The preacher's wife who shot him to death says it was over MONEY!

[napi21]

It was just announced on CNN, but they don't have the story on their web site yet.

SOOOO, I wonder how all his loyal parissioners are going to take THAT news?

Here's the only link I found that gives the background on the story and that they were expecting some info today.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/30/winkler/index.html

[electron_blue]

1. That link implies he was an abusive s.o.b. I don't see anything about $

[Poll_Blind]

2. At least it's not the expected "The Debil Made Me Do It", defense. n/t

PB

[Ian David]

3. "Christians don't shoot Christians." Gawd, I hate the Talibornagain!

"What would cause a godly woman to do such a thing?" asked neighbor Sharon Everitt, echoing the question that has hung over the rural town since late March. "Christians don't shoot Christians."

Yeah, Sharon Everitt... Xians are suppose to shoot 'em some a dem Muzz-lems!

Wait, it gets better...

Across the street from where the Winklers lived, Sharon Everitt has no problem with Mary Winkler going free.

"She could come in here, she could sleep in my bed, live in my house," Everitt said. "She is not a danger to anybody." At the time of the slaying, Everitt recalled, the Winklers were portrayed as the perfect couple. The day he died, she said, Matthew Winkler "got elevated to sainthood."

<snip>

Sharon Everitt said Mary Winkler was friendly on the surface, but likely isolated and under extraordinary pressure. In the past year she lost her mother to cancer, had a baby and followed her husband to a town that doesn't exactly embrace newcomers.

"When you're new here, you're new forever," Everitt said. "The people in this town are so nice, but they are a family. If they are not in some way related to one another, they have known each other all their lives.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/30/winkler/index.html

[Javaman]

10. "Christians don't shoot Christians." But...

"When you're new here, you're new forever," So therefore, they will always keep an eye on you. Yeahhhh, real x-tian.

[dogday]

4. Money Changes Everything......

Oh yeah it does....

[bleedingheart]

5. my mom always told me that the lack of money and sex can make

a good marriage bad...

[Bunny]

6. Aren't money problems the leading cause of divorce in America?

I'm pretty sure that's true.

How are ya, bleedingheart?

[bleedingheart]

18. okay...too many things to do.

summer is going by in a flash and I am just overwhelmed...

[Bunny]

20. Heh, me too.

So busy I've had to postpone my vacation - now you KNOW there is something seriously wrong when that happens!

[bleedingheart]

22. that's pretty bad..

i am looking forward to this long weekend...

[harrison]

7. The denomination of the Winklers has, no doubt, been

discussed here. But the Church of Christ is a particularly oppressive and almost sect like organization. It is oppressive to women who are not allowed to become ministers. Nor are they allowed to teach adults in church. They are allowed to teach children. Furthermore, when the men are teaching, they are not allowed to even question what the preacher or the male teacher is saying.

Divorce is only allowed in cases of adultery. So you spouse can beat hell out of you, but can't get divorced and stay within the fellowship.

When you sin, you are supposed to make a public confession of the sin in front of the whole church.

I know many members of this denomination and there are plenty of miserable, married people.

Finally, they don't consider themselves a denomination. They see themselves as the only true church which means that if you aren't a member, you are going to the bad place.

I have known minister's wives in more open denominations such as Methodist, Presbyterian. It is like living in a fishbowl. It is awfully hard to have your own career and you are supposed to take a back seat in church.

I can only imagine that Mary Winkler was living a pretty oppressive life. Doesn't justify what she did, of course. However, she grew up in the Church of Christ, was indoctrinated with the idea that she couldn't get divorced, and I bet was a severely depressed person.

[no_hypocrisy]

8. New criminal defense: Battered Wallet Syndrome n/t

[CoffeeCat]

9. What strikes me...

...is the preacher's apparent split personality.

On one hand, he's a charismatic Church leader, loved by all. On the other hand, he's aggressive at home and threatens to shoot their neighbor's dog.

It sounds like the man was most likely a monster at home, and masqueraded as a charismatic, wonderful, God-boy in public.

We don't have enough information yet, but I suspect that he was an abuser. Many abusers hide behind religion. In fact, they are drawn to leadership positions (church, corporate, community) to cover their true, ugly selves. If they are respected and powerful in the community, this leaves their victims even more trapped--because no one believes that a CEO or a preacher or a mayor could be an abuser.

This is sad...all the way around--because these children have lost both parents. Most likely, their home life was very difficult, and now they're hanging by a string.

Tragic.

[sable302]

13. I don't know (semi rant)

maybe I'm just too willing to cut the guy a bit of slack, but the fish-bowl thing mentioned above goes both ways. Believe me. The church environment and the expectations involved affect the preacher just as much as his spouse. She's supposed to be perfect so that he can be perfect, or he catches it from the church. God, it's an oppresive environment and it traps both of them.

I don't doubt the money thing. They moved to this little town where the church couldn't have more than a couple hundred working class members, and no way to raise an adequate salary for him and his family. So they pay him shit even though he's likey the most highly educated and qualified person in his community (it' like this in small towns all over the country)

Most of us would say 'to hell with it' and find a better paying job in the city, but in ministry it's like God wants you to do your job regardless of how shitty the pay is and you're supposed to just like it and buck up because it's for a greater good or you're called to it or whatever corny excuse they make up. So...they pat you on the back after church on Sunday but pick your family's pocket the other six days of the week and you're supposed to say 'oh thank you thank you now master church for letting me be your god lackey.'

I got out of that sort of abuse for the sake of myself and my wife, but even now part of me misses being the 'God guy' even though we got treated like shit. It's a real tough situation.

[progressivebydesign]

55. God.. I was married to one of those!!!!

EVERYONE LOVED him!!! He is a prominent member of the community.. But he was verbally abusive and had an entirely different personality. I'm not shocked that she snapped... the availablity of the gun was her downfall.. really. Sad that she didn't reach out and get some help, but verbal abuse and control issues are almost impossible to break free from. SLowly you begin to believe everything this person is saying about you.. getting hit would almost be easier you think because you'd have actual bruises. Sad that she snapped. From what she said he had been criticizing how she walked, talked, and ate... he was just one of the victims in this.

I remember a woman that cleaned my house who had a verbally abusive husband. She stuck by him because she was uber religious born-again, and her church was all about staying married. She said, though, one day the minister said "if you want to know a man's character, look at his wife's face". She said that lots of men in the church and women began crying.. because it was probably the same for so many of them. Churchgoing folks on sunday, wife abusers on Monday.

[TexasProgresive]

11. Whateva

What makes you think anyone cares about a case that ought to be on the 6PM local news and not taking up time on the national news? This is just like run-away-bride, lost blonde in Aruba and other spurious crap.

[napi21]

12. Maybe, but I think it's important to point out when these "great and

wonderful Christians" really arent all that great and wonderful!

Many of them spend a lot of time criticizing the "liberals" and how godless they are, and how we should all be more like them. I'm tired of them hiding behind their "church" and I want everyone to know what really goes on with them too!

[Sadie5]

15. I bet he was an abuser

Everything fits nicely. The so called religious man across the street from me regularly gives his wife a black eye. In one of his stressed out times he ran from the house threatening me, while his bible thumping pals tried to calm him. I had asked them not to block my driveway with their cars while attending a bible study at the neighbors house. Once when his wife came running over crying with yet another shiner I asked why she didn't take the kids and leave him. The church, I was told did not allow divorce. They were counseling him at that very time. She also told me that he gave her no spending money, and that she did not know what his salary was nor their bills. When he was yelling that the cars could park where they wanted as this is county streets, I stood facing him with my hands on my hips waiting for him to hit me in front of dozens of his church going witnesses. I often wonder too if they would have lied for him if I had to send his ass off to jail for assault.

[Lars39]

17. They would have claimed that you struck him first.

I wouldn't be around that bunch unless I had a crowd with me that could act as witnesses.

[Cha]

80. I agree! "It's the

hypocricracy, stupid!"

Definetly needs exposing.

[KingFlorez]

16. This is news worth covering

Not all news can be about national issues

[eppur_se_muova]

14. So...someone was killed over money? This is definitely news.

I never thought I'd see something like that happen in this country.

We try to keep our killing overseas.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. I Hope She Rots In Friggin Hell, That Selfish, Cold Hearted Murderer.

Poor kids, having to lose both parents. I hope she rots in hell.

[RebelOne]

21. That's a bit harsh, since you don't know the real story.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. I Read Her Own Goddamn Words. And I Say I Hope She Rots In Friggin Hell.

She's a cold, selfish, worthless murderer that I hope rots in hell. That's the way I feel about all cold, selfish worthless murderers.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/wife-shot-minister-to-death-after-fight/20060630141109990004

[Lars39]

25. Sounds like she was being emotionally battered and snapped.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. What A Crock Of Shit. There Is No Excuse For What She Did.

I hope she rots in hell.

Married people fight over petty things. That doesn't mean you take a shotgun out of the closet and blow away your spouse while leaving your children as orphans. Fucking pathetic.

To condone this piece of shit is to condone every other piece of shit that murders their spouse. It was an inexcusably cold, selfish and murderous act and she deserves to rot in friggin hell for it.

[Lars39]

29. You obviously know zilch about battered women.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

31. Do You Like Making Things Up? Show Me Where It Says She Was Battered.

She murdered in cold blood due to selfish reasons like any other fucking piece of shit that murders their spouse in such a way. She was not abused, battered or anything else as far as can be deduced from everything available so far. May she rot in hell and may god bless her children and help them grow up to be somewhat normal after their mother's heinous act.

[Lars39]

33. Emotional batterment is abuse.

Maybe you need to go cool off a while.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. No Thanks, I'm Fine. And Petty Arguing Is Not Abuse, Or Every Damn Spouse

could claim abuse. On second thought, almost every spouse I know could claim abuse in one way or another. Such is marriage.

But that does not give a spouse the right to take a shotgun out of the closet and blow away their significant other. To do so makes them a cold, selfish, murderous piece of shit that should rot in hell in my opinion.

I'm not going to apply a double standard because she's a woman. It's pathetic to me how quick some are to defend her because of that simple fact. But I judge equally regardless of gender. Man or woman they should rot in hell for such an act.

Defend the murderer if you want, but I see her for what she is.

[Lars39]

41. What's pathetic is how you automatically dismiss the possibility,

nay, the existence of emotional battery and the effects it can have on an individual.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

43. I'd Love To See You Defend So Strongly Next Time A Guy Murders His Wife.

It would be quite interesting to see if you would.

Since there is absolutely no reason to believe she was severely abused I will make my judgements based on her own damn statements. And from what I read, of her own goddamn words, she's a cold, selfish murder that should rot in hell.

Don't pull out the cop-out battery excuse just cause the murderer was a woman. Doing so cheapens those who truly are battered and desperate for a way out. There are definitely spouses who are abused to such an extent that while I wouldn't condone their use of murder, would definitely sympathize with them.

This is not one of those cases. She murdered in cold blood like any other spouse had murdered in cold blood. Defend her all you want. But I can't stand people so damn selfish to take the life of another and destroy young children's lives. I find it pathetic and inexcusable. And as such is my opinion on her behavior, I obviously hope she rots in hell for it.

I'm done here. I'm not going to waste my time going around in circles about why killing someone in cold blood is a heinous act.

Bye now! :hi:

[Lars39]

44. If he was battered, yes I would try to understand.

It's called compassion.

[sable302]

45. glad that's over

what a trip!

[juajen]

75. Show me where it says she was a selfish piece of shit

A selfish piece of shit would have gotten a lot further without taking her children with her; a selfish piece of shit might have even done something to her precious children. I believe there is more here than meets the eye.

FWIW, no loved woman with children to raise grabs a shotgun and shoots the father of her children without reason. Women rarely resort to violence; and, by most counts, she was a good wife and mother. Of course, most women here will intuitively know that she had suffered from some kind of abuse. Statistics bear this out. I am not saying that women can't be murderers; but that you usually don't find them in small towns married to preachers. Get a grip!

[progressivebydesign]

57. Verbal abuse is more insidious than physical. You've never been there.

SO you don't know jack shit about it. You try being in a relationship where you're told constantly that you're doing everything wrong (as this guy did to her), where you're told that everyone hates you, you're ugly, you're unattractive, you're stupid. You try that for a few years.. okay? See how you'd feel about yourself, see how much rage would build inside of you. See how much doubt would build day after day.. until you believed that all of it was true and that it's all your fault.

Her downfall was having a gun in the house. Sounds like a blind rage when she finally realized she couldn't take it anymore.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

62. Well That's Exaggerating A Bit, Ain't It?

All she said is that LATELY he's been harpin on her. Big fucking deal! My wife harps on me all the goddamn time. Does that mean I should kill her? That's what you're condoning.

She didn't say he's abused her for years. She said lately they've been bickering. Lately he's been harping on her. You all need to see this for what it is. She killed someone in cold blood, period.

[sable302]

24. yikes!

We're all cold and selfish to a certain degree, but I don't think that anybody's worthless. I wouldn't even say that about our beloved president, I mean, not TOTALLY worthless, anyway.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. She's Worthless Enough. And No, We're Not All Cold Ass Selfish Murderers.

To compare what that piece of shit did to the everyday person is pathetic.

[sable302]

27. OMG

now I'm "pathetic?"

What did I do to piss you off so bad? Or is it just you?

Let me remind you of your own profile

You wrote - "It's all about integrity, respect, honesty, decency, open mindedness, fairness, and genuine desire to wish good upon all. That is why I'm a liberal."

Not living up to it too well today, huh?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. Because You Minimized Her Actions By Saying "We're All Cold And Selfish"

To defend her actions by in essence saying "yeah, she was cold and selfish, but ya know, we all are from time to time" is pathetic to me. Sorry if my response sounds angry, it was just the truth of how I feel. I would never respond to somebody who said "I don't believe that guy raped the hell out of that college girl like that!" with "well, we all get horny from time to time". Don't you think the latter would be pathetic if I did respond like that? Well to me it was the same difference, with all due respect.

On Edit: I see you edited in order to mock my profile. Well notice it says nothing in there about condoning cold blooded murders. Guess my quote's fine after all.

[sable302]

36. no no

What you said was that you hope she rots in hell, and that she was worthless.

If a college guy raped someone, I would hope he rotted in JAIL, but I would not think of him as a 'worthless piece of shit' worthy of eternal damnation. And don't think I'm minimizing anything now. Rape is AWFUL, and deserves major prison time and treatment. And I never said anything like 'we all get angry from time to time so it's fine that she blew her husband away' She's going to jail and that's that, but you won't be happy until she rots for eternity in a lake of fire or something like it.

Good grief you're a loser.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Well Excuse Fucking Me For Detesting Someone That Just Ruined Her

childrens lives by taking away both of their parents while completely taking the life away of another human being.

Yeah, shame on me for being angry about. Give me a fucking break. :rofl:

[sable302]

39. I'm glad you're getting such a chuckle

out of her eternal damnation. Maybe if we blew her away right in front of you so you could get a real belly laugh.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. That's Just Stupid.

I never said a thing about violence or condoning her death. And to twist a cliche like "I hope she rots in hell" into an actual literal is absurd to me.

And to be harrassed because I felt strongly about a cold selfish murder who took somebody's life and destroyed her children's lives is even more absurd to me.

I have every fucking right to look a cold, selfish murder in their eyes and say I hope they rot in hell.

So get over it.

[sable302]

42. hey, buddy

don't let me get in the way of you asserting your rights now.

But this was a fairly peaceful discussion until you dropped by.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. No, It Was Peaceful Until I Got Shit For Resenting A Murderer.

I had a right to express my outrage over her act. I read the article earlier and was pissed as shit that in the end it was over just petty marital fighting that happened EARLIER in the evening. It pisses me off when people murder. All I did was say I hope she rots in hell. Is that so goddamn provocative? I didn't put anybody else down or think in a million years I'd get fucking abused for detesting a fucking murderer.

So whatever. Feel however the hell you want. Go plead for mercy for her if you want. I hope she rots.

I'm done here.

[sable302]

52. never thought 'I'd get abused'?

Notice how this poster has stated over and over that emotional abuse is not real abuse, but now's it's possible to be 'abused' over a web board?

What a joke. Now I'm

:rofl:

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sable302]

61. post 37

you compared it to 'petty arguing'

But since he's put us all on ignore now, I guess this is purely academic.

[sable302]

63. And now post 62

He was just harpin' on her, you say.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. Because Her Statements Make It Sound Like That's All It Was.

She didn't claim years of abuse, she only said lately. So you're talking about a short period of time they hit a snag in their marriage and were probably just engaging in petty bickering more often than usual. That's the vibe I get from it. It is you all that are turning such a simple statement and court defense into some overly exaggerated severe abuse claim that should condone the murder of another human being.

Exagerrate it as much as you want. This is no more to me than someone who hasn't been getting along with her husband lately and out of an act of angry impulse blew him away with a fucking shotgun. An inexcusable act that I hope she rots for. That's what I see as happening here. You see it as some poor poor woman who was abused for years and tried getting out of her marriage but just couldn't because oh god the hubby just wouldn't let her go and was such an evil evil man who controlled everything and she tried to call the cops for help but they would ignore her and on a night of severe emotional abuse after years of putting up with it with no help in sight she finally broke down and oh god shot him with a shotgun poor her innocent victim with no way out.

Sorry, but I don't see ANYTHING in this case that leans towards the latter, and far more from her statements that lead towards the former.

So defend away. I'll remain grounded in logic.

[sable302]

66. Actually post 13 is what I think

and I was defending the husband in it.

I think the church is what's doing the controlling. The abuse is the symptom.

I don't condone murder either. I also wrote to you that she should rot in JAIL. Far from defending or condoning. I was just surprised by your extreme response is all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. So If I Had Said Rot In Jail Instead Of Rot In Hell That Would've Made The

world of difference?

If that is the case, then this has been an instance of extremely petty semantics.

[sable302]

71. it's hard to say

but you've jumped all over anybody who's tried at all to understand why she did what she did. You say we all condone murder in the case of spousal abuse.

And, the language you use is very fierce. She's worthless (which is the only work I really keyed in on) you say. I wrote one thing about it and we were off to the races. Remember, though, we're all 'pathetic' as you pointed out time and time again.

But you're the one who hijacked ths thread and killed off all other discussion, so thanks alot.

[Mandate My Ass]

59. Irony duly noted

;-)

[Pastiche423]

79. Is that what it's called?

Irony wasn't the 1st word that popped into my head after reading all of those comments.

[Lars39]

53. sweety, you got shit for judging her when all the information isn't in yet

Jumping on DUers with hob-nailed boots doesn't help much either.

[Puglover]

46. Jesus Christ give it a fucking rest.

We all got your point after you typed it the 10 time. You hope she "rots in hell."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. Don't Be A Hypocrite.

I'm not the only one going around in circles am I.

All I did was post an opinion of anger towards someone who just murdered another human being in cold blood while taking both parents away from young children.

To be so harshly spoken to because I REFUSE to condone or make excuses for someone who does such an act is beyond perplexing to me.

Why the hell this subthread started is beyond me. Who woulda thunk being angry at a murderer would get someone such shit here. :eyes:

[Lars39]

54. Because you are denying even a remote possibility that she is an

abuse victim.

[Puglover]

65. I could'nt care less how angry you are at this woman.

Deal with it however you see fit. It's the repetitive spamming that annoys me. If that makes me a hypocrite oh well....

[supernova]

32. We don't know the full story

of the problems in this marriage. We just don't know.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. I Know Enough From Her Own Words To Make My Judgement.

And why when a man brutally murders his wife in such a way there is not such fucking defense shows the pathetic double standard applied when it is a man vs a woman. I do not partake in foolish double standards and will judge her the same I'd judge any man who pulled the same selfish crap. Man or woman, if you murder your spouse for petty reasons and lack of impulse control then I hope they rot in hell.

[supernova]

35. Right.

You're showing far more to me than you think.

[progressivebydesign]

49. She was verbally abused and she snapped...

find the whole story about her. The preacher had been constantly crticizing her about how she walked, talked, what she ate.. etc. She snapped. I probably could have shot my ex husband after suffering years of constant verbal attacks. You just snap after a while.. Constant criticizing and control issues over someone is more damaging than physical abuse because you don't fight back.. and it's more insidious because the bruises are inside. You should find out the whole story... because it's probably more than it looks right now. Not excusing what she did, but you try and live with someone that, apparently, was constantly putting her down and making her feel worthless. Rage builds up...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. I'm Amazed By The Level Of Condonation For Murder Here.

I'm hiding this thread now. I'm ashamed at the level of excuses made for her.

My wife bitches at me all the time for what I eat. I'll be damned if that gives me the right to take a shotgun and shoot her in the back.

I find it disgraceful that just because she's a woman so many are so quick to rush in to defend her because of a small statement that he had been pestering her about what she ate, etc.

We have all been annoyed by our spouses. That is no where NEAR an excuse to fucking kill your partner by shooting them in the back with a shotgun.

This is the most illogical subthread I've ever seen. I'm ignoring the rest of it. I'm confident in my own logic and reasoning that she's a cold hearted selfish murderer that deserves no goddamn sympathy. The sexist knee jerk hypocrisy I'm seeing is just plain sad. (and I'll be damned if I let someone try and claim this has nothing to do with gender. Just show me where these DU'ers have ever rushed to the defense of a man in this exact damn situation. I hate double standards. Gender makes no difference in murder. That's all I have to say. God bless and goodnight.)

[supernova]

74. And I wonder why you're

so exercised about this particular story?

Sure, it's horrible. A man is dead. Kids have lost their father, and probably their mother too now.

But I wonder why you're so worked up about this particular story.

Care to share what set you off?

[SensibleAmerican]

69. Why don't we just execute her?

:eyes:

Don't take this to mean that justice should not be served, but I've never understood how anger helps any victim.

[Mandate My Ass]

72. Of course not, because you're a sensible American

and the media will stoke this tragedy for all it's worth. Keep the rabble bickering amongst themselves over tragic, but ultimately unimportant tabloid issues, and TPTB can continue the real crimes against the American people.

After the OJ Simpson trial I gave up on this issue. After all that hoopla, not one media outlet (that I know of) ever addressed the underlying issue of domestic abuse and its effects on society, and the children, that some people so piously claim concern for while condemning the abused.

[sable302]

73. I think we should string her up behind the church bus

and drag her worthless corpse through the streets.

:crazy:

[progressivebydesign]

47. Not exactly.. he'd been badgering her before that.. a control freak..

she said he'd been critizing what she ate, how she walked, how she talked, etc. for a while.. and the money argument (wherein he was berating her over handling the finances) just made her snap. She's a classic victim of verbal abuse.

[Lars39]

51. Yes.

And living in such a small community as a preacher's wife would have only exacerbated the situation.
I've been to Selmer and have also been a member of the Church of Christ.
It is a *very* controlling environment, especially for a woman.

[napi21]

60. I feel bad for her and the kids! I hope I'm wrong, but my guess is that

his Chiurch Congregation is going to side with their preacher and against her.

I can't excuse what she did...murder is wrong no matter what the circumstances, but in this case, it sounds like the American Talliban in full force! And I bet the members of this Church are all Shrub supporters too!!!!

[SensibleAmerican]

67. They're going to forgive her ...

And I sincerely believe they will. One thing I do like about real Christianity is the tenet of forgiveness.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

70. Guns don't kill. capitalism kills.

I get it.

[cynatnite]

76. Isn't money the root of all evil or something like that?

:shrug:

It'll be interesting to see how she'll try to beat it.

[Mandate My Ass]

77. I think the headline is misleading

The argument wasn't about money per se, but her handling of the money, and her walking and talking and eating and breathing habits, and all the other faults he found in her that he couldn't resist pointing out day after day after day.

There is no "beating" this. Her and her children's lives are permanently altered because of her act of apparent violent desperation. There is no happy ending here for anybody, least of all the perp.

[cynatnite]

78. I guess I don't understand what you're saying...

He wants her to conform to his every whim from what you've said. How does that make her desperate enough to kill him?

It's still too early to determine how true this is or if this kind of defense will hold up under prosecution.

Either way, the only ones I see right now that are suffering are the children. At this point in their young lives, they are without parents.