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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:24 PM
Original message
Superficial One-Dimensional Polls on Iraq War
The one-dimensional opinion polls that Americans are constantly bombarded with rarely provide information on WHY people believe what they believe. Consequently, those polls are more often a reflection of the corporate news media propaganda that we are exposed to than anything else – such as what we would believe if we received accurate information from our news media.

As an example, a series of Gallup polls taken from March to June of 2006 indicated that a substantial minority of Americans see a strong connection between George Bush’s “War on Terror” and his Iraq War. Specifically:
 39% of respondents think that “Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11 terrorist attacks” (March 10-12);
 44% “consider the war in Iraq to be part of the war on terrorism which began on September 11, 2001” (March 10-12); and
 40% believe that “the war on terrorism” is “better off (29% believe it is worse off) as a result of the war with Iraq” (June 9-11).

Given the above responses it is perhaps not surprising that Gallup also found that 37% believe that “it was worth going to war in Iraq”. That figure must be influenced by two opposing factors in addition to those noted above:
 48% believe that the Iraqi people are “better off” (29% say “worse off”) as a result of the war (June 9-11); and
 26% believe that the people of the United States are “better off” (42% say worse off) as a result of the war (June 9-11).

Thus in summary, the 37% figure that denotes the percentage of Americans who believe that “it was worth going to war in Iraq” must be heavily inflated by those who see the war as a part of the war on terrorism, and also inflated somewhat by those altruistic Americans who believe that the Iraqi people are better of because of the war, while the percentage favoring the war must be mitigated somewhat by the fact that only 26% believe that Americans are better off because of the war.

But what if the poll respondents were provided with some clarifying information, and the responses were stratified to take into account mistaken beliefs. In that case, we would probably see something like this:

Are you aware that no creditable evidence suggests that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11 terrorist attacks?

Yes (39%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 8%; No – 92%

No (54%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 58%; No – 42%

No opinion (7%)
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 30%; No – 21%


Are you aware that there is no creditable evidence that prior to the Iraq War in 2003, Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction or had plans for the development of such weapons?

Yes (44%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 13%; No – 87%

No (53%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 59%; No – 41%


Are you aware that in a recent poll of national security experts, 87% said that the Iraq War was undermining our war on terror?

Yes (10%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 1%; No – 99%

No (90%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 41%; No – 56%


Are you aware that approximately 40,000 Iraqis have been killed so far in the Iraq War?

Yes (40%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 20%; No – 75%

No (60%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 48%; No – 50%


Are you aware that 87 % of Iraqis would like us to agree to a timeline for leaving their country? (See page 45)

Yes (10%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 15%; No – 85%

No (90%):
Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes – 39%; No – 57%


Such a poll would show, in no uncertain terms, that approval of the war effort is driven almost totally by mistaken understandings regarding such things as the role of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq in the 9-11 attacks on our country and the effect of the war on the Iraqi people. That information could then be to used enlighten people far better than the one-dimensional polls that are currently used.

Some will argue that this proposal involves “leading questions” and therefore is invalid. I have two arguments to that criticism. First of all, I could argue that merely asking what effect the Iraq war has had on our “War on terror” is a “leading” question, since that question itself implies that there is a connection between the two, when in fact no evidence exists to that effect. Similarly, one of Gallup’s questions is prefaced by: “As you may know, the terrorist leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was killed on Wednesday by U.S. air strikes.”, which I think is no less leading than the ideas that I am suggesting. And secondly, even if one concedes that the suggested questions are “leading”, they would still provide valuable information with regard to how the provision of accurate information would influence the responses to poll questions regarding approval of the Iraq War.

The bottom line is that if polls are going to provide useful information they should do much more than merely reflect the garbage information that people receive from news media sources that parrot the Republican Party talking points. Rather, they should delve into the reasons for people’s beliefs by analyzing cross tabulations that look at the differences in responses between well informed and poorly informed respondents. In that way, these polls could be used as clarifying and educational resources.

On the other hand, as it is now, current polling practices remind me of a Vice Presidential debate I watched between Al Gore and Dan Quayle prior to the 1992 elections. Quayle was criticizing Gore’s book, “Earth in the Balance”, and Gore was correcting Quayle by saying that his book did not say what Quayle claimed it said. Gore even quoted the page number, and the argument went on and on. I had the book right in front of me, which clearly proved that Quayle was either misinformed or lying. But how do you imagine that the stupid talking heads managed this problem after the debate? Rather than get the book out and use it to clarify the argument, they simply debated which candidate seemed more convincing in his claim (Quayle, of course.)
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IndependentVoice Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. gj the number crunching must have taken awile
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Not so long - I'm an epidemiologist, so I'm used to this kind of stuff
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You are? Then how about an opinion on the Bird flu, since you must know
what you're talking about, unlike pretty much anyone else.

It would be good to hear an opinion from a pro, rather than a talking head.

Redstone
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's not exactly my specialty (I work for FDA), but I'll see what I can do
First, here's a very good article from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), which is the foremost federal agency that deals with infectious diseases:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm

The good news about this bird flu is that it spreads very poorly among humans. Largely for that reason, only 205 cases in humans have been proven over more than a two year period, from December 03 to April 06 (There undoubtedly have been a number of cases that have not been reported, but still it is evident that it does not spread well among humans). Compare that to major pandemics of influenza, which generally spread very quickly in human populations, such as the 1918 pandemic, which KILLED a million people world wide.

The bad news about this bird flu is that is highly pathogenic, with a case mortality rate of over 50% (at least among those cases that we know about).

The somewhat scary thing about it is that some scientists believe that it may mutate, thereby becoming capable of spreading quickly among humans. That is only a possibility, probably an outside possibility, but I can't tell you what the possibility is - thought there are plenty of links in the above article.

Let me know if you have questions.
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Again there is good news and bad;
Once it mutates into a form that is human-human transmittable, its ultra-high mortality rate may be its own limiter. From what I've read, most people die, very quickly after becoming affected. This would keep the disease somewhat confined and allow the health depts to possibly keep it under manageable control. But if it mutates again, this time to something with, say, a 30% mortality rate. If that happened it could be the end of a beautiful thing, to quote someone. From what I've also read, that is the reason fun things like ebola have not gone too far killing people. There just isn't time to infect people before you yourself are dead.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. That's not quite right - it's not that lethal
The calculated case mortality rate is currently 56%:
http://www.who.int/csr/don/2006_06_30/en/index.html

But it's almost certainly quite a bit lower than that because mild cases would be much less likely to be reported than severe cases.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thank you, no questions. You've said enough that I understand
it's not somethiing to panic over. But to be aware of nonetheless.

We're well-prepared for hurricanes, even though they're rare in New England, and that preparedness should be enough for the Bird Flu.

Thanks again.

Redstone
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. That's the right attitude
:thumbsup:
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deep & Penetrating questions and polls are avoided because
Edited on Fri Jun-30-06 12:31 PM by genie_weenie
to the American People's credit when they are informed about the true costs of War the recoil from it and DO NOT support killing.

Which is why the Government must massage the information going out to the People. Heaven forbid the people know the truth for the consequences would be dire to those who profit from death & destruction.

Edit: Excellent analysis and Good Post! K&R.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3.  Yes indeed, this is part and parcel of the corporate media's efforts to
keep us in the dark.

But I don't see why the Democratic Party can't sponsor some polls like that, and then publicize the results.
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well, the cynic in me
has little faith in *Most* politicians, Dems included.

I can only hope a non-War candidate has a chance in '08...
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. That's why anybody with a brain ignores polls, for the most part.
Especially the "self-slected" ones like the ones that TV networks run.

Redstone
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. But polls can be very informative if done right
They can tell us a good deal about what our fellow citizens are thinking and what's important to them, and even why those things are important to them. They can be used as a tool to assist in government, and of course they can be used to assist in running a campaign.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Prescient quote from Umberto Eco regarding just such superficial polls:
Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view—one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.

- from the essay 'Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt', 1995
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. ... trapped on the holodeck...
with a gang of brainwashed, well dressed crude zombies that repeat their
brainwashing at every corner, informing every rock and stone in creation
of their idiocy, and where is the switch to turn off the insane projection?

Are we insane? Is insanity a thing in insane people? Are we degenerate or
just degenerate and insane, and is there a moral difference?

Where is the holodeck switch, the door's around here somewhere...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. That reminds me of Bush Co and our Corporate Media
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Jesterstear Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. Love how they juggle numbers
I remember before the invasion of Iraq, a poll was done asking if people believed we should invade or not. About a third of them said yes. The majority said yes, but only if we could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Iraq had WMD's and/or was involved with 9/11. The media ignored the quallifiers and simply reported it as "a vast majority of Americans favor invading Iraq." While technically not a lie, it was a severe misrepresentation of the results.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Yeah - Actually it WAS technically a lie
The vast majority of Americans did NOT favor invading Iraq - they only favored it IF it could be shown that they provided a threat to us. That was not only never proven, but the good majority of available evidence suggested otherwise.
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Jesterstear Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. That's the fun thing about polls
You set up the questions so that no matter how people answer, you'll get the results you want or at least the results you can spin into what you want.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. We just have to be attentive to what they're doing and call them on it.
YOU were able to figure it out and ascertain how the media was spinning the polls to make it seem like they were saying something that they were in fact not saying. We don't have to accept their spin. Unfortunately, too many Americans do -- but I sense that things are changing.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here's another good example, but simpler
A recent ABC News/Washington Post poll indicated that 59% of Americans believe that our country is safter from terrorism than it was before September 11th, 2001.

Well duh! How far before September 11 the pollsters had in mind is not specified in the poll question. I don't doubt that a lot of people think September 10th when they see a poll question like that. That's the first thing that I thought of. In retrospect, it's a no-brainer to realize that our country is safer today than it was on September 10th. Hell, even I think we're safer today than we were on September 10, 2001.

Pundits use the answer to that question to claim what a great job Bush is doing in protecting us from terrorism. A better question to get at the issue of how people see their safety in relationship to their leadership would be "Overall, do you feel that the United States was safer from terrorism during the Clinton administration or during the George W. Bush administration?"
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