinion.

All politics is local, and there isn't much that is more local than heritage and religion.

He's fine when he opposes the war, but dare he have another opinion on this matter, and he's suddenly a putz????

He has a right to his opinion. And Hiz b'Allah DID start it up. They went over the border, they snatched those guys and killed the others, and they started lobbing rockets.

I personally think Israel is using a Howitzer to swat a fly, but I don't have access to the intel they have, either. They may be conducting a heavy duty, high flying clearing operation to make it easier for the Lebanese Army to occupy the southern zone. Or they may have some information on where bunkers and ammo depots are located.

[Critters2]

26. I pretty much agree

I keep thinking about the rule of an eye for an eye, which is found in the Hebrew Bible. It was intended to prevent situations like this. Someone injures your eye, you injure theirs. Then it stops.
By its own traditional law, Israel had the right to kidnap some soldiers. That's it. No bombs, no missiles. A couple of kidnappings.

Anything more is overkill. And a violation of Torah.

[MADem]

38. Ok, they take a few Hizb'allah clowns, and what? Ignore the Katushyas

whizzing through Haifa? Allow them to crank up the long range heavy machinery and aim towards Tel Aviv???

Come on. That's absurd. Three things happened here. The Party of God pranced over the Israeli border. They killed a couple of soldiers and kidnapped a few. And then they started firing rockets at northern towns and Israeli Navy vessels.

And they are doing it from southern Lebanon, which they control (not the Lebanese Army) AND, to make matters more problematic, the twenty percent infiltration of the Lebanese Army by Hizb'Allah sympathizers isn't making the situation any easier. The resupply of rockets and missiles is plainly coming down by air and road via Syria, so they had to take out the northern roads AND the airports.

What should they do? Sing Kumbaya? Ignore the behavior??? Tell their citizens to ignore the rockets hitting their homes and places of business???

For once, Israel didn't start this shit up. They're just reacting. And they're using the POWELL DOCTRINE. Had we done the same in Iraq, if we had to go there at all, we wouldn't be looking at a roll of 2.5+K dead and countless wounded.

[Critters2]

40. You say "reacting" I say "over-reacting" nt

[MADem]

45. OK, ANSWER.....ANSWER.

WHAT would you have them do???? Your judgment means nothing. What's your proposed solution?

Forget about the UN. That would take a month, if it happened at all. Kofi said he wouldn't touch it until the shooting stopped. And then, everyone would bitch about who goes. There would be promises up the yingyang, and no boots on the ground.

Come on, you are in charge. The rockets are hitting Haifa and towns south of it. They've dragged out one twenty five foot beauty that made it half way to Tel Aviv, and supposedly they got some that are mo-betta. Your fellow citizens are getting killed. The Lebanese government is infested with Hizb'Allah, they cannot help. Hizb'Allah OWNS the swathe of land contiguous with your northern border, they move about with impunity. The arsenal is being replenished via Syria on a daily basis.

What are you gonna do????? Ask them sweetly to stop? Get real.

[Recursion]

60. I would really, really...

...like to see somebody answer this.

Blaming Israel on principle is all well and good, but what do people suggest Israel actually do?

[Critters2]

64. Who shot the first rocket?

Really. Refresh my memory. I'm not asking who kidnapped whose soldier. Who fired the first missile, dropped the first bomb?

all those bombs hitting Haifa? They're in response to bombs hitting Hizbollah strongholds in Lebanese neighborhoods.

Again....proportionality. In all honesty, proportionality is mandated by Torah...an eye for an eye...precisely to prevent this kind of mess. Please don't tell me Israel has a right to the land because it says so in the Bible, and then insist that Torahic law doesn't apply to Israel.

According to Torah, when Hizbollah kidnaps 10 Israeli soldiers, Israel has the right to kidnap 10 Hizbollah soldiers. No more, no less. When Hizbollah kills 2 Israeli soldiers, Israel gets to kill 2 Hizbollah guys. That's it, that's all.

Israel can start acting like the Jewish state it claims to be, or it can behave like a terrorist state. It can't do both.

Proportionality.

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. Clearing the way for the lebanese army --

by bombing the lebanese army barracks, shelling their bases, crippling their ability to move into the area.

Makes sense to me.

[Minnesota Libra]

16. What was wrong with Feingold's response, he admitted there...............

.....""There's blame to go around for everybody," he said.... so it's not like he was totally defending Israel.

[mtnsnake]

27. hahaha, nice attempt at sugarcoating it! nt

[SaveElmer]

31. It was an extremely strong pro-Israel statement...

One that I largely agree with. Just wanted to see what the reaction would be to Russ taking the same position as Hillary...criticism of her stand can be seen here...with the same title

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1662661&mesg_id=1662661

[npincus]

18. that's YOUR opinion.

I'm with Feingold.

[SaveElmer]

24. Actually it isn't...

I agree with Feingold as well. I was mocking the halleluiah chorus when a similar post was put up about Hillary taking the same position,

[npincus]

28. my apologies.

:)

[cigsandcoffee]

21. I think he should speak, and think he's quite right. n/t

[SaveElmer]

29. As do I ...

I was pointing out the stupidity of posts with the same wording used against others in our party, and the almost universal approval they received from folks around here. Wanted to see what the reaction would be to Feingold taking the same position.

[mmonk]

33. Not always constructively in recent years.

But many people know that.

[Kellanved]

36. And that's incorrect why?

Sounds like a well-balanced statement to me.

Speaking of well-balanced statements: Nice avatar :thumbsup:

[SaveElmer]

37. I agree with him...

This is a response to this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1662661&mesg_id=1662661

108 responses and 12 recommends...


Wanted to see the level of consonant dissonance around here

[MADem]

39. You have to consider the source on some of that nonsense

It's always the same playas, shorts in a twist.

They're the same ones who don't read legislation, and believe that she voted for amending the Constitution to prohibit flag-burning, no matter how many people offer proof to the contrary. And no amount of large, lumpy fact shoved up their asses will compel them to shit out the truth--it gets in the way of their hating, I guess.

[mtnsnake]

46. Thank you. You are so right on the money.

Take the point you just made about the flag burning thing, for example. I don't know how many times she's been accused of trying to amend the constitution with a flag burning amendment...and I don't know how many times I've posted in response that she NEVER supported any flag burning amendment. She supported federal legislation that would outlaw flag desecration as an ALTERNATIVE to a flag-burning amendment. However, no matter how many times it's explained, someone will post five minutes later making the same false claims that she supports a flag burning amendment.

[jonnyblitz]

49. yeah we are just a bunch of dumbasses...

pro-war DEMS deserve all the CRAP they get. :puke:

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Yeah we were just pissed off about her flag burning legislation

and the fact that it was deliberate and dishonest pandering and indicitive of the way she maneuvers and twists in true Clintonian style while standing for nothing and having no real convictions.

[Warren Stupidity]

48. So basically your post was a flamebait troll.

However I do not demand 100% from the politicians I support. Russ is wrong, his analysis is stupidly slanted, as are almost all mainstream politicians, to the Israel Can Do No Wrong position. Russ should step back and place this whole episode within the context of the Neocon PNAC plan to 'wipe the slate clean' in the Middle East, and stop with the knee jerk bullshit.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. Edit

Did not get the deliberate irony in the OP. I agree with Sen. Feingold, as well.

[dogday]

52. Well he says it like he feels it

and he can't be right on every issue, but what he is trying to do for THIS country is important...

[Goblinmonger]

54. Well, he is Jewish.

So he is actually speaking what he thinks in relation to an attack on people who share his religion. Unlike Hillary who is not Jewish but clearly trying to make her constituancy happy.

[Sugarcoated]

61. Well that's bol-o-nie

One of the things I like about him is he isn't a rubber stamp for all things Israel. AIPAC hates him, that should tell you something.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. Or, speak out for peace instead of mouthing platitudes.

[Jim Sagle]

56. Russ RRRRRAWWWWWWXXXXXX!!!!!!!!

[adriennui]

57. who would you rather listen to than sen. feingold?

he will not STFU because you disagree with him on this issue. he's been over to the ME a number of times, i assume he is an intelligent man so what you're saying is that you believe you're more informed. did you ever think that perhaps he is correc.....and your blind prejudice doesn't allow you to see any other side?

[SaveElmer]

58. I agree with Feingold...

This post is in reaction to a post on another Senator with the same position who is routinely savaged on these boards...wanted to see how much consonant dissonance there was around here

"Hillary, Shut the Fuck Up"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1662661&mesg_id=1662661

[adriennui]

63. you can't compare russ and hillary

...hillary is republican light.

[Crunchy Frog]

62. I don't agree with Russ, but I do agree with your point

that he and Hillary should not be judged by two different sets of standards. I appreciate your pointing it out.

[Fenris]

65. Locking.

This is a continuation of a previous flamewar.

Fenris

GD Moderator