At sprawling American base in Iraq, echoes of a former British empire

[bigtree]

Saturday July 15, 2006
By ANTONIO CASTANEDA
Associated Press Writer

HABANIYAH, Iraq (AP) Lying at the edge of this vast military base, the quiet cemetery of 300 tombstones is a crumbling vestige of the British Empire. Once a Royal Air Force hub, the base now serves U.S. forces.

To historians, the base at Habaniyah, 50 miles west of Baghdad, represents one of many parallels between past and present.

Older Iraqis remember the British base as a symbol of foreign domination that stoked the country's nationalist movement. Today, Habaniyah's American occupants face similar hostility as they struggle to stabilize Iraq.

``Habaniyah was the focus of the most intense Iraqi resentment toward the Brits,'' said Professor Rashid Khalidi, a professor of Arab studies at Columbia University and a critic of the U.S.-led invasion. ``If you thought (Iraqis) weren't going to resist when they spent a good part of the 20th century trying to get the British out of there you're out of your mind.''

full story: http://cbs4boston.com/worldwire/Iraq-EchoesofEmpire_a_i_-----/resources_news_html

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Well, if we can't get them to govern themselves the way we

want them to.....

[libhill]

8. "We'll teach you to elect good men"....

at the point of a gun barrel, as usual.

[DavidDvorkin]

2. But we know better than Britain

We'll do this empire thing the right way. Ours will last forever.

[MADem]

3. I never understood the Brit enthusiasm for overseas cemeteries

It's like begging for desecration, IMO.

A WW2 massive cemetery like Normandy or Nettuno, that's one thing, but they do this shit everywhere they go...

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. It's sort of a claim stake. Like a dog pissing on the trees.

[MADem]

6. Yeah, but it INVITES disrespect....it's one thing to leave your

architectural mark, but leaving your dead behind...eh, I guess it is a cultural thing. I would sooner see them cremated.

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. Empire builders have to get past concerns about disrespect.

Giving or receiving.

[libhill]

9. But were the truth known...

we probably have cemeteries overseas too... we in America tend to forget our own "colonial" past - Nicaragua, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Panama, the Philippines, Samoa, the "Yangtze Patrol" in China, and on and on. The main difference between the British way and the American way, is that the Brits tended to stay for extended periods, Americans in most cases only stayed long enough to stabilize the area for U.S. business interests, or to install a puppet government willing to comply with Uncle Sam's wishes. But the casualties from our imperialist episodes have to be buried somewhere. An example: the U.S. 15th Infantry Regiment, "The Forgotten 15th", was deployed in China from shortly after the Boxer Rebellion until the 1930s. In action quite often, against "bandits" or warlords. Action means battle deaths. And Imperialism by any other name is still Imperialism.

[MADem]

12. We do have a lot of World War cemeteries...but I haven't noticed

a huge number of "just occupyin'" cemeteries in my jaunts around the globe.

[libhill]

15. Nevertheless

I'm sure there are some out there, conveniently forgotten just like the episodes which gave rise to them.

[MADem]

17. Who knows, this is some organization, though....

http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/Stats.pdf

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Because bringing a body back through the tropics gets whiffy?

You can spend a lot on refrigerated ships (rare in those days); pickle them in alcohol (worked for Nelson, but not a cheap option either), or bury them in the country.

[MADem]

11. Back in the day, yeah, but we're talking about a base that was active

in the mid-fifties.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. From what I remember of a piece on British TV, the graves are mainly

from the immediate post-World War One era. It still would have been shipping the bodies back, rather than flying them.

[MADem]

18. No, all wars, and then some--see the link I put in another post NT

[libhill]

20. This is true

I recently read a book on the British Empire, I forget the title, but there was an appendix on British cemeteries in old Empire areas. Some of these graves go back to the early 19th Century and earlier.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. I meant the graves in Iraq

But if you mean the link you gave to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, much the same argument applies - that's graves from the 2 world wars. Even in WW2, shipping 350,000 refrigerated bodies back thousands of miles would take capacity that was needed just to keep people alive and fight the war.

[MADem]

23. No, I understand that aspect, but you find these little cemeteries all

over the place, and not all of the dead ARE war dead. Some are just colonial boys. Or girls. Or families: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/9460/echo.htm

A few of us at Bangalore, in India have come across a disused cemetery

dating back to 1805 to 1870. This cemetery was only for the Europeans

and Protestants.

We are trying to restore this cemetery, but unfortunately, we do not

have any records relating to this cemetery or ground plan. Many of the

graves have been vandalised. The stones are scattered. We would like

to put the stones back on the original graves, but cannot do so for

want of information. The last known location for records was burnt

down - The records at the Holy Trinity Church, which incidently

was the Garrison Church in the mid 1800's.

There are over 700 graves, some belong to important Officers & Soldiers,

their families and also the Church Pastors and their families.

A few names I am putting from some of the graves that may catch your

eye and help us to help these poor souls get their original stones back,

as some of the stones are missing and some dislodged, etc...

The Christian cemeteries in Surabaya of Makam Peneleh and Kembang Kuning contain many British graves from the 1840s onwards. Makam Peneleh, the oldest existing Christian cemetery here is earmarked for demolition and so time is running out for those whose relatives were buried here. There is also a Jewish cemetery which contains several British graves. In addition there is the a cemetery maintained by the Dutch government which contains amongst others, British graves of those who died assisting the Dutch in their attempt to regain control of the East Indies after the Japanese surrender. http://user.itl.net/~glen/asianintro.html

Until two weeks ago, anyone looking for the grave of Lt Eric Sutherland of the Seaforth Highlanders need only have visited Klerksdorp cemetery. Today, his resting place would be impossible to locate as it has been rendered anonymous for ever.

All 217 of the cemetery's British graves from the Boer War have been stripped of their cast iron crosses. These heavy objects, each marked "For King and Empire" with the name of the fallen soldier, disappeared overnight, carried away by thieves who probably made about £400 by melting them down for scrap. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/11/wboer11.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/11/ixworld.html

Among the extraordinary legacies of British India are hundreds of thousands of graves that lie strewn across the subcontinent, most of them in forgotten, weed-covered cemeteries that have little or no future in modern India. I first became aware of the abandoned cemetery problem several years ago when I visited the former hill station of Ramandroog in Karnataka. The visit motivated me to return with some volunteers and document the graves. Gradually, as time and opportunity permit, I am also collecting information about other European cemeteries and graves in and near the region in which I work. ... https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/blewis/www/cemeteries.htm

I simply haven't come across as many American graveyards that are unassociated with periods of war, but then, we haven't been in the colonial business as long....

[misternormal]

5. I guess they don't want an Iraqi form of democracy either..n/t

[Disturbed]

14. US Troops and Mercs will be in Iraq until

there is no longer a USA.

[izzie]

13. They did it better than us.

Some how they got to own half the world with about 1000 men fighting and the rest they used from the places they took over. Few times they went in with their own guys to many got killed. Has it ever seem odd to you that such a small country could take over so much of the world? Course they also ruled the sea lanes.

[libhill]

19. British regular regiments

usually formed the back bone of colonial garrisons, supplemented by "native troops", and lots of them. Sepoys in India, Askaris in Africa, etc. The U.S. learned and copied from that, in some of our own misguided overseas adventures. For example, U.S. Marines were initially employed in areas like Haiti or Nicaragua, replaced over time by native "Gendarmeries" or "Constabularies", trained and officered by American Marine officers and NCOs. Same thing in the Philippines. When the Moro tibes and other "native" opponents began to get obstinate and inflicted a lot of American casualties, which didn't play well at home, U.S. troops were gradually withdrawn to key garrisons, and the day to day business of "butcher and bolt" punitive operations were taken over by American officered Philippine Constabulary, Moro Constabulary, Philippine Scouts, etc. The British have been good teachers. Unfortunately.

[izzie]

24. Thank you, that was interesting. I will be looking for more on that

==

[libhill]

25. If you google up

"Jungle Patrol", there is an on line book about the Philippine "Constabulary", which is pretty interesting. It was written in the 1930s, so I'll warn ya in advance, that it's dated and takes the American colonialist point of view. But it still gives you a good idea of the kind of routine military operations that went on in the Philippines, even though the Constabulary was technically a police force.... :)

[izzie]

26. I will do that. Sociology was my minor in college and I

always seem to be interested in such stuff. Service and it whole sub-culture also has been an interest. I once read a book about how the German army was trained and that was a study in its self. One could see the bond that they developed vs. the way the US army ran the army in the Vietnam war. And no pulling a Bush thing on me and say I wanted the Germans to win just because I read how the army at that time trained its man vs. how the US did our army in Vietnam. God knows I am not running down the US on this a making Germany great it is just an interesting subject to me.

[libhill]

27. I know what you mean...

likewise, I don't advocate colonialism or exploitation of the Third World, just have an interest in obscure military campaigns - go figure...

[izzie]

28. You would think more people would be interested right now.

Bush and his neo-cons have become so interested in power as doing all things, in place of talk, you would think every one would really look into what the military ia getting to be. I frank;ly do not think I have heard so many people write or call into shows and say we should just bomb 'them' off the face of the earth. One would think we were still living in caves and thinking like those people. The carry over from these endless wars just stays with us for years and years. It is all a shame. I wonder if any one has ever really faced the fact that we just can not have a nuke war? Anything we know would be just gone.

[BrotherBuzz]

21. Totally off topic but Roald Dahl flew the Hawker Hart at RAF Habbaniya

I'm still waiting for The Magistrate to build the model of this airplane.