What Percentage of the American Poor have Earned their Status

[bryant69]

I know this seems like a hard hearted way to pose this question, but did it this way to balance my other post http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1509093&mesg_id=1509093

One more to go.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[niyad]

1. this sounds like something a freeper would post. why????

[Ishoutandscream2]

3. I really thought the same thing

"earned" being poor. Sounds like one of their talking points.

[bryant69]

6. I apologize

Perhaps I should have phrased it another way all the way around.

Deserve?

Or perhaps I should ask you - how would you ask this question? You know what I'm getting at. Or is it not an appropriate question?

[Ishoutandscream2]

8. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that you were a Republican

or insensitive. I just grew up poor being raised by a single mother in the 70's. I used to wake up in the middle of the night hearing her silently sob in the kitchen. I guess "earn" brought back some bad memories of people telling my mom that her work "wasn't meant to earn a lot of money." Women, especially single women, were still being treated like shit then.

Please, don't think I was upset with you.

[niyad]

9. no, I don't think it's an appropriate question--regardless of your

intentions (which we know to be honourable) the very fact that such a concept is out there simply reinforces the rw's in their belief that poverty is somehow "earned" or a "choice" or even punishment by their nasty deity for not being pure enough, or some such drivel.

[bryant69]

12. Can people make choices that lead to poverty?

Or is poverty completely external to the choices a person might make?

[datasuspect]

23. do you mean

someone who comes from wealth (or relative wealth) - who was raised in a social network and family structure that ensures success, i.e., they aren't members of a marginalized social group; their family has money, the person has never had to worry about necessities or first level needs (food, clothing, shelter), lived in a zip code where the public schools (or better than that, their families had enough money to provide private educations) put a larger percentage of students into a college track, lived in a family with at least 3 generations of college graduates, had familial and social support networks wherein they would not have to compete as strenuously for entry-level positions in more or less "prestige" type working environments?

okay, you have someone like this, and they end up poor?

do they "earn" their poverty?

hmmm. i think in that type of situation, they probably choose poverty.

but for the rest of us, the marginalized and the constituents of the lower social classes, those who grew up in poverty, were the first generation to graduate from high school, had limited prospects, had little reinforcement or training in the traits that "ensure" success in higher social strata, were fast-tracked into "vo-tech" or military rather than college, those who live in ghettoes . . .

do they earn their poverty?

no, they are victims of the american social hierarchy, often recipients of institionalized racism, and largely ignored.


some of us didn't land on plymouth rock, it landed on us.

[oscar111]

24. should be IMPOSSIBLE to be poor

i value human life. The floor should allow a life free of suffering while whatever flaws a person may have , are worked at getting corrected.

A few uncurable slobs may remain, but they are far less a drain than the gobblers at the top now. Who crush to rob.

[SmokingJacket]

26. How often does a person from a wealthy family, no matter how

foolish, end up poor? I've only seen that happen to the mentally ill, who are rejected by their rich families.

The day I see the same number of people from wealthy families and backgrounds standing in line at a food bank as there are people whose parents are poor will I believe that poverty is largely a result of "bad decisions."

[WI_DEM]

2. I don't think most people want to live in poverty and most people

would love to be lifted out of it, of course, many people don't have the opportunities to do so.

[aikoaiko]

4. Define earned.

Do you mean average dictionary definition: dictionary.reference.com

earn1
tr.v. earned, earn·ing, earns

1. To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work: earned money by mowing lawns.
2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action: She earned a reputation as a hard worker.
3. To yield as return or profit: a savings account that earns interest on deposited funds.

[bryant69]

5. Probably number 2

Bryant

[aikoaiko]

21. Ok then, I would say about half.

earned: To acquire due to effort or action.

I am going to assume we are talking about adults who have had their chances to make important life decisions. CHildren are stuck with the parents who bore them and don't earn their families' SES.

We know that things like IQ and impusle control can certainly lead people to make bad decisions. IQ in fact is a better predictor of whether or not you'll graduate wind up in poverty than family of origins SES as well as a better predictor of graduating high school and college, and being arrested or staying out of prison.

Of course sometimes people can make good decisions but bad things happen. Medical bills, layoffs, injuries, diseases, that can devestate a person.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. I'm curious about the 2 people who voted "vast majority."

Care to enlighten us on your reasoning? We're curious.

[oscar111]

10. Forced Poverty a result of Job Shortage, or cuts to aid to OWS old, weak,

OWS.. old, weak and sick.

see sig for more on Job Shortage, and ways to make it zero.

poverty is artificial, a forced creation.

[SoCalDem]

11. Indirectly, probably most of them..although they did not plan it

or want it..

Think about it,.

Everyone in the country simply cannot be "middle class or upper class".. Our current system DEMANDS that a certain percentage must be poor.. Only poor people will willingly accept "shit-wages for a shit-job"..

There are more and more low paid jobs and more on the way as more people slide down that rungless ladder they find themselves on.

Every child has high aspirations for themselves, no matter how poor they are, but I maintain that by the time they reach high school, most of the ones who come from poor families get discouraged and figure out that it's going to be VERY hard to escape the family poverty they grew up around.. Some will muster every ounce of initiative they have and find a way to claw their way out...but I suspect that a large percentage of them give up and take up habits that sabotage them.

A kid who drops out at 16 is unlikely to ever get very far in life..If he/she comes from a poor family is very possible that his/her parents had little education and probably did not have a positive effect on their kid's education.

Who you are at 16 will pretty much determine who you will be your whole life.

I know there are stories about people who totally changed their lives, and escaped poverty, but if you take a tour through a poor section of just about any town, you will see common denominators in the poor communities..

1. dropping out of high school
2. early parenthood
3. alcohol/drug use
4. poor job attendance
5. lousy jobs
6. substandard housing
7. poor hygiene


all these things are related.... Undiagnosed/treated depression feeds on poverty and can be a lifelong thing..

Do they "deserve it"...no... but the lifestyle they are born into, can dictate what they become...without them even understanding why..

For all the protestations, the government is in no hurry to change things because there will always be a need for an "underclass" to do the things that need doing, but for which the wages will always be small..

The dirty littel secret about America is that "by hard work, you can achieve anything".. SOME may...but most won't.

Republicans base their whole economic model around this.. This is how they get their wacky tax cuts passed all the time. People who will never have more than a pot to piss in, actually think that "someday they will be rich"...

[Freedom_Aflaim]

13. Ultimately, Most of them

Frankly I don't like that answer but I think its the reality.

Ultimately, everyone is responsible for themselves. I stress the word ultimately.

Most of the poor, are there because of circumstances and because they don't have the skills to rise out of poverty. Most don't have the skills because they were never taught them, In a much smaller nimber of cases, they refused to learn them.

There is no simply answer why some people are poor. There are as many reasons as their are poor people.

While I hold to the belief that everyone is ultimately responsible for themselves, that does NOT preclude social programs, education programs, religious charity programs, family help and many many other efforts.

The fact is that society has a duty to help the poor. We have a duty to clothe, house, educate and feed them. We also have an obligation to give to our fellow man, our fellow poor the tools to eventually rise out of poverty.

However, when all else fails and sadly, increasingly it does, if society doesnt do its duty, then eventually it comes to the individual.

[oscar111]

25. "respn'ble for themselves".. so pressures never affect your own choices?

choices?

and lack of opportunity has no effect either?

Ah, here is that ignore button. "press"

[devilgrrl]

14. People are poor because they're lazy...

where have you been? :sarcasm:

[bryant69]

15. Kick

To get more votes

[Tsiyu]

16. I'm not answering the poll because I honestly don't know

But social policy is the primary cause of poverty if you want my opinion.


Do you know that most in poverty are women and young children? Why are mothers and their children not supported by our society? Why is child suppport so difficult to collect? Why have we as a nation just neglected to remember things like daycare, education and healthcare for the smallest and most vulnerable in our society?

Children and the parents who raise them have needed the same things for centuries. Are we too stupid to figure it out after all this time? YES.

Nevertheless, we remember that Cheney needs to make a big profit this year, because the needs of greedy, important Caucasian men have never changed in our vision of things. And we remember that we need stadiums and malls and golf courses. These priorities have not slipped in society's mind.

Elderly are moving up in the ranks lately, due to high drug, food, and fuel costs. Once again, old people and their needs have not changed so much in all the years. But we've got wars to wage and oil to pump and many many corporations and industries that DESPERATELY need the government's help to survive - so that CEO Joe Bigstuff can make a whole lot of money in the shortest possible time, with an incredible pension and benefits package to boot.


Trickle-down, Voodoo economics is the toxin that causes poverty.

These are the ideas the Trickle-down Voodoo Doctors inculcate into the young:

* Making mega money mega fast is spiritually satisfying and proof of superiority.

* Having plenty of leisure time, while making a great deal of money, is the reward for "hard work."

* When you make a lot of money, you are above the law.

* Education is secondary. Ruthless business practices are primary.

* You owe no one - not society, not the world, not even your own kids and grandkids.

* Every man for himself. And screw women and children and old people.


Now, what kind of kids do we hope to turn out in this society?

[Asgaya Dihi]

17. Finally, someone is onto it.

Yes, most people in poverty are women and young children, and most are minority. There's another part of the puzzle we can add to that and it all starts to make more sense. Take a look at the following numbers and put it together with the other two facts, imagine the real world impact of this on those population groups. www.prisonsucks.com

This I think is the main driving force behind poverty today. That's not the number who have been in and out already, just those in custody today. Those released don't have a great chance either with the records and loss of benefits.

[BringEmOn]

18. Self delete

[Odin2005]

19. Very few.

This whole "the poor are lazy" thing is purely the result of the atomistic, hyper-individualistic view of society that originated in the Enlightenment mixing with Calvinist notions of the poor being poor because they are morally inferior. Most social problems are sicknesses of society that cause individuals to act the way they do (taking genetic influences into account of course). our current, fucked up society is not the result of some vast, right-wing conspiracy, but the result of the elites taking advantage of our degenerating, increasingly naccissisic society that resulted from consumerism.

[bryant69]

20. kick

Would like to get 60 votes.

[Yollam]

22. I put some, but the answer I prefer is...

"You can't criticize someone without walking a mile in their shoes."

[Sammy Pepys]

27. About half

Being poor need not be a permanent condition and I think most folks out there flirt with it at some point in their life, if not live it in totality. I've had plenty of friends who did the "poor grad student" thing for two years, living on little more than $800 a month, if that. I think about half of those that can be considered "poor" right now fall into that category.

The other half are those who have earned or chosen their status. I say chosen because there are simply people out there who choose to live a certain way. My cousin lives in a commune and by numbers and appearances would be considered exceptionally poor. But he's chosen that life, and has no problem with it.